Muslims

[markomalley]

Well, as one who has lived in a Muslim country longer than pretty much anybody around these parts (3 years in Turkey...several months in other miscellaneous parts of the Muslim world), let me share with you the following:

It's up to the particular school of Islam that he or she follows.

That's basically all there is to it.

Frankly, the majority of Muslims I know are cultural Muslims. They get their boys circumcised, they will observe the Ramadan fast (at least in public), and will have their marriages blessed by an imam.

And that's it.

The pork thing is something that is cultural (their bodies are not used to processing pork and so they don't like it, even when in a country where it's widely available), not religious (most will try it). The women wear scarves where appropriate and bikinis where that is appropriate.

And then I have met a number that are of varying degrees of religiosity. Both in the Muslim world and in Europe / the States.

Frankly, I have met some who are VERY religious (i.e., they'll stop what they're doing to do their prayers...and they actually slaughter a sheep for Eid al Adha...and have done the Hajj multiple times) who are very nice folks and by all accounts quite holy (both in actions and in the fruit they manifest in their lives).

But I've met some who are exactly the opposite.

And anything in between.

I, for one (an outsider, mind you), think that the biggest problem nowadays with Islam is that there is no Caliphate. A Caliph has the same basic type of authority as a pope (or patriarch) in Christianity. He has the ultimate authority to say what their collection of scriptures (Quran, Hadith, Sunnah, etc.) actually say in regard to a particular issue. Since the abolition of the caliphate in 1924, there has, by apperances, been a huge amount of chaos. Competing imams will issue competing fatwas (any one of which may call on the whole Muslim world to support). There is no moderation and widely varying degrees of intellectual rigor applied to these judgements.

When you have a relatively uneducated base of followers in this situation, it's very likely to be abused. Not only in the third world, but in the developed world, as well.

Oh, and as to the content of the "sinfulness" of the Muslim who accompanied p-mosh -- when I lived in Turkey, there were a number of fancy western hotels (Hiltons, Marriotts, etc.) with casinos. You had to have a foreign passport to use a casino. Well, the vast, vast majority of patrons in those casinos were rich arabs from "conservative" Muslim societies. Particularly Libya, Saudi Arabia, and also Iran. There were interesting rumors around those visitors. But the only thing I can report from first-hand experience was in the casinos.

The point: there are hypocrites in multiple cultures and religious traditions (or non-traditions, as it were). Not saying anything about p-mosh's friend one way or the other -- as I don't pretend to know if he cultivated a public appearance of religiosity or not...but hypocrisy is not uncommon at all.

For what it's worth.

[Mister P-Mosh]

The point: there are hypocrites in multiple cultures and religious traditions (or non-traditions, as it were). Not saying anything about p-mosh's friend one way or the other -- as I don't pretend to know if he cultivated a public appearance of religiosity or not...but hypocrisy is not uncommon at all.

For what it's worth.

Good post. As far as my friend is concerned, he doesn't pretend to be super religious, he just doesn't let his dad know (his mom passed away a few years ago). I'm fine with that, because I don't tell my parents about my activities like that either. The only one I really have to get an ok from is my wife.

[Lifted Up]

Good post. As far as my friend is concerned, he doesn't pretend to be super religious, he just doesn't let his dad know (his mom passed away a few years ago). I'm fine with that, because I don't tell my parents about my activities like that either. The only one I really have to get an ok from is my wife.

I would be interested in his views on the matter I covered above. Although I am guessing from what you have posted about him, that if he does not believe that those who convert from Islam should be killed, he would not speak out publically against this idea because he doesn't seem to be one who speaks out on anything about his religion.

The reason I mention this again, is because this idea gets to the heart of our freedom of religion. If muslims do not have the freedom to decide that what they before subscribed to is now wrong in their life, then they don't really have the freedom to decide it is right either, if there is only the one choice they are allowed to make.

[Mister P-Mosh]

I would be interested in his views on the matter I covered above. Although I am guessing from what you have posted about him, that if he does not believe that those who convert from Islam should be killed, he would not speak out publically against this idea because he doesn't seem to be one who speaks out on anything about his religion.

The reason I mention this again, is because this idea gets to the heart of our freedom of religion. If muslims do not have the freedom to decide that what they before subscribed to is now wrong in their life, then they don't really have the freedom to decide it is right either, if there is only the one choice they are allowed to make.

I don't think that he believes people should be killed for anything other than things like murdering innocent people. We talk politics sometimes, and he's more of a live and let live type of guy.

I know other Muslims as well to varying degrees and I'm pretty sure none of them think people should be killed for leaving Islam any more than most modern Christians believe in witch hunts or the inquisition.

[Lifted Up]

I don't think that he believes people should be killed for anything other than things like murdering innocent people. We talk politics sometimes, and he's more of a live and let live type of guy.

I know other Muslims as well to varying degrees and I'm pretty sure none of them think people should be killed for leaving Islam any more than most modern Christians believe in witch hunts or the inquisition.

Thank you for your reply. I hope you are right. The statement I read about from so-called moderate Muslims may not be representative.

There are a sizable number of Muslims in the United States, right? Therefore, is it that hard to find a Muslim Cleric? (footnote; anyone is welcome to educate me on the Islamic cleric system). That might be more convincing; to me, at least. I have heard about a number of Muslims who feel they have reason to fear for their lives because they renounced Islam, and not just from so-called "Islamic extremists".

It boils down to this; if someone thinks I will go to hell for not believing in their god, let it be so. If someone thinks it is their job to send me there, then it seems they think their god is too weak to do the job. And if it is the official doctrine of a religion for its adherents to send me there if I believe in their god then change my mind, then they are telling me their god IS too weak...or false.

[oenophile]

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2009/rumi/

[Greek2me]

Greek2Me...Who are you to say that Muslims (or other adherents of a belief system that differs from your own) are misguided?

I didn't say that adherents of Islam (or any other belief system differing from mine) are misguided. I said that adherents of Islam that strap a bomb to their waste and blow up themselves (including as many *infidels*) or fly hijacked airliners into tall buildings are misguided.

Big difference, no?

Edited May 13, 2009 by Greek2me

[oenophile]

I didn't say that adherents of Islam (or any other belief system differing from mine) are misguided. I said that adherents of Islam that strap a bomb to their waste and blow up themselves (including as many *infidels*) or fly hijacked airliners into tall buildings are misguided.

Big difference, no?

No, actually not such a big difference. Mr. Pmosh simply asked you do you not believe that Muslims are human. You responded by the following:

Is that really what you got from what I said, or are you trying to get a rise? Of course they're humans, and yes, I see them as such. Misguided, of course, but humans nonetheless. You agree, don't you, that they are misguided?

You made no distinction between Muslims and terrorists at that time.

[Mister P-Mosh]

Thank you for your reply. I hope you are right. The statement I read about from so-called moderate Muslims may not be representative.

There are a sizable number of Muslims in the United States, right? Therefore, is it that hard to find a Muslim Cleric? (footnote; anyone is welcome to educate me on the Islamic cleric system). That might be more convincing; to me, at least. I have heard about a number of Muslims who feel they have reason to fear for their lives because they renounced Islam, and not just from so-called "Islamic extremists".

It boils down to this; if someone thinks I will go to hell for not believing in their god, let it be so. If someone thinks it is their job to send me there, then it seems they think their god is too weak to do the job. And if it is the official doctrine of a religion for its adherents to send me there if I believe in their god then change my mind, then they are telling me their god IS too weak...or false.

I used to work with a guy from Jordan who was of Palestinian descent, as well as a Lebanese guy from Africa. The Lebanese guy became an atheist, while the guy from Jordan had an arrangement where he could leave work early every Friday to go to church. He was pretty devout, while the other guy wasn't at all. They got along fine.

While this is just a single example, based on all the other people I know that are Muslim, I don't see any of them having a real problem. They may be disappointed if someone leaves their religion, but I don't think they would get murderous about it.

In my mind, the difference between true moderate muslims and the radicals is similar to moderates and radicals in any religion. You will probably never see someone driving a Lexus to a snakehandler church in the Appalachians, and you probably won't see many middle class muslims shouting for Jihad. The majority of radical religious extremists of any religion are going to be the poor, while a few spoiled rich people control them. In our country, for example, you can see extremely poor people turning to street gangs or cults like TWI or worse. The richer people maybe join up with the Earth Liberation Front or PETA. In many Muslim countries, you find that both of the classes listed below can actually work together in anti-Western groups. That doesn't mean they all join up with terrorist groups like al Qaeda, and I'm sure that some of them over there do nothing more than sit around and smoke up some hashish and complain about "the man." However, in extremely poor countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, you're going to see more backwards behavior because of their poverty.

That is a long way of getting to my point I guess, that in America, the majority of Muslims are going to be like anyone else because they are not suffering in poverty. They may not be rich (some are though) but they are generally ok, and when you are doing ok you aren't radical. You want to maintain the status quo.

[Greek2me]

You made no distinction between Muslims and terrorists at that time.

I see. You are correct. I thought it was understood. My bad.

[GarthP2000]

Soo, ... there _isn't_ a distinction between Muslims and terrorists? Now, as well as then?

Just looking to have you clarify for the record.

Edited May 14, 2009 by GarthP2000

[oenophile]

I think Greek has clarified his position, Garth. Confession is good for the soul.

[Greek2me]

C'mon, guys, really. Do I have to repeat myself? Re-read my posts, Garth. I've been very clear. Even the post questioned by Oenophile _to my mind_ was clear when I wrote it....hence the clarification that I didn't make the distinction in the previous post because I really did think it was understood in context.

Now, if that's not a satisfactory answer for you, or you want to ascribe attitudes and/or beliefs to me that don't, in fact, belong to me... go for it.

[GarthP2000]

Hey! Nice imitation of Nancy Pelosi ya got going there!

(I'll let you figure that one out. ;) )

[Greek2me]

Hey! Nice imitation of Nancy Pelosi ya got going there!

Why, thank you!

I think, no, wait a minute I don't think. I was told to think but not at the time that I thought it.... it was six months later and it wasn't about what to think it was that I thought I didn't think that way. Clear? At any rate, someone else thought it and then lied to me about it so it wasn't my thought it was theirs so I'm still cool, got it?

... knew you would.

Actually, Garth, comparing anyone to that woman is a low blow... even coming form someone with your sterling reputation. But then, I think you already knew that.

[Lifted Up]

While this is just a single example, based on all the other people I know that are Muslim, I don't see any of them having a real problem. They may be disappointed if someone leaves their religion, but I don't think they would get murderous about it.

In my mind, the difference between true moderate muslims and the radicals is similar to moderates and radicals in any religion.

Perhaps. My point or question is that, I can think of quite a few examples of Christrians denouncing publically who they see as Christian extremists (right-wing, left-wing, albatross-wing, or whatever). I have not seen or heard of Muslims publically doing the same. But I would be glad to learn that this happens and that I have missed it.

[Mister P-Mosh]

Perhaps. My point or question is that, I can think of quite a few examples of Christrians denouncing publically who they see as Christian extremists (right-wing, left-wing, albatross-wing, or whatever). I have not seen or heard of Muslims publically doing the same. But I would be glad to learn that this happens and that I have missed it.

I guess the follow up question would be, where have you heard anything publicly stated by Muslims? If the answer is "the media", it follows the same problems anything else does. They don't cover good things, only bad. So if one person says, "Death to America!" that will make the news. If 5,000 Muslims say, "We don't agree with that guy. We like America." the media would never cover it because it is the status quo.

[Lifted Up]

I guess the follow up question would be, where have you heard anything publicly stated by Muslims? If the answer is "the media", it follows the same problems anything else does. They don't cover good things, only bad. So if one person says, "Death to America!" that will make the news. If 5,000 Muslims say, "We don't agree with that guy. We like America." the media would never cover it because it is the status quo.

five'll get you ten tha Fox News would make a big deal about it!