This should be interesting

[WhiteDove]

Just came across my ebay

PFAL

[waysider]

Wow!

That's some serious scootie!

Just to clarify.

Are the recipiants going to pay YOU $5,000 or are you going to pay THEM?

[WhiteDove]

I believe that is the asking price for the item. Any bets on how long it will stay up on Ebay?

[Ham]

I thought da way had to sign over copyright permission to sell the dumb thing.. maybe it's geer. He browbeat them into giving him some publication rights or something..

but $5000?

for something more suited for use as a garden hoe than playing for spiritual edification?

[waysider]

I believe that is the asking price for the item. Any bets on how long it will stay up on Ebay?

That all depends on whether winter drags on and people run out of kindling.

[Ham]

then it could be another scam..

you know. put these things up for sale.. or maybe the one copy one has.. repeatedly buy it from oneself, making it look like they are "selling like hotcakes"..

"hurray, hurray, hurray.. while they a lasta.. only one to a customer.."

some dumbass wierwille worshipper.. "OMG.. they are GOING AWAY... NOOOOOOO...."

out comes the precious piece of plastic..

[Tzaia]

Does anyone know who D@v1d Schl31ch3r is? He's the "owner" of the phone number.

[potato]

it's perfectly legal to sell those tapes unless the current owner entered into a written contract that specifies the materials are licensed for specific use and must be returned to twi when certain conditions are met.

otherwise, first sale doctrine applies (the copyright owner can only control the first distribution of a tangible item) and they're free to sell them to whoever they want for as much as they want.

[WhiteDove]

it's perfectly legal to sell those tapes unless the current owner entered into a written contract that specifies the materials are licensed for specific use and must be returned to twi when certain conditions are met.

otherwise, first sale doctrine applies (the copyright owner can only control the first distribution of a tangible item) and they're free to sell them to whoever they want for as much as they want.

Actually it is not, there was no first sale or distribution ,the tape sets always belonged to the Way International they were sent out only to run a class and to be returned upon completion. They remained the property of The Way International. I believe the Belizean BRC folks got into the same trouble with the Way awhile back they had some sets of CD's for sale because the Belize do not honor the copyrights but when they started selling them here in the states The Way went after them. There may be some exceptions I know some have claimed they were given a set legally

[Oakspear]

I agree with WD's take. Some have claimed to have legal ownership, but I believe that they are mistaken.

[waysider]

http://www.copyright.gov/records/

http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon...T=25&HIST=1

Edited March 14, 2009 by waysider

[potato]

Actually it is not, there was no first sale or distribution ,the tape sets always belonged to the Way International they were sent out only to run a class and to be returned upon completion. They remained the property of The Way International. I believe the Belizean BRC folks got into the same trouble with the Way awhile back they had some sets of CD's for sale because the Belize do not honor the copyrights but when they started selling them here in the states The Way went after them. There may be some exceptions I know some have claimed they were given a set legally

you can't legally make and sell copies of copyrighted material unless you have permission. I'm talking about something else. if twi handed over those tapes without a written contract prior to transfer specifying the conditions of their return, the person in possession can sell them, give them away, whatever, but they can't make copies for sale unless twi forgot to copyright the tapes. legally, twi can't now come along and say "we only loaned those out" unless there's a contract somewhere that says so. if there's no contract, their rights to first distribution have expired.

Edited March 14, 2009 by potato

[WhiteDove]

you can't legally make and sell copies of copyrighted material unless you have permission. I'm talking about something else. if twi handed over those tapes without a written contract prior to transfer specifying the conditions of their return, the person in possession can sell them, give them away, whatever, but they can't make copies for sale unless twi forgot to copyright the tapes. legally, twi can't now come along and say "we only loaned those out" unless there's a contract somewhere that says so. if there's no contract, their rights to first distribution have expired.

Exactly and they always specified their return as such if one has a set they belong to them. Now he may have purchased them say at a garage sale or second hand bookstore and as such he may think he has ownership, but if they are stolen goods the Way may have a case for their return, each tape set is numbered so it would be easy to produce a log to show ownership.

[dmiller]

Shucks --- and I thought 85 bucks was expensive to listen to it for the first time!!

I'm thinking (correct me if I'm wrong), that Galen is one of the few here who has rights to pfal distribution. ;)

[dmiller]

Woops --- just took a look at the ad again. I see it's from Ft. Collins Co.

That wouldn't be Galen. He's on the east coast. :)

[WhiteDove]

Woops --- just took a look at the ad again. I see it's from Ft. Collins Co.

That wouldn't be Galen. He's on the east coast. :)

Exactly who I was thinking of David but I don't know that claim to be true or false only that it was made, which is why I wrote There may be some exceptions I know some have claimed they were given a set legally

I know the CD sets of the Sunday Night Services/ Tape of the Month that VPW taught come out of Denver but this is not the same person. Besides Sara told me that the rights to her fathers teachings since they were not copyrighted or copyrighted correctly belong in PD and that they signed a letter for permission to use them for the project from the family for any intellectual rights.. The Way contested the fact but in the end have left them alone. due to the legal position of their attorneys below.

The Way International does NOT hold a copyright to the Sunday Night Service tapes and Tape of the Month tapes by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. In fact, it would appear that these tapes were placed in the public domain by Dr. Wierwille and/or the Way International at the time they were distributed due to the fact that there was no copyright symbol placed on any of the tapes.In 1988 Congress passed the Berne Convention Implementation Act, Pub.L. 100-568, 102 Stat. 2853-54 (Oct. 31, 1988) which eliminated the notice requirement completely for all works first published after March 1, 1989. However, prior to that Act the copyright issue would be controlled by the Copyright Act of 1909 (the '1909 Act')." Under the 1909 Act and prior to March 1, 1989, the Copyright Act required that each copy of a work distributed to the public be marked with a copyright notice." TransWestern Pub. Co. LP v. Multimedia Marketing Associates, Inc., 133 F.3d 773, 782 (10th Cir. 1998). Furthermore, "Failure to do so would inject the work into the public domain." Id. However, the Way International, by failing to adhere to the strict statutory formalities-- i.e., the copyright notice requirement—caused all of the works at issue (teachings by Dr. Wierwille) to be passed into the "Public Domain." "Once a work has passed into the public domain as a result of failure to provide adequate notice of copyright, it may freely be copied." Allied Mktg. Group, Inc. v. CDL Mktg., Inc., 878 F.2d 806, 810 (5th Cir. 1989).

This indicia requirement in the Copyright Act was not amended until the Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988, which became effective March 1, 1989. Id. It was not until the Berne Convention amendments that the copyright notice became optional rather than mandatory. Id. See also 17 U.S.C. § 401(a); Norma Ribbon & Trimming, Inc. v. Little, 51 F.3d 45 (5th Cir. 1995). Since Dr. Wierwille passed away in 1985, all of the teachings at issue were produced prior to the Berne Convention Implementation Act and were required to have a copyright notice on each and every tape distributed in order for the copyright protection to be valid.

Prior to March 1, 1989, ownership of a valid copyright is established by proving the originality and copyrightability of the material and compliance with the statutory formalities (i.e. – having a copyright notice displayed on each work). Id. See also Allied Mktg. Group, Inc. v. CDL Mktg., Inc., 878 F.2d 806, 810 (5th Cir. 1989); Apple Barrel Prods., Inc. v. Beard, 730 F.2d 384, 387 (5th Cir. 1984). Only after the Plaintiff meets their burden pursuant to 17 U.S.C. § 410© does a defendant have the burden of overcoming it. Autoskill, 994 F.2d at 1487. Accord Williams Electronics, Inc. v. Artic International, Inc., 685 F.2d 870, 873 (3d Cir. 1982)

Edited March 14, 2009 by WhiteDove

[dmiller]

Exactly who I was thinking of David but I don't know that claim to be true or false only that it was made, which is why I wrote There may be some exceptions I know some have claimed they were given a set legally

Hey there White Dove. I don't know how to operate the *search* function here to isolate posts (like some folks can do),

but I do recall Galen saying that he was given the class to run at sea, while in the Navy (way back when), as a submariner.

I (also) seem to recall, he runs the class regularly in his area, since it was given to him to do so,

and it's his property (courtesy of twi).

Certainly he isn't in Colorado, and I don't think he's sell it.

Teach it/ run classes??

Yes. But sell it?? No.

[WhiteDove]

Hey there White Dove. I don't know how to operate the *search* function here to isolate posts (like some folks can do),

but I do recall Galen saying that he was given the class to run at sea, while in the Navy (way back when), as a submariner.

I (also) seem to recall, he runs the class regularly in his area, since it was given to him to do so,

and it's his property (courtesy of twi).

Certainly he isn't in Colorado, and I don't think he's sell it.

Teach it/ run classes??

Yes. But sell it?? No.

I agree, I could not find the post about at sea but I did not dig to hard, but I remember as you do him posting it. But here is a similar one

Galen

Jun 27 2006, 11:25 AM Post #15

(Oakspear @ Jun 27 2006, 12:12 PM)

Maybe you should have specified that you were talking about running PFAL classes while still in The Way, then perhaps Galen wouldn't be so amazed that there were "rules".

Of course if you're running a bootleg class you can do whatever you want, but Twi had plenty of rules and expectations involved in running PFAL classes

We really have not changed the format or 'flavour' of how we have ran PFAL classes. From the first ones that we ran in our Twigs starting in the late 70s, through 80s, 90s, etc.

I understand that on the rare occasion when WC were around, trying to poke their noses into what happened in our fellowship, it always got uncomfortable. The brow-beating, ugliness, and power-struggles, ick. We have been truly fortunate to have had very little dealings with WC overall. As I have explained previously.

Since the Limb of California gave us a copy of PFAL in 1985, overall we enjoyed far less direct dealing with WC anyway.

Edited March 14, 2009 by WhiteDove

[Tzaia]

I've already supplied the name of the guy near the top. The 3s are e; the 1s are i; and the @ is an a. I did a reverse lookup of the phone number.

[Oakspear]

RE: WD's last post quoting Galen (and me!)

Galen's position was that he was given a copy of PFAL by the Way (Limb) of California and that The Way of California was somehow independent of The Way International, giving them the right to give away PFAL, or assign rights to others. If I remember correctly, Galen received his copy during the so-called fog years when the leadership of the California Limb was not following the dictates of the Board of Trustees.

If a similar position is being taken by the person selling PFAL on eBay, I believe that they are mistaken in the assumption that the rights to PFAL were ever assigned for use without the supervision and control by The Way International.

[Galen]

Hello everyone.

Thank you, folks who notified me that I was being discussed here. :)

I told Bonnie about the Ebay ad, she said that she thought that had lost their decimal point.

It seems to me that the topic of copyright has been discussed many times previously. To my knowledge I was handed PFAL by an authorized entity, for a purpose. And I have tried to stick to the spirit of that purpose. If that was actually violating some copyright policy in some manner, I do not know. I have never sold PFAL.

'Way West' [The Way of California] handed me PFAL video in 1985. I was told to hold on to it, to run the class as needed, to hide it if needed. There were things within PFAL that needed to live-on. Bad things were happening within TWI and solid Twig Coordinators should have it.

The implication was that they were concerned PFAL was going to disappear.

The incident happened as a result of my twig having a group of new people signed up, and we had to wait for months, while fighting with WC personnel for the privilege to run a class. I was very angered at the time, as WC were running classes everywhere, but non-WC were only hitting road-blocks and being treated as if we were not believers, regardless of how many classes we had ran in the past. An elitist attitude had taken over.

At the time, I was out of the Navy attending college. I had previously been a part of twigs underwater and had seen PFAL ran underwater. Dave Liphold ran most of the underwater PFAL classes [he is the region Coordinator of Colorado I think].

In 1985 I was leading a Twig in Merced California. An orphaned twig between the branch of Modesto and the branch of Fresno. Each year we kind of alternated between those two branches, but neither of them really considered our Twig within their 'umbrella'. We ran PFAL a few times, but had more and more problems since I did not wear the secret decoder ring to allow me to be an elite member. And then we ran PFAL a few times using the PFAL that I was given.

I returned to the Navy in 1987. My next duty station was in Scotland. Where we coordinated a Twig and PFAL classes. Our Twig made trips sometimes to Gartmore, though we were told that we were not a part of the UK's TWI. And that I had to function as "Country Coordinator for Americans living in the UK". We did run PFAL classes there, however it was an even bigger struggle. We had local WC, but they treated us as outcasts. HQ treated us in a similar manner. I did not run our PFAL as I did not fully understand what was happening to 'leadership', and I refused to believe that TWI leadership would abandon it's followers in such a manner. Chris Kent visited our Twig once to deliver us PFAL, but when he saw that we were studying the Bible and had no decoder rings he refused to give it to us and he left. After much communication with HQ and Paul Norcross, Kent came to our home a second time. On his second trip, some of our new students laid hands on Kent and showed him the strength of their desire to attend PFAL. Being so encouraged Kent did give us PFAL tapes to run for the Twig, after I took possession of those tapes, our new students released Kent and he left. We then ran PFAL classes a few times while in Scotland. And I returned their PFAL tapes when I left Scotland.

Our struggle to run PFAL classes within TWI continued with each of the Twigs that I ran until I was thrown out in 1997 for refusing to burn TWI published materials [whose authors had been labeled 'mark and avoid'].

I have never sold PFAL; nor have I ever charged anyone to attend a PFAL class ran outside of the TWI umbrella.

My PFAL was all transfered to DVD years ago.

I have been offered PFAL on DVD from other fellowship coordinators, who likewise were handed PFAL during that era.

May God bless you.

:)

Edited March 14, 2009 by Galen

[potato]

Exactly and they always specified their return as such if one has a set they belong to them. Now he may have purchased them say at a garage sale or second hand bookstore and as such he may think he has ownership, but if they are stolen goods the Way may have a case for their return, each tape set is numbered so it would be easy to produce a log to show ownership.

how did they specify it? is there a written contract signed by each person receiving the tapes, or a blanket contract filed somewhere signed by each borrower, as we do when we apply for a library card?

what I want to know is if there is a legal contract. if not, then the physical transfer of the tapes from twi to an individual qualifies as "first sale" and twi's downstream rights to control are terminated.

plus, anyone purchasing the tapes on good faith is not bound by any contract entered into by someone else with twi, so they are free to dispose of the tapes as they see fit.

[waysider]

I would think the timing would be relevant as well.

When did the white notebooks in the ebay ad first appear? Before or after the copyright was issued?

Do these materials display a copyright symbol?

That kind of stuff, ya know?

[potato]

I would think the timing would be relevant as well.

When did the white notebooks in the ebay ad first appear? Before or after the copyright was issued?

Do these materials display a copyright symbol?

That kind of stuff, ya know?

timing is only relevant if the tapes are copies and not originals.

[waysider]

Originals might be exempt under certain circumstances. (I think.)

For example, I still have my set of individual collaterals that came with the class before they were combined into the blue book, the green book, etc. These, I believe were published and distributed before the copyrights were issued and have no copyright markings in them.