I know someone rather well. Never been in TWI but sure was a victim who overcame. I happen to know this person very very well and I also knew the perp very well.
This woman was raised by a mother who was a criminal. This woman watched her mother kill a fifth child (newborn infant) in a washtub of boiling water because she didn't want another child. This woman was forcibly raped at the age of twelve because her insane mother wanted to teach her about sex. These were not isolated incidents - they were almost daily occurrences. This woman raised her 3 other siblings herself because the mother never cooked, was out prostituting her self, and had the parental instincts of a crocodile (they often eat their own young).
Once through high school this woman got out, got a job, then got a BS in library science. She then went to work part time in a drug store where she met the man who she would later marry. This man had no easy life either. He was one of those GI's left in the Philippines when MacArthur bailed. During a casual conversation she mentioned she wanted to get an MS but it was expensive. He told her he would pay for it if she used her MS to help people....
And she spent all of her life helping people. She put money aside for her 6 grandchildren for college. She spent every Saturday volunteering at a local Catholic charity - a school that was for permanently institutionalized children with sever mental "retardation" (That was the word used back then.) She took a position at a university rising to the position of "chief of technical staff" of a large library system - and constantly brought home student workers for a home cooked meal. She and her husband spent Sundays clipping out pretty pictures - he worked at a hospital for permanently institutionalized people with Down's syndrome - he would go in and try to teach them to read. The "treatment" at the time was to keep them drugged and drooling. This woman and her husband thought they had a better idea - called helping people. She adopted two students whose parents from another country disowned them.
The list could go on for a book's length. I have never heard this woman complain about her childhood or use it as an excuse for poor behavior.
This woman just turned 80 - is not Christian - has no real religious affiliations - but still volunteers at a local synagogue to help maintain their meager library. She still reads to children. She still helps out neighbors. She is 80 years old.
I happen to know the above is true because the woman is my mother and I knew her mother and also watched, as a young child, her mother do horrible things to her youngest daughters grandchildren. I was afraid every time we went to visit the youngest sister - but my mom always brought over new clothes and some home cooked food.
She has never committed a crime, never abused anyone, has always been strong but gentle.
Even if Vic was a "victim" of some sort it does not excuse his behavior especially since he always touted the ethics and behavior of Christians as somehow better than "all of the rest."
Enough ranting...for now...I hope he is spinning in his grave.
So, when he scammed and tricked the Corps, did HE know it was a scam and a trick?
If not, then we have to keep following it back. SOMEONE knew it was a scam, and SOMEONE
thought up the scam.
. . .
Couldn't a scam be started by an overzealous individual, who, in a sense, scams their own self? Did he really sit down one day and say "I'm gonna scam some people"? He got carried away, maybe?
Even if Vic was a "victim" of some sort it does not excuse his behavior especially since he always touted the ethics and behavior of Christians as somehow better than "all of the rest."
. . .
are non-corps followers of twi victims? They know what is posted here, but have given up. They're "too old to change". Perhaps vpw was like them. By the time he saw what he was doing, he was "too old to change"
So why aren't the followers, corps and non-corps, just as guilty as vpw? They walk around lying through there teeth about how PFAL works, oh wait, they're victims, I forgot.
. . .
The list could go on for a book's length. I have never heard this woman complain about her childhood or use it as an excuse for poor behavior.
This woman just turned 80 - is not Christian - has no real religious affiliations - but still volunteers at a local synagogue to help maintain their meager library. She still reads to children. She still helps out neighbors. She is 80 years old.
. . .
Empathy and caring is simple mammal behavior. So is eating other mammals.
Well Bol, most of us were just kids who for a while believed a con, who did their best to live a Godly life style, who tried to be good people. I think that at the time many of us believed with all of our hearts that it was true. Some still believe...
Wierwille was an adult, he took what he wanted through deceit... he raised people to believe that it was acceptable and to do the same.
Well Bol, most of us were just kids who for a while believed a con, who did their best to live a Godly life style, who tried to be good people. I think that at the time many of us believed with all of our hearts that it was true. Some still believe...
Wierwille was an adult, he took what he wanted through deceit... he raised people to believe that it was acceptable and to do the same.
I think there is quite a difference.
How old was wierwille when he became a minister? I thought he was young.
died in his 60s in '85. youth caravan in '42? at least his 20s
Couldn't a scam be started by an overzealous individual, who, in a sense, scams their own self? Did he really sit down one day and say "I'm gonna scam some people"? He got carried away, maybe?
I think that VPW knew that he was a socially awkward looser, who didn't like taking orders from the hierarchy of his denomination, and that he also wanted to figure out a way to cash in personally on the sexual revolution of the sixties. I DO think that he sat down to plan how to scam people. He simultaneously escaped from the oversight of his denomination and gained lots and lots of power among naiive, trusting teenagers with nubile bodies. I think that he was a very mean, very bad man. I think that he is rotting in his rotten grave, because he took advantage of people in the name of God. He was not a victim. He was the kind of devil for whom, if there is a special darkest corner of Hell, such a corner is reserved.
And that's the sugarcoated version of how I feel about that.
I feel for his family, because of the shameful way that he treated his precious wife, and because his family not only were scammed, but they are burdened with his name, and the lack of trust which is now associated with it. For instance, does anybody really care whether Grandson Victor's program out in the woods survives? People seem to generally assume that he's crooked right out of the gate, even though he may or may not be; this is his grandfather's legacy.
So. Yes, VPW set out to scam people. No, he wasn't a victim, any more than Hitler was a victim of the Holocaust. Yes, he'll burn in Hell.
RumRunner, that's one awesome mother you have there. A living treasure. Your dad's a pretty good guy, too.
As to VPW, something must have happened to predispose him to that sort of behavior. I find myself wondering about his parents and in particular his father. What were they like? Over-zealous? Too strict? Subtle or not-so-subtle put-downs? Gave him too little attention or praise when he was a young kid?
And what about his parents' parents?
Given that we all have weaknesses, and abuse in one form or another is often generational - observed behavior and felt, too, perhaps, from a young age, reinforced by years of neglect or abuse... Abused people (victims) often themselves turn into abusers. I don't know that I ever heard much talk of his parents; perhaps early WC heard him recount some tales?
But even so, that doesn't excuse his horrendous behavior later. ESPECIALLY when masquerading as a minister. At some stage it got to "conscience seared with a hot iron" - assuming he ever had much of a conscience to sear.
I think that VPW knew that he was a socially awkward looser, who didn't like taking orders from the hierarchy of his denomination, and that he also wanted to figure out a way to cash in personally on the sexual revolution of the sixties. I DO think that he sat down to plan how to scam people. He simultaneously escaped from the oversight of his denomination and gained lots and lots of power among naiive, trusting teenagers with nubile bodies. I think that he was a very mean, very bad man. I think that he is rotting in his rotten grave, because he took advantage of people in the name of God. He was not a victim. He was the kind of devil for whom, if there is a special darkest corner of Hell, such a corner is reserved.
. . .
"socially awkward looser", Hitler was rejected too, in the Nazi party he found his "calling". These two men simply do not exist anymore. There is no punishment for them.
vpw used the name of God. But did he plant the idea of a god in their mind? Just as Hitler played on the antisemitism that was already widely accepted?
We all kill to survive. These men just did it better?
Well Bol, most of us were just kids who for a while believed a con, who did their best to live a Godly life style, who tried to be good people. I think that at the time many of us believed with all of our hearts that it was true. Some still believe...
Thanks Twinky - I appreciate you using the words "living treasure" - that she is.
Funny thought don't you think? She had every excuse to be abusive (under American law) and NEVER was - hmmm if she wasn't abusive what was drunk Vic's excuse?!?!?!
RumRunner, that's one awesome mother you have there. A living treasure. Your dad's a pretty good guy, too.
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waysider
The only guy who can answer those questions is currently feeding the worms.
excathedra
pillfal has something just for you :)
potato
I think you're both "right", based on my own observations of narcissists. their pathological need for admiration leads them to become what people want. if vpw saw that people wanted what these other s
Bolshevik
whoever invented religion, ah, the Christians, its their fault
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WordWolf
When trying to figure out who was a victim of who, the first question, I think, is
"How were they victimized?"
If the statement begins "We were scammed and tricked by Corps", then we follow it back.
If we were scammed and tricked by Corps, did they know it was a scam and a trick?
If not (almost all were NOT and at least TRIED to do the right thing), then THEY were scammed and tricked.
So, who scammed and tricked the Corps?
The next step back is to VPW.
So, when he scammed and tricked the Corps, did HE know it was a scam and a trick?
If not, then we have to keep following it back. SOMEONE knew it was a scam, and SOMEONE
thought up the scam.
In the case of VPW,
he took Leonard's class, and taught it to others, telling them it was HIS class and not mentioning
Leonard to them. He took Stiles' book and retyped it, telling people it was HIS book and not
mentioning Stiles to THEM.
VPW sought out the hippies at the end of the 60s, and told them that God spoke to him over 20 years
before, and that he had special knowledge other Christians lacked. As proof, he displayed knowledge,
like the contents of Leonard's class and Stiles' book. While getting all his material from other Christians,
he kept saying other Christians lacked answers.
Meanwhile, there's no indication that people like Leonard were anything BUT trustworthy, and trusting
others because THEY could be trusted.
So, the top level of scam is where vpw was. He knew when he was making things up and
claiming it was God Almighty talking to them.
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RumRunner
A victim?!?!?! Even if so that was no excuse.
I know someone rather well. Never been in TWI but sure was a victim who overcame. I happen to know this person very very well and I also knew the perp very well.
This woman was raised by a mother who was a criminal. This woman watched her mother kill a fifth child (newborn infant) in a washtub of boiling water because she didn't want another child. This woman was forcibly raped at the age of twelve because her insane mother wanted to teach her about sex. These were not isolated incidents - they were almost daily occurrences. This woman raised her 3 other siblings herself because the mother never cooked, was out prostituting her self, and had the parental instincts of a crocodile (they often eat their own young).
Once through high school this woman got out, got a job, then got a BS in library science. She then went to work part time in a drug store where she met the man who she would later marry. This man had no easy life either. He was one of those GI's left in the Philippines when MacArthur bailed. During a casual conversation she mentioned she wanted to get an MS but it was expensive. He told her he would pay for it if she used her MS to help people....
And she spent all of her life helping people. She put money aside for her 6 grandchildren for college. She spent every Saturday volunteering at a local Catholic charity - a school that was for permanently institutionalized children with sever mental "retardation" (That was the word used back then.) She took a position at a university rising to the position of "chief of technical staff" of a large library system - and constantly brought home student workers for a home cooked meal. She and her husband spent Sundays clipping out pretty pictures - he worked at a hospital for permanently institutionalized people with Down's syndrome - he would go in and try to teach them to read. The "treatment" at the time was to keep them drugged and drooling. This woman and her husband thought they had a better idea - called helping people. She adopted two students whose parents from another country disowned them.
The list could go on for a book's length. I have never heard this woman complain about her childhood or use it as an excuse for poor behavior.
This woman just turned 80 - is not Christian - has no real religious affiliations - but still volunteers at a local synagogue to help maintain their meager library. She still reads to children. She still helps out neighbors. She is 80 years old.
I happen to know the above is true because the woman is my mother and I knew her mother and also watched, as a young child, her mother do horrible things to her youngest daughters grandchildren. I was afraid every time we went to visit the youngest sister - but my mom always brought over new clothes and some home cooked food.
She has never committed a crime, never abused anyone, has always been strong but gentle.
Even if Vic was a "victim" of some sort it does not excuse his behavior especially since he always touted the ethics and behavior of Christians as somehow better than "all of the rest."
Enough ranting...for now...I hope he is spinning in his grave.
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Bolshevik
Couldn't a scam be started by an overzealous individual, who, in a sense, scams their own self? Did he really sit down one day and say "I'm gonna scam some people"? He got carried away, maybe?
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Bolshevik
are non-corps followers of twi victims? They know what is posted here, but have given up. They're "too old to change". Perhaps vpw was like them. By the time he saw what he was doing, he was "too old to change"
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rascal
Thank you Rumrunner.
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Bolshevik
So why aren't the followers, corps and non-corps, just as guilty as vpw? They walk around lying through there teeth about how PFAL works, oh wait, they're victims, I forgot.
Empathy and caring is simple mammal behavior. So is eating other mammals.
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mstar1
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rascal
Well Bol, most of us were just kids who for a while believed a con, who did their best to live a Godly life style, who tried to be good people. I think that at the time many of us believed with all of our hearts that it was true. Some still believe...
Wierwille was an adult, he took what he wanted through deceit... he raised people to believe that it was acceptable and to do the same.
I think there is quite a difference.
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Bolshevik
Where did you get the idea you wanted to live a "Godly lifestyle"? You mean metaphorically?
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Bolshevik
How old was wierwille when he became a minister? I thought he was young.
died in his 60s in '85. youth caravan in '42? at least his 20s
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notinKansasanymore
I think that VPW knew that he was a socially awkward looser, who didn't like taking orders from the hierarchy of his denomination, and that he also wanted to figure out a way to cash in personally on the sexual revolution of the sixties. I DO think that he sat down to plan how to scam people. He simultaneously escaped from the oversight of his denomination and gained lots and lots of power among naiive, trusting teenagers with nubile bodies. I think that he was a very mean, very bad man. I think that he is rotting in his rotten grave, because he took advantage of people in the name of God. He was not a victim. He was the kind of devil for whom, if there is a special darkest corner of Hell, such a corner is reserved.
And that's the sugarcoated version of how I feel about that.
I feel for his family, because of the shameful way that he treated his precious wife, and because his family not only were scammed, but they are burdened with his name, and the lack of trust which is now associated with it. For instance, does anybody really care whether Grandson Victor's program out in the woods survives? People seem to generally assume that he's crooked right out of the gate, even though he may or may not be; this is his grandfather's legacy.
So. Yes, VPW set out to scam people. No, he wasn't a victim, any more than Hitler was a victim of the Holocaust. Yes, he'll burn in Hell.
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Twinky
RumRunner, that's one awesome mother you have there. A living treasure. Your dad's a pretty good guy, too.
As to VPW, something must have happened to predispose him to that sort of behavior. I find myself wondering about his parents and in particular his father. What were they like? Over-zealous? Too strict? Subtle or not-so-subtle put-downs? Gave him too little attention or praise when he was a young kid?
And what about his parents' parents?
Given that we all have weaknesses, and abuse in one form or another is often generational - observed behavior and felt, too, perhaps, from a young age, reinforced by years of neglect or abuse... Abused people (victims) often themselves turn into abusers. I don't know that I ever heard much talk of his parents; perhaps early WC heard him recount some tales?
But even so, that doesn't excuse his horrendous behavior later. ESPECIALLY when masquerading as a minister. At some stage it got to "conscience seared with a hot iron" - assuming he ever had much of a conscience to sear.
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Bolshevik
"socially awkward looser", Hitler was rejected too, in the Nazi party he found his "calling". These two men simply do not exist anymore. There is no punishment for them.
vpw used the name of God. But did he plant the idea of a god in their mind? Just as Hitler played on the antisemitism that was already widely accepted?
We all kill to survive. These men just did it better?
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Bolshevik
So is this true for all religions?
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RumRunner
Will do mstar1 - thanks.
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excathedra
logging in to weep and thank rumrunner
i'm with you -- being a victim is never ever an excuse for victimizing
so VICtim VICtimizer good ol VIC ppppfffffftttttttt
--
waysider, my friend, i have wondered and asked this question myself before
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RumRunner
Thanks Twinky - I appreciate you using the words "living treasure" - that she is.
Funny thought don't you think? She had every excuse to be abusive (under American law) and NEVER was - hmmm if she wasn't abusive what was drunk Vic's excuse?!?!?!
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notinKansasanymore
I don't think we can speak for all religions. I do think that we can speak for this one cult in Ohio.
I certainly would not presume to know much about the true nature of God based on anything that ever came out of Wierwille's mouth.
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now I see
If you are abused by another, you can become like the abuser or decide to become a healer, the choice is one's own. Â
God bless your Mom and Dad Rumrunner, they made the right choices...
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now I see
To get some insight into vpee's childhood Don'tWorry posted  CLICK HERE .
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RumRunner
Well stated and thank you Now I See
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Bolshevik
sure, one can make choices.
but you were unaware you were duped? many promoted vpw's ideas apparently as victims themselves
what are you not aware of now?
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WordWolf
It seems like you're going somewhere with this- that you're looking for a SPECIFIC answer.
How about letting the rest of us know what's on your mind?
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