I agree with potato on this one and not just because I like spuds.
Apparently, there were instances where people were given something with a purpose and verbal instructions. BUT in a court of law, verbal instructions and verbal agreements are usually as good as the paper they're written on. Maybe there were paper instructions, but that is not a contract.
To my knowledge, back in the day there wasn't a whole lot of signing of contracts for property and all that. Things were distributed and sold or not sold or used or not used or given away or not. I believe a local planetarium I used to live near received a gifted copy or JCourPS by the local limb coordinator. We all found out years later when organizing an event there and what do ya know, they had heard of us and brought out the book.
Now it is the burden of TWI, if they really care, to produce the documents that show that there is no way for this person to legally have these tapes and hence are selling stolen goods.
You may think there is an absolute right and wrong, OM, but YOU DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH PEOPLE OBTAINED TAPES AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THIS PERSON OBTAINED THE TAPES.
This whole thing is rather ironic given that two of the defenders of the Way here are the ones using the same practices that they accuse others of defaming the name of their "father in da word" with. ie accusing this person of stealing with no actual proof!
Fact is PFAL as a class was the property of the Way, but at one time didn't care so much about other people getting their hands on the material. There were no contracts that I know of and they could do with their property as they pleased and no on here has put up anything other than speculation. Anyone other than Galen have any actual first hand experience of receiving tapes? DWBH probably. What do ya say?
If this person didn't illegally steal the material, then legally they can sell it.
Copyright is not proof of ownership or of personal property. It is protection against copying or reproducing in some way and then distributing it.
I was thinking what twinky was thinking actually. If the decimals on the page are in fact correct, then maybe this person knows that TWI of paranoia is the only person/group around that would actually pay 5000 smackers to get these tapes off the streets. Don't want it getting in the wrong hands, ya know.
very unlikely. they'd have to prove they own the set to get eBay to take action against a seller like that.
This item has ended.
Really??? Looks Quite likely to me ............. As I predicted it would not last long. Apparently we found out who has the rights despite the armchair lawyer who thinks they know. You might want to call EBay and see if they buy your first sale theory. Some people just won't listen.
Correction all YOU know is that the item ended. Do you think he suddenly did not want to sell the item? PLEASE.........Your not that dumb WW. Yeah I'm so sure he said to himself one day... Self .... I think I'll list an item on EBay so in a few days I can end it yeah that will be real cool.
I called them (the trunk office) and asked what their position on this was, and they told me. Their position is, it is their property. I agree ... because from what I know (and you know this is true, being in that position), twi always was the property owner of the tapes and the class was never meant to be sold individually to anyone. So I can be called names but to me, what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Because they did wrong doesn't justify another wrongdoing to them. Bad behavior doesn't justify more bad behavior.
OM, thanks for reaffirming my low opinion of you. It's somehow comforting to know that my contempt was not misplaced.
Oh, and don't look now WD, but he's got it relisted.
While I think his appraisal ability is sorely lacking, he's clearly not intimidated by baseless threats.
I'm still wondering though, is there anybody that gives a chit about this? To me it's sorta like knowing the secret to "sawing a woman in half" or some other hackneyed trick. Once you know what's really going on, why would you want to still pretend otherwise? Really peculiar...
uhhh... there is at least one other possibility. The guy selling the set could have ended the auction because of the 'warning' posted on his site.
Dear classyguy620,
Some jerk on greasespot just announced that he alerted The Way to this listing. I wanted to let you know because I support your right to sell your property as you see fit. If TWI does not have a written contract that you signed saying you borrowed the tapes, then you own them and they can't stop you from selling them, according to first sale doctrine and Vernor v. Autodesk decision that shrink-wrapped EULAs are not binding. basicall, no signed contract, no claim to property.
Then again... suppose someone did offer the 5 Grand?
You're not jumping to conclusions without proof now WD, are you?
Or did you get revelation? (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
i don't get to ebay ever...........really wary of it, though i know several folks who buy and sell there actively.........is it a large community of people?.............who would "the jerk" be to whom that poster referred to?.......anyone we might know????..................peace.
Here's the name of the seller, DWBH. It was on page one of this thread. :)
Does anyone know who D@v1d Schl31ch3r is? He's the "owner" of the phone number.
You're not jumping to conclusions without proof now WD, are you?
Or did you get revelation? (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
"I've got a cookie jar and NO, I won't let you reach into it!"
To me it's sorta like knowing the secret to "sawing a woman in half" or some other hackneyed trick. Once you know what's really going on, why would you want to still pretend otherwise? Really peculiar...
You may think there is an absolute right and wrong, OM, but YOU DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH PEOPLE OBTAINED TAPES AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THIS PERSON OBTAINED THE TAPES.
This whole thing is rather ironic given that two of the defenders of the Way here are the ones using the same practices that they accuse others of defaming the name of their "father in da word" with. ie accusing this person of stealing with no actual proof!
Lindyhopper,
You have applied a false accusation and misrepresented my position... I never said this person stole anything. For all I know, he bought it from someone else who bought it from someone else. What I am saying is these tapes never were meant to be sold or given to private parties and most likely left twi's hands under less than legal circumstances. Could qualify as stolen merchandise. As such, like them or not, they are twi's property and twi does have some rights if they wish to pursue them.
Yes, I will defend the way when they are stolen from just like I'll defend anyone else who gets stolen from because theft is wrong. Their past sins are not an excuse ... all theft is still wrong, period. You may hate twi all you desire, but their bad behavior does not justify additional bad behavior.
Yes, I will defend the way when they are stolen from just like I'll defend anyone else who gets stolen from because theft is wrong. Their past sins are not an excuse ... all theft is still wrong, period. You may hate twi all you desire, but their bad behavior does not justify additional bad behavior.
Mr. Kettle... calling Mr. Kettle... There's a Mr. Pot on the phone for you.
Oh hell when have you ever defended someone whom twi has stolen from?
Tattling to twi who owes everything that they have to somebody ELSES efforts...who stole everything that they have themselves......My my... weren`t you a little hero!
It was a creepy thing to do, regardless of how you attempt to justify it.
Actually no, I have to admit that I greatly modified my disgust and contempt for your reprehensible action in this particular instance. I just wish that you could have seen it in the original ;)
What I am saying is these tapes never were meant to be sold or given to private parties and most likely left twi's hands under less than legal circumstances. Could qualify as stolen merchandise. As such, like them or not, they are twi's property and twi does have some rights if they wish to pursue them.
</snip>
twi doesn't actually have a legal right to disregard copyright law and make up special rules for themselves so they can claim ownership of published materials that they distribute. could qualify as stolen merchandise, you assert? I guess they'd have to take it to court and show the contract proving they own the property and that a crime has been committed. of course they have the right to do that, but their actual "rights" to property which has changed hands must be established in court in the face of evidence that puts their claim of ownership in questionable light.
Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have stopped the listing of those tapes. I'm leaning towards can't.
Now that most people don't care what TWI thinks, threats just don't have the power they used to have.
2. keep it out of the hands of "heathens", researchers in strange religions or worse..
3. Save themselves from identification with in the best words possible, a doctrinal embarassment..
its only a measely 5k.. cmon guys, get with it..
I mean really.. how much money did this particular set of tapes actually bring in da *ministry* for you, in the long run? Figure 85.00 a shot for about a hundred people give or take, then of those the tithes and "abundant sharing" through the years?
Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have stopped the listing of those tapes. I'm leaning towards can't.
Now that most people don't care what TWI thinks, threats just don't have the power they used to have.
I wonder what this means to them in terms of the rest of the classes.. with no clear verbiage about distribution and such..
I hear there are lots of legitimately acquired copies of almost EVERYTHING they "published" floating around..
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Tzaia
I've already supplied the name of the guy near the top. The 3s are e; the 1s are i; and the @ is an a. I did a reverse lookup of the phone number.
potato
BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!
Tzaia
Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have
lindyhopper
I agree with potato on this one and not just because I like spuds.
Apparently, there were instances where people were given something with a purpose and verbal instructions. BUT in a court of law, verbal instructions and verbal agreements are usually as good as the paper they're written on. Maybe there were paper instructions, but that is not a contract.
To my knowledge, back in the day there wasn't a whole lot of signing of contracts for property and all that. Things were distributed and sold or not sold or used or not used or given away or not. I believe a local planetarium I used to live near received a gifted copy or JCourPS by the local limb coordinator. We all found out years later when organizing an event there and what do ya know, they had heard of us and brought out the book.
Now it is the burden of TWI, if they really care, to produce the documents that show that there is no way for this person to legally have these tapes and hence are selling stolen goods.
You may think there is an absolute right and wrong, OM, but YOU DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH PEOPLE OBTAINED TAPES AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THIS PERSON OBTAINED THE TAPES.
This whole thing is rather ironic given that two of the defenders of the Way here are the ones using the same practices that they accuse others of defaming the name of their "father in da word" with. ie accusing this person of stealing with no actual proof!
Fact is PFAL as a class was the property of the Way, but at one time didn't care so much about other people getting their hands on the material. There were no contracts that I know of and they could do with their property as they pleased and no on here has put up anything other than speculation. Anyone other than Galen have any actual first hand experience of receiving tapes? DWBH probably. What do ya say?
If this person didn't illegally steal the material, then legally they can sell it.
Copyright is not proof of ownership or of personal property. It is protection against copying or reproducing in some way and then distributing it.
I was thinking what twinky was thinking actually. If the decimals on the page are in fact correct, then maybe this person knows that TWI of paranoia is the only person/group around that would actually pay 5000 smackers to get these tapes off the streets. Don't want it getting in the wrong hands, ya know.
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doojable
I may be wrong. but is anyone else reminded of the close-minded mentality that permeated TWI?
That being:
'I have to be my brother's keeper so I'll make sure he's "right" and "righteous" and I'll get involved in his business.'
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WhiteDove
This item has ended.
Really??? Looks Quite likely to me .............
As I predicted it would not last long. Apparently we found out who has the rights despite the armchair lawyer who thinks they know. You might want to call EBay and see if they buy your first sale theory. Some people just won't listen.
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WordWolf
All we know is "the item has ended."
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WhiteDove
Correction all YOU know is that the item ended. Do you think he suddenly did not want to sell the item? PLEASE.........Your not that dumb WW. Yeah I'm so sure he said to himself one day... Self .... I think I'll list an item on EBay so in a few days I can end it yeah that will be real cool.
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WhiteDove
Auction Ended
Naw there probably is no connection here............
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George Aar
OM, thanks for reaffirming my low opinion of you. It's somehow comforting to know that my contempt was not misplaced.
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George Aar
Oh, and don't look now WD, but he's got it relisted.
While I think his appraisal ability is sorely lacking, he's clearly not intimidated by baseless threats.
I'm still wondering though, is there anybody that gives a chit about this? To me it's sorta like knowing the secret to "sawing a woman in half" or some other hackneyed trick. Once you know what's really going on, why would you want to still pretend otherwise? Really peculiar...
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doojable
uhhh... there is at least one other possibility. The guy selling the set could have ended the auction because of the 'warning' posted on his site.
Then again... suppose someone did offer the 5 Grand?
You're not jumping to conclusions without proof now WD, are you?
Or did you get revelation? (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
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dmiller
Here's the name of the seller, DWBH. It was on page one of this thread. :)
"I've got a cookie jar and NO, I won't let you reach into it!"
Daddy.
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doojable
Oops! The item is still for sale!
So... no cookie jar, no cookie, no sale (yet) and no Big Bad Boogie Cult strongarm tactics.
Too bad, so sad.
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potato
I'm super impressed by your use of cum hoc ergo propter hoc while simultaneously employing anaeresis to make it seem even more significant.
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dmiller
Geo -- - pick a card. Any card!
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oldiesman
Lindyhopper,
You have applied a false accusation and misrepresented my position... I never said this person stole anything. For all I know, he bought it from someone else who bought it from someone else. What I am saying is these tapes never were meant to be sold or given to private parties and most likely left twi's hands under less than legal circumstances. Could qualify as stolen merchandise. As such, like them or not, they are twi's property and twi does have some rights if they wish to pursue them.
Yes, I will defend the way when they are stolen from just like I'll defend anyone else who gets stolen from because theft is wrong. Their past sins are not an excuse ... all theft is still wrong, period. You may hate twi all you desire, but their bad behavior does not justify additional bad behavior.
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doojable
Mr. Kettle... calling Mr. Kettle... There's a Mr. Pot on the phone for you.
Where are you when you post Oldies?
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rascal
Oh hell when have you ever defended someone whom twi has stolen from?
Tattling to twi who owes everything that they have to somebody ELSES efforts...who stole everything that they have themselves......My my... weren`t you a little hero!
It was a creepy thing to do, regardless of how you attempt to justify it.
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rascal
Not that it really matters, waygb monitors this site and no doubt would have already informed the ptb`s of the tapes. It`s the principle of the thing.
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oldiesman
What is creepy is getting reproof harangue from the queen of finger-pointers.
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rascal
I calls em as I sees em friend :)
Actually no, I have to admit that I greatly modified my disgust and contempt for your reprehensible action in this particular instance. I just wish that you could have seen it in the original ;)
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potato
twi doesn't actually have a legal right to disregard copyright law and make up special rules for themselves so they can claim ownership of published materials that they distribute. could qualify as stolen merchandise, you assert? I guess they'd have to take it to court and show the contract proving they own the property and that a crime has been committed. of course they have the right to do that, but their actual "rights" to property which has changed hands must be established in court in the face of evidence that puts their claim of ownership in questionable light.
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Tzaia
Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have stopped the listing of those tapes. I'm leaning towards can't.
Now that most people don't care what TWI thinks, threats just don't have the power they used to have.
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Ham
they could take the easy route..
just BUY THE TAPES..
1. It'll get it off ebay..
2. keep it out of the hands of "heathens", researchers in strange religions or worse..
3. Save themselves from identification with in the best words possible, a doctrinal embarassment..
its only a measely 5k.. cmon guys, get with it..
I mean really.. how much money did this particular set of tapes actually bring in da *ministry* for you, in the long run? Figure 85.00 a shot for about a hundred people give or take, then of those the tithes and "abundant sharing" through the years?
$5000.00 is about right here..
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Ham
I wonder what this means to them in terms of the rest of the classes.. with no clear verbiage about distribution and such..
I hear there are lots of legitimately acquired copies of almost EVERYTHING they "published" floating around..
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Ham
I wonder what an original copy of one of the advanced classes would fetch on ebay..
and you just KNOW there were some of these "gifted".. LEGITIMATELY, to more than a couple folks..
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