Have you ever realized how easy it is to lie to leadership? Just play along? You could easily make your way up through the ranks. Easily. Who's the victim? Who's the deceiver?
Have you ever realized how easy it is to lie to leadership? Just play along? You could easily make your way up through the ranks. Easily. Who's the victim? Who's the deceiver?
Back then, I wouldn't have dared to lie to leadership. They had us believing they could get revelation when they needed it. (Reach up in Daddy's cookie jar.) And they used the Ananias & Saphira scripture to hold us at bay. There was that, and the danger of leaving the hedge of protection. If you just "played along to climb the ladder", after realizing it was a crock of road apples, that would make you the deceiver. I believe that's what VPW did.
Back then, I wouldn't have dared to lie to leadership. They had us believing they could get revelation when they needed it. (Reach up in Daddy's cookie jar.) And they used the Ananias & Saphira scripture to hold us at bay. There was that, and the danger of leaving the hedge of protection.
If someone really believes this at first, sooner or later, they will no longer care what will happen.
If you just "played along to climb the ladder", after realizing it was a crock of road apples, that would make you the deceiver. I believe that's what VPW did.
I believe many, perhaps thousands, ladder-climbed, as they do now. Probably for the same reason vpw did what he did. It's an organization begging for those kind of people. Everyone wants to be like vpw. He may have set a snare for a few. But I think he just sent out invitations for many others.
One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership.
"One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership."
That is a very general statement Bolsh. I would disagree, although not completely. The concept of inertia falls into play here - the tendency of an object to remain consistent with it's current state until and unless another force effects it. People - humans - are such complex organisms with individual decision making ability that inertia can't account for every outcome. And what you're describing is very much like inertia - that if enough people all say something the tendency would be for others entering the same conditions to say the same thing. But, of course it won't work that way because each person is completely different.
Or using a card game and odds of cards appearing from a deck, card counting won't allow you to estimate the next cards if the cards dealt always go back into the deck and get reshuffled - the odds are the same, or similar with each new deal from each "new" deck. Social interactions could be described the same way - if the group is made up of the same people all the time you would start to see a social order construct itself, seeking first to establish order and maintain continuance and to insure it's own well being and safety - but as new people enter into a group they bring their own expectations and contributions as well as decision making ability, so - in theory - you'd have to account for the cause(s) of the process you describe using other methods.
I'm not going to argue in favor of any one or a set of influences but they could include rewards, recognition, fear, safety, advancement, influence - a whole range of things. In a group like the Way it could also include things like knowledge, understanding and lots of other less tangible hmmm, things.
"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend" is a quote from the French philosopher Henri Bergson. I think it could apply to the discussion here, although not in the way it might sound. People will tend to interpret what they see in the way their mind understands it. However it's when we see things that we don't understand that our mind has the opportunity to consider what it is we "think" we see. And it's entirely possible to see something and not understand it and inquire further.
That's where I would agree with you, to the extent that if a person decides to remain static they may not inquire further (into a thing, anything) and if they do only to support what they already know.
But - and this is a big butt - if there is a "God" and a "spirit world" as you refer to it, we have to consider that. What is it, what are it's intents and purposes and what effect does that have on all of this? I would say your position doesn't account for the possibility that there is that aspect to our lives individually and collectively that effects what we do and the outcomes and if ignored will leave a void we can't ever fully explain or ignore. Well, it can be ignored, always, but that won't make it go away, regardless of claims to it's existence or non-existence.
Have you ever realized how easy it is to lie to leadership? Just play along? You could easily make your way up through the ranks. Easily. Who's the victim? Who's the deceiver?
If someone really believes this at first, sooner or later, they will no longer care what will happen.
I believe many, perhaps thousands, ladder-climbed, as they do now. Probably for the same reason vpw did what he did. It's an organization begging for those kind of people. Everyone wants to be like vpw. He may have set a snare for a few. But I think he just sent out invitations for many others.
One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership.
One thing you're discounting, Bol, is that a lot of us were perfectly sincere Christians
who meant well all along, wanted to learn about God, and wanted to please God.
We weren't particularly interested in climbing any ladders or lying to anyone.
We were scammed into thinking it was ALL of God- or the parts we wouldn't
have fallen for were HIDDEN from us (like all the "lockbox' stuff.)
We didn't intent to be victim, deceiver, liar, ladder-climber, set snares, or
uise claims to get anything from anyone else.
Perhaps you don't see it, but nearly every poster here who ever joined twi
of their own free will MEANT WELL at the time we joined.
Oh, almost all of us have learned since that there was scams and traps, and
many of us left over them, or were kicked out due to them, but until
that happened, most of us made good-faith efforts to do the RIGHT thing,
what we thought God wanted, not just what WE wanted.
Bol, you are wrong. It`s too bad that we weren`t all more smart and savvy ...too bad we didn`t have the internet and the input of thousands of people and information from which to draw from....No, we were just young and stupid, naieve enough to trust people who taught us bible....foolish enough to believe that we would understand what wasn`t clear in time, unfortunate enough to not have any guidance or direction, desperate enough to hope that we would indeed find all of the answers to life and Godliness promised...gullible enough to believe that these people held the answers that would aid us in overcoming our problems.....
Easier though to assign evil motive and intent and be mad at everyone isn`t it? It really isn`t an accurate portrayal of the 90 % of the people who didn`t become ladder climbing bullies that used and abused people.
Out of the hundreds of decent people I encountered in twi...many were the most decent and kind I have ever met.....most selflessly working for what they thought was a greater good, looking beyond themselves, generous, tirelessly working, trying to be a part of something bigger that would make the world a better place....in ten years and out of all of those people, I might have met 3 self serving arse holes.
Go ahead portray every poster here that has patiently tried to explain the hows and whys, the deceptions, the separation from family and support systems...call us all liars...assign evil motive...whatever....but will it really help you to understand your parents, or why your child hood was so difficult?
There is deep stuff here.... learning to understand and recognize deception, manipulation, control, yes, I`ll say it...the *B* word...brainwashed...so that it doesn`t happen again, so that we can equip our children to not be vulnerable. I`ll say it again...NOBODY deliberately allows people to assume control over their lives, their families, their finances...nobody wants their children(the ones that we weren`t forced to abort as untimely nuisances) to grow up hating them, dissolusioned with life... nobody wants to start all over again in their 30s, re examining our beliefs, learning how to function in the real world, playing catch up for the rest of your life...basically having to face up to the fact that you are dead wrong for a very long time....that EVERYTHING that you have believed, worked for, and lived your entire adult life, has been a lie.... so much lost...so much wasted :(
Bol, I`ll tell ya, we have enough sheet to deal with, enough guilt over our mistakes, difficult trials in raising our children into healthy productive adults in spite of the initial stupidity of the parents to be getting on with, without you assigning evil intent to us as well.
I did meet the occasional sincere and good person in TWI. Usually an "old-timer" out of the Jesus movement.
Speaking from my own experience, I did initially want to know God, but what attracted me to TWI was that I could know Him and He would give me a "More than Abundant Life". Stuff, Stuff, Stuff. Which BTW, I never saw.
What I got was grace, that sin might abound, and I LIKED IT!
It was never about me serving God, but Him serving me.
Where were the classes on serving your fellow man, loving your neighbor? Who was your neighbor? Other people in TWI and those we could corral into taking the class? Those who didn't we dropped like a hot potato, including members of our own family. After all, we were concerned with the true "Household."
I went from a "Unbeliever" who knew the difference between right and wrong, into a "Follower of the Way" who couldn't tell you abortion, foul sailor language, drinking in excess, smoking like a chimney, and whacking my kids with a spoon was wrong.
I guess I didn't really want to know God and serve Him that badly, I was happy just to renew my mind to evil. I could say bless you and offer you a "holy kiss" with one side of my mouth and trash you like a tornado right after twig. Yep, that was me.
What is interesting is I could do all this while quoting scriptures!! When tragedy befell one of us, it was blame the devil, but in reality we blamed the victim and their lack of believing. Way to pull together.
We were not even good cult members, much less good samaritans.
All in all, I just learned this from most everyone else, I was not alone.
This my experience anyway. I have had to deeply examine this in myself. It has not always been easy or fun.
Repentance was a dirty word in TWI. I am sorry for who I became. If I had really wanted to SERVE God in the beginning of my journey, I would have. I served myself and a cult.
God was there to serve me.
You know something is really wrong, when the atheist is a better moral example than we were.
(No offense to the atheist, I still believe this is often the case) My point is. . . talk was cheap in TWI.
Just one more thing, I may have had a hunger to know God, but it wasn't too difficult to be satisfied with sin instead.
I justified my behavior for many years, I don't justify my past anymore, especially my TWI years.
BUT, others experience may be different, for me it has been an often painful road of self-examination. I was a mean little Wayfer.
I just reread my post and wanted to add that I do understand how we were transformed into what we became.
I read the "Snapping" thread and it floored me. However, for me, the transformation was so ugly, I have had to come to terms with it.
Taking the time to look at what I became, the "whys", and what it is I really wanted in a relationship with God, has been difficult. Really painful. Coming to terms with the things I did while in TWI and justifying it with scripture, hurt.
It is not enough for me anymore to say. . . I wanted to know God. I really don't think I did. But please bear in mind. . . that is me.
As for the atheist comment, please don't take it the wrong way. . . it was meant in a nice way. We were suppose to be moral. . . we had a belief that was suppose to transform us. . . my point was. . . it didn't work, and you all were often better moral examples with no faith!!
Bol, you are wrong. It`s too bad that we weren`t all more smart and savvy ...too bad we didn`t have the internet and the input of thousands of people and information from which to draw from....No, we were just young and stupid, naieve enough to trust people who taught us bible....foolish enough to believe that we would understand what wasn`t clear in time, unfortunate enough to not have any guidance or direction, desperate enough to hope that we would indeed find all of the answers to life and Godliness promised...gullible enough to believe that these people held the answers that would aid us in overcoming our problems.....
Easier though to assign evil motive and intent and be mad at everyone isn`t it? It really isn`t an accurate portrayal of the 90 % of the people who didn`t become ladder climbing bullies that used and abused people.
I blame the group as whole, myself included. I believe I've seen plenty of finger pointing and evil assigning on this website anyway.
Out of the hundreds of decent people I encountered in twi...many were the most decent and kind I have ever met.....most selflessly working for what they thought was a greater good, looking beyond themselves, generous, tirelessly working, trying to be a part of something bigger that would make the world a better place....in ten years and out of all of those people, I might have met 3 self serving arse holes.
I assume vpw was still alive back then, along with the euphoria he provided.
Go ahead portray every poster here that has patiently tried to explain the hows and whys, the deceptions, the separation from family and support systems...call us all liars...assign evil motive...whatever....but will it really help you to understand your parents, or why your child hood was so difficult?
nope. It doesn't seem to explain the 17 years olds in twi today either. They have the internet and blah blah blah blah.
There is deep stuff here.... learning to understand and recognize deception, manipulation, control, yes, I`ll say it...the *B* word...brainwashed...so that it doesn`t happen again, so that we can equip our children to not be vulnerable. I`ll say it again...NOBODY deliberately allows people to assume control over their lives, their families, their finances...nobody wants their children(the ones that we weren`t forced to abort as untimely nuisances) to grow up hating them, dissolusioned with life... nobody wants to start all over again in their 30s, re examining our beliefs, learning how to function in the real world, playing catch up for the rest of your life...basically having to face up to the fact that you are dead wrong for a very long time....that EVERYTHING that you have believed, worked for, and lived your entire adult life, has been a lie.... so much lost...so much wasted :(
people want to be spoon fed and have their hand held through life.
Bol, I`ll tell ya, we have enough sheet to deal with, enough guilt over our mistakes, difficult trials in raising our children into healthy productive adults in spite of the initial stupidity of the parents to be getting on with, without you assigning evil intent to us as well.
No problem Bol, I mistakenly assumed that we were discussing what we did in twi and why. Go ahead and hold fast to what you want to believe about everybody else...make everyone villains in your mind, right or wrong...makes it alright to be really ....ed at everyone and everything. We have an old bumper sticker on the wall at our cabin that is perhaps pertinent here.
*My mind is ALREADY made up...(and in itty bitty letters underneith) don`t confuse me with the facts*
"One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership."
That is a very general statement Bolsh. I would disagree, although not completely. The concept of inertia falls into play here - the tendency of an object to remain consistent with it's current state until and unless another force effects it. People - humans - are such complex organisms with individual decision making ability that inertia can't account for every outcome. And what you're describing is very much like inertia - that if enough people all say something the tendency would be for others entering the same conditions to say the same thing. But, of course it won't work that way because each person is completely different.
Not everyone took the bait, no. There aren't millions or billions of wayfers. But if even a small group of people are all staring in the same direction, it's hard not to stop and try to see what they are looking at. A single individual with a lame grin is much easier to ignore, even if he promises you all the love in the world.
Or using a card game and odds of cards appearing from a deck, card counting won't allow you to estimate the next cards if the cards dealt always go back into the deck and get reshuffled - the odds are the same, or similar with each new deal from each "new" deck. Social interactions could be described the same way - if the group is made up of the same people all the time you would start to see a social order construct itself, seeking first to establish order and maintain continuance and to insure it's own well being and safety - but as new people enter into a group they bring their own expectations and contributions as well as decision making ability, so - in theory - you'd have to account for the cause(s) of the process you describe using other methods.
I'm not going to argue in favor of any one or a set of influences but they could include rewards, recognition, fear, safety, advancement, influence - a whole range of things. In a group like the Way it could also include things like knowledge, understanding and lots of other less tangible hmmm, things.
"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend" is a quote from the French philosopher Henri Bergson. I think it could apply to the discussion here, although not in the way it might sound. People will tend to interpret what they see in the way their mind understands it. However it's when we see things that we don't understand that our mind has the opportunity to consider what it is we "think" we see. And it's entirely possible to see something and not understand it and inquire further.
That's where I would agree with you, to the extent that if a person decides to remain static they may not inquire further (into a thing, anything) and if they do only to support what they already know.
It takes work to remain static. A lot of work.
But - and this is a big butt - if there is a "God" and a "spirit world" as you refer to it, we have to consider that. What is it, what are it's intents and purposes and what effect does that have on all of this? I would say your position doesn't account for the possibility that there is that aspect to our lives individually and collectively that effects what we do and the outcomes and if ignored will leave a void we can't ever fully explain or ignore. Well, it can be ignored, always, but that won't make it go away, regardless of claims to it's existence or non-existence.
I'm sure there could be numerous explainations for this "void". If there really is indeed a "void", that would probably be the first question.
No problem Bol, I mistakenly assumed that we were discussing what we did in twi and why. Go ahead and hold fast to what you want to believe about everybody else...make everyone villains in your mind, right or wrong...makes it alright to be really ....ed at everyone and everything. We have an old bumper sticker on the wall at our cabin that is perhaps pertinent here.
*My mind is ALREADY made up...(and in itty bitty letters underneith) don`t confuse me with the facts*
i think i meant well.... i always wanted to help people and i tried to do that in twi twig and branch etc. but i can't tell how much of me joined because of my own neediness or my desire to help others. it was all kind of mixed in together
but i don't think it was right for the reverend doctor wierwille to say it was god's will to heal a young lady's life (who had been sexually abused as a child [and he was aware of it] by having sex with the old fella' (gross)
In the 60s, it wasn't all about "me, me, me" and making lots of money. I'm not sure if it was because of our youth or because we were products of our time, but many of us were more concerned with making this old world a better place. It was idealistic, of course, but that's just how it was. That's a hard concept to convey to the younger generation who have been conditioned to put their own well being above that of their fellow man.
um, in context of twi, I see "ladder climbing" as trying to get closer to God. The closer you are the more he loves you blah blah blah . . . You climb the ladder, to get revvy and be more spiritual etc. God talks to the people at the top more.
To my way of thinking there is an identifiable void, yes, Bolshevik. I would base that on a comparison of two things, one of those being the nature of life. I'm going to make some "big fat claims" here, very general statements, to keep this brief. First, it's been accepted that life has a "lifespan", when it's recognized in a system, entity - a plant, an animal, humans. Observation tells us that life begins and ends, proliferating along the way but any single instance of an independent "living" organism or system tends to come...and go. Yet at the same time it's understood that energy can constantly change form, transfer but not be destroyed, or no longer exist. There would appear to be a case for at least suggesting that what we see as live/die, come/go isn't the only way to view existence.
Proliferation itself indicates to me that life is interested in continuing, not ending. In fact, that an organism can have the capacity to grow, change, proliferate, protect itself and survive would indicate that the ultimate outcome for "life" would not have to be to "die". I think you've addressed that observation elsewhere if I'm not mistaken. I would make a differentiation between "die" and "change" or "contiunue". And that process could be said - could be - said to actually give all indications that if allowed to continue life would never end. "Allowed" is a loaded term - I mean that since we observe that plants, animals and humans, all that we see, does indeed eventually fail, I'd have to ask the question if that is in fact "normal" or the logical outcome for an organism that appears to be designed to continue indefinitely. So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean?
So yes, I see a "void", or in other words a level of understanding that begs to be revealed. But as you say, if the work is expended towards remaining static, that could certainly be at cross purposes to the ideas of growth, change and continuance.
I don't think for a second that all I experienced and saw over the years I was in the Way was wishful thinking or a regurgitation of what I thought someone else wanted . I can't account for why some see nothing where others see somethng although I think Bergson's line offers a possible explanation. I've always used the example of a light being turned on. In darkness one minute and then - even for a moment - the light's on and your vision is clear. When that happens, you see clearly for a moment and it's impossible to forget what you saw. The memory may dim and diffuse itself over time but it's harder to deny it than it is to just accept it. And when the light starts going on more than it's off - what was once dim comes into clearer focus.
Jesus is recorded to have said, in Matthew" "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
It's similar to Bergson's thought. If we choose to see darkness or turn a "blind eye" to what's in front of us - that's what we see. Or don't. "Seek and you will find". "Open your eyes". It's a worthy adominition to all of us I think.
um, in context of twi, I see "ladder climbing" as trying to get closer to God. The closer you are the more he loves you blah blah blah . . . You climb the ladder, to get revvy and be more spiritual etc. God talks to the people at the top more.
Maybe it's to get more eternal rewards too.
Didn't know if that was unclear or not.
I think I somewhat understand you.
However, I don't think that accurately describes the situation.
Naturally, we wanted to get to a place where our communication with God was intimate and readily accessible.
That, I think, was what many hoped would happen in the Advanced Class.
I don't see that as an effort to get God to love us anymore as individuals.
Likewise, the big push toward doing things for eternal rewards came a bit later, maybe the late 70s or early 80s.
I think some of us thought of our efforts as being more on the order of a spiritual Peace Corps. I'm not saying we were correct, just that, that might better describe the mindset we had.
To add - "ladder climbing" is the wrong visual. Get a short ladder, you don't go very high. In fact, you never go higher than your ladder.
A vertical model of progression is limiting. How high is high enough? Will I know it when I get there?
A horizontal model works better, in my opnion. Exchange, collaboration, shared resources. "Leadership" in a march....goes thataway, maybe in front but there's still shoe leather being burned, y'know?
Jesus is recorded to have said, in Matthew" "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
It's similar to Bergson's thought. If we choose to see darkness or turn a "blind eye" to what's in front of us - that's what we see. Or don't. "Seek and you will find". "Open your eyes". It's a worthy adominition to all of us I think.
Does this set up only two options? One or the other, be light or be dark?
To my way of thinking there is an identifiable void, yes, Bolshevik. I would base that on a comparison of two things, one of those being the nature of life. I'm going to make some "big fat claims" here, very general statements, to keep this brief. First, it's been accepted that life has a "lifespan", when it's recognized in a system, entity - a plant, an animal, humans. Observation tells us that life begins and ends, proliferating along the way but any single instance of an independent "living" organism or system tends to come...and go. Yet at the same time it's understood that energy can constantly change form, transfer but not be destroyed, or no longer exist. There would appear to be a case for at least suggesting that what we see as live/die, come/go isn't the only way to view existence.
Proliferation itself indicates to me that life is interested in continuing, not ending. In fact, that an organism can have the capacity to grow, change, proliferate, protect itself and survive would indicate that the ultimate outcome for "life" would not have to be to "die". I think you've addressed that observation elsewhere if I'm not mistaken. I would make a differentiation between "die" and "change" or "contiunue". And that process could be said - could be - said to actually give all indications that if allowed to continue life would never end. "Allowed" is a loaded term - I mean that since we observe that plants, animals and humans, all that we see, does indeed eventually fail, I'd have to ask the question if that is in fact "normal" or the logical outcome for an organism that appears to be designed to continue indefinitely. So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean?
. . .
Life can proliferate by giving individuals one task, or supporting role. Whether or not completed, the matter and energy can be transferred to other life. Just passing a baton, not really any choice in the matter, it's to big to argue with. Gold jewelry can be melted into new jewelry, the gold is the same gold, but the old jewelry is gone forever. That something else was there how can one show?
I think I've heard this question phrased "Is their an ontological explanation for the soul?"
The real question is, if there is no Silicon Heaven, then where do all the calculators go? :D
P.S.
not sure I understood this sentence: " So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean?"
Proliferation itself indicates to me that life is interested in continuing, not ending. In fact, that an organism can have the capacity to grow, change, proliferate, protect itself and survive would indicate that the ultimate outcome for "life" would not have to be to "die". I think you've addressed that observation elsewhere if I'm not mistaken. I would make a differentiation between "die" and "change" or "contiunue". And that process could be said - could be - said to actually give all indications that if allowed to continue life would never end. "Allowed" is a loaded term - I mean that since we observe that plants, animals and humans, all that we see, does indeed eventually fail, I'd have to ask the question if that is in fact "normal" or the logical outcome for an organism that appears to be designed to continue indefinitely. So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean?
. . .
Oh, this is about design? Why is there death? Was there always death?
I think most of the dreamed up theories say proliferation was in place before the cell even. Macromolecular self replication or whatever. Then came cells. They were either solar powered or ate each other.
So what is death? If my car breaks down, did it die? What is the different between plant and animal death? Do fish have feelings?
What is death? I don't know. . . when does human life begin?
I think vpw is dead. Although he may be living in Argentina with Hitler and Elvis. . .
WEll in answer to the beginning of the thread I would say as a child and a young man yes VPW was a victim but once a person steps over the line from being the victim to victimizing another they are no longer a victim, but now a victimizer.
I would also say that any person who was victimized but has made a conscious effort to move their life toward a more harmonious place is no longer a victim.=, in a sense they have found jhealing and strength and moved their life forward.
We as children and adults make choices every day. will I do this or will I do that... will I say or do something that is going to hurt that person or will I make an effort to word it so that it helps rather than hurts., or will I try to help or hurt that person.
Being victimized does not mean that you have to be a victimizer of others. In fact most victimized children actually grow up to be healthy functioning adults with a few minor issues.
Children and youth are traped in a situation they have very little control over but they do make choices even when they are little to either move their life in a different direction or follow in the footsteps of their abuser, when they grow up.
They also make reroutes in their life as they go along..
any person in TWI that abused some one else even if it was because some one else showed or told them to do it... is ultimately responsible for what they did.
Can they repent of it and be healed? of course they can. IT is all up to you what you will do in your life.
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waysider
The only guy who can answer those questions is currently feeding the worms.
excathedra
pillfal has something just for you :)
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I think you're both "right", based on my own observations of narcissists. their pathological need for admiration leads them to become what people want. if vpw saw that people wanted what these other s
Bolshevik
Have you ever realized how easy it is to lie to leadership? Just play along? You could easily make your way up through the ranks. Easily. Who's the victim? Who's the deceiver?
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waysider
Back then, I wouldn't have dared to lie to leadership. They had us believing they could get revelation when they needed it. (Reach up in Daddy's cookie jar.) And they used the Ananias & Saphira scripture to hold us at bay. There was that, and the danger of leaving the hedge of protection. If you just "played along to climb the ladder", after realizing it was a crock of road apples, that would make you the deceiver. I believe that's what VPW did.
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Bolshevik
If someone really believes this at first, sooner or later, they will no longer care what will happen.
I believe many, perhaps thousands, ladder-climbed, as they do now. Probably for the same reason vpw did what he did. It's an organization begging for those kind of people. Everyone wants to be like vpw. He may have set a snare for a few. But I think he just sent out invitations for many others.
One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership.
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socks
"One could "ladder-climb" in order to find out if it was a crock of road apples. The fact that it is easy leads one to realize nobody has any connection with a spirit world. Joe Believer was the real deceiver IMO. It's the claims of hundreds Joe Believers who claim PFAL changed their life and opened their eyes that causes others to listen to leadership."
That is a very general statement Bolsh. I would disagree, although not completely. The concept of inertia falls into play here - the tendency of an object to remain consistent with it's current state until and unless another force effects it. People - humans - are such complex organisms with individual decision making ability that inertia can't account for every outcome. And what you're describing is very much like inertia - that if enough people all say something the tendency would be for others entering the same conditions to say the same thing. But, of course it won't work that way because each person is completely different.
Or using a card game and odds of cards appearing from a deck, card counting won't allow you to estimate the next cards if the cards dealt always go back into the deck and get reshuffled - the odds are the same, or similar with each new deal from each "new" deck. Social interactions could be described the same way - if the group is made up of the same people all the time you would start to see a social order construct itself, seeking first to establish order and maintain continuance and to insure it's own well being and safety - but as new people enter into a group they bring their own expectations and contributions as well as decision making ability, so - in theory - you'd have to account for the cause(s) of the process you describe using other methods.
I'm not going to argue in favor of any one or a set of influences but they could include rewards, recognition, fear, safety, advancement, influence - a whole range of things. In a group like the Way it could also include things like knowledge, understanding and lots of other less tangible hmmm, things.
"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend" is a quote from the French philosopher Henri Bergson. I think it could apply to the discussion here, although not in the way it might sound. People will tend to interpret what they see in the way their mind understands it. However it's when we see things that we don't understand that our mind has the opportunity to consider what it is we "think" we see. And it's entirely possible to see something and not understand it and inquire further.
That's where I would agree with you, to the extent that if a person decides to remain static they may not inquire further (into a thing, anything) and if they do only to support what they already know.
But - and this is a big butt - if there is a "God" and a "spirit world" as you refer to it, we have to consider that. What is it, what are it's intents and purposes and what effect does that have on all of this? I would say your position doesn't account for the possibility that there is that aspect to our lives individually and collectively that effects what we do and the outcomes and if ignored will leave a void we can't ever fully explain or ignore. Well, it can be ignored, always, but that won't make it go away, regardless of claims to it's existence or non-existence.
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WordWolf
One thing you're discounting, Bol, is that a lot of us were perfectly sincere Christians
who meant well all along, wanted to learn about God, and wanted to please God.
We weren't particularly interested in climbing any ladders or lying to anyone.
We were scammed into thinking it was ALL of God- or the parts we wouldn't
have fallen for were HIDDEN from us (like all the "lockbox' stuff.)
We didn't intent to be victim, deceiver, liar, ladder-climber, set snares, or
uise claims to get anything from anyone else.
Perhaps you don't see it, but nearly every poster here who ever joined twi
of their own free will MEANT WELL at the time we joined.
Oh, almost all of us have learned since that there was scams and traps, and
many of us left over them, or were kicked out due to them, but until
that happened, most of us made good-faith efforts to do the RIGHT thing,
what we thought God wanted, not just what WE wanted.
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rascal
Amen Wolf!!
Bol, you are wrong. It`s too bad that we weren`t all more smart and savvy ...too bad we didn`t have the internet and the input of thousands of people and information from which to draw from....No, we were just young and stupid, naieve enough to trust people who taught us bible....foolish enough to believe that we would understand what wasn`t clear in time, unfortunate enough to not have any guidance or direction, desperate enough to hope that we would indeed find all of the answers to life and Godliness promised...gullible enough to believe that these people held the answers that would aid us in overcoming our problems.....
Easier though to assign evil motive and intent and be mad at everyone isn`t it? It really isn`t an accurate portrayal of the 90 % of the people who didn`t become ladder climbing bullies that used and abused people.
Out of the hundreds of decent people I encountered in twi...many were the most decent and kind I have ever met.....most selflessly working for what they thought was a greater good, looking beyond themselves, generous, tirelessly working, trying to be a part of something bigger that would make the world a better place....in ten years and out of all of those people, I might have met 3 self serving arse holes.
Go ahead portray every poster here that has patiently tried to explain the hows and whys, the deceptions, the separation from family and support systems...call us all liars...assign evil motive...whatever....but will it really help you to understand your parents, or why your child hood was so difficult?
There is deep stuff here.... learning to understand and recognize deception, manipulation, control, yes, I`ll say it...the *B* word...brainwashed...so that it doesn`t happen again, so that we can equip our children to not be vulnerable. I`ll say it again...NOBODY deliberately allows people to assume control over their lives, their families, their finances...nobody wants their children(the ones that we weren`t forced to abort as untimely nuisances) to grow up hating them, dissolusioned with life... nobody wants to start all over again in their 30s, re examining our beliefs, learning how to function in the real world, playing catch up for the rest of your life...basically having to face up to the fact that you are dead wrong for a very long time....that EVERYTHING that you have believed, worked for, and lived your entire adult life, has been a lie.... so much lost...so much wasted :(
Bol, I`ll tell ya, we have enough sheet to deal with, enough guilt over our mistakes, difficult trials in raising our children into healthy productive adults in spite of the initial stupidity of the parents to be getting on with, without you assigning evil intent to us as well.
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geisha779
I did meet the occasional sincere and good person in TWI. Usually an "old-timer" out of the Jesus movement.
Speaking from my own experience, I did initially want to know God, but what attracted me to TWI was that I could know Him and He would give me a "More than Abundant Life". Stuff, Stuff, Stuff. Which BTW, I never saw.
What I got was grace, that sin might abound, and I LIKED IT!
It was never about me serving God, but Him serving me.
Where were the classes on serving your fellow man, loving your neighbor? Who was your neighbor? Other people in TWI and those we could corral into taking the class? Those who didn't we dropped like a hot potato, including members of our own family. After all, we were concerned with the true "Household."
I went from a "Unbeliever" who knew the difference between right and wrong, into a "Follower of the Way" who couldn't tell you abortion, foul sailor language, drinking in excess, smoking like a chimney, and whacking my kids with a spoon was wrong.
I guess I didn't really want to know God and serve Him that badly, I was happy just to renew my mind to evil. I could say bless you and offer you a "holy kiss" with one side of my mouth and trash you like a tornado right after twig. Yep, that was me.
What is interesting is I could do all this while quoting scriptures!! When tragedy befell one of us, it was blame the devil, but in reality we blamed the victim and their lack of believing. Way to pull together.
We were not even good cult members, much less good samaritans.
All in all, I just learned this from most everyone else, I was not alone.
This my experience anyway. I have had to deeply examine this in myself. It has not always been easy or fun.
Repentance was a dirty word in TWI. I am sorry for who I became. If I had really wanted to SERVE God in the beginning of my journey, I would have. I served myself and a cult.
God was there to serve me.
You know something is really wrong, when the atheist is a better moral example than we were.
(No offense to the atheist, I still believe this is often the case) My point is. . . talk was cheap in TWI.
Just one more thing, I may have had a hunger to know God, but it wasn't too difficult to be satisfied with sin instead.
I justified my behavior for many years, I don't justify my past anymore, especially my TWI years.
BUT, others experience may be different, for me it has been an often painful road of self-examination. I was a mean little Wayfer.
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geisha779
I just reread my post and wanted to add that I do understand how we were transformed into what we became.
I read the "Snapping" thread and it floored me. However, for me, the transformation was so ugly, I have had to come to terms with it.
Taking the time to look at what I became, the "whys", and what it is I really wanted in a relationship with God, has been difficult. Really painful. Coming to terms with the things I did while in TWI and justifying it with scripture, hurt.
It is not enough for me anymore to say. . . I wanted to know God. I really don't think I did. But please bear in mind. . . that is me.
As for the atheist comment, please don't take it the wrong way. . . it was meant in a nice way. We were suppose to be moral. . . we had a belief that was suppose to transform us. . . my point was. . . it didn't work, and you all were often better moral examples with no faith!!
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Bolshevik
It doesn't sound like God protects his own. Perhaps the deception was planted long before you heard of twi.
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Bolshevik
I blame the group as whole, myself included. I believe I've seen plenty of finger pointing and evil assigning on this website anyway.
I assume vpw was still alive back then, along with the euphoria he provided.
nope. It doesn't seem to explain the 17 years olds in twi today either. They have the internet and blah blah blah blah.
people want to be spoon fed and have their hand held through life.
then stop reading my posts.
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rascal
No problem Bol, I mistakenly assumed that we were discussing what we did in twi and why. Go ahead and hold fast to what you want to believe about everybody else...make everyone villains in your mind, right or wrong...makes it alright to be really ....ed at everyone and everything. We have an old bumper sticker on the wall at our cabin that is perhaps pertinent here.
*My mind is ALREADY made up...(and in itty bitty letters underneith) don`t confuse me with the facts*
I won`t try any more, sorry.
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Bolshevik
Not everyone took the bait, no. There aren't millions or billions of wayfers. But if even a small group of people are all staring in the same direction, it's hard not to stop and try to see what they are looking at. A single individual with a lame grin is much easier to ignore, even if he promises you all the love in the world.
It takes work to remain static. A lot of work.
I'm sure there could be numerous explainations for this "void". If there really is indeed a "void", that would probably be the first question.
facts are just facts. If that.
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Bolshevik
I don't think that I've discounted that. In the spectrum of wayfer-types, I don't know who wouldn't sincerely claim they meant well.
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excathedra
i think i meant well.... i always wanted to help people and i tried to do that in twi twig and branch etc. but i can't tell how much of me joined because of my own neediness or my desire to help others. it was all kind of mixed in together
but i don't think it was right for the reverend doctor wierwille to say it was god's will to heal a young lady's life (who had been sexually abused as a child [and he was aware of it] by having sex with the old fella' (gross)
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waysider
In the 60s, it wasn't all about "me, me, me" and making lots of money. I'm not sure if it was because of our youth or because we were products of our time, but many of us were more concerned with making this old world a better place. It was idealistic, of course, but that's just how it was. That's a hard concept to convey to the younger generation who have been conditioned to put their own well being above that of their fellow man.
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Bolshevik
um, in context of twi, I see "ladder climbing" as trying to get closer to God. The closer you are the more he loves you blah blah blah . . . You climb the ladder, to get revvy and be more spiritual etc. God talks to the people at the top more.
Maybe it's to get more eternal rewards too.
Didn't know if that was unclear or not.
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socks
To my way of thinking there is an identifiable void, yes, Bolshevik. I would base that on a comparison of two things, one of those being the nature of life. I'm going to make some "big fat claims" here, very general statements, to keep this brief. First, it's been accepted that life has a "lifespan", when it's recognized in a system, entity - a plant, an animal, humans. Observation tells us that life begins and ends, proliferating along the way but any single instance of an independent "living" organism or system tends to come...and go. Yet at the same time it's understood that energy can constantly change form, transfer but not be destroyed, or no longer exist. There would appear to be a case for at least suggesting that what we see as live/die, come/go isn't the only way to view existence.
Proliferation itself indicates to me that life is interested in continuing, not ending. In fact, that an organism can have the capacity to grow, change, proliferate, protect itself and survive would indicate that the ultimate outcome for "life" would not have to be to "die". I think you've addressed that observation elsewhere if I'm not mistaken. I would make a differentiation between "die" and "change" or "contiunue". And that process could be said - could be - said to actually give all indications that if allowed to continue life would never end. "Allowed" is a loaded term - I mean that since we observe that plants, animals and humans, all that we see, does indeed eventually fail, I'd have to ask the question if that is in fact "normal" or the logical outcome for an organism that appears to be designed to continue indefinitely. So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean?
So yes, I see a "void", or in other words a level of understanding that begs to be revealed. But as you say, if the work is expended towards remaining static, that could certainly be at cross purposes to the ideas of growth, change and continuance.
I don't think for a second that all I experienced and saw over the years I was in the Way was wishful thinking or a regurgitation of what I thought someone else wanted . I can't account for why some see nothing where others see somethng although I think Bergson's line offers a possible explanation. I've always used the example of a light being turned on. In darkness one minute and then - even for a moment - the light's on and your vision is clear. When that happens, you see clearly for a moment and it's impossible to forget what you saw. The memory may dim and diffuse itself over time but it's harder to deny it than it is to just accept it. And when the light starts going on more than it's off - what was once dim comes into clearer focus.
Jesus is recorded to have said, in Matthew" "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
It's similar to Bergson's thought. If we choose to see darkness or turn a "blind eye" to what's in front of us - that's what we see. Or don't. "Seek and you will find". "Open your eyes". It's a worthy adominition to all of us I think.
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waysider
I think I somewhat understand you.
However, I don't think that accurately describes the situation.
Naturally, we wanted to get to a place where our communication with God was intimate and readily accessible.
That, I think, was what many hoped would happen in the Advanced Class.
I don't see that as an effort to get God to love us anymore as individuals.
Likewise, the big push toward doing things for eternal rewards came a bit later, maybe the late 70s or early 80s.
I think some of us thought of our efforts as being more on the order of a spiritual Peace Corps. I'm not saying we were correct, just that, that might better describe the mindset we had.
Peace Corps
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socks
To add - "ladder climbing" is the wrong visual. Get a short ladder, you don't go very high. In fact, you never go higher than your ladder.
A vertical model of progression is limiting. How high is high enough? Will I know it when I get there?
A horizontal model works better, in my opnion. Exchange, collaboration, shared resources. "Leadership" in a march....goes thataway, maybe in front but there's still shoe leather being burned, y'know?
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Bolshevik
Does this set up only two options? One or the other, be light or be dark?
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Bolshevik
Life can proliferate by giving individuals one task, or supporting role. Whether or not completed, the matter and energy can be transferred to other life. Just passing a baton, not really any choice in the matter, it's to big to argue with. Gold jewelry can be melted into new jewelry, the gold is the same gold, but the old jewelry is gone forever. That something else was there how can one show?
I think I've heard this question phrased "Is their an ontological explanation for the soul?"
The real question is, if there is no Silicon Heaven, then where do all the calculators go? :D
P.S.
not sure I understood this sentence: " So at the least I've found myself asking the question "why is dat, the fail thing?" and what does it mean?"
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Bolshevik
Oh, this is about design? Why is there death? Was there always death?
I think most of the dreamed up theories say proliferation was in place before the cell even. Macromolecular self replication or whatever. Then came cells. They were either solar powered or ate each other.
So what is death? If my car breaks down, did it die? What is the different between plant and animal death? Do fish have feelings?
What is death? I don't know. . . when does human life begin?
I think vpw is dead. Although he may be living in Argentina with Hitler and Elvis. . .
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Bolshevik
So was vpw a victim?
Nope.
Lions eat zebras. That's just what they do.
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leafytwiglet
WEll in answer to the beginning of the thread I would say as a child and a young man yes VPW was a victim but once a person steps over the line from being the victim to victimizing another they are no longer a victim, but now a victimizer.
I would also say that any person who was victimized but has made a conscious effort to move their life toward a more harmonious place is no longer a victim.=, in a sense they have found jhealing and strength and moved their life forward.
We as children and adults make choices every day. will I do this or will I do that... will I say or do something that is going to hurt that person or will I make an effort to word it so that it helps rather than hurts., or will I try to help or hurt that person.
Being victimized does not mean that you have to be a victimizer of others. In fact most victimized children actually grow up to be healthy functioning adults with a few minor issues.
Children and youth are traped in a situation they have very little control over but they do make choices even when they are little to either move their life in a different direction or follow in the footsteps of their abuser, when they grow up.
They also make reroutes in their life as they go along..
any person in TWI that abused some one else even if it was because some one else showed or told them to do it... is ultimately responsible for what they did.
Can they repent of it and be healed? of course they can. IT is all up to you what you will do in your life.
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