"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
Of course,
independent from what vpw said over and over again,
there is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for this statement in EITHER form.
I Corinthians 12:2 certainly doesn't say it.
NIV You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
NASB You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
KJV Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Putting this in it's proper context, VPW was discussing these pagan's beliefs because someone "led" them into the worship of these mute idols. Certainly those "mute idols" could not speak for themselves, so someone else had to speak for them. (It sure is funny to see just how many people today want to "speak for VPW" and tell everybody what they think (or they believe) what "VPW said". But VPW is dead (in a sense he is also mute) and today he can't speak for himself! Do we sense some sort of parrallel going on?)
Ignoring all the other times he said it, vpw put in black and white
"No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught."
The meaning of that is plainly obvious to anyone who actually makes a reasonable attempt to understand it.
It's simple English.
If you believe something, it's because you were taught it.
You don't get further than you're taught-because you don't go further than you believe, and that's dependent upon what you were taught.
To the literate, intelligent person, all of this is unsupported.
vpw said "no one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught" and that's all a matter of
"where do you get that?" "Who says?"
vpw put a verse reference right next to it, then changed the subject.
Why?
To the literate, intelligent person, the answer is obvious.
vpw said that verse was supporting his claim.
But he didn't print the verse.
Why?
In this instance- as in MANY instances- vpw pulled some statement out of his...nose, and claimed it was supported in Scripture,
but since it wasn't, he changed the subject.
Of course, someone who is fixated on trying to excuse vpw for everything wrong he did, including "claim he was saying the same
thing as Scripture when he was making stuff up", ignoring what he said, and changing the subject's par for the course.
The verse itself was about Christians who WERE dedicated to idols.
vpw was limiting people's beliefs to only what they were taught-which was to HIS benefit, since he was the one teaching.
Yet, someone expects us to believe that's nothing like what he actually said- they're rewriting what he said in an effort
to get it to work.
Do we sense some sort of snow job coming on?
For the few who don't know the answer, the answer is "yes."
VPW was talking about someone rising beyond their believing, or believing beyond what one is taught. He wasn't talking about anybody going somewhere or someone going any place. To put this subject in it's proper context, we would be discussing the law of believing. Of course, the "law of believing" has also been attempted to be refuted here before, but only by someone elses's contextomy regarding the same subject.
Actually, he was talking about people NEVER rising beyond what they're taught.
If you want to bring in the so-called "LAW" of believing, please bring in a new thread,
or revive one of the many threads where it was already disproven beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
Of course, the disproving displeased you, but your refusal to believe what's plain is NOT the problem
of anyone talking sense.
Trying to claim his "LAW" of believing works leaves one to explain its continual failures,
like the hypochondriac who confesses great illness and is perfectly healthy,
and the man who confesses he will die shortly, and continues to complain year after year.
This is only a problem if one is committed to retaining silly doctrines that are easily-refuted.
The exact quote from PFAL is below. The context on the top of the page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
I want to thank you Oldiesman........thanks for reminding me that wierwille's pfal class was a mixed bag of scriptures and "law of believing" poppycock.
You danced and side-stepped my one little question. Obviously, you didn't want to broach the topic of that pfal page entitled "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear."
For one who is SO QUICK to defend wierwille............you were at a loss of words to defend it. Your silence spoke volumes, indeed. More evidence that the pfal class had alot of holes.
But........if you read this, and feel so inclined to "defend" that pfal stuff wherein "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear" is actually backed up by scripture, chapter and verse, I'd like to hear it. Kinda surprising to see you at such a loss for words........on something, presumeably, so simple.
Well, since it isn't scriptural..... maybe it went down something like this at TWI.
#1 Wierwille is the man of God for our day and time. (This isn't intended as sarcasm yet, I'm just stating it factually from TWI's perspective according to my own recollection.)
#2 Weirwille was taught the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century.
#3 TWI commonly referred to other Christian organizations as sell-outs or devilish. After all the whole world resides in darkness. (o.k., I was seriously tempted to be sarcastic with that last sentence... not yet)
So how TWI ended up applying this statement by Wierwille is that nobody in TWI will ever go any farther than Wierwille teaches them to.
That seems pretty consistent for little old intermediate class grad me. (a little sarcasm there)
Why if it wasn't for the blatant abuses of power and of the believers and also the consistent lying and hiding by TWI over the last few decades I'd be tempted to think everything at TWI was peachy. (sarcasm)
IT ENDED UP BEING JUST ANOTHER LEVER OF CONTROL FOR WIERWILLE TO SUBJEGATE PEOPLE WITH IMHO. ("H" being for HONEST in this case.)
I dunno guys. I mean it's a fairly common belief even among secular sociologists that we're all products of our cultures, environments, backgrounds, upbringing etc. The sad reality is, most of us believe what we are told to believe and then claim we have original ideas. Sorry to be so cynical...but it's true. That's why we have to be open to being wrong, as painful as that can be at times.
As to VPW's statement, "You can't go beyond what you're taught", I suppose you can, but it's not easy.
I think the point is Vic wanted us to see him as the MOG the teacher and we were the students who would learn to shut up and listen to his every word.
What we had learned in our past was nothing, null and void, compared to all his great knowlege. He was going to bestow upon us in all his wisdom the way we should think and live. Sort of like life according to VIC.
So we can't go beyond what we are taught in essence means don't think for yourselves -I'll do the thinking for you.
Then."show me the money". Next I want your life, heart, labor, commitment and on and on.
Yes, WTH and oldies, Wierwille said the exact quote, "You can't go beyond what you're taught" many times. (Thank you for the validation, waysider.)
The quote from the PFAL book, "no one believes beyond what he is taught," says pretty much the same thing, WTH. (Thanks, WW.) And just to be clear, the phrase from the book is a crock, too. People are "taught" by lots more than The Teacher, or any teacher. They don't have to be "led" in order to formulate a belief system, and more to the point, make decisions on how to behave and what consequences to expect (which is the essence of the so-called "law of believing").
Unless you were raised in a cave, you have been exposed to multiple examples of moral and immoral behavior. Unless your brain or your psyche is so impaired that you can't reason, you choose what to do, based on all the information you have gathered in the past. Some of that information is from "teachers" such as pastors, professors, and parents. Some of that information is learned through observing the examples of others and remembering your own experiences. By the time you are an adult, your brain is pretty much mature enough to start to consciously synthesize what you have been taught with what works for you.
At that point, it is your choice if you abandon your own reason and go with only one point of view, whether Wierwille's, your parent's, or your own lusts.
I guess I had it wrong all these years (yea for me!) because I remembered it as "You can't go any further than what you know." As in the more you know, the further you go.
Not being able to go any further than you're taught is really pretty limiting, especially when the "teaching" is limited.
Thanks folks.......for the many responses on this thread.
Just for clarification, this thread split into two discussions:
1) VPW: "You can't go beyond what you're taught"...........the main focus of this thread.
2) The Believer's Enemy -- Fear" ......... a side-issue that Oldies brought forward with the pfal quote.
When he and I discussed this back and forth, I thought that he was sarcastically toying with me.......but he wasn't. Oldies admitted that it was an error in PFAL. And, one of the reasons why I believe that this is such a big deal......is because SO MUCH of wierwille's ministry spawns off his "law of believing" (believing/fear) base.
Heck, the corps were strongly confronted time and time again at corps weeks........because our "believing" could not STOP THE RAIN.
Heck, the corps were strongly confronted time and time again at corps weeks........because our "believing" could not STOP THE RAIN.
<_<
On two separate occassions I apparently believed to stop the rain. Then Martindale taught that one couldn't believe to stop the rain. I was kind of afraid to try after that.
On two separate occassions I apparently believed to stop the rain. Then Martindale taught that one couldn't believe to stop the rain. I was kind of afraid to try after that.
LOL. It makes you wonder if his next teaching might proclaim that only the devil spirit possessed could stop the rain
I thought that martindale got mad at a roa because the corps,could not stop the rain,Same as living vic,most everbody got drenched cept me,I had a new tent and higher ground.
Ole vic never went beyond a ccffee cup full of drambuie,and a cigarette.
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WordWolf
Ignoring all the other times he said it, vpw put in black and white
"No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught."
The meaning of that is plainly obvious to anyone who actually makes a reasonable attempt to understand it.
It's simple English.
If you believe something, it's because you were taught it.
You don't get further than you're taught-because you don't go further than you believe, and that's dependent upon what you were taught.
To the literate, intelligent person, all of this is unsupported.
vpw said "no one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught" and that's all a matter of
"where do you get that?" "Who says?"
vpw put a verse reference right next to it, then changed the subject.
Why?
To the literate, intelligent person, the answer is obvious.
vpw said that verse was supporting his claim.
But he didn't print the verse.
Why?
In this instance- as in MANY instances- vpw pulled some statement out of his...nose, and claimed it was supported in Scripture,
but since it wasn't, he changed the subject.
Of course, someone who is fixated on trying to excuse vpw for everything wrong he did, including "claim he was saying the same
thing as Scripture when he was making stuff up", ignoring what he said, and changing the subject's par for the course.
The verse itself was about Christians who WERE dedicated to idols.
vpw was limiting people's beliefs to only what they were taught-which was to HIS benefit, since he was the one teaching.
Yet, someone expects us to believe that's nothing like what he actually said- they're rewriting what he said in an effort
to get it to work.
Do we sense some sort of snow job coming on?
For the few who don't know the answer, the answer is "yes."
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WordWolf
Actually, he was talking about people NEVER rising beyond what they're taught.
If you want to bring in the so-called "LAW" of believing, please bring in a new thread,
or revive one of the many threads where it was already disproven beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
Of course, the disproving displeased you, but your refusal to believe what's plain is NOT the problem
of anyone talking sense.
Trying to claim his "LAW" of believing works leaves one to explain its continual failures,
like the hypochondriac who confesses great illness and is perfectly healthy,
and the man who confesses he will die shortly, and continues to complain year after year.
This is only a problem if one is committed to retaining silly doctrines that are easily-refuted.
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cman
Good stuff WordWolf.
Galatians 1:12 kills the thing anyways.
Getting to the point of why most everyone took the class.
It's just different, speaking and hearing by the spirit,
then the usual way of learning.
There's something else going on.
And each person will experience it soon enough.
The pfal class is a man's shot at it, missing the mark.
As well as however we tried while involved...mostly.
In it's own time the spirit will meet spirit.
Which is the same spirit.
And has already for many.
Yet still unnoticed, as a thief in the night.
the Coming continues to progress
For each person.
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skyrider
I want to thank you Oldiesman........thanks for reminding me that wierwille's pfal class was a mixed bag of scriptures and "law of believing" poppycock.
You danced and side-stepped my one little question. Obviously, you didn't want to broach the topic of that pfal page entitled "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear."
For one who is SO QUICK to defend wierwille............you were at a loss of words to defend it. Your silence spoke volumes, indeed. More evidence that the pfal class had alot of holes.
But........if you read this, and feel so inclined to "defend" that pfal stuff wherein "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear" is actually backed up by scripture, chapter and verse, I'd like to hear it. Kinda surprising to see you at such a loss for words........on something, presumeably, so simple.
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oldiesman
No I didn't. I said I agreed with you that "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear" is not in the scriptures.
So what's your point? Do you want a medal that you found something in PFAL that is not in the scriptures?
How about a standing ovation? Adulation? I don't know what your point is, really.
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skyrider
My point?
I thought this was a DISCUSSION FORUM.
:)
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oldiesman
OK, discuss. :)
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waysider
"You can't go beyond what you're taught."
Not only is it not Biblical, it contradicts logic, common sense and the history of the advancement of Mankind.
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JeffSjo
Well, since it isn't scriptural..... maybe it went down something like this at TWI.
#1 Wierwille is the man of God for our day and time. (This isn't intended as sarcasm yet, I'm just stating it factually from TWI's perspective according to my own recollection.)
#2 Weirwille was taught the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century.
#3 TWI commonly referred to other Christian organizations as sell-outs or devilish. After all the whole world resides in darkness. (o.k., I was seriously tempted to be sarcastic with that last sentence... not yet)
So how TWI ended up applying this statement by Wierwille is that nobody in TWI will ever go any farther than Wierwille teaches them to.
That seems pretty consistent for little old intermediate class grad me. (a little sarcasm there)
Why if it wasn't for the blatant abuses of power and of the believers and also the consistent lying and hiding by TWI over the last few decades I'd be tempted to think everything at TWI was peachy. (sarcasm)
IT ENDED UP BEING JUST ANOTHER LEVER OF CONTROL FOR WIERWILLE TO SUBJEGATE PEOPLE WITH IMHO. ("H" being for HONEST in this case.)
(edited for spelling)
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Broken Arrow
I dunno guys. I mean it's a fairly common belief even among secular sociologists that we're all products of our cultures, environments, backgrounds, upbringing etc. The sad reality is, most of us believe what we are told to believe and then claim we have original ideas. Sorry to be so cynical...but it's true. That's why we have to be open to being wrong, as painful as that can be at times.
As to VPW's statement, "You can't go beyond what you're taught", I suppose you can, but it's not easy.
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polar bear
Good topic Skyrider-
I think the point is Vic wanted us to see him as the MOG the teacher and we were the students who would learn to shut up and listen to his every word.
What we had learned in our past was nothing, null and void, compared to all his great knowlege. He was going to bestow upon us in all his wisdom the way we should think and live. Sort of like life according to VIC.
So we can't go beyond what we are taught in essence means don't think for yourselves -I'll do the thinking for you.
Then."show me the money". Next I want your life, heart, labor, commitment and on and on.
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Jim
Lots of great stuff here, presented far more eloquently that I could.
My only response is what I've said before..."My dogs go far way beyond what they are taught"
Wierwille seemed to be quite the master at twisting scripture to give himself the upper hand over the followers.
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Twinky
"You can't go beyond what you've been taught."
"If you need answers, please write: The Teacher, PO Box ###, New Knoxville..."
Don't even consider:
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shazdancer
Wow, thanks skyrider, cool thread.
Yes, WTH and oldies, Wierwille said the exact quote, "You can't go beyond what you're taught" many times. (Thank you for the validation, waysider.)
The quote from the PFAL book, "no one believes beyond what he is taught," says pretty much the same thing, WTH. (Thanks, WW.) And just to be clear, the phrase from the book is a crock, too. People are "taught" by lots more than The Teacher, or any teacher. They don't have to be "led" in order to formulate a belief system, and more to the point, make decisions on how to behave and what consequences to expect (which is the essence of the so-called "law of believing").
Unless you were raised in a cave, you have been exposed to multiple examples of moral and immoral behavior. Unless your brain or your psyche is so impaired that you can't reason, you choose what to do, based on all the information you have gathered in the past. Some of that information is from "teachers" such as pastors, professors, and parents. Some of that information is learned through observing the examples of others and remembering your own experiences. By the time you are an adult, your brain is pretty much mature enough to start to consciously synthesize what you have been taught with what works for you.
At that point, it is your choice if you abandon your own reason and go with only one point of view, whether Wierwille's, your parent's, or your own lusts.
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Tzaia
I guess I had it wrong all these years (yea for me!) because I remembered it as "You can't go any further than what you know." As in the more you know, the further you go.
Not being able to go any further than you're taught is really pretty limiting, especially when the "teaching" is limited.
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skyrider
Thanks folks.......for the many responses on this thread.
Just for clarification, this thread split into two discussions:
1) VPW: "You can't go beyond what you're taught"...........the main focus of this thread.
2) The Believer's Enemy -- Fear" ......... a side-issue that Oldies brought forward with the pfal quote.
When he and I discussed this back and forth, I thought that he was sarcastically toying with me.......but he wasn't. Oldies admitted that it was an error in PFAL. And, one of the reasons why I believe that this is such a big deal......is because SO MUCH of wierwille's ministry spawns off his "law of believing" (believing/fear) base.
Heck, the corps were strongly confronted time and time again at corps weeks........because our "believing" could not STOP THE RAIN.
<_<
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Oakspear
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Jim
LOL. It makes you wonder if his next teaching might proclaim that only the devil spirit possessed could stop the rain
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frank123lol
I thought that martindale got mad at a roa because the corps,could not stop the rain,Same as living vic,most everbody got drenched cept me,I had a new tent and higher ground.
Ole vic never went beyond a ccffee cup full of drambuie,and a cigarette.
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mstar1
I really dont care if anyone's possessed or unpossessed--can someone stop this damn winter already?
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Ham
Its over only when HE says it's over..
Hmm. well, it's been what.... almost eight weeks. Maybe he forgot to put a zero on the end of that prediction..
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