ok, so your quote above, WD, (from here http://www.aallnet.org/committee/copyright.../firstsale.html or one of the other urls that has copied it) deals specifically with the issues of first sale as it relates to digital copies. I wouldn't consider their terminology the final word on what constitutes "first sale" since the article doesn't deal with the nuances of rights of exhaustion. that's why I suggested you try to keep up, because bending definitions to suit yourself is you M.O. and you're ignoring information that's already been provided.
it would be better to consult with the copyright code itself:
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
other transfer of ownership includes gifts, as established by case law.
therefore, we are back to the real issue, which is if twi "rented, leased or lent" the copy, they will have a signed contract stating those are the terms. otherwise, the copies were gifts, unless it can be demonstrated that they were stolen, in which case anyone twi accuses in court would have presumption of innocence and the burden would be on twi to prove that the tapes were stolen, provided the statute of limitations hasn't run out.
it also might help to keep the statutes of limitations for ohio in mind, although if the tapes were given to individuals in other states the prosecution may have to take place in the court where the crime supposedly took place.
Except as provided in sections 126.301 and 1302.98 of the Revised Code, an action upon a specialty or an agreement, contract, or promise in writing shall be brought within fifteen years after the cause thereof accrued.
2305.07 Contract not in writing - statutory liability.
Except as provided in sections 126.301 and 1302.98 of the Revised Code, an action upon a contract not in writing, express or implied, or upon a liability created by statute other than a forfeiture or penalty, shall be brought within six years after the cause thereof accrued.
(D) For an injury to the rights of the plaintiff not arising on contract nor enumerated in sections 1304.35, 2305.10 to 2305.12, and 2305.14 of the Revised Code;
(E) For relief on the grounds of a physical or regulatory taking of real property.
If the action is for trespassing under ground or injury to mines, or for the wrongful taking of personal property, the causes thereof shall not accrue until the wrongdoer is discovered; nor, if it is for fraud, until the fraud is discovered.
Whereas the structure of TWI classes were loaned between limb, branch and twig.
And whereas some classes appear to have been gifted to individuals.
And whereas the Way of the UK was done by C. Geer to comply with British legal structure, and they were given full rights to distribute TWI publications and classes.
And whereas The Way of California was done by VPW and Doop to allow the Way West to flounder or prosper on it's own without pulling TWI with it.
Does anyone know if The Way of California was likewise given full legal authority to also distribute TWI publications?
I would imagine they were.
The last time that I checked [2002] the Way of California was still a legal entity in good standing in California.
Whereas the structure of TWI classes were loaned between limb, branch and twig.
And whereas some classes appear to have been gifted to individuals.
Sorry, I missed that post...who said that classes were "gifted"?
And whereas the Way of the UK was done by C. Geer to comply with British legal structure, and they were given full rights to distribute TWI publications and classes.
I think this may be the big loophole in TWI's claim of complete ownership. Was The Way in Great Britain (Geer's former org) given rights to distribute anywhere? Or just the UK and Europe? If so, is it legal to distribute outside their "sales area"?
And whereas The Way of California was done by VPW and Doop to allow the Way West to flounder or prosper on it's own without pulling TWI with it.
I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that The Way of California that existed in the 70's, 80's etc and The Way West are one and the same?
Does anyone know if The Way of California was likewise given full legal authority to also distribute TWI publications?
I would imagine they were.
I disagree. I can't see why TWI would do that.
The last time that I checked [2002] the Way of California was still a legal entity in good standing in California.
I believe that all 50 "limbs", The Way of...Alaska, Alabama...Wyoming...etc...were incorporated in the states where they operated, the question is, where these corporations legally independent of The Way International?
I believe that all 50 "limbs", The Way of...Alaska, Alabama...Wyoming...etc...were incorporated in the states where they operated, the question is, where these corporations legally independent of The Way International?
hm, that makes all of this even more interesting. it's possible they're all owned and controlled by twi, but it also brings up the possibility of contractual obligations of each limb coordinator to the state corp. rather than to hq - i.e. who actually employed the l.c.'s? were they contractually obligated to the state corp. or to the international corp.? for instance, if a limb coordinator could just order class tapes and they were sent without ownership being addressed contractually somewhere, then that might actually constitute "first sale" and exhaustion of twi's rights to control the tapes if the l.c. was employed by the state corp.
To the best of my knowledge, the only period when PFAL class tapes were being handed out to individuals was during the fallout after Passing of a Patriarch, and I'd be willing to bet they weren't given out with the Way International's blessing.
Was it during that time, Galen (around 1986-89) that you were given the tapes?
There was a whole underground "vibe" during that time. I know in Ohio, leaders still on twi's payroll were scrambling around trying to "save" PFAL one way or another, either by stashing the sets of class tapes or whatever, because they were caught up in Geer's thing and expected to get fired and lose access to the materials.
During that time I almost got roped into transcribing the class to "preserve" it , but then I decided it was silly, since we had our Bibles and most of us had sat through the class a bunch of times and had all the reading materials anyway. I think I only got through the first tape from the first session.
VPW might have occasionally (more likely, rarely) given a set to someone for the purpose of running classes, but it wasn't a common practice. Ham, I was around from '72 until the late 80s, and I never heard of the tapes being given to AC grads.
I doubt whether the twi of today would bother to try to force anyone to give back any of the PFAL class tapes or videos. They don't even offer that class anymore, do they? Seems to me with all the time that's passed since anyone got these materials, and with the number of times they've changed hands, that it would be too costly in legal fees for twi to bother.
All legal nitpicking aside, the tapes and videos belonged to twi, not to individuals or individual states. They were loaned out, not given out, for the purpose of running classes.
Well, legal nitpicking aside, all twi has/had is due to us. You have a few individuals who have taken what tens of thousands of us all worked for and built. Those tapes as well as anything else twi has *belongs* to us, whether the law sees it that way or not.
Sorry, I missed that post...who said that classes were "gifted"?
Post #42
... I think this may be the big loophole in TWI's claim of complete ownership. Was The Way in Great Britain (Geer's former org) given rights to distribute anywhere? Or just the UK and Europe? If so, is it legal to distribute outside their "sales area"?
I do not know.
... I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that The Way of California that existed in the 70's, 80's etc and The Way West are one and the same?
Such was my understanding. The corporation that VPW started for Doop to lead and to have separate liability; was the same corporation which has withstood until today.
... I believe that all 50 "limbs", The Way of...Alaska, Alabama...Wyoming...etc...were incorporated in the states where they operated, the question is, where these corporations legally independent of The Way International?
could be?
To the best of my knowledge, the only period when PFAL class tapes were being handed out to individuals was during the fallout after Passing of a Patriarch, and I'd be willing to bet they weren't given out with the Way International's blessing.
Was it during that time, Galen (around 1986-89) that you were given the tapes?
Yes.
1985 to 1987.
... There was a whole underground "vibe" during that time. I know in Ohio, leaders still on twi's payroll were scrambling around trying to "save" PFAL one way or another, either by stashing the sets of class tapes or whatever, because they were caught up in Geer's thing and expected to get fired and lose access to the materials.
During that time I almost got roped into transcribing the class to "preserve" it , but then I decided it was silly, since we had our Bibles and most of us had sat through the class a bunch of times and had all the reading materials anyway. I think I only got through the first tape from the first session.
All legal nitpicking aside, the tapes and videos belonged to twi, not to individuals or individual states. They were loaned out, not given out, for the purpose of running classes.
I think "belonged" (past tense) being the operative word in the cases of tapes and other class materials being sold on eBay.
it's amazing how little it can cost to strong-arm someone with a threat, if the person being strong-armed doesn't realize the threat has no legal teeth. that's why I think the legal nitpicking isn't really nitpicking. it's discussing whether twi's claim to something in someone else's possession is valid. who knows who might read this thread in the future after twi demands property they have no right to?
Those tapes as well as anything else twi has *belongs* to us....
In that case, you can have my share.
potato, my comment about legal nitpicking wasn't meant disparagingly or directed at anyone in particular. Those of you who are into that are probably making good pro and con points; it's just not my thing. My point, without trying to back it with some sort of legal "proof," was that although the tapes/videos are owned by twi I doubt they're interested in tracking them all down.
maybe they should just make an offer to buy them all back, if they want to save the "product" from us "heathens"..
I mean, really.. people shoveled out hard earned cash for university of life tapes, etc. etc.. if they don't want to see their doctrinal embarassments languishing away on ebay or something.. why not just make a (really good) offer?
potato, my comment about legal nitpicking wasn't meant disparagingly or directed at anyone in particular. Those of you who are into that are probably making good pro and con points; it's just not my thing. My point, without trying to back it with some sort of legal "proof," was that although the tapes/videos are owned by twi I doubt they're interested in tracking them all down.
they probably aren't, but I can't overlook the fact that they're a bunch of bullies :)
plus, OM tattled, and I'd hate to see a legit eBay seller dogged by twi
ok, so your quote above, WD, (from here http://www.aallnet.org/committee/copyright.../firstsale.html or one of the other urls that has copied it) deals specifically with the issues of first sale as it relates to digital copies. I wouldn't consider their terminology the final word on what constitutes "first sale" since the article doesn't deal with the nuances of rights of exhaustion. that's why I suggested you try to keep up, because bending definitions to suit yourself is you M.O. and you're ignoring information that's already been provided.
I didn't bend anything I gave three sources they all said the same thing you seem intent on bending the definition.
it would be better to consult with the copyright code itself:
So now you want to change and discuss copyright law , your the one who brought up first sale. Which was your argument, or are you just going to jump around until you find something that works?
other transfer of ownership includes gifts, as established by case law.
therefore, we are back to the real issue, which is if twi "rented, leased or lent" the copy, they will have a signed contract stating those are the terms. otherwise, the copies were gifts, unless it can be demonstrated that they were stolen, in which case anyone twi accuses in court would have presumption of innocence and the burden would be on twi to prove that the tapes were stolen, provided the statute of limitations hasn't run out.
it also might help to keep the statutes of limitations for ohio in mind, although if the tapes were given to individuals in other states the prosecution may have to take place in the court where the crime supposedly took place.
Sorry, I missed that post...who said that classes were "gifted"?
I think this may be the big loophole in TWI's claim of complete ownership. Was The Way in Great Britain (Geer's former org) given rights to distribute anywhere? Or just the UK and Europe? If so, is it legal to distribute outside their "sales area"?
I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that The Way of California that existed in the 70's, 80's etc and The Way West are one and the same?
I disagree. I can't see why TWI would do that.
I believe that all 50 "limbs", The Way of...Alaska, Alabama...Wyoming...etc...were incorporated in the states where they operated, the question is, where these corporations legally independent of The Way International?
Chris claims he was given rights to distribute anywhere, The Way at one point sued claiming yes they did give rights, but only to Europe. The short of it,After years of legal back and forth Chris won his case. That said to my knowledge he has never distributed any PFAL classes. Only the Walking in God's Power Classes.
To the best of my knowledge, the only period when PFAL class tapes were being handed out to individuals was during the fallout after Passing of a Patriarch, and I'd be willing to bet they weren't given out with the Way International's blessing.
Was it during that time, Galen (around 1986-89) that you were given the tapes?
There was a whole underground "vibe" during that time. I know in Ohio, leaders still on twi's payroll were scrambling around trying to "save" PFAL one way or another, either by stashing the sets of class tapes or whatever, because they were caught up in Geer's thing and expected to get fired and lose access to the materials.
During that time I almost got roped into transcribing the class to "preserve" it , but then I decided it was silly, since we had our Bibles and most of us had sat through the class a bunch of times and had all the reading materials anyway. I think I only got through the first tape from the first session.
VPW might have occasionally (more likely, rarely) given a set to someone for the purpose of running classes, but it wasn't a common practice. Ham, I was around from '72 until the late 80s, and I never heard of the tapes being given to AC grads.
I doubt whether the twi of today would bother to try to force anyone to give back any of the PFAL class tapes or videos. They don't even offer that class anymore, do they? Seems to me with all the time that's passed since anyone got these materials, and with the number of times they've changed hands, that it would be too costly in legal fees for twi to bother.
All legal nitpicking aside, the tapes and videos belonged to twi, not to individuals or individual states. They were loaned out, not given out, for the purpose of running classes.
Linda's remembrance is exactly correct.
they probably aren't, but I can't overlook the fact that they're a bunch of bullies :)
plus, OM tattled, and I'd hate to see a legit eBay seller dogged by twi
Only a matter of time ,they watch the ebay sales this would not be the first person that has had an auction pulled at their request.
So now you want to change and discuss copyright law , your the one who brought up first sale. Which was your argument, or are you just going to jump around until you find something that works?
So now you want to change and discuss copyright law , your the one who brought up first sale. Which was your argument, or are you just going to jump around until you find something that works?
LOL! gawd you make me laugh. do you know what first sale is, where it came from, and where it's codified?
since you obviously don't, I'll explain it. first sale doctrine (later expanded to "exhaustion of rights") regarding a copyright holder's control over copies they have distributed was established by case law about 90 years ago and is now codified AS copyright law. I'm not jumping around anywhere, I've been speaking to the same point all along, which is whether or not twi has any rights to control copies without proof of ownership.
if they didn't report the copies stolen, didn't have anyone sign contracts for lease/rent/lending, and in all likelihood the statute of limitations has run out on any possible cases of theft(which would have to be proven in court), it's all likely moot at this point because twi has no rights to the tape sets floating around.
Only a matter of time ,they watch the ebay sales this would not be the first person that has had an auction pulled at their request.
very unlikely. they'd have to prove they own the set to get eBay to take action against a seller like that.
(a) Maybe, if TWI did want it back...they could simply buy it back. Got to be less expensive and more certain than engaging lawyers and the hassle and delay of proving their case, if indeed they do have one. (Can't believe an offer of even $500 would be declined. Or even $50.)
and
(b) Maybe (if the seller is hanging out for a larger amount) the seller knows this and sees it as a way of getting back some of the ABS donated over the years, that wasn't used for the purpose for which it was intended but was used for perpetrating the lifestyle of the rich and infamous?
(Edited because for some reason the (b) was printed as the copyright symbol :huh: )
you just KNOW it would be down by now if twi could actually do anything..
and lookie what somebody posted there..
Dear classyguy620,
Some jerk on greasespot just announced that he alerted The Way to this listing. I wanted to let you know because I support your right to sell your property as you see fit. If TWI does not have a written contract that you signed saying you borrowed the tapes, then you own them and they can't stop you from selling them, according to first sale doctrine and Vernor v. Autodesk decision that shrink-wrapped EULAs are not binding. basicall, no signed contract, no claim to property.
i don't get to ebay ever...........really wary of it, though i know several folks who buy and sell there actively.........is it a large community of people?.............who would "the jerk" be to whom that poster referred to?.......anyone we might know????..................peace.
i don't get to ebay ever...........really wary of it, though i know several folks who buy and sell there actively.........is it a large community of people?.............who would "the jerk" be to whom that poster referred to?.......anyone we might know????..................peace.
DWBH, I called them (the trunk office) and asked what their position on this was, and they told me. Their position is, it is their property. I agree ... because from what I know (and you know this is true, being in that position), twi always was the property owner of the tapes and the class was never meant to be sold individually to anyone. So I can be called names but to me, what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Because they did wrong doesn't justify another wrongdoing to them. Bad behavior doesn't justify more bad behavior.
All pretty sounding excuses justifying a really ratty action. I`ll bet you felt really important.
As far as right and wrong?? TWI owns nothing, they didn`t earn anything. We we WE paid for everything that they currently have. They took what we gave under the dishonest auspices of the ministry being our ministry that we would always have access to what we had built....that what we gave was for God. Most of us certainly would never have given them anything had we known what the money was to go to.
They lied period. Now they may have legal ownership, but that doesn`t make them right. I imagine that legally they can`t do a thing about this fellow, or they already would have had the tapes seized and him arrested.
i don't get to ebay ever...........really wary of it, though i know several folks who buy and sell there actively.........is it a large community of people?.............who would "the jerk" be to whom that poster referred to?.......anyone we might know????..................peace.
DWBH,
Ebay is a great place to buy and sell, nothing to be wary about. They have a great buyers protection program. . . used to be they would refund your money and take it from the sellers account. Not sure if they still do, but the protections are in place.. . . Just buy from an established seller.
I used to sell Geisha Girl China pattern there. . . it was fun and a great way to make extra cash.
It is a huge community and nice way to cyber-meet people from all over the world. I never had a problem selling or buying. . . I just offered a money back if there was an issue.
I got to know my repeat buyers well, and took requests.
You can get just about anything on there. . . sometimes at real bargains. . . lot's of vintage items. . . . nostalgic stuff.
Heck, you can even buy PFAL. God help us all. . . it's "available".
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Tzaia
I've already supplied the name of the guy near the top. The 3s are e; the 1s are i; and the @ is an a. I did a reverse lookup of the phone number.
potato
BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!
Tzaia
Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have
potato
ok, so your quote above, WD, (from here http://www.aallnet.org/committee/copyright.../firstsale.html or one of the other urls that has copied it) deals specifically with the issues of first sale as it relates to digital copies. I wouldn't consider their terminology the final word on what constitutes "first sale" since the article doesn't deal with the nuances of rights of exhaustion. that's why I suggested you try to keep up, because bending definitions to suit yourself is you M.O. and you're ignoring information that's already been provided.
it would be better to consult with the copyright code itself:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106
other transfer of ownership includes gifts, as established by case law.
see http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/440377 paragraphs 11 and 34
therefore, we are back to the real issue, which is if twi "rented, leased or lent" the copy, they will have a signed contract stating those are the terms. otherwise, the copies were gifts, unless it can be demonstrated that they were stolen, in which case anyone twi accuses in court would have presumption of innocence and the burden would be on twi to prove that the tapes were stolen, provided the statute of limitations hasn't run out.
it also might help to keep the statutes of limitations for ohio in mind, although if the tapes were given to individuals in other states the prosecution may have to take place in the court where the crime supposedly took place.
Ohio limitations
http://www.clelaw.lib.oh.us/Public/Misc/FA...imitations.html
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Galen
Whereas the structure of TWI classes were loaned between limb, branch and twig.
And whereas some classes appear to have been gifted to individuals.
And whereas the Way of the UK was done by C. Geer to comply with British legal structure, and they were given full rights to distribute TWI publications and classes.
And whereas The Way of California was done by VPW and Doop to allow the Way West to flounder or prosper on it's own without pulling TWI with it.
Does anyone know if The Way of California was likewise given full legal authority to also distribute TWI publications?
I would imagine they were.
The last time that I checked [2002] the Way of California was still a legal entity in good standing in California.
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Ham
I heard before my time, they gave the pfal tapes to advanced class students.. anybody know if this was true?
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Oakspear
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potato
hm, that makes all of this even more interesting. it's possible they're all owned and controlled by twi, but it also brings up the possibility of contractual obligations of each limb coordinator to the state corp. rather than to hq - i.e. who actually employed the l.c.'s? were they contractually obligated to the state corp. or to the international corp.? for instance, if a limb coordinator could just order class tapes and they were sent without ownership being addressed contractually somewhere, then that might actually constitute "first sale" and exhaustion of twi's rights to control the tapes if the l.c. was employed by the state corp.
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Linda Z
To the best of my knowledge, the only period when PFAL class tapes were being handed out to individuals was during the fallout after Passing of a Patriarch, and I'd be willing to bet they weren't given out with the Way International's blessing.
Was it during that time, Galen (around 1986-89) that you were given the tapes?
There was a whole underground "vibe" during that time. I know in Ohio, leaders still on twi's payroll were scrambling around trying to "save" PFAL one way or another, either by stashing the sets of class tapes or whatever, because they were caught up in Geer's thing and expected to get fired and lose access to the materials.
During that time I almost got roped into transcribing the class to "preserve" it , but then I decided it was silly, since we had our Bibles and most of us had sat through the class a bunch of times and had all the reading materials anyway. I think I only got through the first tape from the first session.
VPW might have occasionally (more likely, rarely) given a set to someone for the purpose of running classes, but it wasn't a common practice. Ham, I was around from '72 until the late 80s, and I never heard of the tapes being given to AC grads.
I doubt whether the twi of today would bother to try to force anyone to give back any of the PFAL class tapes or videos. They don't even offer that class anymore, do they? Seems to me with all the time that's passed since anyone got these materials, and with the number of times they've changed hands, that it would be too costly in legal fees for twi to bother.
All legal nitpicking aside, the tapes and videos belonged to twi, not to individuals or individual states. They were loaned out, not given out, for the purpose of running classes.
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rascal
Well, legal nitpicking aside, all twi has/had is due to us. You have a few individuals who have taken what tens of thousands of us all worked for and built. Those tapes as well as anything else twi has *belongs* to us, whether the law sees it that way or not.
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Galen
Post #42
I do not know.
Such was my understanding. The corporation that VPW started for Doop to lead and to have separate liability; was the same corporation which has withstood until today.
could be?
Yes.
1985 to 1987.
Yes that describes the era well.
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potato
I think "belonged" (past tense) being the operative word in the cases of tapes and other class materials being sold on eBay.
it's amazing how little it can cost to strong-arm someone with a threat, if the person being strong-armed doesn't realize the threat has no legal teeth. that's why I think the legal nitpicking isn't really nitpicking. it's discussing whether twi's claim to something in someone else's possession is valid. who knows who might read this thread in the future after twi demands property they have no right to?
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Linda Z
Rascal said:
In that case, you can have my share.
potato, my comment about legal nitpicking wasn't meant disparagingly or directed at anyone in particular. Those of you who are into that are probably making good pro and con points; it's just not my thing. My point, without trying to back it with some sort of legal "proof," was that although the tapes/videos are owned by twi I doubt they're interested in tracking them all down.
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Ham
maybe they should just make an offer to buy them all back, if they want to save the "product" from us "heathens"..
I mean, really.. people shoveled out hard earned cash for university of life tapes, etc. etc.. if they don't want to see their doctrinal embarassments languishing away on ebay or something.. why not just make a (really good) offer?
well ... it's a thought, anyway..
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potato
they probably aren't, but I can't overlook the fact that they're a bunch of bullies :)
plus, OM tattled, and I'd hate to see a legit eBay seller dogged by twi
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WhiteDove
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WhiteDove
Chris claims he was given rights to distribute anywhere, The Way at one point sued claiming yes they did give rights, but only to Europe. The short of it,After years of legal back and forth Chris won his case. That said to my knowledge he has never distributed any PFAL classes. Only the Walking in God's Power Classes.
Linda's remembrance is exactly correct.
Only a matter of time ,they watch the ebay sales this would not be the first person that has had an auction pulled at their request.
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potato
LOL! gawd you make me laugh. do you know what first sale is, where it came from, and where it's codified?
since you obviously don't, I'll explain it. first sale doctrine (later expanded to "exhaustion of rights") regarding a copyright holder's control over copies they have distributed was established by case law about 90 years ago and is now codified AS copyright law. I'm not jumping around anywhere, I've been speaking to the same point all along, which is whether or not twi has any rights to control copies without proof of ownership.
if they didn't report the copies stolen, didn't have anyone sign contracts for lease/rent/lending, and in all likelihood the statute of limitations has run out on any possible cases of theft(which would have to be proven in court), it's all likely moot at this point because twi has no rights to the tape sets floating around.
very unlikely. they'd have to prove they own the set to get eBay to take action against a seller like that.
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Twinky
Now here's a thought.
(a) Maybe, if TWI did want it back...they could simply buy it back. Got to be less expensive and more certain than engaging lawyers and the hassle and delay of proving their case, if indeed they do have one. (Can't believe an offer of even $500 would be declined. Or even $50.)
and
(b) Maybe (if the seller is hanging out for a larger amount) the seller knows this and sees it as a way of getting back some of the ABS donated over the years, that wasn't used for the purpose for which it was intended but was used for perpetrating the lifestyle of the rich and infamous?
(Edited because for some reason the (b) was printed as the copyright symbol :huh: )
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doojable
Go, Potato, GO!
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Ham
and.. it is still up on Ebay!
you just KNOW it would be down by now if twi could actually do anything..
and lookie what somebody posted there..
go Galen, go..
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Ham
maybe the sowers people will make an offer. they could probably use a LEGAL copy to play to glassy eyed "followers"..
I'll donate the "gently used" coffee grounds for the stretched coffee
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DontWorryBeHappy
i don't get to ebay ever...........really wary of it, though i know several folks who buy and sell there actively.........is it a large community of people?.............who would "the jerk" be to whom that poster referred to?.......anyone we might know????..................peace.
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Ham
maybe I'll advertise the rest of the pfal package to go with the tapes on ebay..
"hurry hurry hurry... can't have a class without a class kit.. for a limited time, you can have a standard kit, including:
forty uncushioned metal chairs, that the funeral home was done with.
used string for proper positioning of said chairs.. (those that aren't warped, and will sit square on the floor, anyway)
a five gallon westinghouse percolator, that the church didn't want back..
Ten pounds of gently used coffee grounds.. along with a half a pound of salt, to *refresh* the flavor.
twenty-five *slightly* used styrofoam cups, complete with genuine lipstick stains and teeth marks.
offer is time-limited. Bids start at $2500.00. Sorry, we only accept pay-pal."
DWBH.. that was the author of post 63.
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oldiesman
DWBH, I called them (the trunk office) and asked what their position on this was, and they told me. Their position is, it is their property. I agree ... because from what I know (and you know this is true, being in that position), twi always was the property owner of the tapes and the class was never meant to be sold individually to anyone. So I can be called names but to me, what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. Because they did wrong doesn't justify another wrongdoing to them. Bad behavior doesn't justify more bad behavior.
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rascal
All pretty sounding excuses justifying a really ratty action. I`ll bet you felt really important.
As far as right and wrong?? TWI owns nothing, they didn`t earn anything. We we WE paid for everything that they currently have. They took what we gave under the dishonest auspices of the ministry being our ministry that we would always have access to what we had built....that what we gave was for God. Most of us certainly would never have given them anything had we known what the money was to go to.
They lied period. Now they may have legal ownership, but that doesn`t make them right. I imagine that legally they can`t do a thing about this fellow, or they already would have had the tapes seized and him arrested.
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geisha779
DWBH,
Ebay is a great place to buy and sell, nothing to be wary about. They have a great buyers protection program. . . used to be they would refund your money and take it from the sellers account. Not sure if they still do, but the protections are in place.. . . Just buy from an established seller.
I used to sell Geisha Girl China pattern there. . . it was fun and a great way to make extra cash.
It is a huge community and nice way to cyber-meet people from all over the world. I never had a problem selling or buying. . . I just offered a money back if there was an issue.
I got to know my repeat buyers well, and took requests.
You can get just about anything on there. . . sometimes at real bargains. . . lot's of vintage items. . . . nostalgic stuff.
Heck, you can even buy PFAL. God help us all. . . it's "available".
You should check it out.
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