Light reflects and reveals. Jesus's statement doesn't present the option of light or darkness, rather those words suggest that how a person chooses to "see" will determine how much of either they allow. Darkness reveals nothing, light makes clear. It's really about a person's mindset. "Seek and you will find" is a good example of that, to me. Don't seek and you don't find, it's pretty simple really. Or funble around without a clue and you may bump into something or get bumped into by something.
In that way everyone can be a victim, but not everyone is always a victim. When we make clear choices we may be duped but our actions take us on a path, and it can be one we wouldn't choose if we had better, greater information and perspective at the time.
In this topic we could ask "Would VPW have done some of the things he did, made the choices he did at the time he did, if he'd really understood fully the ramifications?" I don't know the answer to that.
He could have been misguided? Took bad advice? And that clouded his vision of things? The "W" on the compass looked like an "N"?
At some point, his actions would be clearly wrong to many, but you can't really make a judgment about what going on inside. It could seem okay to him, in his world.
Now, if you were operating "all nine", you would know right away. . .
I was making a good-faith attempt to address your questions.
Looks like you had your mind made up long before starting the thread,
and just wanted a thread to vent.
Mind you, if you'd labelled it a thread where you just needed to vent,
I would have been fine with that.
I didn't start this thread.
A better thread would have been about if the corps were victims, or if it is possible to take responsibility for The Way. Better to peg it on a guy who died @24 years ago. Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer.
People have had decades to do something. Why wouldn't my mind be made up?
Now, if you were operating "all nine", you would know right away. . .
That's a ridiculous statement, Bolshevik. You can maintain your attitude but it doesn't warrant any further serious response from me.
You started the other thread, and this thread was started in direct response to your posting about
vpw and whether he's a "victim" or not.
A better thread would have been about if the corps were victims, or if it is possible to take responsibility for The Way. Better to peg it on a guy who died @24 years ago. Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer.
People have had decades to do something. Why wouldn't my mind be made up?
Well, you've grossly oversimplified the situation, and cut out everything that didn't
support your position.
You may as well say
"Does every current German citizen bear responsibility for the Nazi regime? Better to peg it on a guy who died in 1945.
Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer."
By your system, everyone except possibly yourself (who was innocent of twi?) was EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR TWI.
Meanwhile, we have a man who defined an organization so as to provide him as much money as its structure
was able to provide (immoral) , who broke the law to plagiarize the works of others (illegal) to provide him a marketable
product, who put forth the works of others were all the result of conferences between him and God Almighty (immoral),
who set out to try to find out how to incorporate "God approves of orgies" into his system when he thought some
Christians were saying that (immoral), who sent others to set up groups then shoved their leaders out as soon as the
groups were in place (immoral), who made all sorts of claims of a "leadership program" that allowed him to have
people PAY to be in a program where they did the manual labor required on-grounds (immoral),
who required the applicants TO that program to write autobiographies, then used those autobiographies
to target some women to rape, or drug and rape (illegal and immoral), who set up an elaborate framework to cover
his tracks so that almost nobody even SUSPECTED any of these things until the invention of the internet,
and carefully cultivated an inner circle who were "insiders" to all this and were PARTICIPANTS and CO-CONSPIRATORS
in this.
This man set up a structure, and used large numbers of legitimate Christians with genuine desire to serve God and help
others, and made them his SMOKESCREEN.
Blame all of them EQUALLY with him?
He set out to do evil. They set out to do good. He deceived them. They were deceived.
Should they have looked closer? In many cases, yes. Is that equally bad as what he did?
Do you blame the animal for falling in the trap?
With 20/20 hindsight, it's EASY to see what MIGHT have been done, what MIGHT have worked.
The few who found out and spoke up were VILIFIED and VILLAINIZED so no one would believe them.
In fact, one of them was kept under ARMED GUARD.
Equally to blame with the man who set up the framework, and those who maintained it with him
and PARTICIPATED in it?
In some cases, it's taken decades to FIND OUT ALL THIS.
Call me "simple-minded" all you wish. I say the rapist who set this up, and got others to assist him
and join him in the rapes were MORE RESPONSIBLE than the people who just tried to do their best
Well, you've grossly oversimplified the situation, and cut out everything that didn't
support your position.
You may as well say
"Does every current German citizen bear responsibility for the Nazi regime? Better to peg it on a guy who died in 1945.
Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer."
By your system, everyone except possibly yourself (who was innocent of twi?) was EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR TWI.
I'm not excluding myself. I am born of twi and it will always be part of what I am, without it, there wouldn't be me, I'm a result, with all my wayfer thinking and attitudes. I feel responsibility to see to it that it is squelched. I wasn't there to start twi, I feel responsible though.
Meanwhile, we have a man who defined an organization so as to provide him as much money as its structure
was able to provide (immoral) , who broke the law to plagiarize the works of others (illegal) to provide him a marketable
product, who put forth the works of others were all the result of conferences between him and God Almighty (immoral),
who set out to try to find out how to incorporate "God approves of orgies" into his system when he thought some
Christians were saying that (immoral), who sent others to set up groups then shoved their leaders out as soon as the
groups were in place (immoral), who made all sorts of claims of a "leadership program" that allowed him to have
people PAY to be in a program where they did the manual labor required on-grounds (immoral),
who required the applicants TO that program to write autobiographies, then used those autobiographies
to target some women to rape, or drug and rape (illegal and immoral), who set up an elaborate framework to cover
his tracks so that almost nobody even SUSPECTED any of these things until the invention of the internet,
and carefully cultivated an inner circle who were "insiders" to all this and were PARTICIPANTS and CO-CONSPIRATORS
in this.
This man set up a structure, and used large numbers of legitimate Christians with genuine desire to serve God and help
others, and made them his SMOKESCREEN.
[/b]
and he's not here to punish or demand stupid apologies from. People who did choose or still choose or are starting to choose to make a god out of him are though. Internet or no internet, people choose to do this.
I'm not excluding myself. I am born of twi and it will always be part of what I am, without it, there wouldn't be me, I'm a result, with all my wayfer thinking and attitudes. I feel responsibility to see to it that it is squelched. I wasn't there to start twi, I feel responsible though.
At most, you're responsible for what you did- actions you took, and things you said.
(Then and now.) If you were born or raised in twi, you had absolutely no say in the matter,
and were NOT responsible for either.
Me, I never heard of twi or vpw until vpw was dead. I certainly was not responsible for
vpw in any way. If I bore any responsibility regarding twi, it was in the carrying away from
twi the arrogant d*head attitudes I learned in twi. (I wasn't responsible for them teaching it,
I was responsible for my young-naive-stupid self perpetuating the attitudes.)
Much of it I was able to ditch in the first few years.
Some of it took a little longer.
I still keep an eye out in case some bad behaviors show their faces one of these days. (Metaphorically.)
I also like to keep the truth out there so others who might fall into the snare of twi don't fall into
the snare of twi.
Proverbs 1:17
Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
At most, you're responsible for what you did- actions you took, and things you said.
(Then and now.) If you were born or raised in twi, you had absolutely no say in the matter,
and were NOT responsible for either.
Me, I never heard of twi or vpw until vpw was dead. I certainly was not responsible for
vpw in any way. If I bore any responsibility regarding twi, it was in the carrying away from
twi the arrogant d*head attitudes I learned in twi. (I wasn't responsible for them teaching it,
I was responsible for my young-naive-stupid self perpetuating the attitudes.)
Much of it I was able to ditch in the first few years.
. . .
I don't think I share you're ideas on responsibility. Our actions and attitudes contribute to something much bigger. To isolate each individuals input and judge them on that. . . I think something gets lost. It's too big.
I don't think you can really blame vpw or leadership for today's twi followers. Being snared doesn't describe them.
Hmmm, not so sure about that. But I think that if you do feel a responsibility, you should take it seriously. If you think you're part of the cause, the problem, the disease and want to be part of the cure it makes sense to embrace that and work it out. That may be true. If that's what you believe, go for it.
In your own world you seem to see everyone else the same as you in regards to cause and fault. That's understandable and is debatable but not true, IMO. By that I mean it's not a true or correct conclusion. That you've come to that conclusion is understandable though, from what you've written here. My only recommendation would be that this not be the only means of expression you have for your convictions (and I'm not assuming it is) and that you work out some realistic, helpful ways to act on your convictions and proceed with your life. I do wish you the best.
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waysider
The only guy who can answer those questions is currently feeding the worms.
excathedra
pillfal has something just for you :)
potato
I think you're both "right", based on my own observations of narcissists. their pathological need for admiration leads them to become what people want. if vpw saw that people wanted what these other s
Bolshevik
He could have been misguided? Took bad advice? And that clouded his vision of things? The "W" on the compass looked like an "N"?
At some point, his actions would be clearly wrong to many, but you can't really make a judgment about what going on inside. It could seem okay to him, in his world.
Now, if you were operating "all nine", you would know right away. . .
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socks
Now, if you were operating "all nine", you would know right away. . .
That's a ridiculous statement, Bolshevik. You can maintain your attitude but it doesn't warrant any further serious response from me.
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WordWolf
I was making a good-faith attempt to address your questions.
Looks like you had your mind made up long before starting the thread,
and just wanted a thread to vent.
Mind you, if you'd labelled it a thread where you just needed to vent,
I would have been fine with that.
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Bolshevik
I didn't start this thread.
A better thread would have been about if the corps were victims, or if it is possible to take responsibility for The Way. Better to peg it on a guy who died @24 years ago. Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer.
People have had decades to do something. Why wouldn't my mind be made up?
I don't make this stuff up.
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WordWolf
TECHNICALLY, no.
You started the other thread, and this thread was started in direct response to your posting about
vpw and whether he's a "victim" or not.
Well, you've grossly oversimplified the situation, and cut out everything that didn't
support your position.
You may as well say
"Does every current German citizen bear responsibility for the Nazi regime? Better to peg it on a guy who died in 1945.
Makes it easy for people to just walk away or sit at a computer."
By your system, everyone except possibly yourself (who was innocent of twi?) was EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR TWI.
Meanwhile, we have a man who defined an organization so as to provide him as much money as its structure
was able to provide (immoral) , who broke the law to plagiarize the works of others (illegal) to provide him a marketable
product, who put forth the works of others were all the result of conferences between him and God Almighty (immoral),
who set out to try to find out how to incorporate "God approves of orgies" into his system when he thought some
Christians were saying that (immoral), who sent others to set up groups then shoved their leaders out as soon as the
groups were in place (immoral), who made all sorts of claims of a "leadership program" that allowed him to have
people PAY to be in a program where they did the manual labor required on-grounds (immoral),
who required the applicants TO that program to write autobiographies, then used those autobiographies
to target some women to rape, or drug and rape (illegal and immoral), who set up an elaborate framework to cover
his tracks so that almost nobody even SUSPECTED any of these things until the invention of the internet,
and carefully cultivated an inner circle who were "insiders" to all this and were PARTICIPANTS and CO-CONSPIRATORS
in this.
This man set up a structure, and used large numbers of legitimate Christians with genuine desire to serve God and help
others, and made them his SMOKESCREEN.
Blame all of them EQUALLY with him?
He set out to do evil. They set out to do good. He deceived them. They were deceived.
Should they have looked closer? In many cases, yes. Is that equally bad as what he did?
Do you blame the animal for falling in the trap?
With 20/20 hindsight, it's EASY to see what MIGHT have been done, what MIGHT have worked.
The few who found out and spoke up were VILIFIED and VILLAINIZED so no one would believe them.
In fact, one of them was kept under ARMED GUARD.
Equally to blame with the man who set up the framework, and those who maintained it with him
and PARTICIPATED in it?
In some cases, it's taken decades to FIND OUT ALL THIS.
Call me "simple-minded" all you wish. I say the rapist who set this up, and got others to assist him
and join him in the rapes were MORE RESPONSIBLE than the people who just tried to do their best
to do the right thing.
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Bolshevik
harsh toward whom?
Is it harsh because I said it, or because it's a reality we deal with?
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Bolshevik
It was sarcasm, yes.
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Bolshevik
I'm not excluding myself. I am born of twi and it will always be part of what I am, without it, there wouldn't be me, I'm a result, with all my wayfer thinking and attitudes. I feel responsibility to see to it that it is squelched. I wasn't there to start twi, I feel responsible though.
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Bolshevik
and he's not here to punish or demand stupid apologies from. People who did choose or still choose or are starting to choose to make a god out of him are though. Internet or no internet, people choose to do this.
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WordWolf
At most, you're responsible for what you did- actions you took, and things you said.
(Then and now.) If you were born or raised in twi, you had absolutely no say in the matter,
and were NOT responsible for either.
Me, I never heard of twi or vpw until vpw was dead. I certainly was not responsible for
vpw in any way. If I bore any responsibility regarding twi, it was in the carrying away from
twi the arrogant d*head attitudes I learned in twi. (I wasn't responsible for them teaching it,
I was responsible for my young-naive-stupid self perpetuating the attitudes.)
Much of it I was able to ditch in the first few years.
Some of it took a little longer.
I still keep an eye out in case some bad behaviors show their faces one of these days. (Metaphorically.)
I also like to keep the truth out there so others who might fall into the snare of twi don't fall into
the snare of twi.
Proverbs 1:17
Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
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Bolshevik
Equally, or 2%, I don't care. Any amount is enough. Are we focusing on just the raped women here?
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Bolshevik
I don't think I share you're ideas on responsibility. Our actions and attitudes contribute to something much bigger. To isolate each individuals input and judge them on that. . . I think something gets lost. It's too big.
I don't think you can really blame vpw or leadership for today's twi followers. Being snared doesn't describe them.
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Share on other sites
socks
Hmmm, not so sure about that. But I think that if you do feel a responsibility, you should take it seriously. If you think you're part of the cause, the problem, the disease and want to be part of the cure it makes sense to embrace that and work it out. That may be true. If that's what you believe, go for it.
In your own world you seem to see everyone else the same as you in regards to cause and fault. That's understandable and is debatable but not true, IMO. By that I mean it's not a true or correct conclusion. That you've come to that conclusion is understandable though, from what you've written here. My only recommendation would be that this not be the only means of expression you have for your convictions (and I'm not assuming it is) and that you work out some realistic, helpful ways to act on your convictions and proceed with your life. I do wish you the best.
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Bolshevik
You have a way of putting things lightly, not my talent, for sure.
Adieu
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excathedra
i'm sorry -- haven't read the whole thread
but if i had all the answers, i'd still be a wayfer
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