For vpw........or anyone wanting to stand at the top of a class-based ministry....the statement, "You can't go beyond what you're taught" is SO CONVEEEENIENT.
Pick a verse and laud it to the skies (like Philip and the eunuch).....and you're off to the races.
To dissect this statement, lots of things come to mind:
1) What is the emphasis of the word "taught?"
2) What about all that you experience? Parental upbringing? Observations?
3) Why did the Apostle Paul go to Arabia after his conversion on the road to Damascus?
4) Why did Paul then go to Damascus and NOT to Jerusalem until some three years later?
5) Who does the teaching? Can holy spirit within receive teaching NOT from man?
6) Why does it seem that this pfal statement slighted "holy spirit teaches you" and elevates man's teaching?
7) Surely there are plenty of verses one COULD HAVE TAUGHT that emphasize the holy spirit teaches you, no?
<_<
Skyrider,
Might as well get the quote accurate before you discuss it.
The exact quote from PFAL is below. The context on the top of the page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2.
Might as well get the quote accurate before you discuss it.
The exact quote from PFAL is below. The context on the top of the page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
So, Oldies.........it doesn't really matter what wierwille said over and over again.....it's the "sterilized version from pfal" that's WHAT COUNTS.
We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2.
So it's all OUR doing, forget God, The Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit.
They can't do nothing huh?
THATS A MAJOR ERROR OF PFAL!!!!!
Galatians
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Quite out of pfal's vision and teachings.
-We were not taught about the revelation of Jesus Christ.-
How these men including Jesus spoke by the Spirit was not covered.
How they learned and how it happens is not in pfal.
The context on the top of the page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
Another thing.......
Oldies,......where in the scriptures does it say "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear".........????
A quick search show lots of scriptures pointing to the believer's enemy......satan, devil, death, etc. And, please quote chapter and verse...........not some Job 3:25 side-note. See examples below:
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
Of course,
independent from what vpw said over and over again,
there is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for this statement in EITHER form.
I Corinthians 12:2 certainly doesn't say it.
NIV You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
NASB You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
KJV Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
So, Oldies.........it doesn't really matter what wierwille said over and over again.....it's the "sterilized version from pfal" that's WHAT COUNTS.
<_<
Oldies was simply pointing out your contextomy [contextomy = "the practice of quoting out of context". i.e. a logical fallacy, false attribution]. It involves quoting someone out of context to misrepresent their position (making a position more simplistic or extreme) thereby making the position easier to refute. I really can't give you credit for coming up with this contextomy on your own accord, just the credit for passing it on.
VPW was talking about someone rising beyond their believing, or believing beyond what one is taught. He wasn't talking about anybody going somewhere or someone going any place. To put this subject in it's proper context, we would be discussing the law of believing. Of course, the "law of believing" has also been attempted to be refuted here before, but only by someone elses's contextomy regarding the same subject.
"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
Of course,
independent from what vpw said over and over again,
there is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for this statement in EITHER form.
I Corinthians 12:2 certainly doesn't say it.
NIV You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
NASB You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
KJV Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Putting this in it's proper context, VPW was discussing these pagan's beliefs because someone "led" them into the worship of these mute idols. Certainly those "mute idols" could not speak for themselves, so someone else had to speak for them. (It sure is funny to see just how many people today want to "speak for VPW" and tell everybody what they think (or they believe) what "VPW said". But VPW is dead (in a sense he is also mute) and today he can't speak for himself! Do we sense some sort of parrallel going on?)
Oldies was simply pointing out your contextomy [contextomy = "the practice of quoting out of context". i.e. a logical fallacy, false attribution]. It involves quoting someone out of context to misrepresent their position (making a position more simplistic or extreme) thereby making the position easier to refute. I really can't give you credit for coming up with this contextomy on your own accord, just the credit for passing it on.
VPW was talking about someone rising beyond their believing, or believing beyond what one is taught. He wasn't talking about anybody going somewhere or someone going any place. To put this subject in it's proper context, we would be discussing the law of believing. Of course, the "law of believing" has also been attempted to be refuted here before, but only by someone elses's contextomy regarding the same subject.
Sheeeesh............first of all, wierwille's life extended BEYOND the pfal filming, no?
Secondly, some of us corps heard the guy in MANY DIFFERENT SETTINGS.......corps meetings, campfires, after-meetings, staff meetings, etc.......state the above quote. Your implication of contextomy does not apply.
Thirdly, like cman stated above..........Gal. 1:11,12 was always side-stepped. Why? It directed the *teaching......ie revelation* came by Jesus Christ.
Fourthly, this thread is NOT about pfal. This thread is about what wierwille SAID....(refer back to point #2)
Sheeeesh............first of all, wierwille's life extended BEYOND the pfal filming, no?
Secondly, some of us corps heard the guy in MANY DIFFERENT SETTINGS.......corps meetings, campfires, after-meetings, staff meetings, etc.......state the above quote. Your implication of contextomy does not apply.
Thirdly, like cman stated above..........Gal. 1:11,12 was always side-stepped. Why? It directed the *teaching......ie revelation* came by Jesus Christ.
Fourthly, this thread is NOT about pfal. This thread is about what wierwille SAID....(refer back to point #2)
<_<
You should go back and re-read my edited post about people "wanting to speak" for VPW.
Oldies,......where in the scriptures does it say "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear".........????
A quick search show lots of scriptures pointing to the believer's enemy......satan, devil, death, etc. And, please quote chapter and verse...........not some Job 3:25 side-note. See examples below:
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
Oldies.........when you get to this, I'd like to hear your answer.
Oldies,......where in the scriptures does it say "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear".........????
A quick search show lots of scriptures pointing to the believer's enemy......satan, devil, death, etc. And, please quote chapter and verse...........not some Job 3:25 side-note. See examples below:
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
Why would you accept it to have any Biblical significance if it can't be backed by "chapter and verse" or at least something of Biblical relevance to support it?
By the way, Wierwille did, indeed, say "You can't go beyond what you are taught.", in addition to the stated quote involving "believing". One such quote is on an SNS tape and has been documented here many times.
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rascal
Absolutely!
Another lie bites the dust :)
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oldiesman
Skyrider,
Might as well get the quote accurate before you discuss it.
The exact quote from PFAL is below. The context on the top of the page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
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skyrider
"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
So, Oldies.........it doesn't really matter what wierwille said over and over again.....it's the "sterilized version from pfal" that's WHAT COUNTS.
<_<
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cman
So it's all OUR doing, forget God, The Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit.
They can't do nothing huh?
THATS A MAJOR ERROR OF PFAL!!!!!
Galatians
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Quite out of pfal's vision and teachings.
-We were not taught about the revelation of Jesus Christ.-
How these men including Jesus spoke by the Spirit was not covered.
How they learned and how it happens is not in pfal.
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skyrider
Another thing.......
Oldies,......where in the scriptures does it say "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear".........????
A quick search show lots of scriptures pointing to the believer's enemy......satan, devil, death, etc. And, please quote chapter and verse...........not some Job 3:25 side-note. See examples below:
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
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WordWolf
"We are today what we are and where we are because of our believing. We will be tomorrow what and where our believing takes us. No one rises beyond what he believes and no one believes beyond what he is taught. I Corinthians 12:2."
Of course,
independent from what vpw said over and over again,
there is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for this statement in EITHER form.
I Corinthians 12:2 certainly doesn't say it.
NIV You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
NASB You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
KJV Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
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What The Hey
Oldies was simply pointing out your contextomy [contextomy = "the practice of quoting out of context". i.e. a logical fallacy, false attribution]. It involves quoting someone out of context to misrepresent their position (making a position more simplistic or extreme) thereby making the position easier to refute. I really can't give you credit for coming up with this contextomy on your own accord, just the credit for passing it on.
VPW was talking about someone rising beyond their believing, or believing beyond what one is taught. He wasn't talking about anybody going somewhere or someone going any place. To put this subject in it's proper context, we would be discussing the law of believing. Of course, the "law of believing" has also been attempted to be refuted here before, but only by someone elses's contextomy regarding the same subject.
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What The Hey
Putting this in it's proper context, VPW was discussing these pagan's beliefs because someone "led" them into the worship of these mute idols. Certainly those "mute idols" could not speak for themselves, so someone else had to speak for them. (It sure is funny to see just how many people today want to "speak for VPW" and tell everybody what they think (or they believe) what "VPW said". But VPW is dead (in a sense he is also mute) and today he can't speak for himself! Do we sense some sort of parrallel going on?)
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skyrider
Sheeeesh............first of all, wierwille's life extended BEYOND the pfal filming, no?
Secondly, some of us corps heard the guy in MANY DIFFERENT SETTINGS.......corps meetings, campfires, after-meetings, staff meetings, etc.......state the above quote. Your implication of contextomy does not apply.
Thirdly, like cman stated above..........Gal. 1:11,12 was always side-stepped. Why? It directed the *teaching......ie revelation* came by Jesus Christ.
Fourthly, this thread is NOT about pfal. This thread is about what wierwille SAID....(refer back to point #2)
<_<
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What The Hey
You should go back and re-read my edited post about people "wanting to speak" for VPW.
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skyrider
Is English your second language...??
I heard wierwille say "You can't go beyond what you're taught"....in corps meetings, campfire fellowships, etc.
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skyrider
Oldies.........when you get to this, I'd like to hear your answer.
Thanks.
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oldiesman
What's the question?
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skyrider
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oldiesman
Can you make larger print I can't see. :)
Your message appears to be correct, and the point is?
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skyrider
This is a simple question.
According to your post above (and quoted below)........the pfal page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
Where is this in the scripture? Chapter and verse please.
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oldiesman
Skyrider,
I agree with you, it is not in scripture.
What's the point?
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skyrider
Isn't it obvious?
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oldiesman
I am not a mind reader.
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skyrider
Your PFAL page.....top of page was "The Believer's Enemy -- Fear"
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oldiesman
Right.
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skyrider
Chapter and verse?
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oldiesman
Why?
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waysider
Why would you accept it to have any Biblical significance if it can't be backed by "chapter and verse" or at least something of Biblical relevance to support it?
By the way, Wierwille did, indeed, say "You can't go beyond what you are taught.", in addition to the stated quote involving "believing". One such quote is on an SNS tape and has been documented here many times.
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