honestly.. some of the comments and such I've seen with such a "legal" flavor.. if I'm not mistaken, this is my take on it..
the originator seems to be some kind of "sleeper" spy or something.. put in cold storage by herr vicster in the event that someday, some victim might have the "audacity" to break open his lock-box, to bring CONSEQUENCES (grilling for every documentation for every grisley detail) for opening said lock box with accusations that the person is just overstating the situation, or mistaken, or just plain lying..
but I could be wrong. I have a pretty vivid imagination..
it could be just as simple as one holds a warehouse of the now dead adulterous ravenous pig's materials, and can't sell them until the heat's off..
then again, I could be wrong. But these are the only two scenarios that make any real sense to me at the time..
Ham! do you think he was literally frozen... like cryogenically preserved... then thawed out to infiltrate GS and carry out his program to derail every thread with anti-vpw flavor? it could be a movie, you know... the avenging White Dove, defender of Truth, fights to the death with the rag tag mutant colony at GSC. naturally he'd have to appear in the movie in a white body suit and big feathery wings, and fight us all with swords. I'm a potato so I don't expect to fare well, but squirrels are really quick, we have a wolf, and yoda has the force.
Have you ever been to our front page under About Us?
GreaseSpot Cafe is a gathering place, bringing together people and information. We welcome all who have an interest in The Way International, including former followers, current followers, and those who may have friends or family members who are involved. Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
I put in bold the mission. Nothing has changed. Take the time to read the whole thing. Harassing behaviour is the root reason for what I said to White Dove. He, as well as you, have done your best to derail issues of importance. For some reason, you think we have to "try" every issue in a court of law, well we don't. You are welcome to your opinion here, and I will defend that right and have, you know that! But by the same token, I have removed things that you have posted that were inappropriate. We have rules to keep things civil.
My offer to White Dove was an honest one. I've made the same offer to Mike. I welcome different opinions, but not at the cost of the site and it's mission. There are some threads that should be episodes of Law & Order with the legal wrangling. This is a discussion site, pure and simple. It's focus is "Telling the Other side of the story" Always was, nothing changed.
I think that if you want to have a "pro-TWI" discussion, then you or others should have one to promote your thoughts and feeling. Having a primary focus doesn't disallow other opinions. Discussion boards vary on focus. The ones that I enjoy the most are the ones with a specific focus.
I don't expect you or White Dove to agree with me, that's fine. But that doesn't give you the right to make this site suit your mission. When important topics that many want is derailed by a few, something has to be done.
My offer to White Dove was an honest one. I've made the same offer to Mike. I welcome different opinions, but not at the cost of the site and it's mission. There are some threads that should be episodes of Law & Order with the legal wrangling. This is a discussion site, pure and simple. It's focus is "Telling the Other side of the story" Always was, nothing changed.
I think that if you want to have a "pro-TWI" discussion, then you or others should have one to promote your thoughts and feeling. ....<snip>
Along with your offer for a "pro-TWI" discussion (or experience)..........may I suggest that Mike, or White Dove, or Oldies just simply ATTEND A TWI-SANCTIONED FELLOWSHIP NEAREST THEM..??
Or.........a "twi-light" meeting sponsored by CES/STIF, CFF, GEER, ETC.
Paw, I was hoping you would consider clarifying the forum rules by adding the part about the GS mission, so all posters know the boundary of content. It still seems like the pro-twi viewpoints are welcomed, but, not at the cost of the mission, whatever that means. Its vague, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse here. Thanks for your response.
Ham! do you think he was literally frozen... like cryogenically preserved... then thawed out to infiltrate GS and carry out his program to derail every thread with anti-vpw flavor? it could be a movie, you know... the avenging White Dove, defender of Truth, fights to the death with the rag tag mutant colony at GSC. naturally he'd have to appear in the movie in a white body suit and big feathery wings, and fight us all with swords. I'm a potato so I don't expect to fare well, but squirrels are really quick, we have a wolf, and yoda has the force.
actually.. that's just about the picture I've got in my head..
I tend to try to figure people out. I'll digest what they say for a while.. then as in this instance, only two possible scenarios explain it satisfactorily to me..
I am not going to "clarify" anything. It's pretty darn clear, as Wierwille used to say, "If you have ears to hear" and eyes to read and a mind to understand.
It still seems like the pro-twi viewpoints are welcomed, but, not at the cost of the mission, whatever that means. Its vague, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse here.
IMO......although the pro-twi viewpoints are welcome at GS and give perspective to the truism of ideals that many of us embraced for years, they do not begin to assuage the tsunami of abuse in following false teachers/teachings as life unfolds on one's journey.
The mission of GS is fixed on giving everyone a voice......not placating those who incessantly post their platform and beat the twi drum.
it's almost "funny" at first.. "amusing".. how "quaint".. then if they persist.. and show they are really SERIOUS about it all.. *well.. what are YOU doing to witness da greatness of da word da manogawd taught us..* or something.. then it's "troubling".. at least to me.
like the night of the living dead or something..
I wonder what *they* are doing with all of those old pfal materials and stuff they bought from geero.. probably five to seven bucks a shot.. as far as vic's old books are concerned..
probably trying to sell it in an internet bookstore.. with a name more appropriate for a cemetary..
Well it seems so many many times when presenting the *pro* twi side of things.... folks can`t seem to do it without a nasty little back hand to others.
one thing that really hurt me about that thread whitedove and oldies and whoever cares was that newlife posted something so personal and so horrible and it got lost. she's posted about 80 times here compared to my 18 million and was ignored. why would she ever want to talk about it if she has to submit a video or a sworn confession, etc., etc.
Can we vote to ban WhiteDove and Oldiesman from the forums as punishment? Many forum sites impose this upon people for a period of time like 30 days as administrative action.
Temp ban them for being bullies and continuously spewing the same BS attacking victims and acting like courtroom lawyers.
Maybe if you temp ban them that will communicate what are acceptable posts. Or maybe they'll get all huffy and leave. Either way great.
I believe the purview for banning, whether temp or perm, from this site is the admin of the site. I think this is as it should be and not up to a community vote. While I have no love for either of those mentioned below - I would not want it to be a community vote. Given the daily hassles that often surface here, if it was a community vote there'd be 20 nominations a day for banning. If you read many of the associated previous posts I think the community has already expressed its displeasure.
Can we vote to ban WhiteDove and Oldiesman from the forums as punishment? Many forum sites impose this upon people for a period of time like 30 days as administrative action.
I believe the purview for banning, whether temp or perm, from this site is the admin of the site. I think this is as it should be and not up to a community vote. While I have no love for either of those mentioned below - I would not want it to be a community vote. Given the daily hassles that often surface here, if it was a community vote there'd be 20 nominations a day for banning. If you read many of the associated previous posts I think the community has already expressed its displeasure.
I agree with this completely. I don't want to see this turn into an electronic version of a mob with pitchforks and torches. I think we should all defer to pawtucket on this, and he's shown good judgment in his reluctance to ban people in the past unless they do something really bad.
I disagree strongly with anyone that supports TWI or VPW even after the knowledge of how evil VPW and TWI were to so many of us. However, I think the worst thing that happened in this thread wasn't that someone supported TWI, because that happens in all sorts of other threads and doesn't rile people up as much. It was the personal attacks on a user who disclosed a personal story that caused them pain. Whether that is ban-worthy or not is not up to us, and there are other things that can be done (e.g. asking the offender to apologize) that don't require silencing anyone.
I guess the bottom line is that WhiteDove and oldiesman p!ss me off, without question. However, I would be uncomfortable banning them from this site and if such a vote were put in front of us all, I would abstain from voting.
I believe the purview for banning, whether temp or perm, from this site is the admin of the site. I think this is as it should be and not up to a community vote. While I have no love for either of those mentioned below - I would not want it to be a community vote. Given the daily hassles that often surface here, if it was a community vote there'd be 20 nominations a day for banning. If you read many of the associated previous posts I think the community has already expressed its displeasure.
Sure - I'm glad paw doesn't ban people quickly. I also agree that the normal squabbles that go on shouldn't be a cause to ban someone, or that community votes should be the method.
Attacking a victim, now, in my opinion is a different story. I had enough of people attacking victims and covering up their actions in TWI. I don't need that kind of thing having discussions and/or debates on a site that is the only place that allows the uncovering of the BS. Everybody is pretty much sick of the pseudo courtroom type of posturing going on with these two clowns which completely bypass the intent of any law which is to provide a level playing field, not to cover up witness testimony.
I mean, as much as it pains me to not provide a smoke screen for someone to peddle their old bootleg collections of VPW teachings and materials by keeping the VPW hype alive, I think I could live with that to get rid of some of the static. (OK, maybe it doesn't pain me that much). I'd just prefer that people's stories are allowed to be shared without the attacks.
It was the personal attacks on a user who disclosed a personal story that caused them pain. Whether that is ban-worthy or not is not up to us, and there are other things that can be done (e.g. asking the offender to apologize) that don't require silencing anyone.
I guess the bottom line is that WhiteDove and oldiesman p!ss me off, without question. However, I would be uncomfortable banning them from this site and if such a vote were put in front of us all, I would abstain from voting.
Yes, what bothers everyone is pretty universal. The problem with asking these two to apologize is it's never going to happen, along with them never stopping this type of activity. How long have we read this same type of drivel from these two? I mean one guy has a business interest to protect, and the other is probably a current TWI leader with a lot of time on their hands living off the ABS thinking they're 'protecting the ministry' by attacking victims.
The mods make the decisions to not allow someone to post. And I am one of them. Voting on it just seems wrong to me.
White Dove was not banned. I have to approve his posts before they go public.
Excathedra really brings up the heart of the matter. Someone sharing something that is painful and personal, and having them attacked by fellow posters is just wrong. Opinions are one thing, trying to play defense attorney for TWI on here is quite another. One thing that TWI instilled in people is this false sense of self-righteousness. Not even closely biblical, it is probably delusional. I can't and won't try to change people, people have to do that on their own. There is more than ample information here to make an educated decision on what you believe in relationship to TWI.
On the subject of banning. In the mission, "All are welcome here" that was and is true. It does NOT say "All are welcome to POST here" Certain individual want to make this a court of law, it is not that. Never will be. I just decided that enough is enough. White Dove was given many warnings. He wants this forum to be something that it is not. He knows that. My offer to let him have his own forum still stands.
The decisions made by the moderating team are not going to please everyone. I wish they could, but the reality is they won't.
They pull this shi+ cuz of Power And Control, it's the high, the rush of making others feel like dog crap so they can, themselves, feel NOT like dog crap.
It is, indeed, the schoolyard bully route and it's 4th grade behavior that only serves to make the bully's look like pu$$ies and weak men, period.
People like that hide behind their fear and insecurity and scare tactics, peeking out from time to time to see if a potential victim might be living their life happily and they can't have THAT, oh no.
They stick their faces into others' business to avoid their own.
They insult and injure cuz it primes their own pump of self defeat and sorrow.
The more they're fed, the more they feel full, but like an addict, it's short lived and they continue to look for the next high.
Take a good look at your own self and own the ability to recognize that no matter what they say or do or think, they're wrong and nothing they say or do or think can make them right.
It's not about TWI, it's not about words here, it's not about who did what to whom when.
It's about them thinking their shi+ doesn't smell, them understanding that nothing they can do or say will help but they just have to give it one more try. Then it works when their victim shows the hurt.
That's what they lust after, crave, fight for, desire. Give it to them and they have their victory.
You, me, we can fight and argue with them til at least we puke, but they're not gonna care, truly they don't care. They would bi+ch if you gave them a new rope to hang themselves, cuz it's orange instead of black or 2 inch diameter instead of 4; it won't happen.
They don't care. They don't.
Pawtucket set these forums up for a purpose that he's made massively clear, there is no misunderstanding or confusion about what the mission here is, there is no lack of clarity on what is and is not allowed to go on. It's so much more than fair and just and honest for those that have some sort of reading ability, hearing capacity or understanding.
We've been over that for ever and it's still the same, the few who refuse to understand that won't change it.
Keep saying "hey cut it out!" and they hear "hey, we like your abuse"
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Tzaia
A look at "Christmas Past."
Tzaia
Honestly, why do any of you give them any level of power over your life? What difference does it make what they say or think? Really? Do you not get that it's this caring about what others think that
Tzaia
I believe you are one that needn't put them on ignore, because you can hold your own and can beat them at their own game. I won't ignore them for the same reason you do. They remind me of where I was
Ham
honestly.. some of the comments and such I've seen with such a "legal" flavor.. if I'm not mistaken, this is my take on it..
the originator seems to be some kind of "sleeper" spy or something.. put in cold storage by herr vicster in the event that someday, some victim might have the "audacity" to break open his lock-box, to bring CONSEQUENCES (grilling for every documentation for every grisley detail) for opening said lock box with accusations that the person is just overstating the situation, or mistaken, or just plain lying..
but I could be wrong. I have a pretty vivid imagination..
it could be just as simple as one holds a warehouse of the now dead adulterous ravenous pig's materials, and can't sell them until the heat's off..
then again, I could be wrong. But these are the only two scenarios that make any real sense to me at the time..
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potato
Ham! do you think he was literally frozen... like cryogenically preserved... then thawed out to infiltrate GS and carry out his program to derail every thread with anti-vpw flavor? it could be a movie, you know... the avenging White Dove, defender of Truth, fights to the death with the rag tag mutant colony at GSC. naturally he'd have to appear in the movie in a white body suit and big feathery wings, and fight us all with swords. I'm a potato so I don't expect to fare well, but squirrels are really quick, we have a wolf, and yoda has the force.
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pawtucket
Oldies,
Have you ever been to our front page under About Us?
I put in bold the mission. Nothing has changed. Take the time to read the whole thing. Harassing behaviour is the root reason for what I said to White Dove. He, as well as you, have done your best to derail issues of importance. For some reason, you think we have to "try" every issue in a court of law, well we don't. You are welcome to your opinion here, and I will defend that right and have, you know that! But by the same token, I have removed things that you have posted that were inappropriate. We have rules to keep things civil.
My offer to White Dove was an honest one. I've made the same offer to Mike. I welcome different opinions, but not at the cost of the site and it's mission. There are some threads that should be episodes of Law & Order with the legal wrangling. This is a discussion site, pure and simple. It's focus is "Telling the Other side of the story" Always was, nothing changed.
I think that if you want to have a "pro-TWI" discussion, then you or others should have one to promote your thoughts and feeling. Having a primary focus doesn't disallow other opinions. Discussion boards vary on focus. The ones that I enjoy the most are the ones with a specific focus.
I don't expect you or White Dove to agree with me, that's fine. But that doesn't give you the right to make this site suit your mission. When important topics that many want is derailed by a few, something has to be done.
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skyrider
Along with your offer for a "pro-TWI" discussion (or experience)..........may I suggest that Mike, or White Dove, or Oldies just simply ATTEND A TWI-SANCTIONED FELLOWSHIP NEAREST THEM..??
Or.........a "twi-light" meeting sponsored by CES/STIF, CFF, GEER, ETC.
:)
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oldiesman
Paw, I was hoping you would consider clarifying the forum rules by adding the part about the GS mission, so all posters know the boundary of content. It still seems like the pro-twi viewpoints are welcomed, but, not at the cost of the mission, whatever that means. Its vague, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse here. Thanks for your response.
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waysider
Remember the old flip chart in session #12 that depicted "what it is" and "what it is not"?
GSC
What it is:
(Refer to front page.)
What it is not:
A platform for those who choose to brow-beat and intimidate.
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mstar1
<----------
Dont forget the bears
generally even tempered, pretty nasty when riled up
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Ham
actually.. that's just about the picture I've got in my head..
I tend to try to figure people out. I'll digest what they say for a while.. then as in this instance, only two possible scenarios explain it satisfactorily to me..
I wonder how many more twi "sleepers" there are..
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waysider
Why do some people feel compelled to so doggedly force their conclusions on others?
Here's something from Tolstoy that may offer some insight:
"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity
of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues,
which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven,
thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."
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pawtucket
Oldiesman,
I am not going to "clarify" anything. It's pretty darn clear, as Wierwille used to say, "If you have ears to hear" and eyes to read and a mind to understand.
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skyrider
IMO......although the pro-twi viewpoints are welcome at GS and give perspective to the truism of ideals that many of us embraced for years, they do not begin to assuage the tsunami of abuse in following false teachers/teachings as life unfolds on one's journey.
The mission of GS is fixed on giving everyone a voice......not placating those who incessantly post their platform and beat the twi drum.
<_<
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Ham
I've met some like that in real life.. honestly..
it's almost.. if not beyond, eerie..
almost like they've woken up from a slumber, that began in 1975 or so.. almost scary. Still living in "da way, it was.."
I don't know how to describe it.. "funny" or "troubling".. perhaps a mixture of the two..
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Ham
it's almost "funny" at first.. "amusing".. how "quaint".. then if they persist.. and show they are really SERIOUS about it all.. *well.. what are YOU doing to witness da greatness of da word da manogawd taught us..* or something.. then it's "troubling".. at least to me.
like the night of the living dead or something..
I wonder what *they* are doing with all of those old pfal materials and stuff they bought from geero.. probably five to seven bucks a shot.. as far as vic's old books are concerned..
probably trying to sell it in an internet bookstore.. with a name more appropriate for a cemetary..
sorry.. but it's probably true..
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rascal
Well it seems so many many times when presenting the *pro* twi side of things.... folks can`t seem to do it without a nasty little back hand to others.
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excathedra
one thing that really hurt me about that thread whitedove and oldies and whoever cares was that newlife posted something so personal and so horrible and it got lost. she's posted about 80 times here compared to my 18 million and was ignored. why would she ever want to talk about it if she has to submit a video or a sworn confession, etc., etc.
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rascal
Good catch Excathedra, thanks for the heads up. I hope newlife returns to read this. My apologies for being insensitive.
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chockfull
Can we vote to ban WhiteDove and Oldiesman from the forums as punishment? Many forum sites impose this upon people for a period of time like 30 days as administrative action.
Temp ban them for being bullies and continuously spewing the same BS attacking victims and acting like courtroom lawyers.
Maybe if you temp ban them that will communicate what are acceptable posts. Or maybe they'll get all huffy and leave. Either way great.
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RumRunner
I believe the purview for banning, whether temp or perm, from this site is the admin of the site. I think this is as it should be and not up to a community vote. While I have no love for either of those mentioned below - I would not want it to be a community vote. Given the daily hassles that often surface here, if it was a community vote there'd be 20 nominations a day for banning. If you read many of the associated previous posts I think the community has already expressed its displeasure.
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Mister P-Mosh
I agree with this completely. I don't want to see this turn into an electronic version of a mob with pitchforks and torches. I think we should all defer to pawtucket on this, and he's shown good judgment in his reluctance to ban people in the past unless they do something really bad.
I disagree strongly with anyone that supports TWI or VPW even after the knowledge of how evil VPW and TWI were to so many of us. However, I think the worst thing that happened in this thread wasn't that someone supported TWI, because that happens in all sorts of other threads and doesn't rile people up as much. It was the personal attacks on a user who disclosed a personal story that caused them pain. Whether that is ban-worthy or not is not up to us, and there are other things that can be done (e.g. asking the offender to apologize) that don't require silencing anyone.
I guess the bottom line is that WhiteDove and oldiesman p!ss me off, without question. However, I would be uncomfortable banning them from this site and if such a vote were put in front of us all, I would abstain from voting.
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chockfull
Sure - I'm glad paw doesn't ban people quickly. I also agree that the normal squabbles that go on shouldn't be a cause to ban someone, or that community votes should be the method.
Attacking a victim, now, in my opinion is a different story. I had enough of people attacking victims and covering up their actions in TWI. I don't need that kind of thing having discussions and/or debates on a site that is the only place that allows the uncovering of the BS. Everybody is pretty much sick of the pseudo courtroom type of posturing going on with these two clowns which completely bypass the intent of any law which is to provide a level playing field, not to cover up witness testimony.
I mean, as much as it pains me to not provide a smoke screen for someone to peddle their old bootleg collections of VPW teachings and materials by keeping the VPW hype alive, I think I could live with that to get rid of some of the static. (OK, maybe it doesn't pain me that much). I'd just prefer that people's stories are allowed to be shared without the attacks.
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chockfull
Yes, what bothers everyone is pretty universal. The problem with asking these two to apologize is it's never going to happen, along with them never stopping this type of activity. How long have we read this same type of drivel from these two? I mean one guy has a business interest to protect, and the other is probably a current TWI leader with a lot of time on their hands living off the ABS thinking they're 'protecting the ministry' by attacking victims.
What exactly do they add to these forums?
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Tzaia
A look at "Christmas Past."
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pawtucket
A couple of things.
The mods make the decisions to not allow someone to post. And I am one of them. Voting on it just seems wrong to me.
White Dove was not banned. I have to approve his posts before they go public.
Excathedra really brings up the heart of the matter. Someone sharing something that is painful and personal, and having them attacked by fellow posters is just wrong. Opinions are one thing, trying to play defense attorney for TWI on here is quite another. One thing that TWI instilled in people is this false sense of self-righteousness. Not even closely biblical, it is probably delusional. I can't and won't try to change people, people have to do that on their own. There is more than ample information here to make an educated decision on what you believe in relationship to TWI.
On the subject of banning. In the mission, "All are welcome here" that was and is true. It does NOT say "All are welcome to POST here" Certain individual want to make this a court of law, it is not that. Never will be. I just decided that enough is enough. White Dove was given many warnings. He wants this forum to be something that it is not. He knows that. My offer to let him have his own forum still stands.
The decisions made by the moderating team are not going to please everyone. I wish they could, but the reality is they won't.
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Shellon
They pull this shi+ cuz of Power And Control, it's the high, the rush of making others feel like dog crap so they can, themselves, feel NOT like dog crap.
It is, indeed, the schoolyard bully route and it's 4th grade behavior that only serves to make the bully's look like pu$$ies and weak men, period.
People like that hide behind their fear and insecurity and scare tactics, peeking out from time to time to see if a potential victim might be living their life happily and they can't have THAT, oh no.
They stick their faces into others' business to avoid their own.
They insult and injure cuz it primes their own pump of self defeat and sorrow.
The more they're fed, the more they feel full, but like an addict, it's short lived and they continue to look for the next high.
Take a good look at your own self and own the ability to recognize that no matter what they say or do or think, they're wrong and nothing they say or do or think can make them right.
It's not about TWI, it's not about words here, it's not about who did what to whom when.
It's about them thinking their shi+ doesn't smell, them understanding that nothing they can do or say will help but they just have to give it one more try. Then it works when their victim shows the hurt.
That's what they lust after, crave, fight for, desire. Give it to them and they have their victory.
You, me, we can fight and argue with them til at least we puke, but they're not gonna care, truly they don't care. They would bi+ch if you gave them a new rope to hang themselves, cuz it's orange instead of black or 2 inch diameter instead of 4; it won't happen.
They don't care. They don't.
Pawtucket set these forums up for a purpose that he's made massively clear, there is no misunderstanding or confusion about what the mission here is, there is no lack of clarity on what is and is not allowed to go on. It's so much more than fair and just and honest for those that have some sort of reading ability, hearing capacity or understanding.
We've been over that for ever and it's still the same, the few who refuse to understand that won't change it.
Keep saying "hey cut it out!" and they hear "hey, we like your abuse"
They do.
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