Well I think I stated my views on bigotry in the "Mexico" thread - I'll just project similar thoughts over to this thread. I submit though that there are a few differences between ethnicity and religion. Ethnicity just is - you are born Mexican? Then you are Mexican all your life and it has nothing to do with how you behave. Religion (or spiritual beliefs if you prefer) are a choice. The depth of conviction to that belief is also a choice. But as most of us have experienced in TWI - devout followers of ANY religion can (note "can" not "do") get pretty dangerous pretty quickly. Clearly, by your description of the evening, your friend is not a devout follower of Islam LOLOL.
Religion (or spiritual beliefs if you prefer) are a choice.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt...---For me it was, I (foolishly) at one time chose TWI, others seem content to stay in the spiritual tradition where they were born. For some it seems to be an inheritance of who they are and no real decision is ever reached one way or the other..Whether its Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Jewish or any of the jillion forms of Islam, a huge slice of humanity seems content to carry on the spiritual traditions of their families, be 'good' people and let it go at that.
I dont know all that many Muslims but the ones that I do are all decent people. To me it seems very unbalanced that a billion person religion would be judged entirely on the actions of a sub sub sub sub group that numbers maybe 2000
The only issue I'd have with Muslims at all is that, like any other garden-variety religious sect, they give over at least a portion of their allegiance to unproveable, unarguable, -often nonsensical- superstitions.
Anytime anybody adheres to tenets simply because their religion says so, somewhere down the road serious "stuff" is gonna hit the fan. Be it denial of modern medical care (a la Christian Science and JWs and others), or riding off to cleanse the Holy Lands from the heathen hordes (a practice I would have hoped died out in the Middle Ages, but...), or all sorts of depraved rites and practices pertaining to sex, food, entertainment (or denial thereof), or the adorable desire to blow oneself to Kingdom Come (and the ensuing orgy) and taking as many infidels with as possible, it all results from the abandonment of reason in exchange for superstitious pablum.
I can't think of anything more UNholy than religion, no matter the brand...
perhaps der victoid was correct in quoting whomever he stole the saying that "all religion is man-made" from..........but, really, is not ALL RELIGION man-made?........as are all the fringe elements of all religions, which all seem to espouse violence against any and all who disagree with them?.......i know........all religions claim unique god-breathed or ordained beginnings.........miraculous events, lives, or "thoughts" which distinguish them as being "the one, true.......(fill-in-the-blank)?..........just asking............
my personal experiences with devout muslims have been no more threatening or enlightening than have my personal experiences with devout catholics, evangelical/protestant christians, buddhists, sikhs, bahais, hindus, wiccans, rastafarians, jews, atheists, et al...........i find all sincerely religious folks, regardless of their chosen faiths, to be gentle, kind, and caring. it's the business of their religions that taints their theology............again though........man-made............peace.
I actually worked with a Muslim physician my last couple of years as a full time employee. He was a resident, devout, kind, and charitable. He was horrible at dictation when he came there, but we worked on it and he was passable when I retired.
Now see, that's the point - there are all kinds of different thoughts and beliefs in every religion, at least the ones I know about. I never asked my physician friend about what branch/denomination/what have you he espoused. I just saw by his actions that he tried very hard to be kind and charitable. Someone once mentioned to me they wished they were as good a Christian as he was a Muslim.
are they all the same ---hmm -- are Christians and Jews and atheists, Buddhists, Baha'i and Hindus all the same ?? really
I think so, they may have different religious methods but the end result is about the same.People are who they are --- many are content to raise families, be good neighbors, please the deity of their choice and do what they perceive as some good works.
Some are sunday or religious holiday believers only, some are more committed, some are fanatics, some inherited it through their families, some in each group are dangerous wackos, some have to be convinced that they are right at all costs.
I would guess that breaking it down that different categories the percentages are about the same across all the different religions.
For every bin Laden there is a Timothy MacVeigh,
and for every Mother Theresa there is a Mahatma Gandhi.
For every crazy preacher they have we have one too..that goes for good ones too
There are billions of people between the extremes who will never be revered as saints or reviled as monsters but are decent honest people no matter what religious label they carry
I'm curious... If I related my 'friend who is a muslim story' and showed completely different conclusions... would I be awarded the seeming authority Pmosh claims (albeit not overtly) in his 'Islam is a religion of peace' conclusion. (ie, after all they're just humans and really no different from us)
Perhaps the following article (speech) -- by someone with a little more experience and credibility than just a few beers combined with lustful acts and seemingly questionable table fare -- might shed some light for those who care to see the reality of ISLAM as a whole... not muslims as the flawed individuals they - along with everyone else - are.
It's like the blind men and the elephant. If you're at the tail, you'd describe the elephant one way, and if you're by the tusk, you'd describe it differently. You have to stand back and view the whole elephant to get the true picture.
Sure, there are all different brands of Islam, and different people express their religion in the way that is comfortable to them. I always wanna know: are they better for it? more loving? kinder?
Muslim in my area means African-American, because we have a large group of Somali immigrants here who practice Islam. So the dress is different, the language is different, the culture is different than you might think of as Muslim. What most of us don't see is how different some of the subgroups within the population are. There are refugees and immigrants, educated and not, Kenyans and other African nations, and different types of Islam.
I think it is a human tendency to try to lump people into categories...
I'm curious... If I related my 'friend who is a muslim story' and showed completely different conclusions... would I be awarded the seeming authority Pmosh claims (albeit not overtly) in his 'Islam is a religion of peace' conclusion. (ie, after all they're just humans and really no different from us)
So you feel that Muslims are not humans?
Perhaps the following article (speech) -- by someone with a little more experience and credibility than just a few beers combined with lustful acts and seemingly questionable table fare -- might shed some light for those who care to see the reality of ISLAM as a whole... not muslims as the flawed individuals they - along with everyone else - are.
I know it's difficult for you, but be honest -- Freerepublic has no credibility outside of the extreme right-wing politically, and anyone can post there, so there's no reason to believe someone there is an expert in anything.
I also don't pay attention to neo-nazi politicians who are so well known for being full of hatred that they can't even get a visa to visit the U.K. anymore.
In addition to that, I know that you can't name a single religion that hasn't been used to hurt people. Christianity is just as guilty as any other, if not moreso. I personally am opposed to religion overall, but tolerate it as some people seem to need it to feel better about their lives.
Of course, you can come here and try to troll all you want, but you posting that filth isn't going to override my opinion of my friends. I'm as against the Taliban and al Qaeda as anyone and hope that they cease to exist. I'm just smart enough to not lump all Muslims in that group.
I know it's difficult for you, but be honest -- Freerepublic has no credibility outside of the extreme right-wing politically, and anyone can post there, so there's no reason to believe someone there is an expert in anything.
I also don't pay attention to neo-nazi politicians who are so well known for being full of hatred that they can't even get a visa to visit the U.K. anymore.
In addition to that, I know that you can't name a single religion that hasn't been used to hurt people. Christianity is just as guilty as any other, if not moreso. I personally am opposed to religion overall, but tolerate it as some people seem to need it to feel better about their lives.
Of course, you can come here and try to troll all you want, but you posting that filth isn't going to override my opinion of my friends. I'm as against the Taliban and al Qaeda as anyone and hope that they cease to exist. I'm just smart enough to not lump all Muslims in that group.
by someone with a little more experience and credibility
OK---you're going for 'experience and credibility'.....lets try this one......The President of The United States (remember him?) gave a speech yesterday in Ankara , Turkey
The United States is not, and will never be, at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical, not just in rolling back the violent ideologies that people of all faiths reject, but also to strengthen opportunity for all people. I also want to be clear that America's relationship with the Muslim community, the Muslim world, cannot and will not just be based upon opposition to terrorism.
Wow, sorry I didn't get to this yesterday, but I was replacing my mother board (*&^%$$#&*^%!@#) (gotta love built in obsolescence... but that's another thread)
Pmosh,
So you feel that Muslims are not humans?
Is that really what you got from what I said, or are you trying to get a rise? Of course they're humans, and yes, I see them as such. Misguided, of course, but humans nonetheless. You agree, don't you, that they are misguided?
I personally am opposed to religion overall, but tolerate it as some people seem to need it to feel better about their lives.
You certainly have the luxury (now) to 'tolerate' religion. But what happens when that religion turns out to not 'tolerate' you? You know, kinda like the Jews that tolerated the Nazi's until... whoops too late.
Yes, extreme is my example, however, given the fact that it has happened before only emphasizes its veracity.
I'm as against the Taliban and al Qaeda as anyone and hope that they cease to exist. I'm just smart enough to not lump all Muslims in that group.
I am too. It's not individuals that are the problem, it's ISLAM. That was the point of my post. But since I posted a link from a site that is 'right wing' it's automatically dismissed as not being worthy of being read or simply ignoring 'the source'.
The source, btw, is a democratically elected member of parliament in the Netherlands -- who happens to compare the Koran with Hitler's Mein Kampf -- so I guess that blows your neo-nazi claim, eh? In fact, if you compared your background and his, I'm sure you'd find some striking similarities.
I suppose if I had posted the speech (btw, did you read the speeech, right?) from this site (i didn't like the picture at the top) or this site ( i didn't want to bring another religion into the mix but i did like the comment at the top about replacing the word Europe with India and getting pretty much the same thing) or this site (you'll probably like this one, but I think it's too commercial) or this one (because we are not Romanians) or this one (i didn't like the font type and the sub title to the site was too much -- although there are some good (and bad) quotes along the side -- Chesterton sure sounds like he was a wise man) or this one (i didn't like the green moon and star or the name for that matter) and then I came to the site i did post the link from which was so, seemingly, dismissed. So now you have a choice :)
I also don't pay attention to neo-nazi politicians who are so well known for being full of hatred that they can't even get a visa to visit the U.K. anymore.
You're smarter than this, right? At least, I thought you were. The Netherlands and the UK are both in the EU. They don't need visas anymore. It's kinda like going from Indiana to Illinois. Open borders for Eu citizens.
Of course, you can come here and try to troll all you want, but you posting that filth isn't going to override my opinion of my friends.
I don't consider the speech I posted, nor any of my comments to be 'filth'. Can you enlighten me as to what, exactly, it is that was posted and so 'filthy'?
I wouldn't dream of trying to override your opinion of your friends. I do, however, question your somewhat naive and limited conclusions based on 'a night out with the boys'.
Mstar,
OK---you're going for 'experience and credibility'.....lets try this one......The President of The United States (remember him?) gave a speech yesterday in Ankara , Turkey
Experience and credibility compared to Pmosh... I think you understood that... but since you bring the POTUS into the mix I think the Dutch member of parliament trumps him hands down -- in the credibility and experience department -- concerning said issue. I don't think a few years in his childhood beats the steady increase of Islaminisation that Wilders has seen and felt in his homeland.
Sure, you'll probably disagree, but, quite frankly, you'd be wrong.
Harvard law school and the Chicago 'burbs not to mention his stint as a law professor, plus the Illinois State House and the US Senate hardly gives the O'ster experience and credibility in dealing with this issue. None of the places mentioned (stops along Obama's career path?) appear to me to be hotbeds of controversial Islamic activity.
Wilders, on the other hand, has seen an explosive increase in Muslims in his country, not to mention Europe (Paris Islamic riots?) and the effects this increase has caused first hand.
Concerning the President's quote... I agree with him. The United States isn't at war with Islam. Islam, all claims to the contrary notwithstanding, appears to be at war with the US.
Too many links to review this early in the morning-Maybe I'll get to it when I have more time.
The bottom line seems to be an intense fear of anyone that is different. That's something that I cant ever agree with or understand.
My ancestors were ostracized in this country in the 1630's because they were Quakers (o the horrors). Every wave of immigrants since then has signalled the end of the country in one way or another to the alarmists--the Irish, the Jews, the Asians, etc.. --The alarm is now its focussed on Mexicans and Central Americans
Somehow the country has always adjusted, moved past its prejudices, been OK and the vast majority of immigrants have assimilated and become good citizens and neighbors. Its always been a melting pot here and probably always will be..I personally like it that way. I live in an area that is multicultural and wouldnt want it any other way...I really cant understand what all the fear is about
The bottom line seems to be an intense fear of anyone that is different. That's something that I cant ever agree with or understand.
I agree with you... but I think that in this case the difference is not only the 'difference' of the people we are talking about, but the kind of difference they bring.
Let's face it.
Mexicans an Central Americans don't fly airplanes into the twin towers screaming 'God is great.' Nor do they set off bombs in subways or night clubs in far away lands in the name of their God because of a religious or ideological belief. Nor do they attack tourists because they are infidels that must be eliminated. And I can't remember the last time a Mexican or someone from Central America attacked an American Embassy with high explosives or rocket launchers.
The alarm is now its focused on Mexicans and Central Americans. Somehow the country has always adjusted, moved past its prejudices, been OK and the vast majority of immigrants have assimilated and become good citizens and neighbors. Its always been a melting pot here and probably always will be..I personally like it that way. I live in an area that is multicultural and wouldn't want it any other way...I really cant understand what all the fear is about.
Again, I agree, but we are not talking about the USA. We're talking about Europe.
In short, differences are great. I'm different from almost all of those around me. I am the immigrant here, the one with a different religion, language and set of ideas about what's right and what's wrong. I'm the one that gets stared at and whispered about. The one that's looked at suspiciously just because he's different.
But I don't get up in the morning and strap a bomb to my waste or go and shoot a film maker or make death threats to members of Parliament as has been done in the Netherlands.
Followers of Christianity sometimes do as well -In this country its mostly children who walk into schools or disgruntled church goers who walk into churches and start blasting away and do suicide shootings instead of suicide bombings--I cant see keeping them all out of the country because of isolated incidents. Im sure if I dug into the news I could find murderers and psychopaths from all religions but its not really balanced to judge an entire religion or ethnic group based on the deeds of a small few.
There were Nineteen (19) hijackers on 9/11, the last I read the total number of Al Qaeda is approxiamately 2,500. Im not suggesting anyone allow terrorists, or criminals, or undesirables in the country, but a small handful of extremists in no way accurately represents the billion other people that claim Islam as their religion anymore than Hitler represents all Catholics, McVeigh and Jeffrey Dahmer represents all Americans, or Jack the Ripper all Episcopalians.
99% of Catholics, Episcopalians or Americans you meet will be interesting people to one degree or another, relatively harmless and want to play by the rules, the same goes for muslims and people of any religious group. Violent extremism is an abberration and not the norm
IMO People should be viewed on their own individual merits
You're right. Followers of all religions are cable of -- and have committed -- heinous acts. And again, you're 100% correct, you could find evidence of psychopaths and murderers from every ethnic group. And there's no question or argument that individuals should be judged on their own merit.
However... that's not the point.
In this country its mostly children who walk into schools or disgruntled church goers who walk into churches and start blasting away and do suicide shootings instead of suicide bombings--I cant see keeping them all out of the country because of isolated incidents.
You can't really equate school shootings or disgruntled church goers with Muslim suicide bombers, can you?
The motives are hardly the same. Seriously, you must see this.
Islamic indoctrination that motivates and teaches it's ok to kill the infidels and that everyone must 'submit or die,' is a far cry from the mental illness or social ills of the purveyors of the other acts.
One is systematic, accepted, rewarded, praised and tacitly tolerated ( by the not so extreme followers of the same religion even if on a small level) the other are tagedies caused by a plethora of ills.
Oh, one more thing, no one is talking about 'keeping them all out of the country,' although Geert Wilders and others wouldn't mind seeing them move back to their countries of origin. (Did you read the speech?)
Most European countries have quotas for the amount of foreigners (regardless of origin, however, the large majority are now from Islamic countries) that they allow in.
Like the States, however, the borders are anything but, and illegals abound.
Yea, Islam hardly has the corner on extremism. And in any religion, there are those who don't consider themselves extremists who believe you will go to hell (or their equivalent) if you don't choose their religion, and in particular if you are a follower, then decide it is not right for you and convert to another faith. I have no problem with that; if their God is the true one and will do that to me, then so be it.
I do have a problem with people who believe it is their job to do the sending, implying of course that their god is not the one who decides, because he is not powerful enough. Again, I think you can find at least a few of these in almost any religion. My problem is, my impression, hopefully erroneous, is that this is the prevailing view of Islam; certainly I have seen cases where so-called moderate muslims have endorsed the killing of followers of Islam who reject it in favor of Christianity or any other religion.
If I knew muslims who rejected this idea publically, or of Islamic groups who rejected it (the idea that followers of Islam who reject that faith need to be killed), I would be more than happy, seriously, to state that my impression is wrong. But if individual muslims who do not believe that are forced to stay silent for fear of retribution, well, that would say something in the other direction.
Greek2Me...Who are you to say that Muslims (or other adherents of a belief system that differs from your own) are misguided?
As for me the only thing that makes sense is be kind to everyone because everyone is carrying a burden. :wub: *
*Unless they are narrow-minded, sanctimonious, Scripture spewing (i.e. Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, Bhagvah Gita, Kabballah, Sutra, Tibetan Book of the Dead, et. al) types in which case I feel free and justified to 'dis" them.
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RumRunner
Well I think I stated my views on bigotry in the "Mexico" thread - I'll just project similar thoughts over to this thread. I submit though that there are a few differences between ethnicity and religion. Ethnicity just is - you are born Mexican? Then you are Mexican all your life and it has nothing to do with how you behave. Religion (or spiritual beliefs if you prefer) are a choice. The depth of conviction to that belief is also a choice. But as most of us have experienced in TWI - devout followers of ANY religion can (note "can" not "do") get pretty dangerous pretty quickly. Clearly, by your description of the evening, your friend is not a devout follower of Islam LOLOL.
Glad you enjoyed some time just hanging with him
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mstar1
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isnt...---For me it was, I (foolishly) at one time chose TWI, others seem content to stay in the spiritual tradition where they were born. For some it seems to be an inheritance of who they are and no real decision is ever reached one way or the other..Whether its Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Jewish or any of the jillion forms of Islam, a huge slice of humanity seems content to carry on the spiritual traditions of their families, be 'good' people and let it go at that.
I dont know all that many Muslims but the ones that I do are all decent people. To me it seems very unbalanced that a billion person religion would be judged entirely on the actions of a sub sub sub sub group that numbers maybe 2000
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George Aar
The only issue I'd have with Muslims at all is that, like any other garden-variety religious sect, they give over at least a portion of their allegiance to unproveable, unarguable, -often nonsensical- superstitions.
Anytime anybody adheres to tenets simply because their religion says so, somewhere down the road serious "stuff" is gonna hit the fan. Be it denial of modern medical care (a la Christian Science and JWs and others), or riding off to cleanse the Holy Lands from the heathen hordes (a practice I would have hoped died out in the Middle Ages, but...), or all sorts of depraved rites and practices pertaining to sex, food, entertainment (or denial thereof), or the adorable desire to blow oneself to Kingdom Come (and the ensuing orgy) and taking as many infidels with as possible, it all results from the abandonment of reason in exchange for superstitious pablum.
I can't think of anything more UNholy than religion, no matter the brand...
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DontWorryBeHappy
perhaps der victoid was correct in quoting whomever he stole the saying that "all religion is man-made" from..........but, really, is not ALL RELIGION man-made?........as are all the fringe elements of all religions, which all seem to espouse violence against any and all who disagree with them?.......i know........all religions claim unique god-breathed or ordained beginnings.........miraculous events, lives, or "thoughts" which distinguish them as being "the one, true.......(fill-in-the-blank)?..........just asking............
my personal experiences with devout muslims have been no more threatening or enlightening than have my personal experiences with devout catholics, evangelical/protestant christians, buddhists, sikhs, bahais, hindus, wiccans, rastafarians, jews, atheists, et al...........i find all sincerely religious folks, regardless of their chosen faiths, to be gentle, kind, and caring. it's the business of their religions that taints their theology............again though........man-made............peace.
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Watered Garden
I actually worked with a Muslim physician my last couple of years as a full time employee. He was a resident, devout, kind, and charitable. He was horrible at dictation when he came there, but we worked on it and he was passable when I retired.
He's a good guy and I wish him well.
WG
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washn'wear
are they all the same ---hmm -- are Christians and Jews and atheists, Buddhists, Baha'i and Hindus all the same ?? really
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Watered Garden
Now see, that's the point - there are all kinds of different thoughts and beliefs in every religion, at least the ones I know about. I never asked my physician friend about what branch/denomination/what have you he espoused. I just saw by his actions that he tried very hard to be kind and charitable. Someone once mentioned to me they wished they were as good a Christian as he was a Muslim.
WG
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mstar1
I think so, they may have different religious methods but the end result is about the same.People are who they are --- many are content to raise families, be good neighbors, please the deity of their choice and do what they perceive as some good works.
Some are sunday or religious holiday believers only, some are more committed, some are fanatics, some inherited it through their families, some in each group are dangerous wackos, some have to be convinced that they are right at all costs.
I would guess that breaking it down that different categories the percentages are about the same across all the different religions.
For every bin Laden there is a Timothy MacVeigh,
and for every Mother Theresa there is a Mahatma Gandhi.
For every crazy preacher they have we have one too..that goes for good ones too
There are billions of people between the extremes who will never be revered as saints or reviled as monsters but are decent honest people no matter what religious label they carry
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kimberly
George Aar said, " I can't think of anything more UNholy than religion, no matter the brand..."
George, I wish I had said that.
The most wicked force on the face of the earth...religion. The most powerful force on the face of the earth....Love. Love, baby, love.
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Greek2me
I'm curious... If I related my 'friend who is a muslim story' and showed completely different conclusions... would I be awarded the seeming authority Pmosh claims (albeit not overtly) in his 'Islam is a religion of peace' conclusion. (ie, after all they're just humans and really no different from us)
Perhaps the following article (speech) -- by someone with a little more experience and credibility than just a few beers combined with lustful acts and seemingly questionable table fare -- might shed some light for those who care to see the reality of ISLAM as a whole... not muslims as the flawed individuals they - along with everyone else - are.
Here
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GarthP2000
Said link keeps reminding me of that old adage:
"Always consider the source."
<_<
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mstar1
hmmm....... under indictment in two countries and banned from several others as an undesirable (The UK) offers credibility?
Thats a new one on me
:)
You could offer some David Duke if you wanted a view on white separatism and he wouldnt have half of the baggage
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washn'wear
Mstar - I understand your point...basic human needs and all, but my point is that no one group contains clones of eachother...
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shazdancer
It's like the blind men and the elephant. If you're at the tail, you'd describe the elephant one way, and if you're by the tusk, you'd describe it differently. You have to stand back and view the whole elephant to get the true picture.
Sure, there are all different brands of Islam, and different people express their religion in the way that is comfortable to them. I always wanna know: are they better for it? more loving? kinder?
Muslim in my area means African-American, because we have a large group of Somali immigrants here who practice Islam. So the dress is different, the language is different, the culture is different than you might think of as Muslim. What most of us don't see is how different some of the subgroups within the population are. There are refugees and immigrants, educated and not, Kenyans and other African nations, and different types of Islam.
I think it is a human tendency to try to lump people into categories...
~ Shaz
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Mister P-Mosh
So you feel that Muslims are not humans?
I know it's difficult for you, but be honest -- Freerepublic has no credibility outside of the extreme right-wing politically, and anyone can post there, so there's no reason to believe someone there is an expert in anything.
I also don't pay attention to neo-nazi politicians who are so well known for being full of hatred that they can't even get a visa to visit the U.K. anymore.
In addition to that, I know that you can't name a single religion that hasn't been used to hurt people. Christianity is just as guilty as any other, if not moreso. I personally am opposed to religion overall, but tolerate it as some people seem to need it to feel better about their lives.
Of course, you can come here and try to troll all you want, but you posting that filth isn't going to override my opinion of my friends. I'm as against the Taliban and al Qaeda as anyone and hope that they cease to exist. I'm just smart enough to not lump all Muslims in that group.
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Big Ben
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mstar1
OK---you're going for 'experience and credibility'.....lets try this one......The President of The United States (remember him?) gave a speech yesterday in Ankara , Turkey
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Greek2me
Wow, sorry I didn't get to this yesterday, but I was replacing my mother board (*&^%$$#&*^%!@#) (gotta love built in obsolescence... but that's another thread)
Pmosh,
Is that really what you got from what I said, or are you trying to get a rise? Of course they're humans, and yes, I see them as such. Misguided, of course, but humans nonetheless. You agree, don't you, that they are misguided?
You certainly have the luxury (now) to 'tolerate' religion. But what happens when that religion turns out to not 'tolerate' you? You know, kinda like the Jews that tolerated the Nazi's until... whoops too late.
Yes, extreme is my example, however, given the fact that it has happened before only emphasizes its veracity.
I am too. It's not individuals that are the problem, it's ISLAM. That was the point of my post. But since I posted a link from a site that is 'right wing' it's automatically dismissed as not being worthy of being read or simply ignoring 'the source'.
The source, btw, is a democratically elected member of parliament in the Netherlands -- who happens to compare the Koran with Hitler's Mein Kampf -- so I guess that blows your neo-nazi claim, eh? In fact, if you compared your background and his, I'm sure you'd find some striking similarities.
I suppose if I had posted the speech (btw, did you read the speeech, right?) from this site (i didn't like the picture at the top) or this site ( i didn't want to bring another religion into the mix but i did like the comment at the top about replacing the word Europe with India and getting pretty much the same thing) or this site (you'll probably like this one, but I think it's too commercial) or this one (because we are not Romanians) or this one (i didn't like the font type and the sub title to the site was too much -- although there are some good (and bad) quotes along the side -- Chesterton sure sounds like he was a wise man) or this one (i didn't like the green moon and star or the name for that matter) and then I came to the site i did post the link from which was so, seemingly, dismissed. So now you have a choice :)
You're smarter than this, right? At least, I thought you were. The Netherlands and the UK are both in the EU. They don't need visas anymore. It's kinda like going from Indiana to Illinois. Open borders for Eu citizens.
Wilders was/is 'persona non grata' in the UK because of his 'controversial' film, Fitna.
I don't consider the speech I posted, nor any of my comments to be 'filth'. Can you enlighten me as to what, exactly, it is that was posted and so 'filthy'?
I wouldn't dream of trying to override your opinion of your friends. I do, however, question your somewhat naive and limited conclusions based on 'a night out with the boys'.
Mstar,
Experience and credibility compared to Pmosh... I think you understood that... but since you bring the POTUS into the mix I think the Dutch member of parliament trumps him hands down -- in the credibility and experience department -- concerning said issue. I don't think a few years in his childhood beats the steady increase of Islaminisation that Wilders has seen and felt in his homeland.
Sure, you'll probably disagree, but, quite frankly, you'd be wrong.
Harvard law school and the Chicago 'burbs not to mention his stint as a law professor, plus the Illinois State House and the US Senate hardly gives the O'ster experience and credibility in dealing with this issue. None of the places mentioned (stops along Obama's career path?) appear to me to be hotbeds of controversial Islamic activity.
Wilders, on the other hand, has seen an explosive increase in Muslims in his country, not to mention Europe (Paris Islamic riots?) and the effects this increase has caused first hand.
Concerning the President's quote... I agree with him. The United States isn't at war with Islam. Islam, all claims to the contrary notwithstanding, appears to be at war with the US.
some perspective for what it's worth
Watch the film too. You might be surprised.
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mstar1
Too many links to review this early in the morning-Maybe I'll get to it when I have more time.
The bottom line seems to be an intense fear of anyone that is different. That's something that I cant ever agree with or understand.
My ancestors were ostracized in this country in the 1630's because they were Quakers (o the horrors). Every wave of immigrants since then has signalled the end of the country in one way or another to the alarmists--the Irish, the Jews, the Asians, etc.. --The alarm is now its focussed on Mexicans and Central Americans
Somehow the country has always adjusted, moved past its prejudices, been OK and the vast majority of immigrants have assimilated and become good citizens and neighbors. Its always been a melting pot here and probably always will be..I personally like it that way. I live in an area that is multicultural and wouldnt want it any other way...I really cant understand what all the fear is about
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Greek2me
I agree with you... but I think that in this case the difference is not only the 'difference' of the people we are talking about, but the kind of difference they bring.
Let's face it.
Mexicans an Central Americans don't fly airplanes into the twin towers screaming 'God is great.' Nor do they set off bombs in subways or night clubs in far away lands in the name of their God because of a religious or ideological belief. Nor do they attack tourists because they are infidels that must be eliminated. And I can't remember the last time a Mexican or someone from Central America attacked an American Embassy with high explosives or rocket launchers.
Again, I agree, but we are not talking about the USA. We're talking about Europe.
In short, differences are great. I'm different from almost all of those around me. I am the immigrant here, the one with a different religion, language and set of ideas about what's right and what's wrong. I'm the one that gets stared at and whispered about. The one that's looked at suspiciously just because he's different.
But I don't get up in the morning and strap a bomb to my waste or go and shoot a film maker or make death threats to members of Parliament as has been done in the Netherlands.
Followers of Islam, however, sometimes do.
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mstar1
Followers of Christianity sometimes do as well -In this country its mostly children who walk into schools or disgruntled church goers who walk into churches and start blasting away and do suicide shootings instead of suicide bombings--I cant see keeping them all out of the country because of isolated incidents. Im sure if I dug into the news I could find murderers and psychopaths from all religions but its not really balanced to judge an entire religion or ethnic group based on the deeds of a small few.
There were Nineteen (19) hijackers on 9/11, the last I read the total number of Al Qaeda is approxiamately 2,500. Im not suggesting anyone allow terrorists, or criminals, or undesirables in the country, but a small handful of extremists in no way accurately represents the billion other people that claim Islam as their religion anymore than Hitler represents all Catholics, McVeigh and Jeffrey Dahmer represents all Americans, or Jack the Ripper all Episcopalians.
99% of Catholics, Episcopalians or Americans you meet will be interesting people to one degree or another, relatively harmless and want to play by the rules, the same goes for muslims and people of any religious group. Violent extremism is an abberration and not the norm
IMO People should be viewed on their own individual merits
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Greek2me
You're right. Followers of all religions are cable of -- and have committed -- heinous acts. And again, you're 100% correct, you could find evidence of psychopaths and murderers from every ethnic group. And there's no question or argument that individuals should be judged on their own merit.
However... that's not the point.
You can't really equate school shootings or disgruntled church goers with Muslim suicide bombers, can you?
The motives are hardly the same. Seriously, you must see this.
Islamic indoctrination that motivates and teaches it's ok to kill the infidels and that everyone must 'submit or die,' is a far cry from the mental illness or social ills of the purveyors of the other acts.
One is systematic, accepted, rewarded, praised and tacitly tolerated ( by the not so extreme followers of the same religion even if on a small level) the other are tagedies caused by a plethora of ills.
Oh, one more thing, no one is talking about 'keeping them all out of the country,' although Geert Wilders and others wouldn't mind seeing them move back to their countries of origin. (Did you read the speech?)
Most European countries have quotas for the amount of foreigners (regardless of origin, however, the large majority are now from Islamic countries) that they allow in.
Like the States, however, the borders are anything but, and illegals abound.
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Lifted Up
Yea, Islam hardly has the corner on extremism. And in any religion, there are those who don't consider themselves extremists who believe you will go to hell (or their equivalent) if you don't choose their religion, and in particular if you are a follower, then decide it is not right for you and convert to another faith. I have no problem with that; if their God is the true one and will do that to me, then so be it.
I do have a problem with people who believe it is their job to do the sending, implying of course that their god is not the one who decides, because he is not powerful enough. Again, I think you can find at least a few of these in almost any religion. My problem is, my impression, hopefully erroneous, is that this is the prevailing view of Islam; certainly I have seen cases where so-called moderate muslims have endorsed the killing of followers of Islam who reject it in favor of Christianity or any other religion.
If I knew muslims who rejected this idea publically, or of Islamic groups who rejected it (the idea that followers of Islam who reject that faith need to be killed), I would be more than happy, seriously, to state that my impression is wrong. But if individual muslims who do not believe that are forced to stay silent for fear of retribution, well, that would say something in the other direction.
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oenophile
Greek2Me...Who are you to say that Muslims (or other adherents of a belief system that differs from your own) are misguided?
As for me the only thing that makes sense is be kind to everyone because everyone is carrying a burden. :wub: *
*Unless they are narrow-minded, sanctimonious, Scripture spewing (i.e. Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, Bhagvah Gita, Kabballah, Sutra, Tibetan Book of the Dead, et. al) types in which case I feel free and justified to 'dis" them.
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