It is a "Kingdom Ready" and "Hebraic Roots" type organization now, but still cut from the same cult cloth as TWI. . . IMHO.
It is so interesting that both ex-TWI and ex-COG are attracted to this theology. Still on the outside of the church trying to "Fix" it and . . . still thinking they are living 1st century style.
In many ways it seems to be an extreme backlash reaction to the ultra-dispensationalism of TWI theology. Maybe that is what attracts ex-twi to it?
Vince has just set up a new kingdom . . . but he is still dwelling in the kingdom of cults.
And lots of churches have "Family Camps" and even the Boy Scouts have "Campfires." Even "Devotion with Motion" was something TWI got from Camps Farthest Out, I believe, on which their Family Camps were based. There may be some similarity to TWI in terminology, which is just a helpful way of relating to people who are largely ex-TWI, but that doesn't mean the whole organization is the same. There are a great many differences in attitude as well as doctrine.
There is more to the differences than just "several doctrines." The whole foundation of their doctrine is different. While TWI was founded on the supposed revelation to one man of God, Vince makes no such claim. And the whole focus of TWI's doctrine was on "operating power" to have what they considered a "more abundant life." In contrast, Living Hope teaches that the gospel of the coming Kingdom of God ruled by Jesus on earth is central. This foundation puts a different spin on many other things that TWI had wrong, not least of which is TWI's dispensational system of Bible interpretation. Really, about the only thing that Living Hope has in common with TWI now (other than basics like "there is a God" and "the Bible is divinely inspired") is the rejection of the Trinity and the belief that the dead are unconscious.
As for the financial base being a core of faithful followers, that is true of nearly any independent, non-denominational church. A few top contributors provide the greatest percentage of gifts. But he does not hold the kind of control over members and small home fellowships that VPW did. There is none of the focus on him as a "man of God" as there was in TWI, nor is there any reference to VPW as a "past man of God" as there is in many other TWI offshoots.
The closest he comes is when he says in his introduction on his website, "I will always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry without which I don’t think I would have lived to see thirty." I think this can be said of many of us. Despite what VPW turned out to be, the effect of God's Word on the lives of many troubled youths in those days literally saved their lives. But I know from personal conversations with Vince that he does not consider VPW to be the "Man of God" we once thought he was. But to go about enumerating VP's faults on his website would serve no purpose. Yet he goes on to say, "The downward spiral could be attributed to many things, with perhaps the most significant being wrong or incomplete doctrine, unqualified and immature leadership, and sinfulness. As a prominent leader in the ministry, I consider myself to have been a part of the problem and deeply regret the many things I did wrong."
Far from being another "Man of God," there are a number of other teachers at Living Hope besides Vince, and they are not required to agree with what he teaches, as was the case in TWI. There isn't the emphasis on classes and money that TWI had either. Many of them are taught by others besides Vince. His newsletter is free. And rather than focusing the whole ministry on "running classes," some of them are available to buy as tape sets, and others are free online.
DWBH said:
"...all he's done, imho, is to effectively remove himself from the filthy legacy of the average twi offshoot..." I'd say that in itself is a good thing.
"...and hitch his star to a different denonimination associated with atlanta bible college..." That is something TWI would never have done. They were always pushing the attitude of "we have the answers and everybody else is wrong." There is a lot more to the Church of God (Abrahamic Faith) than just their small college. The doctrines they teach go back to the 1800's, and rather than rejecting it out of hand because it disagrees with his doctrine (as many other offshoots have done) Vince and the others in his church looked into it and found it to be doctrinally sound.
"...and maximize his former twi contacts to gain attention as some kind of church building "hero" within a segment of christianity that accepts his denial or rejection of his theological roots in exchange for financial and numerical increase." While he has a lot of contacts from TWI, not all of them have accepted his "new" doctrines, and none of them have accepted or rejected them on the basis of any financial or numerical increase. Those that accept them do so because they can see it for themselves in the Bible. Those that do not see it and prefer to hold to TWI dogma don't accept him or the doctrines. And there are even some in the same state who agree with the same doctrines but still maintain very TWI-like attitudes of "we have the truth and nobody else does" and "we must separate from those who disagree with us." Vince has rejected this kind of attitude, and maintains open communication with others from whom he is willing to learn.
As for going back and getting "proper training," Vince's church began as an offshoot of TWI, and later evolved into something very different when it began to accept the teachings about the Kingdom of God. By that point it would not have been practical to say, "You guys are on your own; I'm taking four years off to get a degree." You have to work with a group where they (and you) are at. However, there are others in his church that are getting or have gotten degrees, including his son who is the associate pastor. And others are teaching and/or contributing in various ways. There is not, as I said, an emphasis on Vince as "The Man of God." The emphasis is on the Bible and its message.
I am not a direct member of Vince's church, as I live on the opposite side of the country. I don't even agree with everything he teaches. But I do know that he has endured personal hardship and loss of fellowship for having the courage to embrace the doctrines that he has embraced. I don't know what went on between Vince and DWBH any more than DWBH knows what has gone on between Vince and other individuals. But to judge any person or group based on stuff that happened 20 or 30 years ago without knowing what's going on now seems unfair. And especially so when the "particular concern" is over who he aligned himself with way back then, even though he no longer aligns himself with Geer, Lynn, TWI, or anyone else with whom many of us mistakenly aligned ourselves at the time. But as DWBH said..... it's a free country.
By that point it would not have been practical to say, "You guys are on your own; I'm taking four years off to get a degree." You have to work with a group where they (and you) are at.
. There is not, as I said, an emphasis on Vince as "The Man of God."
<_<
I dont understand your reasoning.
No one could survive without him, yet there is no emphasis on him at all?
That doesnt sound congruous to me.
Where is this God that he preaches if they would suddenly be on their own? are they really that dependant on HIM?
Pastors move on from churches and different groups to continue their education all the time without devastating effects ( apparently God still cares for those people apart from the resident pastor).
Is he somehow still 'replacing the absent christ" as Wierwille did? or are people really that dependant on him that they cannot function without him to lead them? (or he cant function without them to listen to him perhaps?)
I really dont care all that much, but it doesnt sound healthy to me
I don't think Vince ever portrayed himself as a Christ-like or Messiah-like figure, and neither did VPW for that matter. The folks feel comfortable with and stand with Vince. They are entitled.. this is America. I wish them well ... and see no problem with their association other than their new doctrine on salvation. :unsure:
No one could survive without him, yet there is no emphasis on him at all?
That doesnt sound congruous to me.
Where is this God that he preaches if they would suddenly be on their own? are they really that dependant on HIM?
Pastors move on from churches and different groups to continue their education all the time without devastating effects ( apparently God still cares for those people apart from the resident pastor).
Is he somehow still 'replacing the absent christ" as Wierwille did? or are people really that dependant on him that they cannot function without him to lead them? (or he cant function without them to listen to him perhaps?)
I really dont care all that much, but it doesnt sound healthy to me
Nobody said they couldn't survive without him, but there is a particular function that a pastor has in any church. As he put it in his introduction, he "continued to work with those in the ministry who wanted my involvement." He never said anything about "replacing the absent Christ" (and Oldiesman is right that VP never did either). But he also didn't claim to have gotten special understanding or revelation from God as VP did, nor has he ever implied that he has all the answers and no one in the church can disagree with him. He functions as a pastor but not as "THE Man of God for our day and time" or any such exclusive title.
"Pastors move on from churches and different groups to continue their education" when there is an organization already in place. But we are talking about a bunch of ex-Way people trying to do their best with what they had, and figure out what worked and what didn't in the Way's structure, since that was what they knew. Not to mention getting used to new doctrines (new to them, that is) which they had to search the Scriptures about, to see if they were right. All of this was a gradual growth process. In its early days its methods and structure may have resembled TWI more, but it has continued to grow and change since then, with the result that the organization that now exists bears very little resemblance to TWI from which it sprang. Is it perfect? Of course not. But is it just a copy of the Way? I don't think so.
By that point it would not have been practical to say, "You guys are on your own; I'm taking four years off to get a degree." You have to work with a group where they (and you) are at.
maybe that's the whole point..
now I imagine some people's exposure to greek, aramaic, figures of speech, counselling(?), among other subjects, was first in the corps. Now probably not.. but it seems to me that a two year "miracle program" is hardly the place to get grounded in any one of these areas.
So they give a "miracle" two to six week course and have the students read competent to counsel..
and some emerged from the training.. and I would assert, have not developed themselves beyond knowing just enough to cause real problems..
my experience, if I got any real *help* from some of these novices, it was only due to "dumb luck", not much unlike the unlikely proposition of hitting the lottery..
Don't they OWE their "congregation" the expense and effort to actually develop themselves, along professional lines?
I mean.. it's their BUSINESS, isn't it?
Instead.. I see the same old thing, offshoot after offshoot... they are rehashing the old foundational class.. around and around in circles they go.. with slight variations on the theme..
Mr.Ham,you said if you got any help at all it was like hitting the lottery,pure dumb luck.Well my own two bit world you did not even ask for help,as you would be considered 'weak'And bring down the almighty household.
Instead.. I see the same old thing, offshoot after offshoot... they are rehashing the old foundational class.. around and around in circles they go.. with slight variations on the theme..
"Slight" variations? Have you been reading what I posted?
It looks pretty much the same to me, they cross a few t's and dot a few i's differently ---but it looks like Classes, advances, fellowships, --tape subscriptions, book store, 'special' get togethers--a magazine--they even have "international' in their name, do they have phone hookups?
Yes they may read a few things slightly differently, but its pretty much the same thing, its not like they are deciding to start an orphanage, or fight world hunger or any of the umpteen million other things that various christian groups do to make the world a more just and livable place
Its still looks like 'research',( <_< ) teaching and fellowship and the same amenities as before..
There aren't many churches that DON'T have classes, advances (except they call them retreats), home fellowships, tapes of services, a book store, 'special' get togethers, and a magazine or newsletter of some kind. Saying that makes them the same as TWI except for a few minor points like THE ENTIRE MESSAGE THEY ARE PROMOTING is like saying, "They have a building, and people come to it and talk about God and the Bible, so there's no difference between them and the Roman Catholic Church."
There were no "chuch politics" and why There were no "underhanded machinations" so
There were no "divisions" and why There were no "denominations"
among those who followed Jesus Christ.
But all of that stopped when someone decided he was: "The Leader!"
Actually, if you read the NT closely, you will find all these things.
The centralized body of leadership was the 12 apostles. The key Bible word is "oversight," based on the Greek word episkopos, which when slightly mangled in English is "bishop." When Phillip did the odd thing of evangelizing Samaritans, Peter and John went to oversee it. When Greeks came to faith at Antioch (an unheard of event), the central body of oversight (apostles) sent Barnabas to check things out. When a conflict arose between Paul who taught Grace and Judaizers who demanded that Greek converts be circumcised, they went to the governing body of apostles at Jerusalem to resolve the matter.
There were also divisions. In 1 Corinthians some say "I follow Paul," others, "I follow Appollos," others "I follow Peter." Paul tried to unite them under Christ. But others went off to form their own groups. John said "they went out from us because they were not of us," and Paul warned elders in Ephesus that some would leave to draw away disciples aftyer themselves (as VPW did).
There were also church politics. The Greek widows complained that the Hebrew widows were treated better than them (Acts 6) so the apostles (the governing body) designated (ordained) seven men to settle the matter.
The oversight of the apostles continued in the overseers ("bishops") they ordained, because the Church needs some eladers to oversee things. The Jerusalem council was continued by many church councils from the first century until now. The first century church had the same struggles Christians do now, and set up oversight and council models to be contnued as a means to solve problems that arise.
Denominations in the positive sense are churches who band together to do things that individual chruches or Christians cannot do by themselves. For instance, Titus and Timothy oversaw the network of churches Paul planted (Bishops by various names serve the same function of oversight over networks of churches today), and several of them together supported Paul's mission much as denominations organize churches to support missionaries today.
Oversight bodies (like bishops) and denominations are often criticized today, but part of the function they serve is based on healthy Biblical models.
It's my personal opinion that many of the problems that festered in The Way were not due to our approach to the Trinity or our view on how many were crucified with Christ or what day Jesus was actually born on or what Jesus actually said when he was on the cross, or any of the other "Bible stuff". The exception to this, I believe, was the the dispensationalism that permeated and was intertwined with everything we did on a practical level. In other words, the problems were rooted in the lifestyle we were living. The Bible was somewhat incidental to it. Many people who were not in the various training programs or had minimal exposure to them or had a unique experience in them, simply don't grasp the profound effect that isolationism and constant denial of "self" can have. I don't expect them to. But, on the other hand, I don't expect them to persistently discount the real experiences of people who were directly affected. With that said, the heart of my questions is not with what any particular group teaches about the scriptures, per-se, but rather what sort of lifestyle they promote. I know very little about this group and am certainly not implying there is anything amiss here. However, I am always on my guard to examine any similarities in lifestyle that various groups may have with TWI.
I'm willing to bet that my former twig coordinators have virtually the same practical lifestyle as they did in twi. i.e., they hold fellowship meetings once a week. The other days of the week, they live their own lives, what they choose to do. They go to special classes once in a while, ones they choose and have committed themselves to. They may witness more, who knows? I don't know what differences there would be from twi on a practical level, i.e., they are Mr. & Mrs. American who love God and run a fellowship once a week.
There aren't many churches that DON'T have classes, advances (except they call them retreats), home fellowships, tapes of services, a book store, 'special' get togethers, and a magazine or newsletter of some kind. Saying that makes them the same as TWI except for a few minor points like THE ENTIRE MESSAGE THEY ARE PROMOTING is like saying, "They have a building, and people come to it and talk about God and the Bible, so there's no difference between them and the Roman Catholic Church."
I'd soften it a little.. and say there is LITTLE difference between *them* and the Roman Catholic Church..
they have perhaps a lot of different dressing in the windows.. but they all seem to agree on the Apostle's Creed.. on core values they tend to agree.
but from what I've observed.. there is more oversight in the Roman Catholic Church than almost EVERY twi offshoot I've had the "pleasure" to have encountered.
like the new sowers thingy.. they appear to me to be only answerable to their own overaged egotistical pudgy selves.. I asked nicely the first time if this was indeed the case..
I dunno.. it's just the mentality.. "if we build it, *they* (like zombies) will come.."
the sad fact is, that, outside of several doctrines, and different word-ology, vinnie has'nt, imho, changed anything.......his financial base has always been and remains today, a core of stalwart ex-twi followers who remain entrenched in vinnie's style of "ministry"......he has parlayed to the max all his twi training and ties to "money-launder" his church into an acceptable "kingdom-ready" version of vic's way of doing things, minus the personal perversions vinnie once accepted as truth...........it's a free country, and vinnie's not doing anything illegal as far as i know.......but, as far as "self-improvement" goes, all he's done, imho, is to effectively remove himself from the filthy legacy of the average twi offshoot, and hitch his star to a different denonimination associated with atlanta bible college, and maximize his former twi contacts to gain attention as some kind of church building "hero" within a segment of christianity that accepts his denial or rejection of his theological roots in exchange for financial and numerical increase..........like i said.......free country.
vinnie must live as a prisoner of his own conscience.........how he does it, i do not know.........but, i'm sure the "foregiveness of god" is a big personal agenda item of which vinnie, without apologizing to the hundreds of genuine christians he used and abused in the past, makes full theological and practical use...........i'll accept his "conversion" as real when i get a phone call from him with some kind of attempt on his part for settlement of his immoral and unjust past in regards to his personal dealings with me, and others i know whom he personally mistreated.......his alliance with geer in his early years of ex-twi living are of particular concern to me..........as i said, it's a free country........vinnie's true conscience will be his guide.......i'll let you know when his conscience moves him to clear itself with his past dealings with me................don't hold your breath!...............peace.
A long overdue Hiya back at you DWBH,
After my year plus at the Greasespot I have no trouble believing what you have experienced with Vince, DWBH. And while I am in no way saying this at you because I doubt you, I feel that this must be said.....
I remember all the bad things TWI leadership did to everybody by just one little unsubstantiated put down to turn everyone else away from the object of the put down. Looking back, it almost seems like leadership could turn us away from any good person with but one little such saying.
So while I've read to much to doubt you at this time DWBH I have a request. Is there any way possible that you could spell out some of your experiences with Vince so that the rest of us who only know him as one of the good guys according to TWI propoganda may have something more substantial to go on?
I have a strong preference for credible testimonies to counter religious madmen anyway..... :B)
hi jeff!........i appreciate your gracious grant of credence to what i have posted here at greasespot during the past couple of years.........i have always appreciated your forthrightness, as well as your posts regarding your horrid personal, firsthand experiences with whatever 14th corps maniac who "leads" the offshoot that terrorized and viciously disrupted your personal life........an unfortunately "typical" example of religious hypocrisy and narcissistic hedonism, shamelessly perpetuated in the name of god and "rightly-dividing god's perfect, matchless word"!
if i chose to, i could list and delineate numerous specific acts of many former twi "leaders" who now run lucrative "churches" of their own, who, during their "reigns" as twi "bigshots", committed numerous illicit and immoral acts of mental terrorism and literal physical abuse of folks who were haplessly seeking"spiritual growth" during their time of twi involvement. however, since the span of time is now some 20-30 years after the fact, and, my contact with the numerous victims is no longer current, there is, imho, no real benefit to either party of doing so.....unless the parties themselves agree to engage in a therapeutic discussion of said events for mutual, beneficial, resolution of long-standing and profound psychosocial issues.
vinnie himself, i would think, should be quite poignantly aware of what he's done to and with whom......however, to be honest,........the firsthand knowledge of his acts that i have is no more current than 1989......thats 20 years ago!.....wow!.....hard to believe!..........that's one of the reasons i say that when and if vinnie ever contacts me to personally "own up" to the vicious horrors and collusions he participated in against me personally back then with the likes of geer, et al, i'll be sure to let all know here at greaespot that he's finally apologized to those to whom his personal apologies are 20+ years "overdue"!!........as i've said before, "don't hold your breath!
i know for a fact, that today, as i type this, there are some "offshoots" of vinnie's offshoot that are run by people whom he, vinnie, engaged in extra-marital sex with........i doubt either vinnie, or his partners will ever "fess-up" to this, nor do i expect that they should do so in a public forum.........however, privately, such admissions of what i know to be fact, would go a long way to resolving the "issues" i have with vinnie and his "new" church. the same is true for a number of vic/pfal "torchbearers" running around espousing and promoting their "ministries" just like ted haggard did before he got "busted"!.........only difference being, they haven't been "busted.............yet.
my "goal" is not to publicly expose or bust these folks.........i just seek their personal, private admission to the facts, along with a public act of "contrition" in which they acknowledge their personal acceptance of the fact that vic was a filthy, lying, sexual pervert, predator and alcoholic, as well as a bible liar and spritual charlatan........not just some smarmy, rote expression of their everlasting thankfulness for the part of his "ministry" that "kept them alive" past 30 years of age, to develope their own personal brand of religion to keep their families fed, and their "congregations" sending in the money!
i have discussed vinnie's "new" church here at greasespot with mark clarke before.........i do not wish to re-engage in a discussion of cog, "abrahamic faith", "kingdom ready" theology with him again.......he has a right to his religious beliefs, as do all amercian citizens..........but, his promotion of vinnie's church as a somehow "different", or "unique", or "doctrinally" more "mature" offshoot than cff, stfi, or the rest, holds absolutely no water with me.........one man's cult is another man's orthodoxy.......nor do i desire to engage in mudslinging 20 years after the fact!...........however........i know what i know, and folks like vinnie, geer, jalvis, schoenheit, seed, clapp, guigou, etc., etc., etc., know what i know too.............it'll all come out in the wash.........it always does.........i know also, that my conscience is clean and clear......i have paid a very high price for determining to remain honest and "unbought"..........the others i've mentioned, and many more unmentioned, have received alot of bucks for their denial, unrepentant silence, and decisions to sell themselves to whatever brand of so-called "christian" religion that pays their personal bills!
i'm not setting myself up as a self-righteous martyr, nor do i even assume that the facts i may share have any importance or value to very many people.........however, i live with myself knowing that i'm no liar, pimp or whore when it comes to what i experienced in twi..........sometimes i do feel like hitchcock's "the man who knew too much", .......but, really.......not many care.........it's just another story in "the naked city" of religion and religious cults!................peace.
I find it amazing that you would claim you don't "desire to engage in mudslinging 20 years after the fact" after having just "slung" a significant amount of mud in the previous two paragraphs. What was the purpose of making such statements if you refuse to even accept that things could be different, let alone find out whether they are different?
First of all, since you admit that the firsthand knowledge of his acts that you have is no more current than 1989, I have to assume that the extramarital sex you refer to was before that. So truthfully then, you don't really know if "Vinnie" or his "partners" have "fessed up" or resolved anything since then, especially since, as you say, you wouldn't expect them to do so in a public forum.
Second, you say you don't wish to discuss his theology again, but you accuse him of developing "his own personal brand of religion" to keep his family fed, and his "congregation" sending in the money. But you have no idea what happened to change his doctrinal views. I can assure you it had nothing to do with feeding his family or getting money from his congregation. In fact it began in the late 1990s, with the biggest changes after 2000. Besides, if he wanted to make up a doctrine just to keep people happy, he would not have chosen such controversial ones.
And speaking of his doctrinal views, you and several others still claim it's only slightly different from TWI, and lump it in with CFF and STFI. But as has been discussed at length here at GreaseSpot, much of the root of the problems in TWI were based in wrong doctrine, leading to sinful actions. Specifically the misguided "grace" idea, whereby we were taught that as long as we confessed Romans 10:9, we were saved, "heaven bound and all hell couldn't stop us" no matter what we did afterward. This was the rationalization behind much of the crap that happened in the old ministry, and still does in many of the offshoots. Far from holding to that idea, Living Hope, and Vince specifically, believes and teaches that our actions are indeed relevant, and are an indication of the faith we claim to have. So much so that if one continues to habitually practice sin unrepentantly, he will not inherit the kingdom. This point, especially, has caused many other TWI offshoots to question the validity of his doctrines.
Now I don't want to get into a debate about the doctrine here. My point is that the people who keep saying they don't see much difference between Vince's doctrine and TWI's aren't understanding what he is teaching. And what he is teaching has been making changes in the lives of many people in his area, when they realize that this period of preparation for the Kingdom has its purpose, and it is not to "live a more abundant life and operate all nine all the time." It's one thing if people disagree with his doctrines (that can be handled in the Doctrinal Forum), but it's quite another to keep saying that what he is teaching is only slightly different from TWI, when that is certainly not the case.
I don't wish to argue about who's church or offshoot is better. What I do want is for people to have their facts CURRENT before making a judgment on someone. That's only fair.
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Tzaia
So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?
Ham
I need at least.. three to five more lifetimes to learn what I need to learn.. I don't know if it's "available"..
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geisha779
It is a "Kingdom Ready" and "Hebraic Roots" type organization now, but still cut from the same cult cloth as TWI. . . IMHO.
It is so interesting that both ex-TWI and ex-COG are attracted to this theology. Still on the outside of the church trying to "Fix" it and . . . still thinking they are living 1st century style.
In many ways it seems to be an extreme backlash reaction to the ultra-dispensationalism of TWI theology. Maybe that is what attracts ex-twi to it?
Vince has just set up a new kingdom . . . but he is still dwelling in the kingdom of cults.
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Mark Clarke
Full Gospel Businessmen Fellowship has a "men's advance" -
http://www.fgbmfi-ga.com/Site/Home/Home.html
And lots of churches have "Family Camps" and even the Boy Scouts have "Campfires." Even "Devotion with Motion" was something TWI got from Camps Farthest Out, I believe, on which their Family Camps were based. There may be some similarity to TWI in terminology, which is just a helpful way of relating to people who are largely ex-TWI, but that doesn't mean the whole organization is the same. There are a great many differences in attitude as well as doctrine.
There is more to the differences than just "several doctrines." The whole foundation of their doctrine is different. While TWI was founded on the supposed revelation to one man of God, Vince makes no such claim. And the whole focus of TWI's doctrine was on "operating power" to have what they considered a "more abundant life." In contrast, Living Hope teaches that the gospel of the coming Kingdom of God ruled by Jesus on earth is central. This foundation puts a different spin on many other things that TWI had wrong, not least of which is TWI's dispensational system of Bible interpretation. Really, about the only thing that Living Hope has in common with TWI now (other than basics like "there is a God" and "the Bible is divinely inspired") is the rejection of the Trinity and the belief that the dead are unconscious.
As for the financial base being a core of faithful followers, that is true of nearly any independent, non-denominational church. A few top contributors provide the greatest percentage of gifts. But he does not hold the kind of control over members and small home fellowships that VPW did. There is none of the focus on him as a "man of God" as there was in TWI, nor is there any reference to VPW as a "past man of God" as there is in many other TWI offshoots.
The closest he comes is when he says in his introduction on his website, "I will always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry without which I don’t think I would have lived to see thirty." I think this can be said of many of us. Despite what VPW turned out to be, the effect of God's Word on the lives of many troubled youths in those days literally saved their lives. But I know from personal conversations with Vince that he does not consider VPW to be the "Man of God" we once thought he was. But to go about enumerating VP's faults on his website would serve no purpose. Yet he goes on to say, "The downward spiral could be attributed to many things, with perhaps the most significant being wrong or incomplete doctrine, unqualified and immature leadership, and sinfulness. As a prominent leader in the ministry, I consider myself to have been a part of the problem and deeply regret the many things I did wrong."
Far from being another "Man of God," there are a number of other teachers at Living Hope besides Vince, and they are not required to agree with what he teaches, as was the case in TWI. There isn't the emphasis on classes and money that TWI had either. Many of them are taught by others besides Vince. His newsletter is free. And rather than focusing the whole ministry on "running classes," some of them are available to buy as tape sets, and others are free online.
DWBH said:
"...all he's done, imho, is to effectively remove himself from the filthy legacy of the average twi offshoot..." I'd say that in itself is a good thing.
"...and hitch his star to a different denonimination associated with atlanta bible college..." That is something TWI would never have done. They were always pushing the attitude of "we have the answers and everybody else is wrong." There is a lot more to the Church of God (Abrahamic Faith) than just their small college. The doctrines they teach go back to the 1800's, and rather than rejecting it out of hand because it disagrees with his doctrine (as many other offshoots have done) Vince and the others in his church looked into it and found it to be doctrinally sound.
"...and maximize his former twi contacts to gain attention as some kind of church building "hero" within a segment of christianity that accepts his denial or rejection of his theological roots in exchange for financial and numerical increase." While he has a lot of contacts from TWI, not all of them have accepted his "new" doctrines, and none of them have accepted or rejected them on the basis of any financial or numerical increase. Those that accept them do so because they can see it for themselves in the Bible. Those that do not see it and prefer to hold to TWI dogma don't accept him or the doctrines. And there are even some in the same state who agree with the same doctrines but still maintain very TWI-like attitudes of "we have the truth and nobody else does" and "we must separate from those who disagree with us." Vince has rejected this kind of attitude, and maintains open communication with others from whom he is willing to learn.
As for going back and getting "proper training," Vince's church began as an offshoot of TWI, and later evolved into something very different when it began to accept the teachings about the Kingdom of God. By that point it would not have been practical to say, "You guys are on your own; I'm taking four years off to get a degree." You have to work with a group where they (and you) are at. However, there are others in his church that are getting or have gotten degrees, including his son who is the associate pastor. And others are teaching and/or contributing in various ways. There is not, as I said, an emphasis on Vince as "The Man of God." The emphasis is on the Bible and its message.
I am not a direct member of Vince's church, as I live on the opposite side of the country. I don't even agree with everything he teaches. But I do know that he has endured personal hardship and loss of fellowship for having the courage to embrace the doctrines that he has embraced. I don't know what went on between Vince and DWBH any more than DWBH knows what has gone on between Vince and other individuals. But to judge any person or group based on stuff that happened 20 or 30 years ago without knowing what's going on now seems unfair. And especially so when the "particular concern" is over who he aligned himself with way back then, even though he no longer aligns himself with Geer, Lynn, TWI, or anyone else with whom many of us mistakenly aligned ourselves at the time. But as DWBH said..... it's a free country.
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mstar1
<_<
I dont understand your reasoning.
No one could survive without him, yet there is no emphasis on him at all?
That doesnt sound congruous to me.
Where is this God that he preaches if they would suddenly be on their own? are they really that dependant on HIM?
Pastors move on from churches and different groups to continue their education all the time without devastating effects ( apparently God still cares for those people apart from the resident pastor).
Is he somehow still 'replacing the absent christ" as Wierwille did? or are people really that dependant on him that they cannot function without him to lead them? (or he cant function without them to listen to him perhaps?)
I really dont care all that much, but it doesnt sound healthy to me
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oldiesman
I don't think Vince ever portrayed himself as a Christ-like or Messiah-like figure, and neither did VPW for that matter. The folks feel comfortable with and stand with Vince. They are entitled.. this is America. I wish them well ... and see no problem with their association other than their new doctrine on salvation. :unsure:
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Mark Clarke
Nobody said they couldn't survive without him, but there is a particular function that a pastor has in any church. As he put it in his introduction, he "continued to work with those in the ministry who wanted my involvement." He never said anything about "replacing the absent Christ" (and Oldiesman is right that VP never did either). But he also didn't claim to have gotten special understanding or revelation from God as VP did, nor has he ever implied that he has all the answers and no one in the church can disagree with him. He functions as a pastor but not as "THE Man of God for our day and time" or any such exclusive title.
"Pastors move on from churches and different groups to continue their education" when there is an organization already in place. But we are talking about a bunch of ex-Way people trying to do their best with what they had, and figure out what worked and what didn't in the Way's structure, since that was what they knew. Not to mention getting used to new doctrines (new to them, that is) which they had to search the Scriptures about, to see if they were right. All of this was a gradual growth process. In its early days its methods and structure may have resembled TWI more, but it has continued to grow and change since then, with the result that the organization that now exists bears very little resemblance to TWI from which it sprang. Is it perfect? Of course not. But is it just a copy of the Way? I don't think so.
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Ham
maybe that's the whole point..
now I imagine some people's exposure to greek, aramaic, figures of speech, counselling(?), among other subjects, was first in the corps. Now probably not.. but it seems to me that a two year "miracle program" is hardly the place to get grounded in any one of these areas.
So they give a "miracle" two to six week course and have the students read competent to counsel..
and some emerged from the training.. and I would assert, have not developed themselves beyond knowing just enough to cause real problems..
my experience, if I got any real *help* from some of these novices, it was only due to "dumb luck", not much unlike the unlikely proposition of hitting the lottery..
Don't they OWE their "congregation" the expense and effort to actually develop themselves, along professional lines?
I mean.. it's their BUSINESS, isn't it?
Instead.. I see the same old thing, offshoot after offshoot... they are rehashing the old foundational class.. around and around in circles they go.. with slight variations on the theme..
well, it's just a few thoughts..
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frank123lol
Mr.Ham,you said if you got any help at all it was like hitting the lottery,pure dumb luck.Well my own two bit world you did not even ask for help,as you would be considered 'weak'And bring down the almighty household.
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Mark Clarke
"Slight" variations? Have you been reading what I posted?
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Ham
Yep. Well, in a practical sense.. what's the real difference? I mean.. either do works, jump through the hoops to maintain "salvation" or "rewards"..
the end result is pretty much the same..
jumping through hoops..
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Ham
I dunno.. don't read hostility in me, please. I appreciate what you've posted.. but I just have a few observations..
what he's done, looks like to me like the same cart, the same horse, just a different carrot..
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mstar1
It looks pretty much the same to me, they cross a few t's and dot a few i's differently ---but it looks like Classes, advances, fellowships, --tape subscriptions, book store, 'special' get togethers--a magazine--they even have "international' in their name, do they have phone hookups?
Yes they may read a few things slightly differently, but its pretty much the same thing, its not like they are deciding to start an orphanage, or fight world hunger or any of the umpteen million other things that various christian groups do to make the world a more just and livable place
Its still looks like 'research',( <_< ) teaching and fellowship and the same amenities as before..
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Mark Clarke
There aren't many churches that DON'T have classes, advances (except they call them retreats), home fellowships, tapes of services, a book store, 'special' get togethers, and a magazine or newsletter of some kind. Saying that makes them the same as TWI except for a few minor points like THE ENTIRE MESSAGE THEY ARE PROMOTING is like saying, "They have a building, and people come to it and talk about God and the Bible, so there's no difference between them and the Roman Catholic Church."
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johnj
Actually, if you read the NT closely, you will find all these things.
The centralized body of leadership was the 12 apostles. The key Bible word is "oversight," based on the Greek word episkopos, which when slightly mangled in English is "bishop." When Phillip did the odd thing of evangelizing Samaritans, Peter and John went to oversee it. When Greeks came to faith at Antioch (an unheard of event), the central body of oversight (apostles) sent Barnabas to check things out. When a conflict arose between Paul who taught Grace and Judaizers who demanded that Greek converts be circumcised, they went to the governing body of apostles at Jerusalem to resolve the matter.
There were also divisions. In 1 Corinthians some say "I follow Paul," others, "I follow Appollos," others "I follow Peter." Paul tried to unite them under Christ. But others went off to form their own groups. John said "they went out from us because they were not of us," and Paul warned elders in Ephesus that some would leave to draw away disciples aftyer themselves (as VPW did).
There were also church politics. The Greek widows complained that the Hebrew widows were treated better than them (Acts 6) so the apostles (the governing body) designated (ordained) seven men to settle the matter.
The oversight of the apostles continued in the overseers ("bishops") they ordained, because the Church needs some eladers to oversee things. The Jerusalem council was continued by many church councils from the first century until now. The first century church had the same struggles Christians do now, and set up oversight and council models to be contnued as a means to solve problems that arise.
Denominations in the positive sense are churches who band together to do things that individual chruches or Christians cannot do by themselves. For instance, Titus and Timothy oversaw the network of churches Paul planted (Bishops by various names serve the same function of oversight over networks of churches today), and several of them together supported Paul's mission much as denominations organize churches to support missionaries today.
Oversight bodies (like bishops) and denominations are often criticized today, but part of the function they serve is based on healthy Biblical models.
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dmiller
B as in B, and S as in S.
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waysider
It's my personal opinion that many of the problems that festered in The Way were not due to our approach to the Trinity or our view on how many were crucified with Christ or what day Jesus was actually born on or what Jesus actually said when he was on the cross, or any of the other "Bible stuff". The exception to this, I believe, was the the dispensationalism that permeated and was intertwined with everything we did on a practical level. In other words, the problems were rooted in the lifestyle we were living. The Bible was somewhat incidental to it. Many people who were not in the various training programs or had minimal exposure to them or had a unique experience in them, simply don't grasp the profound effect that isolationism and constant denial of "self" can have. I don't expect them to. But, on the other hand, I don't expect them to persistently discount the real experiences of people who were directly affected. With that said, the heart of my questions is not with what any particular group teaches about the scriptures, per-se, but rather what sort of lifestyle they promote. I know very little about this group and am certainly not implying there is anything amiss here. However, I am always on my guard to examine any similarities in lifestyle that various groups may have with TWI.
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oldiesman
I'm willing to bet that my former twig coordinators have virtually the same practical lifestyle as they did in twi. i.e., they hold fellowship meetings once a week. The other days of the week, they live their own lives, what they choose to do. They go to special classes once in a while, ones they choose and have committed themselves to. They may witness more, who knows? I don't know what differences there would be from twi on a practical level, i.e., they are Mr. & Mrs. American who love God and run a fellowship once a week.
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Ham
I'd soften it a little.. and say there is LITTLE difference between *them* and the Roman Catholic Church..
they have perhaps a lot of different dressing in the windows.. but they all seem to agree on the Apostle's Creed.. on core values they tend to agree.
but from what I've observed.. there is more oversight in the Roman Catholic Church than almost EVERY twi offshoot I've had the "pleasure" to have encountered.
like the new sowers thingy.. they appear to me to be only answerable to their own overaged egotistical pudgy selves.. I asked nicely the first time if this was indeed the case..
I dunno.. it's just the mentality.. "if we build it, *they* (like zombies) will come.."
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waysider
Try living your life without that luxury on a 24/7-365 basis for 2, 3, 4 years at a time.
Never knowing from minute to minute if something you said or did could get you tossed out into the night.
It takes a toll.
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JeffSjo
A long overdue Hiya back at you DWBH,
After my year plus at the Greasespot I have no trouble believing what you have experienced with Vince, DWBH. And while I am in no way saying this at you because I doubt you, I feel that this must be said.....
I remember all the bad things TWI leadership did to everybody by just one little unsubstantiated put down to turn everyone else away from the object of the put down. Looking back, it almost seems like leadership could turn us away from any good person with but one little such saying.
So while I've read to much to doubt you at this time DWBH I have a request. Is there any way possible that you could spell out some of your experiences with Vince so that the rest of us who only know him as one of the good guys according to TWI propoganda may have something more substantial to go on?
I have a strong preference for credible testimonies to counter religious madmen anyway..... :B)
(edited for spelling)
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi jeff!........i appreciate your gracious grant of credence to what i have posted here at greasespot during the past couple of years.........i have always appreciated your forthrightness, as well as your posts regarding your horrid personal, firsthand experiences with whatever 14th corps maniac who "leads" the offshoot that terrorized and viciously disrupted your personal life........an unfortunately "typical" example of religious hypocrisy and narcissistic hedonism, shamelessly perpetuated in the name of god and "rightly-dividing god's perfect, matchless word"!
if i chose to, i could list and delineate numerous specific acts of many former twi "leaders" who now run lucrative "churches" of their own, who, during their "reigns" as twi "bigshots", committed numerous illicit and immoral acts of mental terrorism and literal physical abuse of folks who were haplessly seeking"spiritual growth" during their time of twi involvement. however, since the span of time is now some 20-30 years after the fact, and, my contact with the numerous victims is no longer current, there is, imho, no real benefit to either party of doing so.....unless the parties themselves agree to engage in a therapeutic discussion of said events for mutual, beneficial, resolution of long-standing and profound psychosocial issues.
vinnie himself, i would think, should be quite poignantly aware of what he's done to and with whom......however, to be honest,........the firsthand knowledge of his acts that i have is no more current than 1989......thats 20 years ago!.....wow!.....hard to believe!..........that's one of the reasons i say that when and if vinnie ever contacts me to personally "own up" to the vicious horrors and collusions he participated in against me personally back then with the likes of geer, et al, i'll be sure to let all know here at greaespot that he's finally apologized to those to whom his personal apologies are 20+ years "overdue"!!........as i've said before, "don't hold your breath!
i know for a fact, that today, as i type this, there are some "offshoots" of vinnie's offshoot that are run by people whom he, vinnie, engaged in extra-marital sex with........i doubt either vinnie, or his partners will ever "fess-up" to this, nor do i expect that they should do so in a public forum.........however, privately, such admissions of what i know to be fact, would go a long way to resolving the "issues" i have with vinnie and his "new" church. the same is true for a number of vic/pfal "torchbearers" running around espousing and promoting their "ministries" just like ted haggard did before he got "busted"!.........only difference being, they haven't been "busted.............yet.
my "goal" is not to publicly expose or bust these folks.........i just seek their personal, private admission to the facts, along with a public act of "contrition" in which they acknowledge their personal acceptance of the fact that vic was a filthy, lying, sexual pervert, predator and alcoholic, as well as a bible liar and spritual charlatan........not just some smarmy, rote expression of their everlasting thankfulness for the part of his "ministry" that "kept them alive" past 30 years of age, to develope their own personal brand of religion to keep their families fed, and their "congregations" sending in the money!
i have discussed vinnie's "new" church here at greasespot with mark clarke before.........i do not wish to re-engage in a discussion of cog, "abrahamic faith", "kingdom ready" theology with him again.......he has a right to his religious beliefs, as do all amercian citizens..........but, his promotion of vinnie's church as a somehow "different", or "unique", or "doctrinally" more "mature" offshoot than cff, stfi, or the rest, holds absolutely no water with me.........one man's cult is another man's orthodoxy.......nor do i desire to engage in mudslinging 20 years after the fact!...........however........i know what i know, and folks like vinnie, geer, jalvis, schoenheit, seed, clapp, guigou, etc., etc., etc., know what i know too.............it'll all come out in the wash.........it always does.........i know also, that my conscience is clean and clear......i have paid a very high price for determining to remain honest and "unbought"..........the others i've mentioned, and many more unmentioned, have received alot of bucks for their denial, unrepentant silence, and decisions to sell themselves to whatever brand of so-called "christian" religion that pays their personal bills!
i'm not setting myself up as a self-righteous martyr, nor do i even assume that the facts i may share have any importance or value to very many people.........however, i live with myself knowing that i'm no liar, pimp or whore when it comes to what i experienced in twi..........sometimes i do feel like hitchcock's "the man who knew too much", .......but, really.......not many care.........it's just another story in "the naked city" of religion and religious cults!................peace.
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sirguessalot
a tad rant as i pass by...
i cant help but agree with the notion that the differences are slight
kinda like taking 2 steps from a corner place
on a 100-step journey
or like rearranging the furniture and decor
without adding any more floors to the structure (or removing them to reset the foundation)
in my post-way studies and experiences with religions, psychologies, histories, lineages, practices, etc...
i find that this new wave of industrial strength christianity has a thousand faces
but share at least a few distinct qualities that keep them from embodying anything even close to what they claim
1) a hellbent dependence on having the right belief-system and theological conceptual models and maps and language-sets
...and an almost complete avoidance of any effective, demonstrable, testable, life-transforming actual practices
2) a rejection of 99.99% of the values of other histories, experiences, traditions, or lineages
...preferring to reinvent spiritual wheels in the garage ... all the while becoming awestruck by these profoundly ordinary age-old revelations
3) a rejection of 99.99% of the insight and oversight that comes from those outside of one's sub-sub-sub-sub cultural mythology
....and an inability to "love your (so-called) enemy"
4) an almost utter distrust of our own experiences, as well as our capacities to interpret and process our experiences
...we have given our ability to heal our selves over to healers who have forgotten how wounded they are
5) more...but my time and space is up
part of all this reminds me of lord of the flies
and what happens when childlike adults become stranded on an island
fortunately....being childlike adults is the game of the day
as is being stranded on an island
so perhaps our problem/solution is not as much how to condemn this condition
but how to understand it so we can plant the seeds of healing it
i have a few ideas...but must return to my day job
space and grace
Todd
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Mark Clarke
DWBH,
I find it amazing that you would claim you don't "desire to engage in mudslinging 20 years after the fact" after having just "slung" a significant amount of mud in the previous two paragraphs. What was the purpose of making such statements if you refuse to even accept that things could be different, let alone find out whether they are different?
First of all, since you admit that the firsthand knowledge of his acts that you have is no more current than 1989, I have to assume that the extramarital sex you refer to was before that. So truthfully then, you don't really know if "Vinnie" or his "partners" have "fessed up" or resolved anything since then, especially since, as you say, you wouldn't expect them to do so in a public forum.
Second, you say you don't wish to discuss his theology again, but you accuse him of developing "his own personal brand of religion" to keep his family fed, and his "congregation" sending in the money. But you have no idea what happened to change his doctrinal views. I can assure you it had nothing to do with feeding his family or getting money from his congregation. In fact it began in the late 1990s, with the biggest changes after 2000. Besides, if he wanted to make up a doctrine just to keep people happy, he would not have chosen such controversial ones.
And speaking of his doctrinal views, you and several others still claim it's only slightly different from TWI, and lump it in with CFF and STFI. But as has been discussed at length here at GreaseSpot, much of the root of the problems in TWI were based in wrong doctrine, leading to sinful actions. Specifically the misguided "grace" idea, whereby we were taught that as long as we confessed Romans 10:9, we were saved, "heaven bound and all hell couldn't stop us" no matter what we did afterward. This was the rationalization behind much of the crap that happened in the old ministry, and still does in many of the offshoots. Far from holding to that idea, Living Hope, and Vince specifically, believes and teaches that our actions are indeed relevant, and are an indication of the faith we claim to have. So much so that if one continues to habitually practice sin unrepentantly, he will not inherit the kingdom. This point, especially, has caused many other TWI offshoots to question the validity of his doctrines.
Now I don't want to get into a debate about the doctrine here. My point is that the people who keep saying they don't see much difference between Vince's doctrine and TWI's aren't understanding what he is teaching. And what he is teaching has been making changes in the lives of many people in his area, when they realize that this period of preparation for the Kingdom has its purpose, and it is not to "live a more abundant life and operate all nine all the time." It's one thing if people disagree with his doctrines (that can be handled in the Doctrinal Forum), but it's quite another to keep saying that what he is teaching is only slightly different from TWI, when that is certainly not the case.
I don't wish to argue about who's church or offshoot is better. What I do want is for people to have their facts CURRENT before making a judgment on someone. That's only fair.
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now I see
LOL!!!Â
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