It was my house group last night. There were only about 10 of us. We discuss questions (prepared by the preacher) on the sermon, and anything else that arises. It can be lively, interesting, and goes off on interesting tangents.
To my enormous surprise, one of the men there, a lovely older man, John, talked about abuse in a church that he had belonged to, and he said that he'd been "excommunicated." He was banned from that church and also from any kind of housegroup. (This is a wonderfully kind, meek, committed man and when he prays aloud you can hear the deep love-relationship he has with God.) He bumped into the "minister" some time later and told him he forgave him. The minister's face went all kinds of red and he sputtered and was enraged. He couldn't take the forgiveness. How sad.
I think the apology meant a lot to John, too, even though the incident took place many years ago and he is well and truly over it.
But for some of us at the housegroup, where they hadn't seen this sort of stuff (much), it really didn't mean anything and they wondered whether Paul had the "right" to apologize on behalf of abuse by others. I said, if it was only for me, it was worthwhile; that's when John told his story.
Of the ten there - two (inc me) are cult survivors; one had been "excommunicated"; one had walked out from his (RC) church because of doctrinal issues; one is the associate pastor, who saw much legalism in his previous church; one was married to a stern legalistic minister (now divorced). That's just what I know; others are there for other reasons, and others of the group (who weren't there last night) have other experiences.
That's the difference between a genuine minister and false ministers. Genuine ministers are able to see the wounds of the sheep and apply dressings to heal.
False ministers cause the wounds, deny their involvement, refuse to acknowledge that there are any wounds, if confronted by the abundance of evidence of the wounds they blame the sheep all the while themselves subsisting on that which the sheep provide.
Also, their conscience is seared with a hot iron so they don't even see they are like that. Which is why you have to spell it out in terms a kindergartner can understand.
Genuine ministers behave like the gentleman you describe above. False ministers behave like the BOD in TWI.
Twinky...I really do appreciate what you are posting here but I have a question...
How can someone apologize for someone else? I understand the sentiment behind it but it leaves me a little cold. I'll accept an apology from someone when they are fessin' up to what THEY themselves did.
I recently had someone apologize to me for something (an ugly rumor) that was not started by her. I knew she wasn't the cause, but she had heard from her supervisor that I was incensed that the perpetrator would never come forward and apologize. I do know who the perpetrator is.
We were able to talk, and she told me that the rumor had hurt her, also. It amazed and impressed me that someone would apologize like that on behalf of someone else, even risking my anger at her. And yes, she has a reputation of being kind and self-effacing. Insert parallels to Christ here.
Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets.
At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed,
Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this:
I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized!
It was a spontaneous thing: the sermon is posted on the internet and the church is big enough that we have two identical services back to back in the morning. He didn’t say this the first time round, only at the second service, that I attended.
Perhaps because of the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and my own earlier post on this, just wanting an apology – this was so appropriate, so wonderful.
By this time, tears were leaking out of my eyes in a significant way. It was tears of thankfulness to my Father, tears of love and grace, tears of joy.
I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI.
But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it.
I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone there who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy!
To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it.
I am not the only cult escapee in this congregation. I know there are at least two Plymouth Brethren from different groups; don’t know who else, and there are other people who have come from legalistic church backgrounds of all denominations. Paul knows the damage that can be done.
Suggest if you want to comment on the apology, you do so on this thread and not on the WayGB thread
Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets.
At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed,
Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this:
I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized!....(snip)
I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI.
But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it.
I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone there who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy!
To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it.....(snip)
Great post Twinky - I'm glad you bumped it up....and a good reminder to appreciate former TWI clergy - and of course those who had served in any capacity - that now contribute to Grease Spot in telling the other side of the story....
...I just wanted to add something to what you talked about in the latter part of this post; I can't imagine an apology coming directly from top leadership of TWI being enough to resolve all the damage done to followers - although it would be a good place to begin...
perhaps for the time being Grease Spot may function as a surrogate "minister" or rather a "ministry " composed of decent, honest and caring folks intent on exposing these false prophets...speaking for myself, Grease Spot has done wonders toward a speedy recovery from life in a cult;
that's not to say I'm all healed and everything is peachy keen now...but my life is a million times better now since I left that cult...and that I now refer to TWI as a cult is a giant step in the recovery process. It's like finally getting out of an abusive relationship after realizing my people-picker was broken...or rather my church-picker was broken.
And to anyone still in TWI or offshoots all I have to say is physician heal thyself...quit thinking your god's gift to an ignorant world - open your eyes and take a good look at the damaging and long lasting effects of wierwille's legacy - - in your own life and in those you "minister" to.
Thank God there are decent, caring, ministers (and lay people) in congregations well outside TWI. Nobody in my church knows what I went through; it's never really arisen to talk about it. But I truly believe that church minister spoke as the spirit moved him, and brought healing to me and I believe to others as well. And nobody needs to know: God knows, and He can meet needs in private ways that help and heal without causing further hurt or even just embarrassment.
I am seriously thankful for the people in that church who just gave me space - patience and time - for the people in that church, and in other churches, and for my pre-TWI friends. People who have loved me quietly through a very difficult time when I was seriously unlikable.
Moving on from my church minister's apology, I'd suggest that it befits all of us to think of the words that come out of our mouths, that they minister grace and healing to other people. If we are responsive to the Spirit, and empathetic when people talk to us, we can help others without us even knowing what hurts them. God will give us the words that people need to hear [or see written down!].
In case there's still anyone wondering why this sort of thing happens FAR from twi and not NEAR (as in, not from splinter groups), twi damages the members in a number of ways. One is in what it teaches as practice and what it demonstrates by doing. By showing no compassion for others (the top cadre sometimes get some pathos, everyone else has to "renew their mind" or something) and by exerting no effort for those who are hurt, they show that we are to treat people like machines, and not like people. That can affect twi survivors in lots of ways.
As for ex-twi who fancy themselves leaders, it helps harden their hearts. They can even NEED compassion themselves (like when twi kicked them out or when they left), but they fail to understand the lesson they need to learn, which is that THEY will need compassion at points, and so will everyone else. So, they treat people like REVENUE SOURCES, and NOT like people who may suffer and need prayer, compassion, a shoulder to cry on, a sympathetic ear, someone to bring over dinner or help write a resume, or SOMETHING.
All the actual "ministering" to people, helping them and so on, all of that is done TO the alleged "minister". The "minister" never actually MINISTERS. He preaches some Bible, but when someone needs some help, it's the "minister" who gets some, never him lending a hand for the congregant. That's why we get endless mailing lists as ex-ministers hop from group to group as they wear out their welcome, ignorant and unrepentant as to why everyone thinks they have a heart of stone. They'll go to their graves and never get it.
All the actual "ministering" to people, helping them and so on, all of that is done TO the alleged "minister". The "minister" never actually MINISTERS. He preaches some Bible, but when someone needs some help, it's the "minister" who gets some, never him lending a hand for the congregant. That's why we get endless mailing lists as ex-ministers hop from group to group as they wear out their welcome, ignorant and unrepentant as to why everyone thinks they have a heart of stone. They'll go to their graves and never get it.
Not only that, but as I was completing a bachelor's degree in accounting in the mid-1980s, it became apparent to me (from the Book of Acts) that accountability in twi was bass-ackwards. The ministers were supposed to be accountable to those they were ministering to. But because twi consolidated (centralized) the power of its resources (ABS), they developed the misguided notion that the "leaves" were supposed to be accountable (subservient) to those at the root.
Not only that, but as I was completing a bachelor's degree in accounting in the mid-1980s, it became apparent to me (from the Book of Acts) that accountability in twi was bass-ackwards. The ministers were supposed to be accountable to those they were ministering to. But because twi consolidated (centralized) the power of its resources (ABS), they developed the misguided notion that the "leaves" were supposed to be accountable (subservient) to those at the root.
Yeah.......and twi's "way tree" was as counterfeit as a $3 bill.
The "gift ministries in the church" are ACCOUNTABLE to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head.......and then, are to serve honorably and uprightly in that One Body. Nearly everything about wierwille-doctrine and his centralized authority needs to be thrown in the trash.
Yeah.......and twi's "way tree" was as counterfeit as a $3 bill.
The "gift ministries in the church" are ACCOUNTABLE to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head.......and then, are to serve honorably and uprightly in that One Body. Nearly everything about wierwille-doctrine and his centralized authority needs to be thrown in the trash.
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JeffSjo
Dear Twinky,
I am very glad that this ministers words did so much good to your heart.
Thank you for sharing them too.
JEFF
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leafytwiglet
(((Hugs))) twinky. Appologys and healing come from all kinds of different sources someimes.
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Twinky
It was my house group last night. There were only about 10 of us. We discuss questions (prepared by the preacher) on the sermon, and anything else that arises. It can be lively, interesting, and goes off on interesting tangents.
To my enormous surprise, one of the men there, a lovely older man, John, talked about abuse in a church that he had belonged to, and he said that he'd been "excommunicated." He was banned from that church and also from any kind of housegroup. (This is a wonderfully kind, meek, committed man and when he prays aloud you can hear the deep love-relationship he has with God.) He bumped into the "minister" some time later and told him he forgave him. The minister's face went all kinds of red and he sputtered and was enraged. He couldn't take the forgiveness. How sad.
I think the apology meant a lot to John, too, even though the incident took place many years ago and he is well and truly over it.
But for some of us at the housegroup, where they hadn't seen this sort of stuff (much), it really didn't mean anything and they wondered whether Paul had the "right" to apologize on behalf of abuse by others. I said, if it was only for me, it was worthwhile; that's when John told his story.
Of the ten there - two (inc me) are cult survivors; one had been "excommunicated"; one had walked out from his (RC) church because of doctrinal issues; one is the associate pastor, who saw much legalism in his previous church; one was married to a stern legalistic minister (now divorced). That's just what I know; others are there for other reasons, and others of the group (who weren't there last night) have other experiences.
But what an enormous legacy of control/abuse.
That apology surely was needed.
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chockfull
That's the difference between a genuine minister and false ministers. Genuine ministers are able to see the wounds of the sheep and apply dressings to heal.
False ministers cause the wounds, deny their involvement, refuse to acknowledge that there are any wounds, if confronted by the abundance of evidence of the wounds they blame the sheep all the while themselves subsisting on that which the sheep provide.
Also, their conscience is seared with a hot iron so they don't even see they are like that. Which is why you have to spell it out in terms a kindergartner can understand.
Genuine ministers behave like the gentleman you describe above. False ministers behave like the BOD in TWI.
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excathedra
i'm done with ministers, but i have no problem with the father god
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twinky...I really do appreciate what you are posting here but I have a question...
How can someone apologize for someone else? I understand the sentiment behind it but it leaves me a little cold. I'll accept an apology from someone when they are fessin' up to what THEY themselves did.
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shazdancer
I recently had someone apologize to me for something (an ugly rumor) that was not started by her. I knew she wasn't the cause, but she had heard from her supervisor that I was incensed that the perpetrator would never come forward and apologize. I do know who the perpetrator is.
We were able to talk, and she told me that the rumor had hurt her, also. It amazed and impressed me that someone would apologize like that on behalf of someone else, even risking my anger at her. And yes, she has a reputation of being kind and self-effacing. Insert parallels to Christ here.
~ Shaz
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Twinky
Just bumping this up. For some reason, this thread has been on my heart lately. Perhaps there is someone here who needs to read this.
(I'm sure Grace VC will get to it eventually)
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, yes!! Bingo!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
You bet honey!!
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T-Bone
Great post Twinky - I'm glad you bumped it up....and a good reminder to appreciate former TWI clergy - and of course those who had served in any capacity - that now contribute to Grease Spot in telling the other side of the story....
...I just wanted to add something to what you talked about in the latter part of this post; I can't imagine an apology coming directly from top leadership of TWI being enough to resolve all the damage done to followers - although it would be a good place to begin...
perhaps for the time being Grease Spot may function as a surrogate "minister" or rather a "ministry " composed of decent, honest and caring folks intent on exposing these false prophets...speaking for myself, Grease Spot has done wonders toward a speedy recovery from life in a cult;
that's not to say I'm all healed and everything is peachy keen now...but my life is a million times better now since I left that cult...and that I now refer to TWI as a cult is a giant step in the recovery process. It's like finally getting out of an abusive relationship after realizing my people-picker was broken...or rather my church-picker was broken.
And to anyone still in TWI or offshoots all I have to say is physician heal thyself...quit thinking your god's gift to an ignorant world - open your eyes and take a good look at the damaging and long lasting effects of wierwille's legacy - - in your own life and in those you "minister" to.
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Twinky
Thanks, T-Bone.
Thank God there are decent, caring, ministers (and lay people) in congregations well outside TWI. Nobody in my church knows what I went through; it's never really arisen to talk about it. But I truly believe that church minister spoke as the spirit moved him, and brought healing to me and I believe to others as well. And nobody needs to know: God knows, and He can meet needs in private ways that help and heal without causing further hurt or even just embarrassment.
I am seriously thankful for the people in that church who just gave me space - patience and time - for the people in that church, and in other churches, and for my pre-TWI friends. People who have loved me quietly through a very difficult time when I was seriously unlikable.
Moving on from my church minister's apology, I'd suggest that it befits all of us to think of the words that come out of our mouths, that they minister grace and healing to other people. If we are responsive to the Spirit, and empathetic when people talk to us, we can help others without us even knowing what hurts them. God will give us the words that people need to hear [or see written down!].
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WordWolf
In case there's still anyone wondering why this sort of thing happens FAR from twi and not NEAR (as in, not from splinter groups), twi damages the members in a number of ways. One is in what it teaches as practice and what it demonstrates by doing. By showing no compassion for others (the top cadre sometimes get some pathos, everyone else has to "renew their mind" or something) and by exerting no effort for those who are hurt, they show that we are to treat people like machines, and not like people. That can affect twi survivors in lots of ways.
As for ex-twi who fancy themselves leaders, it helps harden their hearts. They can even NEED compassion themselves (like when twi kicked them out or when they left), but they fail to understand the lesson they need to learn, which is that THEY will need compassion at points, and so will everyone else. So, they treat people like REVENUE SOURCES, and NOT like people who may suffer and need prayer, compassion, a shoulder to cry on, a sympathetic ear, someone to bring over dinner or help write a resume, or SOMETHING.
All the actual "ministering" to people, helping them and so on, all of that is done TO the alleged "minister". The "minister" never actually MINISTERS. He preaches some Bible, but when someone needs some help, it's the "minister" who gets some, never him lending a hand for the congregant. That's why we get endless mailing lists as ex-ministers hop from group to group as they wear out their welcome, ignorant and unrepentant as to why everyone thinks they have a heart of stone. They'll go to their graves and never get it.
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Twinky
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Twinky
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Rocky
Not only that, but as I was completing a bachelor's degree in accounting in the mid-1980s, it became apparent to me (from the Book of Acts) that accountability in twi was bass-ackwards. The ministers were supposed to be accountable to those they were ministering to. But because twi consolidated (centralized) the power of its resources (ABS), they developed the misguided notion that the "leaves" were supposed to be accountable (subservient) to those at the root.
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skyrider
Yeah.......and twi's "way tree" was as counterfeit as a $3 bill.
The "gift ministries in the church" are ACCOUNTABLE to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head.......and then, are to serve honorably and uprightly in that One Body. Nearly everything about wierwille-doctrine and his centralized authority needs to be thrown in the trash.
.
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Grace Valerie Claire
The sooner, the better!!
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