Before you can address that subject, you first have to wrestle with the possibility that the person was never really a genuine"minister" to begin with. Did they purposely abuse the office with which they were entrusted or simply stumble and fall due to human failings?
edit: I think you also have to differentiate between adultery and Simony.
For example, it's been reported that sexual favors were used in The Way as a form of payment in exchange for ordinations.
Okay, perhaps all sexual misconduct which includes barter, prostitutes, adultery and rape.
What do you think?
I think the pentecostals have it right in this paper -- and yet if it was one time and the person repented -- well it seems like they make it unforgivable... Yet, they say they are forgiven just not placed back in office.
If they repent, from sexual sin should they be back in "office"?
I dont chime in very often down here in the doctrinal section but I would think that is up to the governing board of the Pentecostals.
Im not a church goer but I was invited today to a meeting of a denomination to hear a "candidate" for ordination. Coming from a Way background it was enlightening to see the diligence and detailed care that went into the decision making process-just to see if someone was even eligible... So far its been a three year process, which involved all sorts of things I wont go into and Today was a 90 minute presentation by the candidate and a question and answer period with leaders and clergy from the entire region of churches....In other words its not something that is taken or given lightly.
I know from minister friends in this particular denomination that when ministers are hired they have a detailed contractual agreement with the church that hires them. They are the face of the church to the community and part of their job requirements is to 'avoid all appearances of evil". It gets very detailed about what they cant do as part of their employment agreement. They cant even buy a lottery ticket in the town in which they serve. If they break the contract their employment as a minister can be severed.
I know of one minister in my area who was under peer review and examination for six months because he told someone in his church to go f- themselves. I am not a member of the denomination but it seemed a little stringent to me. (I'd get fired in my first three minutes...)
That was just for swearing.
People make mistakes, but if a sexual breach is made in a church setting there are bigger issues that need to be dealt with than just the sex itself. If a minister would cross a line that jeopardizes not only his career, maybe his family, and in many instances his entire church he has faulty judgment and a host of other issues that really need to be looked at and dont need to be in the forefront of any church.
If professionals in other fields make heinous mistakes in their fields they are fired.
Churches are in the business of spirituality and the benefits of a morally upright and virtuous life. If the minister cant lead in that way by example he is not qualified and could destroy the whole church.
Sure let him back and forgive him, help him work through his problem. I dont know whats biblically right or accurate but from a practical standpoint I'd never put him in any position that represented the church again--He already broke his "holy vows' once--If he is so 'gifted' Im sure he can find secular job somewhere..but to me it would be much too dangerous a position to put a church in if you wanted it to survive longterm....
..unless of course your in TWI--then make him a region coordinator or put him in the presidents cabinet---but you know what happened to that outfit---right down the shooter it went....
I think that waysider has a very valid point, a genuine christian filled with the spirit of God just isn`t going to be doing these kinds of things .... and quite frankly that is the only type of person that one would want in a position of authority and power.
I think the ministers that do these things are quite simply wannabe christians. They proudly wear the label, they spout the scriptures...but Jesus said that we would know one another by our fruit. Jesus said there were going to be guys who claimed to prophesy in his name and cast out demons...and he will say he doesn`t know them.....
The fruit shows that these guys are not really our brothers. They have a weakness and have figured out ways to excuse this...repent fine?? That doesn`t mean that they will ever be trustworthy.
When Swaggart did his prostitution thingy and CRIED--
Then, was caught again, I think the church was crazy to let him continue in leadership.
Just like with Marion Barry of DC when he was caught buying drugs -- they re-elected him... give me a break.
There should be a higher standard.
I go to the Baptist church here as it feels "safer" than the pentecostal groups. One of the thing the pastor said was, "years ago there was a minister who was so in the walk and watching his step he prayed Lord, if you see that further down the line that I would be weak and cheat on my wife with come woman -- and hurt your word and your people -- please take me now. My preacher said he agreed but he changed his prayer a little... he prayed Lord, if you see that further down the line that I would be weak and cheat on my wife with come woman -- and hurt your word and your people -- please take HER now." ;)
Then, should divorce and remarriage among clergy be considered sexual sin?
See, I do not think so. I do not think anyone should have to stay married to the wrong person. I do not mean "a little wrong" but I mean a hateful horrible situation -- I think everyone should be allowed to make a mistake, recover, and look for happiness. But the church is HARD on "remarrying" pastors. I think each situation needs to be looked at for its problems. And ultimately, it is up to the PERSON and God.
Mstar that is really interesting...
Thanks Rascal and Waysider for your input as well. I would have no problem following a divorced pastor. As Bow pointed out in the 10 commandments it says not to commit adultery-- it does not say not to divorce. That to me is key on how things are looked at by God. Adultery betrays another person, divorce openly says "this is not working" I want OUT. It is not a "lie" or a "secret" then. Adultery is a lie, a secret, a betrayal... A cowardly way to have your cake and eat it to-- Just get a divorce and let the cards fall where they may....
I'd lean to a being alittle more lenient on divorced pastors BUT I wouldnt want them necessarily pastoring while they are going through their divorce or in the aftermath either.
I am divorced and for me it was a very difficult time, not only during that period but for about 3 to 5 years afterward.
I'd opt to give 'em about a 5 year timeout to reevalute and redirect their lives before they were considered for active ministry.
I am sure that various denominations have guidelines that they follow for that as well.
....
While we are on sex and clergy, I'd bring up the situation that is fracturing the Episcopal Church and threatens the entire Anglican communion worldwide. 100's of millions of people are dividing out over one guy. Its questionable if the denomination will even survive. It would take this thread in a whole different direction and get too complex (the episcoplaians have been wrestling with it for 6 years and have no clear cut answers)so wont derail it.
Sex and clergy is an interesting and volatile subject. They are people like everyone else but they sure can open up a can of worms hurry. Maybe thats why the catholics dont let their clergy touch anyone--but even that view backfired
Okay, perhaps all sexual misconduct which includes barter, prostitutes, adultery and rape.
What do you think?
I think the pentecostals have it right in this paper -- and yet if it was one time and the person repented -- well it seems like they make it unforgivable... Yet, they say they are forgiven just not placed back in office.
If they repent, from sexual sin should they be back in "office"?
Mankind has their rules and regs, but IMHO it is totally up to the Lord and King Himself. He knows the hearts of men and women who serve Him.
And what about the pastor who commits a sexually oriented crime, i.e., rape (including statutory) sexual abuse of a minor, etc?
Have seen in one situation similar to that and the SOB is in prison where he belongs, leaving behind a trail of tears and broken hearts. He had a family.
Honestly, hindsight being 20/20, there were some flags up, not with him but with other members of the family, that all was not well, but the entire church was blindsided and ended up disbanding and being closed.
In my view, it's gonna depend on the person, their particular error/sin/crime whatever you classify it, and whether the heart of the individual has truly repented and changed, if it was an actual crime.
Which doesn't really address the matter of divorce at all, but is kinda semi-relevant.
Personally.. I think if a *minister* or one in authority is CAUGHT in adultery, prostitution or similar sexual sin.. it was not, by FAR the FIRST time.
they got "sloppy" about it.. about the details, covering their tracks.. maybe even turned a tad bit arrogant
I'd say.. too late to fix something.. it's far too deep rooted for a little cry and "sowie" to really correct the situation..
I noticed that the church statement referenced in the first post allows an ex-minister to have an active role in church ministry under the pastor, just not to hold the position of pastor. It places him under oversight rather than placing him into a positoon of oversight. That's an improtant distinction, and a sort of compromise between being a minister and not ministering at all.
My church body, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod also follows the practice of removing a person from office for adultery and not allowing him to be restored to office in the future. But he can still be part of a church and its ministry in many ways.
A couple of the posts above seem very hard on ministers who commit adultery, and seem to suggest that it is always conscious, premeditated sin showng some kind of retrobate mind.
I think adultery is that way sometimes (and apparenly was with Wierwille). But I also think that in many cases it is much more complex than that. People, including ministers, have deep emotional needs. we want to be loved. We want intimacy. We are vulnerable emotionally. We don't want to divorce. And what if a minister's wife is the opposite of all these things-- withholding love and intimacy, perhaps being emotionally distant or even abusive (overtly or in a passive-aggressive way)? A big emotional gap can develop making a person more vulnerable to a woman, and can be relief and comfort to a hurting heart.
I am not saying this makes adultery OK, but that Jesus' words "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" is true of us all, minister or not.
like in loy's case "it was a ONE TIME, CONSENSUAL *affair*".. and later we find it was a regular "habit" of sorts..
I think the guys that cry "it was just ONE TIME.. " are practiced liars.. they've rehearsed that little trail of tears since the second, third or fourth time..
David committed adultery and murder but was restored. He kept on being "King"
did he? To me it would appear.. he ended up with a country plunged into various civil wars and conflicts.. his own household, he could not adequately control or guide..
advisors and military personal jumped ship, not to mention his own offspring..
maybe king in name only, and that by the skin of his teeth..
johnj, I would say that if a minister is having such problems in his own marriage, maybe he needs to take a leave of absence and get that stuff worked out. Find out why his wife is cold and unloving; maybe it's not all her fault.
A very famous and prominent pastor on the west coast irritated a lot of folks with a comment in his blog regarding the Ted Swaggart thing when he blamed the gentleman's wife for "letting herself go" and stated that if a man commits adultery maybe the wife didn't share in his sin, but she didn't much help him, either.
You can figure out who; I'm not inclined to use his name much, but in all honesty I think a lot of times the fingers ultimately point at the wife, starting with Adam. ("the woman that YOU gave me.."
It's a real good idea for men, ministers or ordinary folks, to just keep their pants zipped. I know it's a challenge but I don't think it's impossible.
staying "married" by those who take scripture and make it into something I do not think it was meant to be - mean with lack of understanding.
If you find yourself married to a person who is nothing like what she presented herself to be, after therapy, after prayer, after much trying to "fix" things, then divorce. Take a break, repair your hearts, then come back.
Adultery was mentioned in the big 10 and divorce was not, gotta mean something...
To me divorce is more "honest" than adultery. Divorce says "This is not working we made a mistake" most people can forgive a mistake.
Adultery says, I do not care if I am a liar to my wife, church members, and use someone else to meet my need for love... It screams of secrets, lies, and deception... A divorce, no matter how bad it tastes, is more honest and upfront.
I guess I am a little off my own topic - but I think we need to look at this-
staying married" but those that take scripture and make it into something I do not think it was meant to be - mean with lack of understanding.
If you find yourself married to a person who is nothing like what she presented herself to be, after therapy, after prayer, after much trying to "fix" things, then divorce. Take a break repair your hearts then come back.
Adultery was mentioned in the big 10 and divorce was not, gotta mean something...
To me divorce is more "honest" than adultery. Divorce says "This is not working we made a mistake" most people can forgive a mistake.
Adultery says, I do not care if I am a liar to my wife, church members, and use someone else to meet my need for love... It screams of secrets, lies, and deception... A divorce, no matter how bad it tastes, is more honest and upfront.
I guess I am a little off my own topic - but I think we need to look at this-
When the Pharisees confronted the Lord Jesus about the issue of divorce, the Lord Jesus quite clearly and succintly stated that only in the case of adultery should one split, not because someone misrepresents themselves while dating. Perhaps then a longer courtship and engagement should have occurred before they said "I do." The Lord Jesus wasn't trying to be a hard person, but the point of the message is divorce is not to be taken lightly, like they do in Las Vegas. Get married, enjoy a roll in the hay, and turn right around and get a legal divorce all in the course of a day.
The reason as the Lord Jesus stated, Moses allowed divorce, God didn't. Moses allowed it because of the hardness of the men's hearts in his day toward their wives. They were tiring of their wives, casting them out of their homes without their children, and because of the culture, the men were allowed to take another wife, but according to Mosaic law, the women were not until the man died, (perhaps a little push in the right direction would have helped ) So God told Moses to allow divorce, because witout the divorce in writing she could not get married again, which would then force her to live on the streets, beg for a living or turn to prostitution in order to survive. Divorce was allowed to help the woman get on with her life even though she would still be bereft of her children from that particular marriage. It was so bad during that day that a man was allowed to get rid of his wife if she burned his toast. Sooooooo.......
The Lord Jesus put the heart of the Father into His message by putting the standard a lot higher for the separation of a man and woman.
Courtship may be longer. Many many things need to be considered before marriage. And if you still get married and are so miserable, not just tired of your wife because her breasts are no longer breasts and her hind end became part of her legs in age, then divorce.
I know a Baptist preacher who had a gun in his mouth over a BAD marriage. Is suicide better than divorce? What made divorce the inexcusable sin?
This preacher was married for 22 years and his wife died of cancer. He still had three kids at home and THIS woman whose husband died 2 years prior got it in her head "preacher man" was for her. She did everything to "get him". And He knew her and the deceased husband for years. Anyway, she was kind & enjoyed what he enjoyed... On a one to one social level she mimicked his "wife" who had died.
Grief stricken, desperate for his family, he thought God restored that which the locust had eaten. After marriage, she, like the sociopath discussed in the other thread, revealed her true self. And this man's whole life was ministry. He did not want to loose his ministry. He would rather die. And became so desperate, that even with kids; he thought his own death was better than life with this demon.
God intervened and he took the gun out of his mouth and divorced.
Does God like divorce - no.
But I don't think he likes lottery tickets, cursing, over-eating and many other things either. Divorce should be a well thought through decision but I do not think it should be removed as an option just because a man teaches the Bible.
That leads to lonely broken people and the devil with an open door to their human desires... Adultery.
Now, if someone is just a pig that wants to cheat and blame his wife - I get that.
I think we as a church need to look "at divorce" and we may, as a church, see less "adultery".
It should not be an answer "first" looked at in a "sick" marriage but certainly not removed as an option. But adultery? That to me is much much worse.
When the Pharisees confronted the Lord Jesus about the issue of divorce, the Lord Jesus quite clearly and succintly stated that only in the case of adultery should one split, not because someone misrepresents themselves while dating.
Trying to compare marriage in the 1st century to marriage in the 21st century is ludicrous at best.
I have heard it all before, I was even counceled, if I was ever struck, it was my faulrt for pushing the buttons and not shutting up...If my husband wouldn`t need to seek extra marital *comfort* if I was doing my job right....
Yeah, the woman let herself go, she wasn`t inovative enough in the bed room, yadda yadda...I think the adulterer will tell themselves ANYTHING to excuse and justify their own lack of morality and character.
My father claimed that my mother was too busy raising their four young children, (his girl friend who had nothing better to focus on than making herself beautiful for him and making him feel like a king)....well she was much more exciting. It was all my Mom`s fault for not being nicer...
People need to stop making excuses and blaming others for their own immoral choices. No, I don`t think divorce is wrong, I do think it is dead wrong when one member of the union just doesn`t want to pull their weight any more because the luster has gone out of raising their kids, paying their mortgage and buying groceries. Lot more fun to leave the partner holding the bag and run off with someone and pretend that you don`t have any responsibilities.
How many people live with someone who no doubt would rightfully claim that their spouse has *let themselves go* but gee whiz...won`t allow them a dime. It costs a lot of money to maintain a fashionable wardrobe, to purchase cosmetics, to visit the hair stylist, the dentist for that perfect smile...etc If the wife tries to take a job to suppliment, so that she can wear something besides good will bargains...the the complaints that the house isn`t maintained to the proper standard, the meals aren`t made from scratch...or there is no help with the children...
Believe me, if someone wants to whine and complain about their spouse, it is a whole lot easier and feels justifiable to step out and cheat with someone who`s moral standards and character are as low and dishonest as your own....the LOVING thing that one would EXPECT out of a spouse, much less a man claiming to be a christian...even MORE so a man who has the audacity to claim to want to guide people....would be to roll up their sleeves, and pitch in with the tough work of raising a family help lighten the load of the spouse so that they could look up from the dish suds, and over the piles of dirty laundry ... and maybe have the strength and energy to supposedly *maintain* themselves a little better.
I am so sick of people excusing their immoral behavior, rather than having the character and fortitude to do the hard job of helping that person that you have promised to love handle the load that you yourself have placed on their shoulders.
Try looking at why the person might have let themselves go, or become distant, or preoccupied, or frankly become so worn out that they just don`t GIVE a damn any more....rather than using that as an excuse to be immoral, and justify ones OWN lack of character.
If you cannot do that, than have the courage and honesty to divorce rather than sneak around breaking your vows and destroying another....not only emotionally and mentally,. but possibly even bringing home a deadly disease to an innocent party.
We need to hold each other to the standard and guide lines that we are given in the scripture. We are told that adultery is one of the characteristics of those *of the flesh* A person who cannot get this, who can rationalize why it doesn`t apply to them, has no business presenting themselves as a minister, and if they mess up in this area...it shows a moral lack of character that is necessary for one in whom we must place the trust of our spiritual lives. Sure, sure, I know that God forgives us...but that doesn`t mean that we are fit to be ministers.
If you cannot "do" it then get divorced rather than sneak around in adultery.
There are many reasons for divorce and "getting older" should not be one of them. For better or worse.
However, when the safe alternatives, therapy, talking, praying, trying do not work for that couple then I think divorce is better than adultery.
Divorce says "It did not work out." Adultery is a sneaky, lying, trust-breaking, soul crunching horror show to all concerned.
VP used to tell people how his wife's vagina was not funtioning or something... stupid. He should have divorced her and given her a chance to find love rather than destroy the world around him with his small penis and his big lies.
"I am so sick of people excusing their immoral behavior, rather than having the character and fortitude to do the hard job of helping that person that you have promised to love handle the load that you yourself have placed on their shoulders."
What if the good person trying so hard is the one who finally wants out? I think they should be able to get out of a horrible situation and still be able to love God and talk about the Bible.
The adulterer - should not be able to do so. It is a different "crime" so-to-speak.
Divorce openly says I failed. Adultery is insidious and takes down more lives than divorce - IMO
Recommended Posts
waysider
My opinion---------
(When referencing a specific individual.)
Before you can address that subject, you first have to wrestle with the possibility that the person was never really a genuine"minister" to begin with. Did they purposely abuse the office with which they were entrusted or simply stumble and fall due to human failings?
edit: I think you also have to differentiate between adultery and Simony.
For example, it's been reported that sexual favors were used in The Way as a form of payment in exchange for ordinations.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Okay, perhaps all sexual misconduct which includes barter, prostitutes, adultery and rape.
What do you think?
I think the pentecostals have it right in this paper -- and yet if it was one time and the person repented -- well it seems like they make it unforgivable... Yet, they say they are forgiven just not placed back in office.
If they repent, from sexual sin should they be back in "office"?
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
I dont chime in very often down here in the doctrinal section but I would think that is up to the governing board of the Pentecostals.
Im not a church goer but I was invited today to a meeting of a denomination to hear a "candidate" for ordination. Coming from a Way background it was enlightening to see the diligence and detailed care that went into the decision making process-just to see if someone was even eligible... So far its been a three year process, which involved all sorts of things I wont go into and Today was a 90 minute presentation by the candidate and a question and answer period with leaders and clergy from the entire region of churches....In other words its not something that is taken or given lightly.
I know from minister friends in this particular denomination that when ministers are hired they have a detailed contractual agreement with the church that hires them. They are the face of the church to the community and part of their job requirements is to 'avoid all appearances of evil". It gets very detailed about what they cant do as part of their employment agreement. They cant even buy a lottery ticket in the town in which they serve. If they break the contract their employment as a minister can be severed.
I know of one minister in my area who was under peer review and examination for six months because he told someone in his church to go f- themselves. I am not a member of the denomination but it seemed a little stringent to me. (I'd get fired in my first three minutes...)
That was just for swearing.
People make mistakes, but if a sexual breach is made in a church setting there are bigger issues that need to be dealt with than just the sex itself. If a minister would cross a line that jeopardizes not only his career, maybe his family, and in many instances his entire church he has faulty judgment and a host of other issues that really need to be looked at and dont need to be in the forefront of any church.
If professionals in other fields make heinous mistakes in their fields they are fired.
Churches are in the business of spirituality and the benefits of a morally upright and virtuous life. If the minister cant lead in that way by example he is not qualified and could destroy the whole church.
Sure let him back and forgive him, help him work through his problem. I dont know whats biblically right or accurate but from a practical standpoint I'd never put him in any position that represented the church again--He already broke his "holy vows' once--If he is so 'gifted' Im sure he can find secular job somewhere..but to me it would be much too dangerous a position to put a church in if you wanted it to survive longterm....
..unless of course your in TWI--then make him a region coordinator or put him in the presidents cabinet---but you know what happened to that outfit---right down the shooter it went....
just my two cents
carry on
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
leafytwiglet
I've been considering this ever since I read it.. I went outside and did physical labor.(how I mull things over)
I think forgiveness and allowing a person to have their position of authority back in cases of Sexual misconduct are two different things.
Of course you forgive them their sin.. but to allow some one to be in such an important position where they can harm others by their breach.
No I do not think they should be allowed to hold that position again.
These are not children or young adults. these are grown ups who understand exactly what they are doing.
This is not a little thing to have sex with another person.
it is not something that happens in a flash
IT is an event that has been thought about. an encounter that has happened several times before consummation of it.
God has made quite clear in his word that Adultery is wrong.
A minister/ Priest/ Reverend is to over see guard teach and be a living example of Christ to the best of their ability.
Any unseemly act does not just affect them but the entire congregation.
To be so cavalier as to commit these kind of acts speaks volumes about their character.. THat they think it is okay for to break their vows.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I think that waysider has a very valid point, a genuine christian filled with the spirit of God just isn`t going to be doing these kinds of things .... and quite frankly that is the only type of person that one would want in a position of authority and power.
I think the ministers that do these things are quite simply wannabe christians. They proudly wear the label, they spout the scriptures...but Jesus said that we would know one another by our fruit. Jesus said there were going to be guys who claimed to prophesy in his name and cast out demons...and he will say he doesn`t know them.....
The fruit shows that these guys are not really our brothers. They have a weakness and have figured out ways to excuse this...repent fine?? That doesn`t mean that they will ever be trustworthy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
When Swaggart did his prostitution thingy and CRIED--
Then, was caught again, I think the church was crazy to let him continue in leadership.
Just like with Marion Barry of DC when he was caught buying drugs -- they re-elected him... give me a break.
There should be a higher standard.
I go to the Baptist church here as it feels "safer" than the pentecostal groups. One of the thing the pastor said was, "years ago there was a minister who was so in the walk and watching his step he prayed Lord, if you see that further down the line that I would be weak and cheat on my wife with come woman -- and hurt your word and your people -- please take me now. My preacher said he agreed but he changed his prayer a little... he prayed Lord, if you see that further down the line that I would be weak and cheat on my wife with come woman -- and hurt your word and your people -- please take HER now." ;)
Then, should divorce and remarriage among clergy be considered sexual sin?
See, I do not think so. I do not think anyone should have to stay married to the wrong person. I do not mean "a little wrong" but I mean a hateful horrible situation -- I think everyone should be allowed to make a mistake, recover, and look for happiness. But the church is HARD on "remarrying" pastors. I think each situation needs to be looked at for its problems. And ultimately, it is up to the PERSON and God.
Mstar that is really interesting...
Thanks Rascal and Waysider for your input as well. I would have no problem following a divorced pastor. As Bow pointed out in the 10 commandments it says not to commit adultery-- it does not say not to divorce. That to me is key on how things are looked at by God. Adultery betrays another person, divorce openly says "this is not working" I want OUT. It is not a "lie" or a "secret" then. Adultery is a lie, a secret, a betrayal... A cowardly way to have your cake and eat it to-- Just get a divorce and let the cards fall where they may....
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
leafy - I see your point about the "vows" as well...
It is a big question
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
I'd lean to a being alittle more lenient on divorced pastors BUT I wouldnt want them necessarily pastoring while they are going through their divorce or in the aftermath either.
I am divorced and for me it was a very difficult time, not only during that period but for about 3 to 5 years afterward.
I'd opt to give 'em about a 5 year timeout to reevalute and redirect their lives before they were considered for active ministry.
I am sure that various denominations have guidelines that they follow for that as well.
....
While we are on sex and clergy, I'd bring up the situation that is fracturing the Episcopal Church and threatens the entire Anglican communion worldwide. 100's of millions of people are dividing out over one guy. Its questionable if the denomination will even survive. It would take this thread in a whole different direction and get too complex (the episcoplaians have been wrestling with it for 6 years and have no clear cut answers)so wont derail it.
Sex and clergy is an interesting and volatile subject. They are people like everyone else but they sure can open up a can of worms hurry. Maybe thats why the catholics dont let their clergy touch anyone--but even that view backfired
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
brideofjc
Mankind has their rules and regs, but IMHO it is totally up to the Lord and King Himself. He knows the hearts of men and women who serve Him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
And what about the pastor who commits a sexually oriented crime, i.e., rape (including statutory) sexual abuse of a minor, etc?
Have seen in one situation similar to that and the SOB is in prison where he belongs, leaving behind a trail of tears and broken hearts. He had a family.
Honestly, hindsight being 20/20, there were some flags up, not with him but with other members of the family, that all was not well, but the entire church was blindsided and ended up disbanding and being closed.
In my view, it's gonna depend on the person, their particular error/sin/crime whatever you classify it, and whether the heart of the individual has truly repented and changed, if it was an actual crime.
Which doesn't really address the matter of divorce at all, but is kinda semi-relevant.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Yeah, like those priests who were still working at the church with kids....
Man....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Personally.. I think if a *minister* or one in authority is CAUGHT in adultery, prostitution or similar sexual sin.. it was not, by FAR the FIRST time.
they got "sloppy" about it.. about the details, covering their tracks.. maybe even turned a tad bit arrogant
I'd say.. too late to fix something.. it's far too deep rooted for a little cry and "sowie" to really correct the situation..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johnj
I noticed that the church statement referenced in the first post allows an ex-minister to have an active role in church ministry under the pastor, just not to hold the position of pastor. It places him under oversight rather than placing him into a positoon of oversight. That's an improtant distinction, and a sort of compromise between being a minister and not ministering at all.
My church body, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod also follows the practice of removing a person from office for adultery and not allowing him to be restored to office in the future. But he can still be part of a church and its ministry in many ways.
A couple of the posts above seem very hard on ministers who commit adultery, and seem to suggest that it is always conscious, premeditated sin showng some kind of retrobate mind.
I think adultery is that way sometimes (and apparenly was with Wierwille). But I also think that in many cases it is much more complex than that. People, including ministers, have deep emotional needs. we want to be loved. We want intimacy. We are vulnerable emotionally. We don't want to divorce. And what if a minister's wife is the opposite of all these things-- withholding love and intimacy, perhaps being emotionally distant or even abusive (overtly or in a passive-aggressive way)? A big emotional gap can develop making a person more vulnerable to a woman, and can be relief and comfort to a hurting heart.
I am not saying this makes adultery OK, but that Jesus' words "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" is true of us all, minister or not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I think this just shows how "wacko" the judgment of the "trustees" was to put the loyster in charge of RESEARCH..
and people still trust for the lack of better words, morally bankrupt self serving cowards and hypocrites..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I dunno John J..
it just seems to me.. the first time, one might be very well aware of the ramifications.. and take a few precautions, cover the trail..
what I wonder.. how many prostitutes did swaggart visit before he was careless enough to get caught?
it's just a thought.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
like in loy's case "it was a ONE TIME, CONSENSUAL *affair*".. and later we find it was a regular "habit" of sorts..
I think the guys that cry "it was just ONE TIME.. " are practiced liars.. they've rehearsed that little trail of tears since the second, third or fourth time..
how does one "restore" someone in that condition?
Just a few thoughts. I hope not too many..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
did he? To me it would appear.. he ended up with a country plunged into various civil wars and conflicts.. his own household, he could not adequately control or guide..
advisors and military personal jumped ship, not to mention his own offspring..
maybe king in name only, and that by the skin of his teeth..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
johnj, I would say that if a minister is having such problems in his own marriage, maybe he needs to take a leave of absence and get that stuff worked out. Find out why his wife is cold and unloving; maybe it's not all her fault.
A very famous and prominent pastor on the west coast irritated a lot of folks with a comment in his blog regarding the Ted Swaggart thing when he blamed the gentleman's wife for "letting herself go" and stated that if a man commits adultery maybe the wife didn't share in his sin, but she didn't much help him, either.
You can figure out who; I'm not inclined to use his name much, but in all honesty I think a lot of times the fingers ultimately point at the wife, starting with Adam. ("the woman that YOU gave me.."
It's a real good idea for men, ministers or ordinary folks, to just keep their pants zipped. I know it's a challenge but I don't think it's impossible.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Johnj
The pastors are whipped into
staying "married" by those who take scripture and make it into something I do not think it was meant to be - mean with lack of understanding.
If you find yourself married to a person who is nothing like what she presented herself to be, after therapy, after prayer, after much trying to "fix" things, then divorce. Take a break, repair your hearts, then come back.
Adultery was mentioned in the big 10 and divorce was not, gotta mean something...
To me divorce is more "honest" than adultery. Divorce says "This is not working we made a mistake" most people can forgive a mistake.
Adultery says, I do not care if I am a liar to my wife, church members, and use someone else to meet my need for love... It screams of secrets, lies, and deception... A divorce, no matter how bad it tastes, is more honest and upfront.
I guess I am a little off my own topic - but I think we need to look at this-
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
brideofjc
When the Pharisees confronted the Lord Jesus about the issue of divorce, the Lord Jesus quite clearly and succintly stated that only in the case of adultery should one split, not because someone misrepresents themselves while dating. Perhaps then a longer courtship and engagement should have occurred before they said "I do." The Lord Jesus wasn't trying to be a hard person, but the point of the message is divorce is not to be taken lightly, like they do in Las Vegas. Get married, enjoy a roll in the hay, and turn right around and get a legal divorce all in the course of a day.
The reason as the Lord Jesus stated, Moses allowed divorce, God didn't. Moses allowed it because of the hardness of the men's hearts in his day toward their wives. They were tiring of their wives, casting them out of their homes without their children, and because of the culture, the men were allowed to take another wife, but according to Mosaic law, the women were not until the man died, (perhaps a little push in the right direction would have helped
) So God told Moses to allow divorce, because witout the divorce in writing she could not get married again, which would then force her to live on the streets, beg for a living or turn to prostitution in order to survive. Divorce was allowed to help the woman get on with her life even though she would still be bereft of her children from that particular marriage. It was so bad during that day that a man was allowed to get rid of his wife if she burned his toast. Sooooooo.......
The Lord Jesus put the heart of the Father into His message by putting the standard a lot higher for the separation of a man and woman.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Courtship may be longer. Many many things need to be considered before marriage. And if you still get married and are so miserable, not just tired of your wife because her breasts are no longer breasts and her hind end became part of her legs in age, then divorce.
I know a Baptist preacher who had a gun in his mouth over a BAD marriage. Is suicide better than divorce? What made divorce the inexcusable sin?
This preacher was married for 22 years and his wife died of cancer. He still had three kids at home and THIS woman whose husband died 2 years prior got it in her head "preacher man" was for her. She did everything to "get him". And He knew her and the deceased husband for years. Anyway, she was kind & enjoyed what he enjoyed... On a one to one social level she mimicked his "wife" who had died.
Grief stricken, desperate for his family, he thought God restored that which the locust had eaten. After marriage, she, like the sociopath discussed in the other thread, revealed her true self. And this man's whole life was ministry. He did not want to loose his ministry. He would rather die. And became so desperate, that even with kids; he thought his own death was better than life with this demon.
God intervened and he took the gun out of his mouth and divorced.
Does God like divorce - no.
But I don't think he likes lottery tickets, cursing, over-eating and many other things either. Divorce should be a well thought through decision but I do not think it should be removed as an option just because a man teaches the Bible.
That leads to lonely broken people and the devil with an open door to their human desires... Adultery.
Now, if someone is just a pig that wants to cheat and blame his wife - I get that.
I think we as a church need to look "at divorce" and we may, as a church, see less "adultery".
It should not be an answer "first" looked at in a "sick" marriage but certainly not removed as an option. But adultery? That to me is much much worse.
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Trying to compare marriage in the 1st century to marriage in the 21st century is ludicrous at best.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
You know? VPW blamed his wife too...
I have heard it all before, I was even counceled, if I was ever struck, it was my faulrt for pushing the buttons and not shutting up...If my husband wouldn`t need to seek extra marital *comfort* if I was doing my job right....
Yeah, the woman let herself go, she wasn`t inovative enough in the bed room, yadda yadda...I think the adulterer will tell themselves ANYTHING to excuse and justify their own lack of morality and character.
My father claimed that my mother was too busy raising their four young children, (his girl friend who had nothing better to focus on than making herself beautiful for him and making him feel like a king)....well she was much more exciting. It was all my Mom`s fault for not being nicer...
People need to stop making excuses and blaming others for their own immoral choices. No, I don`t think divorce is wrong, I do think it is dead wrong when one member of the union just doesn`t want to pull their weight any more because the luster has gone out of raising their kids, paying their mortgage and buying groceries. Lot more fun to leave the partner holding the bag and run off with someone and pretend that you don`t have any responsibilities.
How many people live with someone who no doubt would rightfully claim that their spouse has *let themselves go* but gee whiz...won`t allow them a dime. It costs a lot of money to maintain a fashionable wardrobe, to purchase cosmetics, to visit the hair stylist, the dentist for that perfect smile...etc If the wife tries to take a job to suppliment, so that she can wear something besides good will bargains...the the complaints that the house isn`t maintained to the proper standard, the meals aren`t made from scratch...or there is no help with the children...
Believe me, if someone wants to whine and complain about their spouse, it is a whole lot easier and feels justifiable to step out and cheat with someone who`s moral standards and character are as low and dishonest as your own....the LOVING thing that one would EXPECT out of a spouse, much less a man claiming to be a christian...even MORE so a man who has the audacity to claim to want to guide people....would be to roll up their sleeves, and pitch in with the tough work of raising a family help lighten the load of the spouse so that they could look up from the dish suds, and over the piles of dirty laundry ... and maybe have the strength and energy to supposedly *maintain* themselves a little better.
I am so sick of people excusing their immoral behavior, rather than having the character and fortitude to do the hard job of helping that person that you have promised to love handle the load that you yourself have placed on their shoulders.
Try looking at why the person might have let themselves go, or become distant, or preoccupied, or frankly become so worn out that they just don`t GIVE a damn any more....rather than using that as an excuse to be immoral, and justify ones OWN lack of character.
If you cannot do that, than have the courage and honesty to divorce rather than sneak around breaking your vows and destroying another....not only emotionally and mentally,. but possibly even bringing home a deadly disease to an innocent party.
We need to hold each other to the standard and guide lines that we are given in the scripture. We are told that adultery is one of the characteristics of those *of the flesh* A person who cannot get this, who can rationalize why it doesn`t apply to them, has no business presenting themselves as a minister, and if they mess up in this area...it shows a moral lack of character that is necessary for one in whom we must place the trust of our spiritual lives. Sure, sure, I know that God forgives us...but that doesn`t mean that we are fit to be ministers.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Absolutely
If you cannot "do" it then get divorced rather than sneak around in adultery.
There are many reasons for divorce and "getting older" should not be one of them. For better or worse.
However, when the safe alternatives, therapy, talking, praying, trying do not work for that couple then I think divorce is better than adultery.
Divorce says "It did not work out." Adultery is a sneaky, lying, trust-breaking, soul crunching horror show to all concerned.
VP used to tell people how his wife's vagina was not funtioning or something... stupid. He should have divorced her and given her a chance to find love rather than destroy the world around him with his small penis and his big lies.
"I am so sick of people excusing their immoral behavior, rather than having the character and fortitude to do the hard job of helping that person that you have promised to love handle the load that you yourself have placed on their shoulders."
What if the good person trying so hard is the one who finally wants out? I think they should be able to get out of a horrible situation and still be able to love God and talk about the Bible.
The adulterer - should not be able to do so. It is a different "crime" so-to-speak.
Divorce openly says I failed. Adultery is insidious and takes down more lives than divorce - IMO
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.