I'm voting for the hawks - not so much the coyotes as they can live on darned near anything that was once even vaguely alive.
...and isn't that exactly what twi is doing?...living on something that was once vaguely alive? (Your abs at work)...Was lcm a victim?...I won't pay him that courtesy. Not when I consider the malice, coldheartedness and meanspiritedness that was the benchmark of his reign of terror. That punk didn't give a rat's a ** about anything except his own ambitions...Christian leader? Victim?...sorry, he was a rattlesnake.
...and by the way, I agree with wordwolf's take on this also...Wierwille knew he was conning people but the dumb okie bought it. Martindale was a "mark" just like the rest of us...However, here's where I differ...Martindale was the "fairhaired boy" from the beginning. Wierwille was grooming him for big things from day one...loyboy never had the experience of being one of 500 faces in the in residence corps program...he was the golden boy...and jumped all over it with greed, ego and mouth...he was flat out mean...victim? I don't think so...even if he was conned by Wierwille, he had his own agenda from day one. Within the phoney world of Wierwille's false doctrines, Martindale saw himself as "some great one"...the man was pathetic.
LCM a victim?!?! Isn't that like calling Goebbels, Goering, Mendele, Eichmann victims because Hitler ran the thousand year Reich?!?!?!
CRIMINALS - ALL OF THEM! LCM is a criminal too; as are others of the depraved Vic's henchmen - as is most any one else whether in TWI, the local street corner, or on GSC who still follows and propounds the depraved Nazi's "teachings" rather than debunk his debaucherous and nefarious mythologies.
I have seen these so called leaders still act ruthlessly and cut people off at the knees, just as their mentor pervy vic did, don't be fooled, these men who were groomed by vic and in his inner circle are corrupted from the inside, they still admire the man.
They can rest on their laurels from their ministry glory days and possess names of renown from past hierarchial stature, but peel away the outward facade and you may find lost, yet ruthless, cold and disturbed human beings underneath. Â If one has walked far enough away from God to have embraced, adopted and idolized the ways of a man like weirwille, who personally taught them and groomed them, and they've never repented....how much can they possible reflect anything but what the legacy of pervy vic, King Okie, Rozilla, et al, have given us?...a lot of leaven makes a bad lump.
CRIMINALS - ALL OF THEM! LCM is a criminal too; as are others of the depraved Vic's henchmen - as is most any one else whether in TWI, the local street corner, or on GSC who still follows and propounds the depraved Nazi's "teachings" rather than debunk his debaucherous and nefarious mythologies.
right, I don't see any innocent parties. If you don't leave twi the day you turn 18, you're an abuser.
right, I don't see any innocent parties. If you don't leave twi the day you turn 18, you're an abuser.
some were abusers well before 18, and some who've left still are abusers, so what? and sure, as far as we went along with the witchhunts and unreasonable expectations, as far as we carried out orders from above, we unfortunately were party to the abuse. it's called abuse by proxy, in case anyone is interested. I personally was used to browbeat people into doing "the word", after being browbeaten myself. was I a victim at the time? yes. did I victimize others? I tried, thinking I was saving their wayward souls. thank god most of them didn't listen to me. one girl I know went through a lot of emotional abuse of which I'm afraid I was minimally involved, and if I ever see her I will apologize for it. she put up with a lot at the hands of the branch coordinator who was a snake, because she wanted to be right with god. the rest of my guilt is composed of sticking my nose in other peoples' business by order of the limb coordinator or obeying the M&A's. does that make me an abuser, right here, right now?
I was talking about he 19-20 something's in twi now who don't need leadership to tell them to do anything. It all comes natural.
ah, them! context is everything.
I was just talking about them somewhere else, as a matter of fact. they are asleep. drones. I suppose some of them are so damaged by being raised inside they will never recover. they will abuse because they were taught to be that way. I don't know that I can say they're all abusers, though. you'd know better than I.
Interesting... I just watched "Driving Lessons" with Rupert Grint (Ron Weasley of Harry Potter fame).
He plays a young man who has been raised in a highly disfunctional family: a Pastor father who hides within his religion because he is unhappy with the rest of his life, and dominant, controlling, manipulative mom who uses her overt Christian "good deeds" to hide her real sins. It takes a complete outsider who virtually hijacks this young man to shake him out of the patterns that had formed his life and thinking to that point, and even then as things are happening all around him he stays true to his training (and in his emotional cave) for a long, long time. And with each tentative step away from it, he runs back again because it is all he has ever known. It is what he was told was "right" and "true" and he wants to believe it, even when the evidence that it is all wrong is right in front of his face.
It's a quirky little movie with some highly quirky characters but whew, a lot of it reminded me of "the good old twi days". Clearly the guy who wrote and directed this understands a whole lot about human nature!
I was just talking about them somewhere else, as a matter of fact. they are asleep. drones. I suppose some of them are so damaged by being raised inside they will never recover. they will abuse because they were taught to be that way. I don't know that I can say they're all abusers, though. you'd know better than I.
what some consider abuse others consider love. One of these kids was practically licking his lips as he uh, reproved me or something. (I just played along to not escalate things). Not the only kid who's done that know that I think about it. They enjoy the power.
how is lcm different than the rest of us? I don't really know. At least I don't see it.
Dooj, there are some clips from The Apostle, including the opening 11 mins, on Youtube. Very scary, very emotion-whipping-up, no substance. I found myself cringing. But I do know where VPW got the idea for that white suit!! (Ah no, Duvall plagiarized VPW's idea, no?)
some were abusers well before 18, and some who've left still are abusers, so what? and sure, as far as we went along with the witchhunts and unreasonable expectations, as far as we carried out orders from above, we unfortunately were party to the abuse. it's called abuse by proxy, in case anyone is interested. I personally was used to browbeat people into doing "the word", after being browbeaten myself. was I a victim at the time? yes. did I victimize others? I tried, thinking I was saving their wayward souls. thank god most of them didn't listen to me. one girl I know went through a lot of emotional abuse of which I'm afraid I was minimally involved, and if I ever see her I will apologize for it. she put up with a lot at the hands of the branch coordinator who was a snake, because she wanted to be right with god. the rest of my guilt is composed of sticking my nose in other peoples' business by order of the limb coordinator or obeying the M&A's. does that make me an abuser, right here, right now?
Your abuse by proxy reference is a valid one. I think that everyone who sat by and let abuse go one were indeed, at the very least, guilty of empowering the Movers and Shakers. That being said, I can sympathise with some people more than others, for example people who were primarily involved because of their spouse, etc. Especially if they did not go out of their way to abuse others. Some people may have had more "awareness" than others.
In my own former household, I have little sympathy for anyone. They were all relatively intelligent and "aware" people. Looking into their eyes, I felt strongely that they full well *knew* what was wrong and right. They chose to do whatever benefited them the most in the Way.
The fact that you are willing to apologize for some of your actions makes you a FAR better person than anyone I knew in my Household and Branch. The closest thing to remorse I ever saw was when one of the men in the Household couldn't meet my gaze after a "meeting". I ran into one of the girls months after I bailed, and she acted puzzled when I didn't run over and chat like nothing ever happened. And she was one of the main participants.
One of the primary reasons I bailed was because I did not want to be party to the crap I saw going on. But then again, I had only myself to worry about. (Not counting a slight romantic interest.) It was far easier for me to ditch than it may have been for others.
We all make mistakes, and being willing to acknowledge them and ask forgiveness is a huge step in balancing the sheet. Oh, if only there were more like you in my former branch!
Your abuse by proxy reference is a valid one. I think that everyone who sat by and let abuse go one were indeed, at the very least, guilty of empowering the Movers and Shakers. That being said, I can sympathise with some people more than others, for example people who were primarily involved because of their spouse, etc. Especially if they did not go out of their way to abuse others. Some people may have had more "awareness" than others.
In my own former household, I have little sympathy for anyone. They were all relatively intelligent and "aware" people. Looking into their eyes, I felt strongely that they full well *knew* what was wrong and right. They chose to do whatever benefited them the most in the Way.
The fact that you are willing to apologize for some of your actions makes you a FAR better person than anyone I knew in my Household and Branch. The closest thing to remorse I ever saw was when one of the men in the Household couldn't meet my gaze after a "meeting". I ran into one of the girls months after I bailed, and she acted puzzled when I didn't run over and chat like nothing ever happened. And she was one of the main participants.
One of the primary reasons I bailed was because I did not want to be party to the crap I saw going on. But then again, I had only myself to worry about. (Not counting a slight romantic interest.) It was far easier for me to ditch than it may have been for others.
We all make mistakes, and being willing to acknowledge them and ask forgiveness is a huge step in balancing the sheet. Oh, if only there were more like you in my former branch!
I am curious Bolshie you were in past your 18th birthday do you consider yourself an abuser too?
and are there things you regret that you were party to when you were in?
I know of one incident in my TWI past I was a party to but not in any way really able to stop it... Now as an adult I could do it but at the time there is no way I was capable.. In all honesty I just didn't have enough knowledge of the world or the word to stop that freight train.
Now is a different story.... and I do often think of it with great regret that I didn't know what to do to stop it.
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Bolshevik
vpw was not a modern-day Paul equivalent (the Christian version, we'll go with), but yes, an apprentice-like attitude would be shared, for many at least. aspiring to the standard of scripture, th
Bolshevik
I'm not sure what you mean. How are they different?
potato
some were abusers well before 18, and some who've left still are abusers, so what? and sure, as far as we went along with the witchhunts and unreasonable expectations, as far as we carried out orders
waysider
But if they kill off the poor little kitty cats, what will all the coyotes and red-tailed hawks eat?
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RumRunner
I'm voting for the hawks - not so much the coyotes as they can live on darned near anything that was once even vaguely alive.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and isn't that exactly what twi is doing?...living on something that was once vaguely alive? (Your abs at work)...Was lcm a victim?...I won't pay him that courtesy. Not when I consider the malice, coldheartedness and meanspiritedness that was the benchmark of his reign of terror. That punk didn't give a rat's a ** about anything except his own ambitions...Christian leader? Victim?...sorry, he was a rattlesnake.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and by the way, I agree with wordwolf's take on this also...Wierwille knew he was conning people but the dumb okie bought it. Martindale was a "mark" just like the rest of us...However, here's where I differ...Martindale was the "fairhaired boy" from the beginning. Wierwille was grooming him for big things from day one...loyboy never had the experience of being one of 500 faces in the in residence corps program...he was the golden boy...and jumped all over it with greed, ego and mouth...he was flat out mean...victim? I don't think so...even if he was conned by Wierwille, he had his own agenda from day one. Within the phoney world of Wierwille's false doctrines, Martindale saw himself as "some great one"...the man was pathetic.
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RumRunner
LCM a victim?!?! Isn't that like calling Goebbels, Goering, Mendele, Eichmann victims because Hitler ran the thousand year Reich?!?!?!
CRIMINALS - ALL OF THEM! LCM is a criminal too; as are others of the depraved Vic's henchmen - as is most any one else whether in TWI, the local street corner, or on GSC who still follows and propounds the depraved Nazi's "teachings" rather than debunk his debaucherous and nefarious mythologies.
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now I see
I have seen these so called leaders still act ruthlessly and cut people off at the knees, just as their mentor pervy vic did, don't be fooled, these men who were groomed by vic and in his inner circle are corrupted from the inside, they still admire the man.
They can rest on their laurels from their ministry glory days and possess names of renown from past hierarchial stature, but peel away the outward facade and you may find lost, yet ruthless, cold and disturbed human beings underneath. Â If one has walked far enough away from God to have embraced, adopted and idolized the ways of a man like weirwille, who personally taught them and groomed them, and they've never repented....how much can they possible reflect anything but what the legacy of pervy vic, King Okie, Rozilla, et al, have given us?...a lot of leaven makes a bad lump.
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Bolshevik
right, I don't see any innocent parties. If you don't leave twi the day you turn 18, you're an abuser.
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skyrider
Are you serious? <_<
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excathedra
i personally would love to hear -- from former leaders -- how they were a victim of the veepster -- and not just how they tried to help victims
hope that makes sense
i'm not saying that in a judgmental way at all. honest question.
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potato
some were abusers well before 18, and some who've left still are abusers, so what? and sure, as far as we went along with the witchhunts and unreasonable expectations, as far as we carried out orders from above, we unfortunately were party to the abuse. it's called abuse by proxy, in case anyone is interested. I personally was used to browbeat people into doing "the word", after being browbeaten myself. was I a victim at the time? yes. did I victimize others? I tried, thinking I was saving their wayward souls. thank god most of them didn't listen to me. one girl I know went through a lot of emotional abuse of which I'm afraid I was minimally involved, and if I ever see her I will apologize for it. she put up with a lot at the hands of the branch coordinator who was a snake, because she wanted to be right with god. the rest of my guilt is composed of sticking my nose in other peoples' business by order of the limb coordinator or obeying the M&A's. does that make me an abuser, right here, right now?
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Ham
I don't think it was quite that black and white..
I'd admit.. things would be be far more understandable and such if conditions were that black and white..
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Bolshevik
you? no
I was talking about he 19-20 something's in twi now who don't need leadership to tell them to do anything. It all comes natural.
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potato
ah, them! context is everything.
I was just talking about them somewhere else, as a matter of fact. they are asleep. drones. I suppose some of them are so damaged by being raised inside they will never recover. they will abuse because they were taught to be that way. I don't know that I can say they're all abusers, though. you'd know better than I.
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TheHighWay
Interesting... I just watched "Driving Lessons" with Rupert Grint (Ron Weasley of Harry Potter fame).
He plays a young man who has been raised in a highly disfunctional family: a Pastor father who hides within his religion because he is unhappy with the rest of his life, and dominant, controlling, manipulative mom who uses her overt Christian "good deeds" to hide her real sins. It takes a complete outsider who virtually hijacks this young man to shake him out of the patterns that had formed his life and thinking to that point, and even then as things are happening all around him he stays true to his training (and in his emotional cave) for a long, long time. And with each tentative step away from it, he runs back again because it is all he has ever known. It is what he was told was "right" and "true" and he wants to believe it, even when the evidence that it is all wrong is right in front of his face.
It's a quirky little movie with some highly quirky characters but whew, a lot of it reminded me of "the good old twi days". Clearly the guy who wrote and directed this understands a whole lot about human nature!
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doojable
Rent "The Apostle" with Robert Duvall if you want to see a good depiction of the bad side of TWI
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Bolshevik
what some consider abuse others consider love. One of these kids was practically licking his lips as he uh, reproved me or something. (I just played along to not escalate things). Not the only kid who's done that know that I think about it. They enjoy the power.
how is lcm different than the rest of us? I don't really know. At least I don't see it.
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Twinky
Dooj, there are some clips from The Apostle, including the opening 11 mins, on Youtube. Very scary, very emotion-whipping-up, no substance. I found myself cringing. But I do know where VPW got the idea for that white suit!! (Ah no, Duvall plagiarized VPW's idea, no?)
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now I see
Didn't Duval  take the PLAF class?
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DocHoliday
Your abuse by proxy reference is a valid one. I think that everyone who sat by and let abuse go one were indeed, at the very least, guilty of empowering the Movers and Shakers. That being said, I can sympathise with some people more than others, for example people who were primarily involved because of their spouse, etc. Especially if they did not go out of their way to abuse others. Some people may have had more "awareness" than others.
In my own former household, I have little sympathy for anyone. They were all relatively intelligent and "aware" people. Looking into their eyes, I felt strongely that they full well *knew* what was wrong and right. They chose to do whatever benefited them the most in the Way.
The fact that you are willing to apologize for some of your actions makes you a FAR better person than anyone I knew in my Household and Branch. The closest thing to remorse I ever saw was when one of the men in the Household couldn't meet my gaze after a "meeting". I ran into one of the girls months after I bailed, and she acted puzzled when I didn't run over and chat like nothing ever happened. And she was one of the main participants.
One of the primary reasons I bailed was because I did not want to be party to the crap I saw going on. But then again, I had only myself to worry about. (Not counting a slight romantic interest.) It was far easier for me to ditch than it may have been for others.
We all make mistakes, and being willing to acknowledge them and ask forgiveness is a huge step in balancing the sheet. Oh, if only there were more like you in my former branch!
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okeydokey
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excathedra
yeah yeah yeah we all make mistakes
when you think you're doing god's will, it changes things
duh
okay i apologize to anyone i ever looked at or got f'd by
soww
y
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waysider
Hey there okeydokey.
Welcome to the G-Spot.
How's about a latte?
Not sure I understood your post.
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Bolshevik
maybe in the "old days" people were motivated by "doing god's will"
that's not The Way International I know.
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leafytwiglet
I am curious Bolshie you were in past your 18th birthday do you consider yourself an abuser too?
and are there things you regret that you were party to when you were in?
I know of one incident in my TWI past I was a party to but not in any way really able to stop it... Now as an adult I could do it but at the time there is no way I was capable.. In all honesty I just didn't have enough knowledge of the world or the word to stop that freight train.
Now is a different story.... and I do often think of it with great regret that I didn't know what to do to stop it.
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