Interesting read, waysider. Since I have been studying early Christianity for about a year now, I have seen how much TWI borrowed from a lot of groups. Quite the little mix.
I wanted to comment on what I believe was a "snapping" incident I witnessed and see if anyone witnessed anything similar.
In approximately 1976, the FLO program brought in some people from the "outside" and subjected us to a weekend indoctrination type event. It was not optional. We were not pre-advised of its content. Participation was a required part of our program. From what I've heard and read about Momentus, it appears to have been similar. If I am correct, there were a few FLO who were on field assignments that weekend and were not present. I'll try to keep this brief, so I'm leaving out graphic details.
There was a particular young lady in our program who was artistic and creative. She was moody, broody, up, down, resistant to the program at times and compliant at others. In other words, she was a real, living, breathing, human being. Everyone who knew her loved her just the way she was. What happened that weekend wasn't pleasant or pretty and it transformed her into a state of perpetual cheerfulness and smiling giddiness. It was like that movie The Stepford Wives. Don't get me wrong, we all still loved her. We were perplexed, though, by this new person she seemed to have become----in one short weekend! Not the frog in the pot kind of thing, though I'm inclined to think that could lead up to one of these.She remained that way for the duration of the program. Last I heard, she went into the WC after graduation. (1977) I lost track of her.
The assaults and tirades launched at me personally that weekend had very little lasting effect on me. (I hope) But, seeing what they did to her and some others has haunted me ever since. I think what I witnessed was a genuine "snapping" incident. It's a very disturbing thing to witness.
Has anyone else witnessed one of these close up and personal?
How has it affected you?
edit:
I'm not necessarily talking about a "face melting", but, rather, an incident that results in this kind of sudden profound change.
I know I've seen people change, suddenly they're more assertive, they dress and groom themselves, exercise and schedule, do all the "right" things . . . that was common. Sometimes after a teaching, class or a good yell session. . . .
I know I've seen people change, suddenly they're more assertive, they dress and groom themselves, exercise and schedule, do all the "right" things . . . that was common. Sometimes after a teaching, class or a good yell session. . . .
This was far more profound and seemingly permanent.
It was "explained" that she had been delivered from devil spirits that were oppressing her.
It was often said (one of the threats leaving I guess) if you left twi, you'll revert back to your "old man". All the work you've done to renew your mind and grow, mature, become more godly and blah blah blah would be undone. It would all unravel.
I think that silly, since if it(the unraveling) happens that quick, nothing had really changed inside in the first place. You're mind is "house of cards" waiting to be blown over. (and I believe I've witnessed this too). (snapping?)
I've heard from christians that they pray to god for a change (for whatever issue they have) and they change. Something that happens too them, no work put in, but (they say) a real change had occurred. (I bring this up because I find the contrast/similarity to twi interesting if anything).
Much of the behavior was people acting (IMO). Just behaving like they thought they should, to get the response they want. I think time and repetition, or a good dose of fear, just made it easier to forget it was all an act. But it was still an act, which The Law of Believing would support, because folks could hold their imaginations in mind.
You think that incident with the lady reinforced the leaders' own minds that they had some special power to cast out spirits? (The leaders themselves became more convinced of what they did?)
From what I've heard and read about Momentus, it appears to have been similar.
Has anyone else witnessed one of these close up and personal?
How has it affected you?
edit:
I'm not necessarily talking about a "face melting", but, rather, an incident that results in this kind of sudden profound change.
I spent a fair amount of time around a bunch of people who had taken Momentus...or perhaps I should say, Momentus had taken them. One weekend with these clowns and they were SEVERELY screwed up...I mean, these people had their lives turned inside out and upside down...talk about glassy eyes!
How did it affect me?...When they tried to recruit me into Momentus, I chased them all off like vermin...no thanks, no church with you boy.
I have a question for all those who believe that 'snapping' is based on a solid, professional, and psychiatric premise. ... Ya know, peer review approved and all that, and not something cooked up by somebody who wrote a book, and even had a Doctor's degree to supposedly back them up. <_<
What distinguishes 1) what people claim is a 'snapping' event in a 'cult', from 2) when somebody 'goes down to the altar' and gives their life to Christ in a very emotional revival? Or how do you _know_ that the person was 'snapped' (which would imply something changing them outside of their will), instead of going through a life changing process/decision whereas _they_ are the ones making the decision to go through a difficult, yet supposedly beneficial activity?
And when I ask what distinguishes, I'm talking about an authority who has _proven/validated_ what they say.
I think most of us have experienced paradigm-shifting moments in our lives. Most of them can be characterized as Aha! moments.
What concerns me is when those moments are forced or coerced. The final session of PFAL where people are led into tongues was an example of that coercion (at least for me).
Garth- there is a certain level of coercion in alter calls. It's one of the reasons why my church doesn't do them. There is this build up in an emotionally charged environment that causes people to have that moment. I know of a few people who have snapped (one called it "radically saved") at that moment and never went back. I remember getting caught up in the moment a number of times, but I was more like the seed planted in the rock.
Moodiness was not a well-tolerated quality in TWI. People who are moody tend to be very aware of their surroundings and are affected by them. Training such as Momentus would provided such a sensory overload that disassociating would not be an "abnormal" response in that type of personality. That weekend probably provided the perfect storm that caused her to completely disengage herself emotionally from her surroundings. I guess mind-numbing cheerfulness is better than simple mind-numbness.
I'm no expert in anything, except maybe translating medical mumblings into readable documents, but I witnessed the same incident that Waysider is talking about. It was so horrendous I have blocked large parts of it from my mind. So has the very stable Mr. Garden, who was one of the persecuted and can't remember a damn thing. They actually did this on two occasions, I think and Mr. Garden was involved in the first "advance."
It just absolutely scared the living dang out of me. I remember being in a skit that weekend and I remember wearing white pants and blue top with lace trim, and I remember telling the snotty Branch Coordinator I wanted to go home and being told I was not permitted to do so. I remember crying and telling him how wrong it was. I remember being freezing cold and shivering throughout the whole thing.
The young lady in question lived in the same apartment as me. She was an artistic personality, volatile, wonderful, aggravating and full of life. After that weekend she was dull, monotonous, as predictable as a metronome. She was always down on herself. She dressed in dull clothing. Later, before our wedding, I was able to do something for her that brought her real self to the surface, if only for a small while. God, I loved that girl.
If I knew where she is or even if she is alive, I would be more than happy to track her down and take her to a psychologist I know who is very good with extremely traumatized people.
This same professional thought I had been pretty well adversely affected mentally by TWI. Of course he didn't know me before, but my treatment brought out some pretty weird stuff. He was pretty amazed.
So here again I offer no solid proof. I will be glad to do some research on the internet if that would help you. But honestly, Garth, I think it's hard to tell what is happening to the person next to you when it's happening to you at the same time.
But she sure as heck snapped, if that's what they call it. And I'm no shrink, but I'm no dummy either.
Actually, Bolshevik I think it was similar to what we experienced. LCM was louder and had less finesse, but he was the WC coordinator for years and helped train the limb leaders who did this to us.
After the first "advance" I would have left but I didn't want to admit to my parents I'd screwed up and entered a cult, and then there was the fascinating Mr. Garden - I did want to be around him.
And if anyone is thinking of giving me the "well, how would you know what people go through when they 'snap'?" response, ... please don't. All I was doing was asking a question about 'snapping', and voicing what I thought was a flaw in the theory. (Just want to make sure)
And that's part of what free-thinking is all about folks.
When potential recruits read that an organization called "The Association for Christian Character Development" offers a training that "is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ," and read all the Christian terms in the promotional material, they assume that it must use respectable Christian concepts and methods. But as the training progresses they commonly sense that many of the methods don't seem to fit with what they believe is a Christian approach- but they can't quite put their finger on just what and why. This confusion is because M/B participants seldom have much background knowledge in the areas of aberrant psychology, psychological techniques, manipulation of groups and individuals, and the human potential movement. If they did, they would better recognize why certain elements are disturbing, where the techniques came from and how they produce predictable psychological effects.
Oh - and this:
Momentus once had a dialogue board on its web site (now closed) on which grads could dialogue with trainers. However, when the board became increasingly negative toward the training, Momentus closed it. Christian Educational Services (CES) a group which split off from a cult called The Way International, heavily recruited people from its mailing list to take the training. It also had a message board which included long discussions of M/B. However, CES closed the board in 2000 when it also became very critical of M/B. An Ex-CES group began when many followers of CES became dissatisfied with CES practices, which included its heavy support of M/B. The Ex-CES message board continues to offer discussion of M/B. Message boards often include grads who don't take public stands for or against M/B, but describe both positive and negative things about the training. Old message boards from the CES site and from the now-closed Waydale site (which criticized the cult The Way International) are now archived at
I'll stop now. Waysider- I hope I didn't derail the thread.
And if anyone is thinking of giving me the "well, how would you know what people go through when they 'snap'?" response, ... please don't. All I was doing was asking a question about 'snapping', and voicing what I thought was a flaw in the theory. (Just want to make sure)
And that's part of what free-thinking is all about folks.
and I didn't have an ulterior motive for asking.. just wanted to understand your mind friend.
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Tzaia
Interesting read, waysider. Since I have been studying early Christianity for about a year now, I have seen how much TWI borrowed from a lot of groups. Quite the little mix.
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waysider
I wanted to comment on what I believe was a "snapping" incident I witnessed and see if anyone witnessed anything similar.
In approximately 1976, the FLO program brought in some people from the "outside" and subjected us to a weekend indoctrination type event. It was not optional. We were not pre-advised of its content. Participation was a required part of our program. From what I've heard and read about Momentus, it appears to have been similar. If I am correct, there were a few FLO who were on field assignments that weekend and were not present. I'll try to keep this brief, so I'm leaving out graphic details.
There was a particular young lady in our program who was artistic and creative. She was moody, broody, up, down, resistant to the program at times and compliant at others. In other words, she was a real, living, breathing, human being. Everyone who knew her loved her just the way she was. What happened that weekend wasn't pleasant or pretty and it transformed her into a state of perpetual cheerfulness and smiling giddiness. It was like that movie The Stepford Wives. Don't get me wrong, we all still loved her. We were perplexed, though, by this new person she seemed to have become----in one short weekend! Not the frog in the pot kind of thing, though I'm inclined to think that could lead up to one of these.She remained that way for the duration of the program. Last I heard, she went into the WC after graduation. (1977) I lost track of her.
The assaults and tirades launched at me personally that weekend had very little lasting effect on me. (I hope) But, seeing what they did to her and some others has haunted me ever since. I think what I witnessed was a genuine "snapping" incident. It's a very disturbing thing to witness.
Has anyone else witnessed one of these close up and personal?
How has it affected you?
edit:
I'm not necessarily talking about a "face melting", but, rather, an incident that results in this kind of sudden profound change.
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Bolshevik
your saying this lady changed her personality in one weekend? She did have time put in w/twi prior though?
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waysider
Yes to question #1.
Yes to question #2. (At least 2 years, one of which was FLO.)
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Bolshevik
I know I've seen people change, suddenly they're more assertive, they dress and groom themselves, exercise and schedule, do all the "right" things . . . that was common. Sometimes after a teaching, class or a good yell session. . . .
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waysider
This was far more profound and seemingly permanent.
It was "explained" that she had been delivered from devil spirits that were oppressing her.
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Bolshevik
It was often said (one of the threats leaving I guess) if you left twi, you'll revert back to your "old man". All the work you've done to renew your mind and grow, mature, become more godly and blah blah blah would be undone. It would all unravel.
I think that silly, since if it(the unraveling) happens that quick, nothing had really changed inside in the first place. You're mind is "house of cards" waiting to be blown over. (and I believe I've witnessed this too). (snapping?)
I've heard from christians that they pray to god for a change (for whatever issue they have) and they change. Something that happens too them, no work put in, but (they say) a real change had occurred. (I bring this up because I find the contrast/similarity to twi interesting if anything).
Much of the behavior was people acting (IMO). Just behaving like they thought they should, to get the response they want. I think time and repetition, or a good dose of fear, just made it easier to forget it was all an act. But it was still an act, which The Law of Believing would support, because folks could hold their imaginations in mind.
You think that incident with the lady reinforced the leaders' own minds that they had some special power to cast out spirits? (The leaders themselves became more convinced of what they did?)
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waysider
First---Let me say that I don't believe she was "acting".
You simply can't live in a commune, 24/7/365, and "act" as if you are someone other than yourself.
Second-- The seminar was run by outsiders, non-TWI people. The devil spirit explanation was merely the explanation that the leaders latched onto.
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Bolshevik
ah, I didn't catch that it was folks outside of twi. so i haven't seen anything like that.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I spent a fair amount of time around a bunch of people who had taken Momentus...or perhaps I should say, Momentus had taken them. One weekend with these clowns and they were SEVERELY screwed up...I mean, these people had their lives turned inside out and upside down...talk about glassy eyes!
How did it affect me?...When they tried to recruit me into Momentus, I chased them all off like vermin...no thanks, no church with you boy.
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GarthP2000
I have a question for all those who believe that 'snapping' is based on a solid, professional, and psychiatric premise. ... Ya know, peer review approved and all that, and not something cooked up by somebody who wrote a book, and even had a Doctor's degree to supposedly back them up. <_<
What distinguishes 1) what people claim is a 'snapping' event in a 'cult', from 2) when somebody 'goes down to the altar' and gives their life to Christ in a very emotional revival? Or how do you _know_ that the person was 'snapped' (which would imply something changing them outside of their will), instead of going through a life changing process/decision whereas _they_ are the ones making the decision to go through a difficult, yet supposedly beneficial activity?
And when I ask what distinguishes, I'm talking about an authority who has _proven/validated_ what they say.
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Bolshevik
So you've seen this stuff happening too, Garth?
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Tzaia
I think most of us have experienced paradigm-shifting moments in our lives. Most of them can be characterized as Aha! moments.
What concerns me is when those moments are forced or coerced. The final session of PFAL where people are led into tongues was an example of that coercion (at least for me).
Garth- there is a certain level of coercion in alter calls. It's one of the reasons why my church doesn't do them. There is this build up in an emotionally charged environment that causes people to have that moment. I know of a few people who have snapped (one called it "radically saved") at that moment and never went back. I remember getting caught up in the moment a number of times, but I was more like the seed planted in the rock.
Moodiness was not a well-tolerated quality in TWI. People who are moody tend to be very aware of their surroundings and are affected by them. Training such as Momentus would provided such a sensory overload that disassociating would not be an "abnormal" response in that type of personality. That weekend probably provided the perfect storm that caused her to completely disengage herself emotionally from her surroundings. I guess mind-numbing cheerfulness is better than simple mind-numbness.
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Watered Garden
Garth, honey,
I'm no expert in anything, except maybe translating medical mumblings into readable documents, but I witnessed the same incident that Waysider is talking about. It was so horrendous I have blocked large parts of it from my mind. So has the very stable Mr. Garden, who was one of the persecuted and can't remember a damn thing. They actually did this on two occasions, I think and Mr. Garden was involved in the first "advance."
It just absolutely scared the living dang out of me. I remember being in a skit that weekend and I remember wearing white pants and blue top with lace trim, and I remember telling the snotty Branch Coordinator I wanted to go home and being told I was not permitted to do so. I remember crying and telling him how wrong it was. I remember being freezing cold and shivering throughout the whole thing.
The young lady in question lived in the same apartment as me. She was an artistic personality, volatile, wonderful, aggravating and full of life. After that weekend she was dull, monotonous, as predictable as a metronome. She was always down on herself. She dressed in dull clothing. Later, before our wedding, I was able to do something for her that brought her real self to the surface, if only for a small while. God, I loved that girl.
If I knew where she is or even if she is alive, I would be more than happy to track her down and take her to a psychologist I know who is very good with extremely traumatized people.
This same professional thought I had been pretty well adversely affected mentally by TWI. Of course he didn't know me before, but my treatment brought out some pretty weird stuff. He was pretty amazed.
So here again I offer no solid proof. I will be glad to do some research on the internet if that would help you. But honestly, Garth, I think it's hard to tell what is happening to the person next to you when it's happening to you at the same time.
But she sure as heck snapped, if that's what they call it. And I'm no shrink, but I'm no dummy either.
WG
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Bolshevik
this makes me think that all that stuff lcm and everyone did in the 90s wasn't really that bad (in comparison)
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Watered Garden
Actually, Bolshevik I think it was similar to what we experienced. LCM was louder and had less finesse, but he was the WC coordinator for years and helped train the limb leaders who did this to us.
After the first "advance" I would have left but I didn't want to admit to my parents I'd screwed up and entered a cult, and then there was the fascinating Mr. Garden - I did want to be around him.
WG
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Ham
Garth.. did you go through momentus? Just wonder..
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GarthP2000
Nope.
And if anyone is thinking of giving me the "well, how would you know what people go through when they 'snap'?" response, ... please don't. All I was doing was asking a question about 'snapping', and voicing what I thought was a flaw in the theory. (Just want to make sure)
And that's part of what free-thinking is all about folks.
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doojable
Here's a lot of info on Momentus:
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm
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Watered Garden
From the Messiah7 link Dooj provided above:
Momentus training appears to confuse:
+ psychological impact with spiritual transformation (they are related but not the same)
Psychological impact would cause "snapping." Spiritual transformation would not. (IMO only)
WG
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doojable
This quote is interestingly familiar:
from here:
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_mythof10.htm
Oh - and this:
I'll stop now. Waysider- I hope I didn't derail the thread.
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GarthP2000
Just curious. Why does Juedes stop there and not give the archive address? :unsure:
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Tzaia
Perhaps because nobody bothered to save the archives before the domains lapsed.
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Ham
and I didn't have an ulterior motive for asking.. just wanted to understand your mind friend.
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