No this isn't about design, Bolsh. I'm not viewing this as an ontological discussion either, I'm not at the point of identifying an inherent taxonomy or hierarchy to organize these points conclusively in this discussion. The example of gold is a good one though, as the form changes in the process you describe but the gold stays the same.
you got me thinking, another topic of course
I wouldn't choose a flat lateral, one-to-one view of death in relationship to life, based on observation, is my point. On another thread you wrote "death began in Genesis as a result of rebellion. If God kills someone for any reason, who cares? Everyone is going to die someday anyway." What did that statement mean, to you?
In the context of my understanding of christianity outside twi, God rules. We carry the consequences of our ancestor, death and decay, for defying the order of things. Whether we die now, yesterday, or a million years from now; and the method of death; makes no difference whatsoever. Suffering is a given.
Light reflects and reveals. Jesus's statement doesn't present the option of light or darkness, rather those words suggest that how a person chooses to "see" will determine how much of either they allow. Darkness reveals nothing, light makes clear. It's really about a person's mindset. "Seek and you will find" is a good example of that, to me. Don't seek and you don't find, it's pretty simple really. Or funble around without a clue and you may bump into something or get bumped into by something.
. . .
(I was reminded of twi's "you hit what you look at" and GSC's "black and white thinking")
"chooses to see", "seek and you'll find", could be taken as seeking evidence of things you want to be there, suggestive, so to speak. . .
. . .
In that way everyone can be a victim, but not everyone is always a victim. When we make clear choices we may be duped but our actions take us on a path, and it can be one we wouldn't choose if we had better, greater information and perspective at the time.
In this topic we could ask "Would VPW have done some of the things he did, made the choices he did at the time he did, if he'd really understood fully the ramifications?" I don't know the answer to that.
I don't know that making vpw the devil helps, it just makes it easier . . .
I wouldn't choose a flat lateral, one-to-one view of death in relationship to life, based on observation, is my point. On another thread you wrote "death began in Genesis as a result of rebellion. If God kills someone for any reason, who cares? Everyone is going to die someday anyway." What did that statement mean, to you?
. . .
There was also the "sweat of thy brow something something work work work work . . ." which one could extend to the constant WTF? of trying figure things out.
Hmmm...seeking...and figuring things out...and having one's eye full of light are 3 different things to my mind.
If Genesis is the record of choice, there's nothing there about humanity's efforts to know God being a aweat. Not that many don't perspire in that pursuit. "Adam and Eve" didn't know God one minute and then lose half their brains the next. "Uh God, are you saying that...uh...God...uh...hmm...Eve...what were we...hey,what the fu....I'm sleepy".
I know that historically Christianity has embraced the "oil and water" "now you saw Him now you don't know your butt from your ear" model to it's cold moist heart, but I don't see that as the progression of events, not in Genesis anyway. The most common euphimism I hear is that man "lost his connection" to God. But did he lose his memory? If there's something to be remembered, it could account for that human tendency to wander around like they can't find their car keys but know they've got a car around here somewhere.
I've heard it said, from muslims I believe, that Abraham was special not because god spoke to him, but because he recognized his voice, and acted. He didn't have to stop and ask "did I hear something?".
Heck, twi was about trying to get as close as possible to the guy with the strongest connection to the supreme being . . .
VPW was a victim as much as anyone. Because of his stance towards cancer, and where it came from, he apparently didn't seek treatment for his cancer in a timely manner, which ultimately killed him. Instead of simply being ill, he harbored this dirty, shameful secret.
What a way to die.
He had a good thing going until it reared up its head and wacked him. He had people's unquestioning loyalty. He was living the dream. There was this sense from the hard-core followers that he would be the next guy to overcome death; that somehow the laws of nature just didn't apply to him. I remember thinking what would happen when this guy dies and people find out he's just a guy.
It was almost surreal.
When he was scheduled to roll into town (I'm remembering the yearly visit during the Indy 500), people acted as though we were getting a visit from the Pope. At least you could count on the coffee not being made from used grinds and served in used Styrofoam cups.
So now we've got people who deny that he screwed up, people who ignore that he screwed up, and people who are angry because he never admitted that he screwed up.
But no one ever held him to any standard of accountability when he was alive. People knew he had plagiarized, but never spoke out against it. It was understood that he borrowed heavily from other people's work. People allowed him to twist the meanings of words and concepts like adultery and fornication. Pretty much no one told the guy no.
He surrounded himself with people who catered to his every whim. He developed a training program that attracted people who would do his bidding without question, or risk being dismissed in shame. Most of you lapped it up and denigrated anyone who wasn't in it all the way like you were, or were willing to offer financial support. I know because I was one of those people.
I really do believe that most everyone shares some blame in shaping him into the leader and person he was.
VPW was a victim as much as anyone. Because of his stance towards cancer, and where it came from, he apparently didn't seek treatment for his cancer in a timely manner, which ultimately killed him. Instead of simply being ill, he harbored this dirty, shameful secret.
What a way to die.
If he was "in a prison", it was a gilded prison ENTIRELY OF HIS OWN MAKING.
He had no qualms against deceiving whoever he had to, in order to make his dream real.
He had no qualms against using people as merchandise, in order to fulfill his lusts.
If he failed to match his own press, it's his own fault for billing HIMSELF as Superman and
Green Lantern rolled into one.
He had a good thing going until it reared up its head and wacked him. He had people's unquestioning loyalty. He was living the dream. There was this sense from the hard-core followers that he would be the next guy to overcome death; that somehow the laws of nature just didn't apply to him. I remember thinking what would happen when this guy dies and people find out he's just a guy.
It was almost surreal.
And carefully designed that way by him.
When he was scheduled to roll into town (I'm remembering the yearly visit during the Indy 500), people acted as though we were getting a visit from the Pope. At least you could count on the coffee not being made from used grinds and served in used Styrofoam cups.
So now we've got people who deny that he screwed up, people who ignore that he screwed up, and people who are angry because he never admitted that he screwed up.
Ok, I can see where people should have done a LOT better at THAT part.
That he was a liar and deceiver is worth a little outrage. That he used people as things is worth a little outrage.
But no one ever held him to any standard of accountability when he was alive. People knew he had plagiarized, but never spoke out against it. It was understood that he borrowed heavily from other people's work. People allowed him to twist the meanings of words and concepts like adultery and fornication. Pretty much no one told the guy no.
When there were people who showed signs of standing up to him, vpw had them kicked out and their
reputations savaged so no one would listen to them. (This was before the internet.)
vpw KNEW he was conning people, and carefully selected WHO HE COULD CON. When there were people
with big families in twi, generally he left them alone. He avoided raping and molesting women who already
had big support networks of people who would believe him.
He surrounded himself with people who catered to his every whim. He developed a training program that attracted people who would do his bidding without question, or risk being dismissed in shame. Most of you lapped it up and denigrated anyone who wasn't in it all the way like you were, or were willing to offer financial support. I know because I was one of those people.
I really do believe that most everyone shares some blame in shaping him into the leader and person he was.
A) I share zero blame in shaping him into anything- partly because he worked hard to shape himself.
and partly because he was dead months before I ever heard of him.
B) We were all deceived, but not all of us were deceived the same way and to the same degree.
I do not say that even MOST of us "lapped it up" and I certainly don't know most of us "denigrated"
outsiders, or offered financial support. I did neither. I thought we were better, but I wasn't above
learning from other Christians in an attempt to reach a higher plateau.
MANY people fell for it. MANY people were HAPPY to fall for it. SOME insist on falling for it to this day.
I try not to pigeonhole EVERYONE or MOST based on that.
MANY people fell for it. MANY people were HAPPY to fall for it. SOME insist on falling for it to this day.
I try not to pigeonhole EVERYONE or MOST based on that.[/b]
Ok, fair enough.
Many who made it to the last session of PFAL were hooked. Most everyone who (got) gets to the place where (s)he (felt) feels (s)he (had) has to enter a program to feel like (s)he (was) is serving God, (s)he (was) is happily lapping it all up. I think it falls under Rodney Stark's Rational Choice Theory.
"The basic idea of rational choice theory is that patterns of behavior in societies reflect the choices made by individuals as they try to maximize their benefits and minimize their costs. In other words, people make decisions about how they should act by comparing the costs and benefits of different courses of action. As a result, patterns of behavior will develop within the society that result from those choices."
As people (invested) invest more time, money, and energy in something they (believed) believe (would) will ultimately benefit them, they (were) are forced to ignore clear signs that "benefits" (would) will not be forthcoming, at least in this life. VPW's lifestyle was somewhat of a carrot that drove people to act in his best interest, even at great personal sacrifice, as a means of receiving some benefit. For some it was "the hope". For others it was the opportunity to lord it over others, while claiming they weren't.
people stay in twi until it doesn't give them what they want. people want what vp promised.
so vpw raped women? the kids don't care . . .
"vpw was teaching the trees when he was a kid."
That's what he claimed.
Of course, he actually "borrowed" that story from Billy Graham.
"people stay in twi until it doesn't give them what they want. people want what vp promised."
I personally believe it is much more complex than that.
That explanation only accounts for people who were "me" oriented.
I believe there were many who weren't. ("Me" oriented, that is)
"so vpw raped women? the kids don't care . . ."
Do you think they would, perhaps, care a bit more if it had been their sister, mother, daughter or wife that had been raped? In fact, it may well have happened to a family member.
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waysider
The only guy who can answer those questions is currently feeding the worms.
excathedra
pillfal has something just for you :)
potato
I think you're both "right", based on my own observations of narcissists. their pathological need for admiration leads them to become what people want. if vpw saw that people wanted what these other s
Bolshevik
you got me thinking, another topic of course
In the context of my understanding of christianity outside twi, God rules. We carry the consequences of our ancestor, death and decay, for defying the order of things. Whether we die now, yesterday, or a million years from now; and the method of death; makes no difference whatsoever. Suffering is a given.
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Bolshevik
(I was reminded of twi's "you hit what you look at" and GSC's "black and white thinking")
"chooses to see", "seek and you'll find", could be taken as seeking evidence of things you want to be there, suggestive, so to speak. . .
I don't know that making vpw the devil helps, it just makes it easier . . .
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Bolshevik
There was also the "sweat of thy brow something something work work work work . . ." which one could extend to the constant WTF? of trying figure things out.
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socks
Hmmm...seeking...and figuring things out...and having one's eye full of light are 3 different things to my mind.
If Genesis is the record of choice, there's nothing there about humanity's efforts to know God being a aweat. Not that many don't perspire in that pursuit. "Adam and Eve" didn't know God one minute and then lose half their brains the next. "Uh God, are you saying that...uh...God...uh...hmm...Eve...what were we...hey,what the fu....I'm sleepy".
I know that historically Christianity has embraced the "oil and water" "now you saw Him now you don't know your butt from your ear" model to it's cold moist heart, but I don't see that as the progression of events, not in Genesis anyway. The most common euphimism I hear is that man "lost his connection" to God. But did he lose his memory? If there's something to be remembered, it could account for that human tendency to wander around like they can't find their car keys but know they've got a car around here somewhere.
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Bolshevik
I've heard it said, from muslims I believe, that Abraham was special not because god spoke to him, but because he recognized his voice, and acted. He didn't have to stop and ask "did I hear something?".
Heck, twi was about trying to get as close as possible to the guy with the strongest connection to the supreme being . . .
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Tzaia
VPW was a victim as much as anyone. Because of his stance towards cancer, and where it came from, he apparently didn't seek treatment for his cancer in a timely manner, which ultimately killed him. Instead of simply being ill, he harbored this dirty, shameful secret.
What a way to die.
He had a good thing going until it reared up its head and wacked him. He had people's unquestioning loyalty. He was living the dream. There was this sense from the hard-core followers that he would be the next guy to overcome death; that somehow the laws of nature just didn't apply to him. I remember thinking what would happen when this guy dies and people find out he's just a guy.
It was almost surreal.
When he was scheduled to roll into town (I'm remembering the yearly visit during the Indy 500), people acted as though we were getting a visit from the Pope. At least you could count on the coffee not being made from used grinds and served in used Styrofoam cups.
So now we've got people who deny that he screwed up, people who ignore that he screwed up, and people who are angry because he never admitted that he screwed up.
But no one ever held him to any standard of accountability when he was alive. People knew he had plagiarized, but never spoke out against it. It was understood that he borrowed heavily from other people's work. People allowed him to twist the meanings of words and concepts like adultery and fornication. Pretty much no one told the guy no.
He surrounded himself with people who catered to his every whim. He developed a training program that attracted people who would do his bidding without question, or risk being dismissed in shame. Most of you lapped it up and denigrated anyone who wasn't in it all the way like you were, or were willing to offer financial support. I know because I was one of those people.
I really do believe that most everyone shares some blame in shaping him into the leader and person he was.
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WordWolf
If he was "in a prison", it was a gilded prison ENTIRELY OF HIS OWN MAKING.
He had no qualms against deceiving whoever he had to, in order to make his dream real.
He had no qualms against using people as merchandise, in order to fulfill his lusts.
If he failed to match his own press, it's his own fault for billing HIMSELF as Superman and
Green Lantern rolled into one.
And carefully designed that way by him.
Ok, I can see where people should have done a LOT better at THAT part.
That he was a liar and deceiver is worth a little outrage. That he used people as things is worth a little outrage.
When there were people who showed signs of standing up to him, vpw had them kicked out and their
reputations savaged so no one would listen to them. (This was before the internet.)
vpw KNEW he was conning people, and carefully selected WHO HE COULD CON. When there were people
with big families in twi, generally he left them alone. He avoided raping and molesting women who already
had big support networks of people who would believe him.
A) I share zero blame in shaping him into anything- partly because he worked hard to shape himself.
and partly because he was dead months before I ever heard of him.
B) We were all deceived, but not all of us were deceived the same way and to the same degree.
I do not say that even MOST of us "lapped it up" and I certainly don't know most of us "denigrated"
outsiders, or offered financial support. I did neither. I thought we were better, but I wasn't above
learning from other Christians in an attempt to reach a higher plateau.
MANY people fell for it. MANY people were HAPPY to fall for it. SOME insist on falling for it to this day.
I try not to pigeonhole EVERYONE or MOST based on that.
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Tzaia
Ok, fair enough.
Many who made it to the last session of PFAL were hooked. Most everyone who (got) gets to the place where (s)he (felt) feels (s)he (had) has to enter a program to feel like (s)he (was) is serving God, (s)he (was) is happily lapping it all up. I think it falls under Rodney Stark's Rational Choice Theory.
"The basic idea of rational choice theory is that patterns of behavior in societies reflect the choices made by individuals as they try to maximize their benefits and minimize their costs. In other words, people make decisions about how they should act by comparing the costs and benefits of different courses of action. As a result, patterns of behavior will develop within the society that result from those choices."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory
As people (invested) invest more time, money, and energy in something they (believed) believe (would) will ultimately benefit them, they (were) are forced to ignore clear signs that "benefits" (would) will not be forthcoming, at least in this life. VPW's lifestyle was somewhat of a carrot that drove people to act in his best interest, even at great personal sacrifice, as a means of receiving some benefit. For some it was "the hope". For others it was the opportunity to lord it over others, while claiming they weren't.
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RumRunner
Whether he was a victim or not does not provide him with any excuse for the damage he caused to so many other lives...
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Bolshevik
You can't excuse dead people.
The teenagers in twi today, they have no excuse either . . .
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Tzaia
I don't think being a victim gives anyone an excuse.
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excathedra
i wouldn't put veepee and teenagers in the same boat
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Bolshevik
vpw was teaching the trees when he was a kid.
people stay in twi until it doesn't give them what they want. people want what vp promised.
so vpw raped women? the kids don't care . . .
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waysider
:o
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RumRunner
That's more than a little harsh...
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Bolshevik
I didn't raise them. What is your explanation for it?
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waysider
"vpw was teaching the trees when he was a kid."
That's what he claimed.
Of course, he actually "borrowed" that story from Billy Graham.
"people stay in twi until it doesn't give them what they want. people want what vp promised."
I personally believe it is much more complex than that.
That explanation only accounts for people who were "me" oriented.
I believe there were many who weren't. ("Me" oriented, that is)
"so vpw raped women? the kids don't care . . ."
Do you think they would, perhaps, care a bit more if it had been their sister, mother, daughter or wife that had been raped? In fact, it may well have happened to a family member.
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Bolshevik
perhaps maybe. People leave when twi no longer serves their imaginations . . .
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waysider
I don't understand that statement.
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Bolshevik
one could look at altruism as "me" oriented, it makes you feel good, i.e. "helper's high"
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waysider
That's like a dog chasing its tail, Mr. B.
The simple fact is, many people got involved because they saw it as a way to help their fellow man.
I think VPW, in contrast, got into it for purely selfish reasons.
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Bolshevik
Maybe I asked already,
he became a minister, thinking he would make a difference, then got all selfish?
I do agree that it is a you said "more complex". You can't know what his real motives were.
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WordWolf
We can go by what he said- understanding that he may lie or speak the truth.
He did speak to audiences in twi, and said he grew up considering ministry along with business
and music.
We know that he was a hell-raiser growing up. a FAN of vpw reported that.
We know they were surprised he was considering ministry.
By his own confession (TW:LiL), he said his own father thought he didn't have what it took to
be a proper minister.
By his own confession, he was only working as a minister for a year before he seriously considered
quitting, since he wasn't seeing amazing results. (TW:LiL)
By his own confession, he was a practicing minister for more than a year before he went to the
Bible to prepare his teachings, and didn't believe the Bible was God's Word. (TW:LiL).
Lacking any other source, it's not surprising that in LATER life, he habitually stole the work of
others and claimed it was his- that's how he started as a minister!
For those wondering, any competent junior high school, college and grad school teaches
plagiarism is wrong- including the ones he went to. He knew it was wrong-he did it anyway.
With all of that, he didn't state his motives. However, looking at the complete picture, there's a
consistent picture of a man who wasn't chosen of God, but who looked at ministry as a CAREER,
not a CALLING, a man who didn't do his own work, but used the work of others, who began as a
minister and had no beliefs concerning the Bible.
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rascal
Yeah, I never heard him talk about a desire to help people being one of his motivating factors.
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