You put educated words to what I have begun to see in my own battles....how one cannot allow their value, their sense of self worth to be determined by another....I have tried to teach my kids....that family members, friends, people at work, may be toxic and difficult...it is so important to see that and not feel responsible for their misery or to see yourself in the distorted mirror of their vision.
The way you describe becoming an addict....you have put into words, what I was groping to try to explain....I am going to have my teens/young adults read this whole page.
And the practical application is simple and yet a BIG struggle once you have given your power away.
Healing:
Know where to place a "period" at the end of a sentence.
The developing co-dependent will say, "He makes me feel good about myself"
Learn to say, "He makes me feel good."
The responsibility of feeling GOOD "about yourself" lies within YOU and your own power/own walk with God.
When you begin to be uncomfortable and are having bells and whistles -- do not talk yourself out of them. They are tools placed there by God to keep us out of the soup.
A small example:
On the WOW field I had 3 girls in my "family". One night one of the girls drove to a meeting and when she went to PARK the car, she was uncomfortable with the spot she chose. The other girls said, "Oh leave the car here, come on, who cares?"
I said, "IF YOU are not comfortable parking here then don't. If anything happens THEY are not going to be responsible. YOU will be."
Do not let their words turn off your HEALTHY switches.
She moved the car and the next morning the car that DID park there was hit.
Now, you cannot go the other way where you allow healthy signals to become obsessive/compulsive either.
I am speaking of a healthy walk of freedom. We cannot control everything, we can control ourselves and how we handle things thrown at us. If someone wants to take away your POWER. GET OUT!!
When the gregarious, confident man begins to leak the monster inside -- run. You cannot FIX him, there is a monster, you are not crazy.
Many of those people who "tripped out" of TWI probably saw the monster. They were the smart ones to leave.
We, who stayed to FIX it, although courageous, only hurt ourselves. You cannot fix a sociopath or a counterfeit society and stay "genuine". You begin to compromise. You allow "self" to be stolen and replaced by blind obedience. You can have a sense of “self” powered by God. You cannot have a sense of “self” powered by a cancer cell of a human being or an organization --- they will feed on “self” until nothing is left.
Know how to take a person and place them in one chair and their behavior in another.
Know when someone GOES OFF on you - most times it is about them. You KNOW if you did something wrong.
If you did not DO something wrong do not let their words ride into your soul.
YA know, "You worthless piece of crap, you will never amount to anything. YOU BLEW IT!" Those messages are about THEM not about you -- unless you burned their house down or something and still the words need to be adjusted and you need help-- not be told you will NEVER amount to anything.
I think you see where I am going...
That is why the unconditional love of God is so amazing.
Only read the next sentence, then close your eyes and answer before continuing:
BE HONEST
Describe how you feel about God RIGHT now... THEN, read on...
I, at first said, he is never there when I really need him, when I call to hear him he can be silent, I do not understand him and I feel he is hot and cold at times.
She said you described your "earthly" father. Many of you just did as well. We need to separate the two fathers. And even though my earthly father did his BEST it is not the standard of love the heavenly father has for us. Our earthly fathers have cracks in them, hurts, wounds, and bad choices -- they are men. OUR GOD does not have those cracks - it is safe to love him -- the REAL him not the manufactured counterfeit HIM TWI presented -- with the give you something with the left hand and smack the crap out of you for taking it with the right hand -- kind of crap. That message breeds insanity, not safety.
Here is an exercise:
Put TWI in one chair and God in the other and tell me about each. tell me the differences. We, cult kids, need to separate them.
Many of those people who "tripped out" of TWI probably saw the monster. They were the smart ones to leave.
I find I must disagree, in part, with this conclusion.
Their decision to leave may have been wise, but it doesn't make they, themselves, "smart".
Consider this:
As an experiment, you bring a cow that's been dyed purple, a "monster" of sorts, into a large open room of people.
Some may recognize the cow instantly for what it is.
Others may admit to seeing the cow, but try to find a rational explanation for it's presence.
Another group may see the cow, but insist it's an illusion.
Some may never see the cow because it's been obscured from view by other people or objects in the room.
Some people will accept the cow for what it is, only after careful consideration.
And there are probably many other variations as well.
But, if you ask these same people to recount the incident at a later date, their perception of the event may have changed.
None of this makes one group smarter or wiser than the next. It simply demonstrates that perceptions can vary from person to person and even from one time frame to the next within the same person. .
Through it all, though, one thing remains constant-------the existence of the cow.
The "purple cow" was/is always there in TWI.
After careful consideration, I like to think I'm finally starting to accept the "purple cow" for what it really was.
edit:
I'm sure I must have heard or read this example, or a variation, somewhere , sometime. I don't remember where or when though. Any documentation (of the example, not necessarily my conclusion of its meaning) would be welcome.
Even here at Greasespot when person after person tells certain posters they need to wake up, it is like an intervention. We have seen many people delivered. We have seen a few where the “intervention” just does not work because they just do not get the “extent” of their addiction. They have not “hit bottom” or cannot see the fact that they are bottom dwellers as they are so engrained in protecting the “source” that their “lives” have shrunk and not expanded. In their small sphere of life the “source” has been protected, the drug is still available and the fact that their life has become small is lost on them and they do not see they were robbed of all they could and can be.
May I add, without all TWI made them feel at one time, they loose their identity and feel like nothing. There is the lie. TWI/sociopaths steal your identity they do not provide it.
It is like the 55-year-old guy who keeps talking about the "game" they played where they did the winning MOVE in high school. That was the best it ever got for them. Their identity was so defined by their victory in sports they cannot or will not look at their own current life and strive towards current victory. When they feel crappy they revisit the feel good moment 36 years ago and they feel better.
We need to get on with our lives, those who have not, we can take the feel good moment of PFAL and credit BG Leonard, and build on it. We were never suppose to stop there defending that "moment" in time as the reason they live. IT is such a trick. And those tricked were probably just kids looking for Jesus like us -- but they cannot get out of it because the reality --- that the reality was a woven lie -- is just too much. It is as if the 55-year-old guy gets word someone taped his "moment" and when looking at it again -- the other team actually won because he did something wrong. He will fight to death defending his "game" and the day he won it for his team. It takes some big meek people to look at it and say, "I was wrong." At that moment all/much of what we stood on falls apart and we need to build a "new floor" to stand on. It takes a little work. It is easier for some to self-deceive than to do the work. It is a shame and they might be among the largest and saddest loss we gave to TWI. --- What they could have been.... What we could have been...
So, let us say this is what I will be now!! (And recover, we can ask for God to restore that which the locust have eaten)
It is like the 55-year-old guy who keeps talking about the "game" they played where they did the winning MOVE in high school. That was the best it ever got for them. Their identity was so defined by their victory in sports they cannot or will not look at their own current life and strive towards current victory. When they feel crappy they revisit the feel good moment 36 years ago and they feel better.
that's the "odor" I detect in jl's pathetic "da way-it was" letter..
"sure, it was abusive, doctrinally and practically 'screwed up', but for a brief MOMENT.. *we* were part of da most significant MOVE of gawd since the first century."
the "pathetic" part about it was, *we* didn't "win" some kind of game.. his little "winning moves" were marked foul.. not that there would be a significantly different outcome if they weren't..
I think if it was anything he "won", it was a ruling seat in an abusive organization.. chosen out of all of the rest of the drones..
Waysider I agree that not all people were smart. But many were. I had many people tell me something wasn't right, or they wanted to get an education rather than go WOW or whatever and they were considered "trip outs." Some of the corps who did not come back, not due to finances, but they "fell in love" on the field and wanted to get married. They saw a more productive life than life in TWI and they were told he who vows a vow... Or whatever, many had valid reasons for not letting an "organization" control them. Several friends of mine left after they were introduced to the its okay to sleep with leadership. OR you were called to bless a man of God sexually... crap. They were smart. Really, it was unreasonable for me to stay once vpw tried to get me. But not knowing all the stuff, like provided through Paw's Greasespot, I fought for the "good" to come back. Being completely tricked into thinking there was GOOD in there that could be revived.
Some, of course, were not. Thus the purple cow...
If you-know-who were here he'd have us fighting over define "many". All relative to your journey with TWI, I guess.
I do not want to get too specific for there will always be a detail that doesn't apply to the journey "you" took. But the groundwork for independent deliverance is my goal here.
I admit I have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. I admit I have been tricked and deceived. I am humbly before God asking for direction and healing -- I do not offer you -- YOUR healing. I offer you some of what I am learning about mine. May we each find our way to "health" and to those who are "there" congrats it was not a journey without struggle. I salute you!
(In some ways, I am replying to some PM's I got, in this public forum, so I may have things geared to a person who asked something more pointed then to the general reader -- although, I am merely sharing some "release" tools I got from understanding how giving your power to others actually works.)
I am relating to you some of what counseling has provided for ME. If you need more “you” specific help, then please go find help. If my general stuff can help you to “self” discovery then Praise God. I am in the "repair shop" myself understanding how I “danced” and why I "danced" to survive "sick" relationships. I am tearing apart my own life to discover WHY I gravitate to people who demand I "dance." ...HOW I get tricked into staying in the situations and how to avoid them in the future. Al-anon is very helpful as well as Celebrate Recovery if you cannot afford private therapy. I am fortunate that my Christian counselor stopped charging me a fee and has taken me on because as she stated, “I see something in you and I believe God wants me to continue seeing you until you find wellness.”
Not all things listed in any book/class/org are all me or YOU. They do not define all the “personal” journey, but I can apply the corporate thinking and flush out what being around “sick” people and organizations did to me. These things make the people orbiting around the “ill”--- ill themselves. They are crazy-makers. My goal is to find health, to repair and share my journey, as it may help others. My journey will never be exactly your journey but if we “share things” some may be beneficial – your job, should anyone decide to try a similar path as mine, is to discern out for yourself the “healing” you can apply in your own life and NOT apply the parts that do not apply --- That in itself is a portion of finding “self.”
This may help and some parts may apply to your understanding. Some were good for me to read. Some did not apply. But reading the "corporate" writings help me hewn out a personal victory... I did not try and make the unapplicable parts BE my problem because someone else said they might be -- this is a victory.
The middle stage we begin to not always get the response we want so we TRY to please our “source” even more. We now go up and down with their infrequent responses of kindness. We experience hurt and disappointment. Where did the "good feeling" go? What did "I do" to make them stop "loving" me? How can I modify MY behavior to get my "drug" (their approval - love)? We are addicted.
In the co-dependency there are two faces (and varying degrees) on the extreme end, I wanted to bring up, where some/few/many (whatever applies) of us are not as extrmeme in our co-dependency.
However:
Those who grab onto the “feel good” moment to preserve their “achievements and their grandiose identity”. You are addicted and cling to the “feel good” moment even though those moments are gone and mountains of truth have been provided for any reasonable person to become aware of the monster in the suit. You cling to the “up” moment and fight to stay there.
And those wrecked by them who cling to the identity of the victim. “They abused me therefore I get drunk all the time. They abused me therefore I hate God and anyone who mentions his lousy name. I am the way I am because of them.”
Yes, you were injured and they gave you MORE things to have to fight through and come back from. But to STAY there you are a sell out to the “down” they provided.
Either EXTREME is the violation of “self”.
The abused needs to GET HELP as they continue to flounder and with each “excessive drink” or “affair” to pretend you do not hurt. OR outburst against God or “all who believe” is the root of anger, frustration and STILL not having your power back. You want to become an atheist – fine. Do so on your terms not from a position of pain or anger. Do what YOU want after you recover “self.” (Again, this is not a one size fits all. It may apply to some and not to others. If it is not your shoe size, then by all means it is NOT your shoe.)
The victim gives it up by refusing to fight for health but rather gains an identity as the “icon of abuse” so they need the "abuse factor" to live on and on to have an excuse for their failures.
The “defender” of TWI, despite the reports of abuse and obvious detriment, because they need to preserve their identity of “once being something because they supported the answer, THE way, THE truth holding organization” etc, refuses to "SEE" and continues to defend.
You get the point.
Both are sick.
Waysider:
The peace between us was never gone or in jeopardy. Bless
Dot - I have read most of the "boundaries" books - and own most of them. It took reading them twice before it started to sink in. FWIW, most of my boundary issues had little to do with my involvement in TWI. The hard part in TWI (and CES) was ignoring all the "helpful advice" on how to live my life while remaining "in". I was probably referred to as one of those "tripped-out" people, but chose to ignore it (for the most part) unless it was not subtle. Finally, I decided being a part of it and any offshoot on any level simply wasn't worth the effort.
Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be.
I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion.
And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).
What a declaration of health!! I hope one day we can all post our "recovery" from all of this. A lot of childhood things led some of us to TWI and they capitolized on the cracks.
Whatever it takes in a journey to find "self" and health is so cool to read. Thank you. You apparently did not need the "drug" to get your own "high" so to speak. You walked away from the snare!! Great story!
I am in "recovery"
Not just a "cult" recovery but a choices I made in life which led me to a cult "recovery".
I am just exhausted from all the "dancing" I have done. I fought the "snare" and always thought I fought it from a position of outside the "snare". When I woke up, I realized part of my own illusion was I thought I was not caught "IN" the snare. I thought I was helping others get out. When indeed, in my case, I was caught as well. How did I recognize I was in a/the snare? My treatment THERE(TWI) led me to seek out their abusive treatment of me (hot/cold) in every subsequent relationship I had..... I had to recognize I was NOT on the ouside of the snare viewing those who were caught but I was caught, myself, with them. Just a little different trap designed personally for me -- just like each trap is a personal one as well as "standard" in many ways. I was doing the same dance over and over and did not even really KNOW it.
One day, one of the wonderful male posters here kept saying, "What do YOU want? Who are you?"
I had no answers. I was lost as my anchors were sources "outside" myself.
Now, I look within to see what I need to fix IN me and I look "up" to God for direction... Not to a man or organization to let me know what God wants from me -- I go to the "man" himself.
That is probably all I can share. I hope it helps some. This is as far as I am in my understanding and recovery.
Dot - I have read most of the "boundaries" books - and own most of them. It took reading them twice before it started to sink in. FWIW, most of my boundary issues had little to do with my involvement in TWI. The hard part in TWI (and CES) was ignoring all the "helpful advice" on how to live my life while remaining "in". I was probably referred to as one of those "tripped-out" people, but chose to ignore it (for the most part) unless it was not subtle. Finally, I decided being a part of it and any offshoot on any level simply wasn't worth the effort.
Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be.
I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion.
And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).
Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be.
I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion.
And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).
that's the "odor" I detect in jl's pathetic "da way-it was" letter..
"sure, it was abusive, doctrinally and practically 'screwed up', but for a brief MOMENT.. *we* were part of da most significant MOVE of gawd since the first century."
ARTHUR:
Each evening, from December to December,
Before you drift to sleep upon your cot,
Think back on all the tales that you remember
Of Camelot.
Ask ev'ry person if he's heard the story,
And tell it strong and clear if he has not,
That once there was a fleeting wisp of glory
Called Camelot.
Camelot! Camelot!
Now say it out with pride and joy!
TOM:
Camelot! Camelot!
ARTHUR:
Yes, Camelot, my boy!
Where once it never rained till after sundown, (except at the Rock of Ages K2K)
By eight a.m. the morning fog had flown...
Don't let it be forgot
That once there was a spot
For one brief shining moment that was known
As Camelot.
(From Lerner and Loewe's musical, Camelot)
At least in some people's minds, it was Camelot. It was a time of their lives in which they considered themselves to be at their "personal best". I myself have many good memories of my time in the Way; mostly because the vast majority of folks with whom I fellowshipped and hung out were nice, genuine people.
But as I look back, I can see the seeds and germination of control and domination going back to my earliest involvement. When I finally left TWI, my compliance with TWI policies and procedures was not only expected, it was demanded. Nevermind that I was neither a paid employee nor a participant in one of their "programs".
And that's why I won't ever consider hooking up or aligning with "splinter" groups. Instead of creating organizations that mirror or replicate the Way, the heads of these organizations should spend the rest of their lives examining how their participation in the Way enabled slavish groupthink devotion to an abusive, destructive con man, erasure of personal boundaries and good morals, diversion of freely-given moneys shared for the "movement of God's Word over the World" to the pursuit of perversion, and the psychological torture of falsely accusing someone of being in God's extreme disfavor.
Thanks Dot for all of your posts!!! They are great and very much needed in my recovery.
We can learn from each other!!!
About my "friend"---I e-mailed her back with what I thought were good suggestions, things I've done in my life. She never responded. I guess it wasn't what she was expecting!!! We are just in two different places in our lives....I pray for her. Again thanks for all the support I've received regarding this situation.
And you know something, as much as I thought I could handle it, I realize now, there a huge risk in trying to be of help to her. I'm glad I didn't have to take it.
Newlife - Sometimes the best thing to do in life is to walk away. I have been in the "repair" shop with God crafting me and removing the broken parts. Anyway, I had a wonderful successful friend and his wife coming to my home. I set out to "REPAIR" things so I would be presentable. I sewed the end of a ripped pillow, I sat with blankets the dogs chewed and tried to fix them in vain. I had throw rugs they had one too may accidents on that had been washed 2000 times that looked so beaten up it was reflective of how I felt. And suddenly, I realized I do not have to FIX everything. I can throw it out and get new stuff. So, I did. And you know it was a small step for man and a giant step for mankind... OOPS wrong line. It was a small thing to do with giant delivering side affects. Somehow, I became NEW as well....
Well I was wondering, (something I often do since I gave up actual thinking for lent) since we started with personal questions from Dorian - got twisted into the usual judge of all posts derailment and have settled into numerous discussions on failed relationships - anybody here have more to say/answer about Dorian's questions?
No don't get me wrong - there were plenty of insightful and noteworthy posts about relationships - I just don't want to leave Dorian hanging - this is the second thread he started which ended up derailed or modified or blah blah - but not offering addition answers or advice he is apparently looking for.
i think i offered my email for your friend at the beginning of the thread -- not that that would really help since she doesn't know me
i'm not sure what to say. i'm sorry about your stress
if your friend thinks anything said "against" wierwille or the way is just "man" speak, it's hard to come up with something because it feels like her mind has a shield up already
hi everyone. I guess i jut wanted to give an update on my friend. we still have talks every now and again but they are pretty stressful, and they mostly consist of her talking the whole time. i just want to tell her I can't take her seriously....especially when I ask her about weirwille and the ways history of sexual abuse and all she has to say is "i know it is not true". blah! I hate the walls that she has put up...that she probably doesn't even realize she has put up. i hate that she tells me I should not listen to "man" when she only listens to one man. she had uploaded all of pw's books onto my computer a long time ago before i knew what they were so i read through them time and again to understand what she believes...but honestly it is very hard for me to read them without getting angry because it is hard to read lie after lie. all he arguments and "rules of grammar" are weak and infuriating. sorry for that rant. but i guess if you have any advice or encouragment that would be great. i know i need to give this to God and that I have to stop thinking that I can fix this. but i feel i am not doing enough to help her and there is only so much time before she moves in with them.
Your heartfelt question led us on a great adventure that really crystallized some answers for you if you were listening, which I believe you were.
You saw the nutty application of the "defend" the Way at all costs, including their own "sanity", even when faced with a poster, who logically laid things out, from the perspective of one who has thoroughly known the abuse and tried to expose the illness.
You saw how the voice of an injured person was ignored in the heartless rants of a defender. You saw how one person, did not let her open heart go unnoticed, and told NEWLIFE how awful it was that in all of this she lay bleeding and unnoticed.
I explained some therapeutic things that have opened up that explanation to the ailments of what has happened, from my adventures in TWI and since.
I think this “ride” your heart felt post started is your answer.
If your friend is a “sell-out,” as you can see here, there is nothing you can do to help your friend. For even the facts and the truths of ones who “lived” the horror show and have EXPOSED it go unheeded. You heard a little voice say she was abused and ignored. (You shared the abuse stories and have been ignored) And I shared how a therapist and a Doctor explained the “wild ride” of this cult may have taken place in some of our lives.
The answer: you know your friend. We do not. We know the monster that took your friend. If your friend is like the one “sell-out” poster who never listens and refuses to believe anything is wrong—then your friend will never see. If your friend is like the poster who saw and tried to help others then that will eventually happen, if your friend is “stuck” in an addiction to not have to change, then they will have to "hit bottom". If and when your friend is READY to repair – God will direct him/her to his repair shop with open arms. And God will place your friend in a loving recovery program he knows will work for your friend. Pretty much, you have done all you can. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.
IMO – Pray DorianGreen. Pray for your friend. I think your thread showed you much in the way in answers dear Dorian. Just MHO You are a GOOD friend and his/her success or failure is not on your shoulders -- you ARE a good friend no matter of the final outcome. (I say his/her so anyone reading can get help from your loving trying to help "her" heart)
(((Doriangreen)))
i know i need to give this to God and that I have to stop thinking that I can fix this.
Like Dorothy in the wizard of Oz --- you had your answer all along dear Dorian.
Thank you guys for everything, honestly just hearing your stories and advice give me hope. sometimes i feel like i am going crazy and doubt whether i really know what i am talking about....i guess that is what twi members try to make you feel. but it is encouraging to hear your advice and wisdom. thank you!
(ps i am girl, sorry i know my username makes it kind of confusing) :)
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potato
I don't remember anyone saying that. testimony is testimony, and where multiple witnesses heard the same thing, why would we have to "be there" to accept she said it? do you have the book, WD? if yo
potato
thank you Paw
potato
amen, newlife. twi culture is corrupt. the fact that corps were not trained in counseling skills but were told they were the authorities on running peoples' lives is indicative of how sick twi was, an
waysider
You are a wise lady, Dottie Matrix.
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Dot Matrix
I am ripvanwinkle who awoke from a LOOOOOOONG nap.
(((Waysider)))
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rascal
You put educated words to what I have begun to see in my own battles....how one cannot allow their value, their sense of self worth to be determined by another....I have tried to teach my kids....that family members, friends, people at work, may be toxic and difficult...it is so important to see that and not feel responsible for their misery or to see yourself in the distorted mirror of their vision.
The way you describe becoming an addict....you have put into words, what I was groping to try to explain....I am going to have my teens/young adults read this whole page.
Thanks you guys.
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Dot Matrix
And the practical application is simple and yet a BIG struggle once you have given your power away.
Healing:
Know where to place a "period" at the end of a sentence.
The developing co-dependent will say, "He makes me feel good about myself"
Learn to say, "He makes me feel good."
The responsibility of feeling GOOD "about yourself" lies within YOU and your own power/own walk with God.
When you begin to be uncomfortable and are having bells and whistles -- do not talk yourself out of them. They are tools placed there by God to keep us out of the soup.
A small example:
On the WOW field I had 3 girls in my "family". One night one of the girls drove to a meeting and when she went to PARK the car, she was uncomfortable with the spot she chose. The other girls said, "Oh leave the car here, come on, who cares?"
I said, "IF YOU are not comfortable parking here then don't. If anything happens THEY are not going to be responsible. YOU will be."
Do not let their words turn off your HEALTHY switches.
She moved the car and the next morning the car that DID park there was hit.
Now, you cannot go the other way where you allow healthy signals to become obsessive/compulsive either.
I am speaking of a healthy walk of freedom. We cannot control everything, we can control ourselves and how we handle things thrown at us. If someone wants to take away your POWER. GET OUT!!
When the gregarious, confident man begins to leak the monster inside -- run. You cannot FIX him, there is a monster, you are not crazy.
Many of those people who "tripped out" of TWI probably saw the monster. They were the smart ones to leave.
We, who stayed to FIX it, although courageous, only hurt ourselves. You cannot fix a sociopath or a counterfeit society and stay "genuine". You begin to compromise. You allow "self" to be stolen and replaced by blind obedience. You can have a sense of “self” powered by God. You cannot have a sense of “self” powered by a cancer cell of a human being or an organization --- they will feed on “self” until nothing is left.
Know how to take a person and place them in one chair and their behavior in another.
Know when someone GOES OFF on you - most times it is about them. You KNOW if you did something wrong.
If you did not DO something wrong do not let their words ride into your soul.
YA know, "You worthless piece of crap, you will never amount to anything. YOU BLEW IT!" Those messages are about THEM not about you -- unless you burned their house down or something and still the words need to be adjusted and you need help-- not be told you will NEVER amount to anything.
I think you see where I am going...
That is why the unconditional love of God is so amazing.
Only read the next sentence, then close your eyes and answer before continuing:
BE HONEST
Describe how you feel about God RIGHT now... THEN, read on...
I, at first said, he is never there when I really need him, when I call to hear him he can be silent, I do not understand him and I feel he is hot and cold at times.
She said you described your "earthly" father. Many of you just did as well. We need to separate the two fathers. And even though my earthly father did his BEST it is not the standard of love the heavenly father has for us. Our earthly fathers have cracks in them, hurts, wounds, and bad choices -- they are men. OUR GOD does not have those cracks - it is safe to love him -- the REAL him not the manufactured counterfeit HIM TWI presented -- with the give you something with the left hand and smack the crap out of you for taking it with the right hand -- kind of crap. That message breeds insanity, not safety.
Here is an exercise:
Put TWI in one chair and God in the other and tell me about each. tell me the differences. We, cult kids, need to separate them.
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waysider
I find I must disagree, in part, with this conclusion.
Their decision to leave may have been wise, but it doesn't make they, themselves, "smart".
Consider this:
As an experiment, you bring a cow that's been dyed purple, a "monster" of sorts, into a large open room of people.
Some may recognize the cow instantly for what it is.
Others may admit to seeing the cow, but try to find a rational explanation for it's presence.
Another group may see the cow, but insist it's an illusion.
Some may never see the cow because it's been obscured from view by other people or objects in the room.
Some people will accept the cow for what it is, only after careful consideration.
And there are probably many other variations as well.
But, if you ask these same people to recount the incident at a later date, their perception of the event may have changed.
None of this makes one group smarter or wiser than the next. It simply demonstrates that perceptions can vary from person to person and even from one time frame to the next within the same person. .
Through it all, though, one thing remains constant-------the existence of the cow.
The "purple cow" was/is always there in TWI.
After careful consideration, I like to think I'm finally starting to accept the "purple cow" for what it really was.
edit:
I'm sure I must have heard or read this example, or a variation, somewhere , sometime. I don't remember where or when though. Any documentation (of the example, not necessarily my conclusion of its meaning) would be welcome.
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Dot Matrix
May I add, without all TWI made them feel at one time, they loose their identity and feel like nothing. There is the lie. TWI/sociopaths steal your identity they do not provide it.
It is like the 55-year-old guy who keeps talking about the "game" they played where they did the winning MOVE in high school. That was the best it ever got for them. Their identity was so defined by their victory in sports they cannot or will not look at their own current life and strive towards current victory. When they feel crappy they revisit the feel good moment 36 years ago and they feel better.
We need to get on with our lives, those who have not, we can take the feel good moment of PFAL and credit BG Leonard, and build on it. We were never suppose to stop there defending that "moment" in time as the reason they live. IT is such a trick. And those tricked were probably just kids looking for Jesus like us -- but they cannot get out of it because the reality --- that the reality was a woven lie -- is just too much. It is as if the 55-year-old guy gets word someone taped his "moment" and when looking at it again -- the other team actually won because he did something wrong. He will fight to death defending his "game" and the day he won it for his team. It takes some big meek people to look at it and say, "I was wrong." At that moment all/much of what we stood on falls apart and we need to build a "new floor" to stand on. It takes a little work. It is easier for some to self-deceive than to do the work. It is a shame and they might be among the largest and saddest loss we gave to TWI. --- What they could have been.... What we could have been...
So, let us say this is what I will be now!! (And recover, we can ask for God to restore that which the locust have eaten)
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Broken Arrow
Dot, It has been a blessing to read your posts. I too am copying them to share with others.
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Ham
that's the "odor" I detect in jl's pathetic "da way-it was" letter..
"sure, it was abusive, doctrinally and practically 'screwed up', but for a brief MOMENT.. *we* were part of da most significant MOVE of gawd since the first century."
the "pathetic" part about it was, *we* didn't "win" some kind of game.. his little "winning moves" were marked foul.. not that there would be a significantly different outcome if they weren't..
I think if it was anything he "won", it was a ruling seat in an abusive organization.. chosen out of all of the rest of the drones..
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Dot Matrix
Waysider I agree that not all people were smart. But many were. I had many people tell me something wasn't right, or they wanted to get an education rather than go WOW or whatever and they were considered "trip outs." Some of the corps who did not come back, not due to finances, but they "fell in love" on the field and wanted to get married. They saw a more productive life than life in TWI and they were told he who vows a vow... Or whatever, many had valid reasons for not letting an "organization" control them. Several friends of mine left after they were introduced to the its okay to sleep with leadership. OR you were called to bless a man of God sexually... crap. They were smart. Really, it was unreasonable for me to stay once vpw tried to get me. But not knowing all the stuff, like provided through Paw's Greasespot, I fought for the "good" to come back. Being completely tricked into thinking there was GOOD in there that could be revived.
Some, of course, were not. Thus the purple cow...
If you-know-who were here he'd have us fighting over define "many". All relative to your journey with TWI, I guess.
I do not want to get too specific for there will always be a detail that doesn't apply to the journey "you" took. But the groundwork for independent deliverance is my goal here.
I am still in the repair shop myself.
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waysider
I get what you're saying, Dot.
When I said I "disagreed", it was a bit rhetorical.
I wasn't really disagreeing with you. I was disagreeing with this part of the conclusion:
"They were the smart ones to leave."
Some of the ones who stayed were smart people also, but their decisions to stay may have been unwise.
In other words, the judgment falls on the decision itself, not the person who made it.
But, the monster was there regardless.
Peace?
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Dot Matrix
Posters:
I admit I have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. I admit I have been tricked and deceived. I am humbly before God asking for direction and healing -- I do not offer you -- YOUR healing. I offer you some of what I am learning about mine. May we each find our way to "health" and to those who are "there" congrats it was not a journey without struggle. I salute you!
(In some ways, I am replying to some PM's I got, in this public forum, so I may have things geared to a person who asked something more pointed then to the general reader -- although, I am merely sharing some "release" tools I got from understanding how giving your power to others actually works.)
I am relating to you some of what counseling has provided for ME. If you need more “you” specific help, then please go find help. If my general stuff can help you to “self” discovery then Praise God. I am in the "repair shop" myself understanding how I “danced” and why I "danced" to survive "sick" relationships. I am tearing apart my own life to discover WHY I gravitate to people who demand I "dance." ...HOW I get tricked into staying in the situations and how to avoid them in the future. Al-anon is very helpful as well as Celebrate Recovery if you cannot afford private therapy. I am fortunate that my Christian counselor stopped charging me a fee and has taken me on because as she stated, “I see something in you and I believe God wants me to continue seeing you until you find wellness.”
Not all things listed in any book/class/org are all me or YOU. They do not define all the “personal” journey, but I can apply the corporate thinking and flush out what being around “sick” people and organizations did to me. These things make the people orbiting around the “ill”--- ill themselves. They are crazy-makers. My goal is to find health, to repair and share my journey, as it may help others. My journey will never be exactly your journey but if we “share things” some may be beneficial – your job, should anyone decide to try a similar path as mine, is to discern out for yourself the “healing” you can apply in your own life and NOT apply the parts that do not apply --- That in itself is a portion of finding “self.”
http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP98/Lavick.html
This may help and some parts may apply to your understanding. Some were good for me to read. Some did not apply. But reading the "corporate" writings help me hewn out a personal victory... I did not try and make the unapplicable parts BE my problem because someone else said they might be -- this is a victory.
In the co-dependency there are two faces (and varying degrees) on the extreme end, I wanted to bring up, where some/few/many (whatever applies) of us are not as extrmeme in our co-dependency.
However:
Those who grab onto the “feel good” moment to preserve their “achievements and their grandiose identity”. You are addicted and cling to the “feel good” moment even though those moments are gone and mountains of truth have been provided for any reasonable person to become aware of the monster in the suit. You cling to the “up” moment and fight to stay there.
And those wrecked by them who cling to the identity of the victim. “They abused me therefore I get drunk all the time. They abused me therefore I hate God and anyone who mentions his lousy name. I am the way I am because of them.”
Yes, you were injured and they gave you MORE things to have to fight through and come back from. But to STAY there you are a sell out to the “down” they provided.
Either EXTREME is the violation of “self”.
The abused needs to GET HELP as they continue to flounder and with each “excessive drink” or “affair” to pretend you do not hurt. OR outburst against God or “all who believe” is the root of anger, frustration and STILL not having your power back. You want to become an atheist – fine. Do so on your terms not from a position of pain or anger. Do what YOU want after you recover “self.” (Again, this is not a one size fits all. It may apply to some and not to others. If it is not your shoe size, then by all means it is NOT your shoe.)
The victim gives it up by refusing to fight for health but rather gains an identity as the “icon of abuse” so they need the "abuse factor" to live on and on to have an excuse for their failures.
The “defender” of TWI, despite the reports of abuse and obvious detriment, because they need to preserve their identity of “once being something because they supported the answer, THE way, THE truth holding organization” etc, refuses to "SEE" and continues to defend.
You get the point.
Both are sick.
Waysider:
The peace between us was never gone or in jeopardy. Bless
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Dot Matrix
Among other things to look at my therapist wants me to read the Townsend/Cloud book on Boundaries
If it helps anyone, praise God!
http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take...r/dp/0310585902
http://www.treatment-centers.net/myblog/al-anon/index.html
http://www.amazon.ca/Boundaries-Cloud/dp/0...2731021-6837634
http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/dysfunctional.htm
http://www.cloudtownsend.com/
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Dot Matrix
(((Erkjohn)))
Ham... yeah... :)
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Tzaia
Dot - I have read most of the "boundaries" books - and own most of them. It took reading them twice before it started to sink in. FWIW, most of my boundary issues had little to do with my involvement in TWI. The hard part in TWI (and CES) was ignoring all the "helpful advice" on how to live my life while remaining "in". I was probably referred to as one of those "tripped-out" people, but chose to ignore it (for the most part) unless it was not subtle. Finally, I decided being a part of it and any offshoot on any level simply wasn't worth the effort.
Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be.
I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion.
And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).
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Dot Matrix
T-
What a declaration of health!! I hope one day we can all post our "recovery" from all of this. A lot of childhood things led some of us to TWI and they capitolized on the cracks.
Whatever it takes in a journey to find "self" and health is so cool to read. Thank you. You apparently did not need the "drug" to get your own "high" so to speak. You walked away from the snare!! Great story!
I am in "recovery"
Not just a "cult" recovery but a choices I made in life which led me to a cult "recovery".
I am just exhausted from all the "dancing" I have done. I fought the "snare" and always thought I fought it from a position of outside the "snare". When I woke up, I realized part of my own illusion was I thought I was not caught "IN" the snare. I thought I was helping others get out. When indeed, in my case, I was caught as well. How did I recognize I was in a/the snare? My treatment THERE(TWI) led me to seek out their abusive treatment of me (hot/cold) in every subsequent relationship I had..... I had to recognize I was NOT on the ouside of the snare viewing those who were caught but I was caught, myself, with them. Just a little different trap designed personally for me -- just like each trap is a personal one as well as "standard" in many ways. I was doing the same dance over and over and did not even really KNOW it.
One day, one of the wonderful male posters here kept saying, "What do YOU want? Who are you?"
I had no answers. I was lost as my anchors were sources "outside" myself.
Now, I look within to see what I need to fix IN me and I look "up" to God for direction... Not to a man or organization to let me know what God wants from me -- I go to the "man" himself.
That is probably all I can share. I hope it helps some. This is as far as I am in my understanding and recovery.
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Tzaia
Dot - I have read most of the "boundaries" books - and own most of them. It took reading them twice before it started to sink in. FWIW, most of my boundary issues had little to do with my involvement in TWI. The hard part in TWI (and CES) was ignoring all the "helpful advice" on how to live my life while remaining "in". I was probably referred to as one of those "tripped-out" people, but chose to ignore it (for the most part) unless it was not subtle. Finally, I decided being a part of it and any offshoot on any level simply wasn't worth the effort.
Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be.
I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion.
And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).
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Rejoice
In a nutshell, this is a profound discovery! :D
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Kevlar2000
ARTHUR:
Each evening, from December to December,
Before you drift to sleep upon your cot,
Think back on all the tales that you remember
Of Camelot.
Ask ev'ry person if he's heard the story,
And tell it strong and clear if he has not,
That once there was a fleeting wisp of glory
Called Camelot.
Camelot! Camelot!
Now say it out with pride and joy!
TOM:
Camelot! Camelot!
ARTHUR:
Yes, Camelot, my boy!
Where once it never rained till after sundown, (except at the Rock of Ages
K2K)
By eight a.m. the morning fog had flown...
Don't let it be forgot
That once there was a spot
For one brief shining moment that was known
As Camelot.
(From Lerner and Loewe's musical, Camelot)
At least in some people's minds, it was Camelot. It was a time of their lives in which they considered themselves to be at their "personal best". I myself have many good memories of my time in the Way; mostly because the vast majority of folks with whom I fellowshipped and hung out were nice, genuine people.
But as I look back, I can see the seeds and germination of control and domination going back to my earliest involvement. When I finally left TWI, my compliance with TWI policies and procedures was not only expected, it was demanded. Nevermind that I was neither a paid employee nor a participant in one of their "programs".
And that's why I won't ever consider hooking up or aligning with "splinter" groups. Instead of creating organizations that mirror or replicate the Way, the heads of these organizations should spend the rest of their lives examining how their participation in the Way enabled slavish groupthink devotion to an abusive, destructive con man, erasure of personal boundaries and good morals, diversion of freely-given moneys shared for the "movement of God's Word over the World" to the pursuit of perversion, and the psychological torture of falsely accusing someone of being in God's extreme disfavor.
Then practicing not doing it ever again.
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newlife
Thanks Dot for all of your posts!!! They are great and very much needed in my recovery.
We can learn from each other!!!
About my "friend"---I e-mailed her back with what I thought were good suggestions, things I've done in my life. She never responded. I guess it wasn't what she was expecting!!! We are just in two different places in our lives....I pray for her. Again thanks for all the support I've received regarding this situation.
And you know something, as much as I thought I could handle it, I realize now, there a huge risk in trying to be of help to her. I'm glad I didn't have to take it.
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Dot Matrix
Kevlar- I LOVE the Camelot reference... WOW
Newlife - Sometimes the best thing to do in life is to walk away. I have been in the "repair" shop with God crafting me and removing the broken parts. Anyway, I had a wonderful successful friend and his wife coming to my home. I set out to "REPAIR" things so I would be presentable. I sewed the end of a ripped pillow, I sat with blankets the dogs chewed and tried to fix them in vain. I had throw rugs they had one too may accidents on that had been washed 2000 times that looked so beaten up it was reflective of how I felt. And suddenly, I realized I do not have to FIX everything. I can throw it out and get new stuff. So, I did. And you know it was a small step for man and a giant step for mankind... OOPS wrong line. It was a small thing to do with giant delivering side affects. Somehow, I became NEW as well....
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RumRunner
Well I was wondering, (something I often do since I gave up actual thinking for lent) since we started with personal questions from Dorian - got twisted into the usual judge of all posts derailment and have settled into numerous discussions on failed relationships - anybody here have more to say/answer about Dorian's questions?
No don't get me wrong - there were plenty of insightful and noteworthy posts about relationships - I just don't want to leave Dorian hanging - this is the second thread he started which ended up derailed or modified or blah blah - but not offering addition answers or advice he is apparently looking for.
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excathedra
yes, i see your point rummie
i'm sorry dorian
i think i offered my email for your friend at the beginning of the thread -- not that that would really help since she doesn't know me
i'm not sure what to say. i'm sorry about your stress
if your friend thinks anything said "against" wierwille or the way is just "man" speak, it's hard to come up with something because it feels like her mind has a shield up already
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Dot Matrix
Your heartfelt question led us on a great adventure that really crystallized some answers for you if you were listening, which I believe you were.
You saw the nutty application of the "defend" the Way at all costs, including their own "sanity", even when faced with a poster, who logically laid things out, from the perspective of one who has thoroughly known the abuse and tried to expose the illness.
You saw how the voice of an injured person was ignored in the heartless rants of a defender. You saw how one person, did not let her open heart go unnoticed, and told NEWLIFE how awful it was that in all of this she lay bleeding and unnoticed.
I explained some therapeutic things that have opened up that explanation to the ailments of what has happened, from my adventures in TWI and since.
I think this “ride” your heart felt post started is your answer.
If your friend is a “sell-out,” as you can see here, there is nothing you can do to help your friend. For even the facts and the truths of ones who “lived” the horror show and have EXPOSED it go unheeded. You heard a little voice say she was abused and ignored. (You shared the abuse stories and have been ignored) And I shared how a therapist and a Doctor explained the “wild ride” of this cult may have taken place in some of our lives.
The answer: you know your friend. We do not. We know the monster that took your friend. If your friend is like the one “sell-out” poster who never listens and refuses to believe anything is wrong—then your friend will never see. If your friend is like the poster who saw and tried to help others then that will eventually happen, if your friend is “stuck” in an addiction to not have to change, then they will have to "hit bottom". If and when your friend is READY to repair – God will direct him/her to his repair shop with open arms. And God will place your friend in a loving recovery program he knows will work for your friend. Pretty much, you have done all you can. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.
IMO – Pray DorianGreen. Pray for your friend. I think your thread showed you much in the way in answers dear Dorian. Just MHO You are a GOOD friend and his/her success or failure is not on your shoulders -- you ARE a good friend no matter of the final outcome. (I say his/her so anyone reading can get help from your loving trying to help "her" heart)
(((Doriangreen)))
Like Dorothy in the wizard of Oz --- you had your answer all along dear Dorian.
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doriangreen
Thank you guys for everything, honestly just hearing your stories and advice give me hope. sometimes i feel like i am going crazy and doubt whether i really know what i am talking about....i guess that is what twi members try to make you feel. but it is encouraging to hear your advice and wisdom. thank you!
(ps i am girl, sorry i know my username makes it kind of confusing) :)
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