Was VPW a "victim"?

[waysider]

Can we prove his deceptions were so "deliberate" and not some quirk of human behavior?

Yes

[potato]

cult leaders like vpw are "charismatic psychopathic narcissists" or something. not sure if this is a disorder, but it is untreatable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Maybe they'll have a pill for this someday. Maybe it's genetic, and can be bred out.

it is a personality disorder, in the same group as sociopathic and borderline. of the three, only borderline responds to treatment.

it is unlikely that it will be "bred out" since narcissists are extremely adept at becoming what people most need/want for the period of time needed to get them on the hook, then using them until they're all used up, which usually involves breeding with at least one of them. most of them figure out how to fly under the radar of the law, mostly by terrorizing the people they use. I'm ashamed to say that I contributed to a narcissist passing his genetic material on, but fortunately narcissism doesn't appear to be genetically inherited.

[potato]

Do we know that vpw was not also following hype and false promises? He met with numbers of different "spiritual" people. He got much of his ideas from them. He carried a number of concepts in his mind from the word-faith movement, prosperity gospel, liberty lobby, etc. Perhaps his own behaviors and attitudes were genuine mimics of other men, much like way corps and non-way corps mimicked those they admired?

His deliberate falsehoods and deceptions would seem to indicate otherwise.

I think you're both "right", based on my own observations of narcissists. their pathological need for admiration leads them to become what people want. if vpw saw that people wanted what these other spiritual leaders offered, then he HAD TO offer something so people would want him like that. he became those people - less because he admired them than because other people did. I think this extended to the most toxic of the corps people, too. it was less genuine admiration of the bullies higher up the food chain that inspired them, and more admiration of the admiration they received.

[waysider]

The Tulsa snowstorm was a blatant lie.

Wierwille confirmed that he knew it was by later inventing a new version to cover his tracks.

[potato]

The Tulsa snowstorm was a blatant lie.

Wierwille confirmed that he knew it was by later inventing a new version to cover his tracks.

I agree with you, but I bet he could have passed a lie detector test if he was in his narcissist zone. I think he had delusions of grandeur and creating stories was no different for him than giving a factual account of what he had for breakfast.

[Bolshevik]

I agree with you, but I bet he could have passed a lie detector test if he was in his narcissist zone. I think he had delusions of grandeur and creating stories was no different for him than giving a factual account of what he had for breakfast.

what about the followers? Many believe they've been miraculously healed and experienced the great power of believing. In any fellowship the love of vpw is evident. whether it's love for him or an idea in their head he embodies, i don't know. They get a "twinkle" in their eye when they speak of him. There's that weird sometimes hippie-like, sometimes very heavy, feeling in the atmosphere, shared by everyone.

I get the feeling guys like vpw and lcm are only unique because of the position they held within the cult. twi is not simply explained by vpw, but by something the followers bring to it too.

[waysider]

I don't think the followers are a factor in the question, which was whether or not Wierwille's deceptions were deliberate.

[Bolshevik]

I don't think the followers are a factor in the question, which was whether or not Wierwille's deceptions were deliberate.

The deceptions come before or after he has a following?

[waysider]

The deceptions come before or after he has a following?

Before he had a following, it would best be described as an intent to deceive.

I believe the intent to deceive existed long before he was able to generate enough interest to amass a following.

[Bolshevik]

Before he had a following, it would best be described as an intent to deceive.

I believe the intent to deceive existed long before he was able to generate enough interest to amass a following.

I'm more convinced he was crazy and self-deluded. As he interacted with different "spiritual" people his vision of grandeur increased, like you see so often with the followers of twi, many years after he died.

He couldn't have done it alone. He had help. His stories may have changed with time like any fish story. Wouldn't the tales get taller as the following increased? The pressure of leadership may have accelerated his self-delusions? Is there reason not to believe that he was just as convinced of the stories as his followers? Was his head in touch with reality enough to fully realize what he had gotten into?

They make statues of him. He's not here to coordinate this.

Take a cow. Make it a god. Then blame the cow?

[waysider]

Was his head in touch with reality enough to fully realize what he had gotten into?

I believe the answer is "yes".

Take, for example, the way he kept revising his books to try to make the plagiarism less obvious.

That takes a conscious and deliberate effort.

It demonstrates that he was cognizant of his deception.

[now I see]

 

and more admiration of the admiration they received.

That's a greasepot gem Potato!

Concerning weirwille's deceipt, each and every time he fooled someone, got something over on someone, intimidated someone, displayed false bravado against something or someone, or displayed a hissy fit over something to back down inquiries, clear back to his childhood, his college days, his days as a pastor in van wert, to the early days of twi, to the very end, it empowered him each time he pulled it off, to the extent he got away with impregnating his secretary in van wert to where it never followed him into his next gig, and to the extent he could brazenly drive his secretary to suicide in the early days of first growth in twi.  He became a gluttonous monster in what he did to women, he grew bolder and bolder in his plagerisms.

Bullies don't back down till they get beat down, he got bolder and pushed the enveloped further as time past and as he kept getting away with it all. 

[Bolshevik]

I believe the answer is "yes".

Take, for example, the way he kept revising his books to try to make the plagiarism less obvious.

That takes a conscious and deliberate effort.

It demonstrates that he was cognizant of his deception.

there's still the problem of so many just ready to accept whatever explanation the higher-ups throw at them. even if they've never met the leadership. the followers of twi and vpw were made for each other. this is probably a new topic. does explaining joseph smith explain the history of the mormons?

[waysider]

there's still the problem of so many just ready to accept whatever explanation the higher-ups throw at them. even if they've never met the leadership. the followers of twi and vpw were made for each other. this is probably a new topic. does explaining joseph smith explain the history of the mormons?

Refer to the SNAPPING and Stockholm Syndrome threads.

Edited March 17, 2009 by waysider

[Bolshevik]

Refer to the SNAPPING and Stockholm Syndrome threads.

yeah I don't buy it.

vpw was the best at the game they all play.

[waysider]

yeah I don't buy it.

What don't you buy, Mr B.?

[Tzaia]

VPW was obviously a "victim" of a lack of checks and balances. Of course, that was by design. There was only room for willing minions, and there were a lot of them.

[rascal]

Bol it seems wants to believe that we all some how wanted to be deceived, used, and tossed out like so much trash when every last ounce of usefulness was squeezed out of us....to have to start all over again with nothing in our mid thirties, no credit history, many times alone, having estranged all of our family and friends

Yeah boy, just what I had in mind for MY life at 17.

You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder friend, you have been told repeatedly that we weren`t all in league with vpw, why we were so foolish, how young and vulnerable we were, how, manipulative and seductive the doctrine was, why we would continue to support twi, but that is contrary to what you wish to believe....ok how does your unwillingness to alter your perceptions to fit the facts now presented to you, by the people that were then present, make you any different than the wafers that you despise?

Edited March 17, 2009 by rascal

[waysider]

It may be difficult for Bol. to understand parts of this because he was born into The Way.

There was no choice for him in the matter.

Most of us, on the other hand, elected to join.

We had to be sold a bill of goods before we bought into the con.

Just a thought.

[rascal]

Maybe so, but one size does not fit all for the people involved with twi...no matter how one views it through the eyes of a child.

Most of us didn`t consciously do evil when we were involved, we didn`t try to be deliberately hurtful for gain. Most of us left when we finally saw that twi wasn`t the ministry that we believed, as I think is evidenced by the dramatic drop of membership from many tens of thousands to the less than 3000 current participants.

Tens of thousands of us who had integrity and character left when we saw what was happening, yet Bol here want`s to place us all in the same category with vpw who orchestrated the whole mess and lcm who implemented the whole hellish plan.

I said it before, I don`t mind being critisized for being young, ignorant, naieve, or even incredibly stupid. I DO have a problem with being painted with the same brush as leadership whom embraced evil practices and sought personal gain.

Criminey it reminds me of dealing with my teenagers when they are determined to be mad, no matter what the reality of the circumstances are.

Edited March 17, 2009 by rascal

[Tzaia]

We had to be sold a bill of goods before we bought into the con.

The irony is that it was something that people paid money to receive, and then went out and actively recruited others.

[Bolshevik]

Bol it seems wants to believe that we all some how wanted to be deceived, used, and tossed out like so much trash when every last ounce of usefulness was squeezed out of us....to have to start all over again with nothing in our mid thirties, no credit history, many times alone, having estranged all of our family and friends

Yeah boy, just what I had in mind for MY life at 17.

You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder friend, you have been told repeatedly that we weren`t all in league with vpw, why we were so foolish, how young and vulnerable we were, how, manipulative and seductive the doctrine was, why we would continue to support twi, but that is contrary to what you wish to believe....ok how does your unwillingness to alter your perceptions to fit the facts now presented to you, by the people that were then present, make you any different than the wafers that you despise?

what you're saying is that a half-wit like vpw was able to manipulate thousands to do his half-baked plan. Thousands left with the rest to fend for themselves.

[waysider]

what you're saying is that a half-wit like vpw was able to manipulate thousands to do his half-baked plan.

I can only speak for myself, but yes, I am saying that.

Except, I think the half-wit persona stems from the phony "aw, shucks" character he played.

In reality, I think he was more cunning and devious than he would have ever wanted anyone to know.

[Bolshevik]

I can only speak for myself, but yes, I am saying that.

Except, I think the half-wit persona stems from the phony "aw, shucks" character he played.

In reality, I think he was more cunning and devious than he would have ever wanted anyone to know.

Then there's probably thousands or millions of others like him. Even better at the game he played. Maybe they're politicians or business folks who don't even use religion. It is not a stretch of the imagination to think we are now pawns in a bigger plan than the one vpw cooked up.

That thousands still, now after decades, cling to vpw, some in twi, some in other places, says that there is nothing special about being human. They are easily herded and trained like many animals. Perhaps vpw realized he was a pawn himself and decided to take what he could.

[Bolshevik]

Maybe so, but one size does not fit all for the people involved with twi...no matter how one views it through the eyes of a child.

Most of us didn`t consciously do evil when we were involved, we didn`t try to be deliberately hurtful for gain. Most of us left when we finally saw that twi wasn`t the ministry that we believed, as I think is evidenced by the dramatic drop of membership from many tens of thousands to the less than 3000 current participants.

Tens of thousands of us who had integrity and character left when we saw what was happening, yet Bol here want`s to place us all in the same category with vpw who orchestrated the whole mess and lcm who implemented the whole hellish plan.

I said it before, I don`t mind being critisized for being young, ignorant, naieve, or even incredibly stupid. I DO have a problem with being painted with the same brush as leadership whom embraced evil practices and sought personal gain.

Criminey it reminds me of dealing with my teenagers when they are determined to be mad, no matter what the reality of the circumstances are.

don't worry rascal, the weather is warming and the wayfers will be coming around soon. I'll be asking them again why they have no idea what they are doing and yet keep doing it. Then I'll through them a biscuit. :)