I have to say that as much as I adore you, I had an entirely different reaction to the letter that you mentioned.
If you want to know what I have done with what I was taught.....I have to say that after 5 years following twi departure of allowing twi teachings to keep me imprisoned, keep me from speaking up ... the beliefs used as weapons and tools to imprison.... I started to reassess what I thought I knew...ten years later, I am a totally different person.
My family goes to a methodist bible study...my husband is still very arrogant in his knowledge, thinking that he is the wise one. He gets publications from off shoots, enjoys studying his bible and still thinks much as he did before.
Basically, as far as I personally am concerned, he is as wrong in his understanding, as he believes the folks at church are. I feel like it all boils down to only one thing...Love God and Love your neighbor.....if what you believe takes you there....then more power to you, whether that belief comes from scriptural study or the little country church up the road.
Jesus said that we would know one another by our fruit...I know where I see fruit and where I don`t.
That`s what I do, that`s what I believe post twi..... If I can make my little part of the planet a better place by helping an elderly neighbor with hay, or feeding her stock when she is sick...if I raise my kids to be blessings instead of burdens on society...if I feed that stray dog...if I can fix things for whoever or whatever crosses my paths...and can do all this without an agenda, or requiring something in return....I am living what I believe...and that certainly isn`t something that I ever learned , nor was inspired to do by the knowledge I aquired in twi :(
Maybe someday if I meet Jesus, he will look at me and say...when I was hungry ..you fed me, or when I was thirsty, you gave me to drink....now THAT would be cool :)
If you'd like to see what I've done with "What we were taught", it would neccessitate rummaging around in old disposable diapers, pop cans, and leaking garbage bags.
I'm not much of a fan of superstitious drivel anymore, especially the kind that is so agenda-driven. I echo the others in that it's good to see you back, but I don't share even a tinge of your apparent fondness for our WayWorld experience, anymore than I would wax nostalgic for my days of selling Amway products...
Heh - my stuff went into a landfill 23 years ago... What am I doing with "what we were taught?" Ignoring most of it. It is far far easier to simply be an honest and decent person than to toddle down the road of TWI and it's various uppity little offshoots.
If you'd like to see what I've done with "What we were taught", it would neccessitate rummaging around in old disposable diapers, pop cans, and leaking garbage bags.
wacky, since I have joined GSC and didn't remember any posts you have done, I'll answer that now I am ashamed that I ever got involved with TWI, PFAL, etc. My life might have been so different; marriage/master's degree in music/children. so TWI, etc Satanicly damned me for 6 years. Should have stayed Lutheran during that time and regret my association with the cult. Only if I could replay my youth and never heard of The Way International, oh I would have been so much happier. Sorry if this was not what you wanted to hear.
I cling to what I learned BECAUSE of getting involved with twi . some heavy lessons indeed that changed everyone in my family for life hopefully for eternity.
I still enjoy the bible and I am still searching to know who God is and learning to trust the Lord Jesus as my Saviour.
I pray. no I do not go to church. I do not know what my life would have been like without God and it was God almighty who has been my Father my entire life with many answered prayers and I think a good life.
I haven't been around Greasespot for a while, as I've been doing things with what I know...and busy/or not so busy as the days go by....
Hello to everyone...perhaps I'll see you in the chatroom sometime, as I am in a lull here before the summer months come to re-capture my time.
Anyways...I just read John Lynn's letter of June, 2008. I was just about in tears at the beauty of it...the twinges of pain it brought up in me still, even after being out of twi over 22 years already...
Well....I bought my first bible last month, after 22 years and felt like a child in a candy shop, I was sooo excited. I started going to a baptist woman's "bible" study group...oy vey....not only were those people confused, but, they couldn't come up with any conclusions by the end of the night. I watched patiently...and after 4 tries, decided to end going to the group, knowing I can just read and be blessed by the words of the bible on my own (and not in as much confusion as they because I know the basic principles).
I also recently ran into a family corps grad I haven't seen in over 22 years...and he spoke of being thankful for what twi taught him, nevertheless.
I have thought about what he said the past few weeks, and I think I agree...I am thankful for many of the things I learned in pfal and beyond, still use many principles...yada yada yada....but have learned to embrace others...regardless of anything they believe or the ways they chose to live.
So today, while perusing greasespot for some new tidbits of insight and comfort, I ran across JAL's (who I still adore) letter.
So, here's my question to all my old Greasespot friends....
.....What have you done since twi with what you know? (I'm sure we've all been through this on other threads over the years, perhaps even last year, but, I'm in this space recently, so would like to hear from you again.)
Well, Wacky Funster,
I read that letter, and my conclusions were different than yours.
Here's the letter, and then here's what I wrote.....
Here's John's latest advertisement to the GSC and anyone else....
=======================================
=======================================
The Way, It Was - June 2008 letter by John Lynn
In the interest of truth, both small “t” (the facts about The Way International) and capital “T” (the Word of God it taught), I am compelled to propose why I think The Way International was (past tense), from a certain perspective, one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church. I do so for the benefit of any graduate of the “Power For Abundant Living” class who still wants to live for the Lord and who may have been unduly discouraged, either by his/her own experience in The Way or by the ensuing barrage of negatives from other ex-Way saints about what was wrong with The Way.
Given that I was one of the top ministry leaders from 1967-1987, I speak with experiential knowledge. Furthermore, I have spent the past 21 years continuing to dig into the Word of God along with knowledgeable Christians, and, in the process, re-evaluating everything we were taught. I speak with great thankfulness for the truth I heard in The Way (hereinafter TWI), with no doubt that God led me to it, and then away from it. And though I left with some wounds, I also took with me the resources I had been given that enabled me to be healed from those wounds and help others do likewise.
I speak so that you can know “the rest of the story,” as opposed to all the disparaging things that have been said about The Way through the years by the media (much of that false), other Christians (much of that false), and disgruntled former followers (much of that true, some of it false). My purpose is to set forth a much more redemptive view of The Way than what I have thus far read from others with “ex-Way vision.” In some ways, this is a sequel to my March, 1988 letter in which I blew the whistle about what was then going on in TWI.
Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined. Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word. And as I realized these things, I did speak out about them, both publicly and privately, from 1987 until about 2000, after which TWI had marginalized itself in Christendom.
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered. I will elaborate upon why that is true from a doctrinal standpoint, but when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word? Certainly not often in the past 2000 years. Thank God that many of these students of the Word became teachers themselves, and were thus able to recognize the errors that crept into TWI.
The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard. Why? In large part because God led Victor Paul Wierwille to the work of E.W. Bullinger, whose approach to Scripture was virtually unique. That is what allowed Wierwille, and thus TWI to an even greater degree, thanks to the quality men and women with research ability whom it attracted, to put the Word together like it had not been known since the first century Church.
The sad thing was that I, and many others, became too proud of our knowledge, and failed to couple it with enough of a humble, heartfelt desire to obey God and become like Jesus Christ. We became too arrogant toward other Christians, thinking that our study of truth somehow made us more “approved before God” than they. To a degree, we became more like hearers of the Word than doers, and often deceived our selves. BUT, the antidote to that is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, because without knowledge of truth, there can be little practice of it.
Why did God have a need for The Way International? Actually, He didn’t. But He did have a need for any group of people who would make known what, or close to what, the Apostle Paul taught once the whole of what we now read in the Church Epistles had been unfolded to him. Why was there such a need? Because true Christian doctrine had all but disappeared from the spectrum of Church history by the 4th century. It was then that the Roman Catholic Church began based upon a bunch of fables mixed with Christian verbiage, established a monolithic ecclesiastical hierarchy, and for more than a thousand years dominated the European religious landscape, killing countless dissenters and for the most part silencing the rest.
When Martin Luther came along (1517 was when he nailed his 95 Theses on the church door at Wittenburg), thank God he did recognize justification by faith rather than by works, but what we today refer to as the "Reformation" of the Roman Catholic Church was very limited in scope. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell, that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a Trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, water baptism is relevant, and maybe even that the Bible is not absolute truth.
I don’t know where else we could have heard the “package” of biblical truth we heard in TWI. Admittedly, most of the major doctrinal components of that package were being taught by some Christians, with varying degrees of accuracy, but none that I know of put together as many into a package as TWI did. Let’s begin with what I mentioned about E.W. Bullinger’s contribution to TWI, which was HUGE, because his basic approach to Scripture is what facilitates one being able to discover its inherent keys and utilize them to derive the Author’s originally intended meaning.
TWI taught us to approach the Word with the “It is written” conviction that it is what it says it is, and that it cannot contradict itself. That alone is enough to at least identify error about the Bible, and the keys to the Word’s interpretation we were taught enabled us to understand it, take its truth into our hearts, and apply it on a daily basis.
Given that the identity of Jesus Christ is the world’s biggest deal, I would have to say that chief among the wonderful biblical truths we heard in TWI was that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (not God), the Man who mediates between God and men, and that the Trinity is a pagan fable. Some ex-Way saints now say this distinction is not that important, but I assert that God thinks differently, given what He says in His Word (e.g., 2 Cor. 4:3,4). Yes, TWI failed to teach us that we can have an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus, but there were not too many other places where we could have heard that Jesus is not the “eternally begotten” Second Person of the Trinity.
I’d have to say that the next most important biblical truth we heard in TWI was what we then called the “Mystery,” and, correspondingly, what parts of Scripture are written to Jews, to Gentiles, or to Christians regarding either the past, the present, or the future. For the record, we have since learned that “Sacred Secret” is a more accurate way of rendering the Greek, musterion.
Ephesians is the apex of the Church Epistles (the primary curriculum for Christian living), and it clearly shows that the Body of Christ (the “one new man” of Chapter 2, verse 15) is the most unique group of people who have ever lived, chiefly because of the permanence of our salvation and our holy spirit equipping. 1 Corinthians 2:8 chimes in with the monumental (and generally overlooked) truth that had Satan known the Sacred Secret, he would not have crucified Jesus!
In terms of biblical error that is practically debilitating to one’s quality of life,
I see nothing more important than knowing what Scripture is written to whom, when, and in particular what is written to us as Christians today. The Church’s failure to understand this central truth has led to its trying to live in accordance with directives pertaining to other people at other times. It is only in the Church Epistles that a Christian finds his true identity “in Christ,” as well as his true Hope. Simply put, the Word of God will never fit together without contradiction if one does not understand the “administrations” therein, and in particular this current “administration of the Sacred Secret” (Eph. 3:9).
Yes, there are quite a few Christians who have a “Dispensational” view of Scripture, but the vast majority of them fail to grasp that Jesus is not God and that he did not know the Sacred Secret. Most think that parts of the Four Gospels and of the Book of Revelation speak of the Christian Church, but that is not the case. The Gospels record the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies about Christ’s first coming to the earth to Israel (his suffering), and Revelation records the fulfillment of the prophecies about his second coming to the earth to Israel (his glory).
Another major truth we learned in TWI, which is unknown to most Christians, is that of the Giver and the gift, and, correspondingly, that speaking in tongues is available to all Christians because it is a manifestation of holy spirit, not a gift. We also learned the indispensable truth that speaking in tongues is the only absolute proof that one is saved. How many tens of thousands of people did those truths alone set free?
TWI also taught us that death is, in fact, the end of life, and that our true Hope for new life in the coming age is to be raised from the dead and meet the Lord Jesus in the air prior to the Tribulation (the “time of Jacob’s trouble” – Jer.30:7). What percentage of Christians do you think know this? Although TWI failed to teach us that Paradise (the new earth), not heaven, will be our everlasting home, thank God we learned that resurrection is much more than an incorporeal “soul” once again getting a body.
And TWI pointed us toward an understanding of the figures of speech in the Bible (thanks to Bullinger), of which little is known in theological circles. This included the figurative language in the Old Testament that helped us see that God is not responsible for evil or suffering, nor is He in control of everything that happens.
Like I, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, but I submit that until 1987 there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there. That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
As far as I can see, TWI was also about the most disparate dichotomy of good and evil in the history of Christianity. Like the wheat and the tares growing up together, tremendous truth and egregious evil shared the ministry platform. Many people look back on their TWI experience with nothing but thankfulness, while others rue their free will choice to stay involved as long as they did because of the abuse they suffered. Some have been stymied by self-condemnation due to the abuses they themselves committed. No doubt there are also many who recognize that they heard the Word like they never had, who have allowed the Lord Jesus to heal any wounds they suffered in TWI, and who have since experienced spiritual growth far beyond what they ever imagined back in “the good old days.”
I hope you are in that last category, and if you’re not, you can be. Even if people badly abused and disappointed you, you can turn to the Lord Jesus, he who is The Way to wholeness in all categories of heart and life. His love and truth will heal your heart and help you forgive and move forward with him toward the same goal you once had. You have a ministry in the Body of Christ, and he who is the Head longs to help you fulfill that calling. It was neither your heavenly Father nor your Lord who hurt you, nor does whatever happened to you change anything the Word says. God’s promises are still true, and they are yours for the believing.
The Way, we were. If you once sat through PFAL, you heard the Word of God taught more accurately than the vast majority of Christians who have ever drawn breath. As a fellow PFAL grad, I identify with you, and have an affinity for you and a desire to encourage you to take advantage of the truth you once heard, if you are not already doing so. Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
For a detailed list of biblical subjects I think TWI mishandled, click here.
If you would like to discuss with me about what I have written, please contact me at jalces@aol.com
Please check out what we are doing to keep the Word alive and moving all over the world:
www.STFonline.org and www.TruthOrTradition.com
Your brother in Christ,
John A. Lynn
=============================
=============================
[And, again, with WordWolf's replies.]
[Here's JAL's latest letter. Again, he's pretending it won't be seen and discussed at the GSC.
And that he's not trying to insult the posters at the GSC.]
The Way, It Was - June 2008 letter by John Lynn
In the interest of truth, both small “t” (the facts about The Way International) and capital “T” (the Word of God it taught), I am compelled to propose why I think The Way International was (past tense), from a certain perspective, one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church.
[Actually, twi was a SUBVERSION both of BG Leonard's ministry (having his materials so coldly stolen by vpw
was discouraging to Leonard, which is understandable) and a SUBVERSION of the Jesus People movement, since it had
them interest Christians in hearing- then swapped the Jesus People they were listening to (like H33fn3r and D**p)
for vpw and people he trained personally.
From that perspective, it HINDERED the Christian Church on two levels.
The one comfort is that, relatively speaking, the numbers of people who were affected (and some savaged) by twi were
miniscule. Across a 35 year period, less than 100,000 people took pfal worldwide. That's less than CURRENT numbers
of Christians in specific denominations in some major cities (including their metro areas.)]
I do so for the benefit of any graduate of the “Power For Abundant Living” class who still wants to live for the Lord and who may have been unduly discouraged, either by his/her own experience in The Way
[some were nearly destroyed by twi. A few WERE destroyed by twi. I think those who were will need more than a few slogans
to heal up, and they certainly are going to need counselors more competent than those whose claims to "trained" are
"I was trained in twi." They also will need approaches more compassionate and gentle than the 2 x 4 favored by Momentus grads
in general.]
or by the ensuing barrage of negatives from other ex-Way saints about what was wrong with The Way.
[That's one of those "barrages of negatives" JAL intends to refer to the GSC without saying the name. Naturally, he's never noticed
that some discussions have been neutral, others have been positive. From HIS perspective, the "negative" ones predominate, probably
because they interfere with him prostelytizing ex-twi. Hard to tell people vpw was a man to admire when all his felonies and disgusting
abuses of God's people are common knowledge.]
Given that I was one of the top ministry leaders from 1967-1987, I speak with experiential knowledge. Furthermore, I have spent the past 21 years continuing to dig into the Word of God along with knowledgeable Christians, and, in the process, re-evaluating everything we were taught. I speak with great thankfulness for the truth I heard in The Way (hereinafter TWI), with no doubt that God led me to it, and then away from it. And though I left with some wounds, I also took with me the resources I had been given that enabled me to be healed from those wounds and help others do likewise.
[Naturally, the methods for "healing" came from twi, the same twi that crushed Christians with dangerous doctrines and dangerous
practices...but the ones JAL wishes to retain are all 100% safe, of course.
Also of course, those who wish to be healed up from twi should go to JAL, and also retain most of the doctrines of the organization
they need healing from in the first place. To heal up elsewhere is NOT to be recommended.]
I speak so that you can know “the rest of the story,” as opposed to all the disparaging things that have been said about The Way through the years by the media (much of that false), other Christians (much of that false), and disgruntled former followers (much of that true, some of it false). My purpose is to set forth a much more redemptive view of The Way than what I have thus far read from others with “ex-Way vision.” In some ways, this is a sequel to my March, 1988 letter in which I blew the whistle about what was then going on in TWI.
[in short, if you want to know the truth of twi, you have to discard anything you heard at the GSC, and take your information
EXCLUSIVELY from JAL. All other former members, even former leaders, are not to be trusted. JAL's the SOLE exception,
and the only approach is a careful PRAISING of twi. Can't be a COMPLETE praising, since the conclusion has to be
"CES/STFI is the sole source of accurate Christianity", so praise must be qualified carefully.]
Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined. Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word.
[i'd go so far as to say that most ex-twi are STILL CHRISTIANS. They turned to God for healing, but they turned away from
twi and twi-style approaches. Of course, to those like JAL whose own "ex-Way vision" require he view EVERYTHING with the color-filters
provided by twi, to turn away from twi-style is to "turn away from God and His Word."
So, you can join CES/STFI, or you can be WRONG!]
And as I realized these things, I did speak out about them, both publicly and privately, from 1987 until about 2000, after which TWI had marginalized itself in Christendom.
[Of course, CES/STFI should NEVER be seen has having "marginalized itself in Christendom."
Not even if there's spiders coming from people's noses.]
Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered.
[After 20 years of supposed investigating,
JAL STILL labors under the thoroughly-discredited, and throughly-discredited- fiction penned by, and spread by, vpw that vpw
was some great one, and unique in 2000 years of Christians. We've discussed it so often here. JAL has missed it completely,
even though HE's supposed to be superior in understanding Scripture and wants us to come to HIM for understanding.
If he could FAIL so miserably at something so SIMPLE to investigate- and had 20 years to find the answer-
why would any of us (except the delusional) think he could be trusted in DEEPER matters of Scripture?
I will elaborate upon why that is true from a doctrinal standpoint, but when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?
[One is supposing that ALL of those are actually TRUE, and not just how we WISH to have seen ourselves. After all,
none of us WANTS to see ourselves as having wasted time, or learned harmful doctrines, or especially HURT OTHERS
with harmful doctrines. An approach that embraces truth would admit, however, that those things happened, and suggest
a wary approach about repeating the same errors as in one's youth.
JAL's approach is an approach that embraces his twi experience, however, and the results are markedly different.]
Certainly not often in the past 2000 years. Thank God that many of these students of the Word became teachers themselves, and were thus able to recognize the errors that crept into TWI.
[using JAL himself as an example, however, that was only PARTLY successful.
He addressed some errors as errors, retained other errors, and added new errors, and suppressed open discussion
of doctrines that became the new dangerous doctrines.
Since his group is the sole source of doctrine, and dangerous doctrines of theirs are to be embraced,
I agree that it operates as a sort-of successor to twi.]
The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard.
[JAL should get out more. He, apparently, has never even heard of BG Leonard, just to name ONE.
Is it stretching credibility to suppose that NOBODY ELSE taught accurately BESIDES Leonard?
I think it is. Leonard himself wasn't even acknowledged....]
Why? In large part because God led Victor Paul Wierwille to the work of E.W. Bullinger, whose approach to Scripture was virtually unique. That is what allowed Wierwille, and thus TWI to an even greater degree, thanks to the quality men and women with research ability whom it attracted, to put the Word together like it had not been known since the first century Church.
[vpw cut corners, and saw nothing wrong with plagiarizing the work of others rather than doing his own.
He insisted on using the title "Doctor" when the place he got it from was unaccredited, rather than going to a
reputable theological institute for his doctorate.
Until Rosal!nd R!nk3r told him the Bible was God's Word, he had been a practicing minister WHO DID NOT BELIEVE IT WAS SO, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION.
(Flip through your copy of "The Way:Living in Love.")
vpw claimed God spoke to him about God Almighty teaching him His Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century, if he would teach
it to others. For the next 11 years, vpw's ministry coasted and none of this "teaching" business happened, neither from God nor any
other source. Then, vpw was ministered to by Stiles, and vpw took the contents of Stiles' book, retyped it, and claimed it was his own book.
vpw pushed his way into BG Leonard's class (again, by his own admission), and then taught Leonard's class (with the same contents) as HIS OWN.
Plagiarism, and stealing the credit from others, are not unique.
To this, after someone told vpw that Bullinger wrote like vpw taught (which must mean Bullinger was like Leonard and Stiles), vpw then added
the complete works of Bullinger. Sometimes he gave Bullinger credit (like using "How to Enjoy the Bible") and sometimes he didn't
(like the entire contents of Bullinger's book on the Holy Spirit, which vpw claimed was his own work.)
Let us not forget that JAL's assuming that Bullinger's mechanized, systematic approach-which DID result in Bullinger making MISTAKES,
like the "kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God" mistake- is all correct, and what God wanted, that God wanted a scholarly approach to
be the exemplar for Christians, whereas we were told a man should be found "FAITHFUL", not "SCHOLARLY".
Finally, if Bullinger's approach was so exemplary, why, then, did vpw renumber Bullinger's "dispensations" into "administrations"
with a change that made them make LESS SENSE?
This whole "since the first century Church" thing was a fiction from vpw. That anyone is still pushing it is a sad statement
on behalf of the person pushing it. Has he truly never read through the book of Acts?
There was no "scholarship", no concern about translations from Hebrew to Greek, no intellectual teachings.
They had RELATIONSHIPS-with each other, with God. They were concerned with LIVES, with LOVE, and the only money collected was
to feed poor Christians. They were decentralized. They were inclusionary- Jesus said anyone who wasn't against him was
for him. twi's approaches were the opposite of those of the first-century Church.
Further, the entire claim is silly to those who've put in a little look into history.
The first-century Christian church did not have Gutenberg's printing press. Until the 2nd century, copies of the books of the
New Testament were nearly nonexistent. So "the Word like they knew it in the first century" was the TORAH, the OLD TESTAMENT-
and "The Word" as existed IN THEIR HEARTS, not ON THEIR PAGES.
Knowledge puffs up, and God's Love BUILDS up. THEY BUILT up. vpw PUFFED up.]
The sad thing was that I, and many others, became too proud of our knowledge, and failed to couple it with enough of a humble, heartfelt desire to obey God and become like Jesus Christ. We became too arrogant toward other Christians, thinking that our study of truth somehow made us more “approved before God” than they.
[HEY!
If you're still claiming you "knew the Word like it hasn't been known since the first-century Church",
YOU ARE STILL TOO PROUD OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE.
If you're still claiming OTHER Christians don't have it, but your group does,
YOU ARE STILL TOO ARROGANT TOWARD OTHER CHRISTIANS.]
To a degree, we became more like hearers of the Word than doers, and often deceived our selves. BUT, the antidote to that is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, because without knowledge of truth, there can be little practice of it.
[i noticed this unhealthy obsession with analogies whenever it's time to put all things to the test, and hold fast
to what is true. The problem here is, what is JAL's "baby" in his analogy? If I were to say this expression,
I might mean "truth" no matter what, I may mean "God's People", I may mean "God's Love."
It appears that JAL's "baby" is "an organization that teaches the Bible and is above being questioned"-
because that's what he's spent the last 20 years retaining.
He may TALK of "truth", but that's not his obsession...]
Why did God have a need for The Way International? Actually, He didn’t.
[i agree!
God is Almighty. He doesn't NEED any of us. He gives us the pleasure in sharing many tasks with us.
He didn't, and doesn't, NEED any group of people.]
But He did have a need for any group of people who would make known what, or close to what, the Apostle Paul taught once the whole of what we now read in the Church Epistles had been unfolded to him. Why was there such a need? Because true Christian doctrine had all but disappeared from the spectrum of Church history by the 4th century.
[JAL hasn't done ANY more reading on Church history beyond what's in "Jesus Christ is Not God", apparently.
Among MOST Christians, knowledge BEYOND this is considered EASY TO FIND.
There's even information on the internet-he wouldn't even need to go to a library or bookstore for some of it.
If it REALLY had all disappeared, there would have been nothing for us to find in the 20th century.]
It was then that the Roman Catholic Church began based upon a bunch of fables mixed with Christian verbiage, established a monolithic ecclesiastical hierarchy, and for more than a thousand years dominated the European religious landscape, killing countless dissenters and for the most part silencing the rest.
[We agree that establishing monolithic ecclesiastical hierarchies and suppressing dissenters is bad.
Why, then, does one of us embrace it when vpw does it?]
When Martin Luther came along (1517 was when he nailed his 95 Theses on the church door at Wittenburg), thank God he did recognize justification by faith rather than by works, but what we today refer to as the "Reformation" of the Roman Catholic Church was very limited in scope.
[if the doctrine-and the Scripture- was all obliterated in the 4th Century, why, then, was Luther able to FIND "justification by faith" at all?
If the Roman Catholic Church hadn't PRESERVED GOD'S WORD by having monks painstakingly hand-copy it in the centuries before
Gutenberg's printing press, there would have been nothing for Luther TO find. Once the printing press was invented, the stage was set for
an explosion of Bible reading, which resulted in an explosion of Bible discussion and understanding.]
Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell, that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a Trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, water baptism is relevant, and maybe even that the Bible is not absolute truth.
A) A lot of Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, no matter what their group teaches.
I've spoken to Catholics who do.
B) Lots of Christians believe the dead are dead.
C) God IS sovereign over all- but, as we know, things in the short-term are allowed to proceed without direct control by Him.
Many Christians have no problem understanding this, and there's books about why there's suffering.
D) That which was written before the Epistles was "for our learning". The Gospels address the time before Pentecost,
but are written TO Christians-the Gospels were written AFTER the Epistles. Don't confuse their order in the book with their
order of writing. Even vpw said Thessalonians was the first Epistle written, but the last one in the order in the book.
E) Many Christians consider water baptism to be a SYMBOL. Symbols ARE RELEVANT.
F) So-called "higher-criticism" is taught in some academic circles, but rarely in churches. I'm sure you can find a church
SOMEWHERE that teaches it, but most churches do NOT.
In the past 20 years, JAL hasn't learned that other Christians are not all uniformly a bunch of idiots. He's not gone beyond
the self-serving claims of vpw, who insisted that to leave his group was to leave any hope of knowing the truth.
In fact, JAL's promulgating that HIS group is now the sole source of truth on earth.]
I don’t know where else we could have heard the “package” of biblical truth we heard in TWI. Admittedly, most of the major doctrinal components of that package were being taught by some Christians, with varying degrees of accuracy, but none that I know of put together as many into a package as TWI did. Let’s begin with what I mentioned about E.W. Bullinger’s contribution to TWI, which was HUGE, because his basic approach to Scripture is what facilitates one being able to discover its inherent keys and utilize them to derive the Author’s originally intended meaning.
TWI taught us to approach the Word with the “It is written” conviction that it is what it says it is, and that it cannot contradict itself. That alone is enough to at least identify error about the Bible, and the keys to the Word’s interpretation we were taught enabled us to understand it, take its truth into our hearts, and apply it on a daily basis.
[And yet, supposed mastery of these principles provided NO protection from embracing Momentus as something EVERY Christian
should take, and the bizarre "personal prophecy" doctrine that was a major scandal in CES/STFI.
The supposed unenlightened Christians out there didn't make those mistakes....]
Given that the identity of Jesus Christ is the world’s biggest deal, I would have to say that chief among the wonderful biblical truths we heard in TWI was that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (not God), the Man who mediates between God and men, and that the Trinity is a pagan fable. Some ex-Way saints now say this distinction is not that important, but I assert that God thinks differently, given what He says in His Word (e.g., 2 Cor. 4:3,4).
[Must be why he spent whole chapters of Scripture explaining it in clear, unambiguous terms.
What? He didn't?
Then, he must surely have stated that salvation is dependent upon this.
What? He didn't?
Then, perhaps God doesn't think this distinction is that important.
I assert that matters that are critical, are made clear BY God, and don't require specialized study.
God gives light to the simple.]
Yes, TWI failed to teach us that we can have an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus, but there were not too many other places where we could have heard that Jesus is not the “eternally begotten” Second Person of the Trinity.
[There were a number, actually. If one is set on making that the doctrinal make-or-break.]
I’d have to say that the next most important biblical truth we heard in TWI was what we then called the “Mystery,” and, correspondingly, what parts of Scripture are written to Jews, to Gentiles, or to Christians regarding either the past, the present, or the future. For the record, we have since learned that “Sacred Secret” is a more accurate way of rendering the Greek, musterion.
Ephesians is the apex of the Church Epistles (the primary curriculum for Christian living), and it clearly shows that the Body of Christ (the “one new man” of Chapter 2, verse 15) is the most unique group of people who have ever lived, chiefly because of the permanence of our salvation and our holy spirit equipping. 1 Corinthians 2:8 chimes in with the monumental (and generally overlooked) truth that had Satan known the Sacred Secret, he would not have crucified Jesus!
[i reject the claim that any ONE Epistle is greater than the others. Romans explains the path of salvation.
Thessalonians explains the hope of Christ's return.
Without those subjects, Ephesians doesn't matter much.
Furthermore, since JAL took vpw's word that the Gospels are not written to Christians at all,
I question just how accurate OR useful the distinctions are between "to whom." Few Christians read the Old Testament and claim it's of equal
relevance to Christians as the New Testament-all of which was written after Pentecost, and is thus written TO us,
no matter what vpw said.]
In terms of biblical error that is practically debilitating to one’s quality of life,
I see nothing more important than knowing what Scripture is written to whom, when, and in particular what is written to us as Christians today. The Church’s failure to understand this central truth has led to its trying to live in accordance with directives pertaining to other people at other times. It is only in the Church Epistles that a Christian finds his true identity “in Christ,” as well as his true Hope. Simply put, the Word of God will never fit together without contradiction if one does not understand the “administrations” therein, and in particular this current “administration of the Sacred Secret” (Eph. 3:9).
Yes, there are quite a few Christians who have a “Dispensational” view of Scripture, but the vast majority of them fail to grasp that Jesus is not God and that he did not know the Sacred Secret.
[Nothing like making an arbitrary distinction between YOUR group and other Christians to define the
line between "us" and "them", and make "them" a bunch of idiots.]
Most think that parts of the Four Gospels and of the Book of Revelation speak of the Christian Church, but that is not the case. The Gospels record the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies about Christ’s first coming to the earth to Israel (his suffering), and Revelation records the fulfillment of the prophecies about his second coming to the earth to Israel (his glory).
[i haven't heard Christians claiming these errors JAL is claiming they do, and, apparently, I interact with them in a meaningful
way a LOT more than he does.]
Another major truth we learned in TWI, which is unknown to most Christians, is that of the Giver and the gift, and, correspondingly, that speaking in tongues is available to all Christians because it is a manifestation of holy spirit, not a gift. We also learned the indispensable truth that speaking in tongues is the only absolute proof that one is saved. How many tens of thousands of people did those truths alone set free?
[if that was the make-or-break, surely God Almighty is not so impotent that all the Christians between 99AD and 1941
would have been left in darkness, and nearly all those in the 20th century likewise.
As for the manifestation of holy spirit, there's a spectrum of Christian beliefs concerning this.
"Charismatic" Christians put this into practice to varying degrees.
Also, it's obvious Stiles and Leonard understood this subject better than vpw, if you bother to look into them.]
TWI also taught us that death is, in fact, the end of life, and that our true Hope for new life in the coming age is to be raised from the dead and meet the Lord Jesus in the air prior to the Tribulation (the “time of Jacob’s trouble” – Jer.30:7). What percentage of Christians do you think know this?
[More than 1%, certainly, which would not be the case if it was a twi exclusive.
twi's taught this one, and the non-Trinity, to a tiny fraction of people in comparison to, say, who the Watchtower Society has taught either.]
Although TWI failed to teach us that Paradise (the new earth), not heaven, will be our everlasting home, thank God we learned that resurrection is much more than an incorporeal “soul” once again getting a body.
And TWI pointed us toward an understanding of the figures of speech in the Bible (thanks to Bullinger), of which little is known in theological circles.
[Depends on the figure of speech. Most common figures are evident to a casual read-simile, metaphor....]
This included the figurative language in the Old Testament that helped us see that God is not responsible for evil or suffering, nor is He in control of everything that happens.
[Yet God is sovereign, which IS the main point.]
Like I, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, but I submit that until 1987 there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there. That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement.
[Perhaps.
On the other hand, where else outside of twi would you have found a supposed Christian organization where its founder claimed
to have heard from God when he didn't, where he funnelled the money for his creature comforts and his vices,
where the progress of genuine Christians (Leonard, the Jesus People) was STRANGLED to strengthen the organization,
where its founder required leadership candidates to write a biography which was then used to help select which of them
he was going to rape or molest, or where he implied all his doctrines came directly from God while some of them
came from conspiracy/rumor mills? All while claiming everyone else walked in error?
In all this, The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly corrupted Christian movement.
It takes a backseat to the Branch Davidians, but it also damaged more people than Koresh's group did.
Harsh? Well, you were the one who wanted to compare twi to other Christians...
I think few Christians would be willing to accept a group doing that to anyone in exchange for a greater understanding
of the Bible- presuming twi had a greater understanding of the Bible. And most Christians love God and would accept
knowing Him better. I think they consider God's Love more important than God's Knowledge.
I think they're right, too.]
As far as I can see, TWI was also about the most disparate dichotomy of good and evil in the history of Christianity. Like the wheat and the tares growing up together, tremendous truth and egregious evil shared the ministry platform.
[i agree about the "egregious evil."
I assert that the "tremendous truth" position was largely a matter of "believing one's own press releases", and that this was
an unrealistic position, relying only on the constant repetition in twi that it contained "tremendous truth."
Many FELT like they had "tremendous truth." I certainly did- but I was young and naive. I have learned things in the
past 20 years about God Almighty and about my fellow Christians, and I feel no need to attempt to
"continue to wear the footsie pajamas" of twi doctrine when I can "put on the jacket-and-tie" of God's Love
and mature Christianity.)
(Hey, if JAL can make silly analogies about bathtubs and plates of food, I can make ones about wardrobe.)]
Many people look back on their TWI experience with nothing but thankfulness, while others rue their free will choice to stay involved as long as they did because of the abuse they suffered. Some have been stymied by self-condemnation due to the abuses they themselves committed.
[And some live in utter denial that they inadvertently took part in things that hurt others,
and some KNOW they did INTENTIONALLY and refuse to face it.]
No doubt there are also many who recognize that they heard the Word like they never had, who have allowed the Lord Jesus to heal any wounds they suffered in TWI, and who have since experienced spiritual growth far beyond what they ever imagined back in “the good old days.”
[And many more recognize that vpw and twi was overblown and didn't match its hype, but think we learned SOME accurate
things, went on to Jesus healing us, maturing in our understanding, and grew once we were free of the mental straitjacket
of the twi paradigm. Many of us who can say that have posted, or currently post, at the GSC.]
I hope you are in that last category, and if you’re not, you can be. Even if people badly abused and disappointed you, you can turn to the Lord Jesus, he who is The Way to wholeness in all categories of heart and life. His love and truth will heal your heart and help you forgive and move forward with him toward the same goal you once had. You have a ministry in the Body of Christ, and he who is the Head longs to help you fulfill that calling. It was neither your heavenly Father nor your Lord who hurt you, nor does whatever happened to you change anything the Word says. God’s promises are still true, and they are yours for the believing.
The Way, we were. If you once sat through PFAL, you heard the Word of God taught more accurately than the vast majority of Christians who have ever drawn breath.
[if you keep telling yourself that over and over, and hide from all the evidence otherwise,
you can spend the rest of your life believing that piece of fiction, that rural myth.
If you can't live without embracing a lie, it's not that unbearable.
Many of us would rather suffer the consequences of seeing and accepting the unvarnished truth,
no matter how ugly the truth is, and no matter how pretty the lies are.
Take your pick.]
As a fellow PFAL grad, I identify with you, and have an affinity for you and a desire to encourage you to take advantage of the truth you once heard, if you are not already doing so. Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?”
[Jesus' question will be dependent upon our intellectual knowledge?
Chapter and verse, please.]
For a detailed list of biblical subjects I think TWI mishandled, click here.
If you would like to discuss with me about what I have written, please contact me at jalces@aol.com
[Lest we forget, here's the commercial one last time....]
Please check out what we are doing to keep the Word alive and moving all over the world:
Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined. Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word.
Ya know...I was a CWOW, and was in Western Mass. and we had a grand ole time....I think, overall, I had a way different experience than what I have read here over the years (yet I understand others experiences and how they could have occurred). I only lagered heads with the local campus Christians...but, I think, overall, we tried to walk the walk...I know my experience was unique, but my local leadership weren't as "crooked", but truly tried to walk the walk...people were giving....and in my overall recollection, I was ok with it....until I went in the Way Corps, and THAT WAS A RUDE AWAKENING OF CORRUPTION!!!!
After that I couldn't wait to get out...but I do miss the good days we all had...and I am still shocked at how the world lives.
Well, my husband and I started attending a regular church right after we left, and made the mistake of talking about the trinity, so we went to various fellowships. We tried CES's fellowship until attending Momentus became the litmus test for being spiritually mature. Momentus created a culture that was very similar to being around arrogant corps members, and we wanted no part of it. We continued to be partners while starting to attend another church. Gradually I came to realize that TWI's teachings focused on small, inconsequential differences in interpretation that did nothing besides create divisiveness in the body, and CES had picked up TWI's propensity for that.
Since 2004 I've visited the Middle East 3 times and spent a considerable amount of time studying early Christian history, lost Christianities, how and why the canon of biblical text came about, and other belief systems. I have come to believe that VPW, or anyone else who touts TWI as teaching the word as it has not been heard since the first century has no idea what s(he) is talking about. I have come to believe that every premise that was used to support the concepts in PFAL were faulty premises. I believe that the touted "correct" doctrine was not. I believe that while people were told that TWI thinking would set them free, that, in fact, it was nothing more than another form of bondage. It appears that the deeper the level of involvement that was supposed to bring spiritual maturity was nothing more than a systematic breakdown of critical thinking skills, and that every splinter's leadership continues to lack the necessary critical thinking skills that would help them to discern sh!t from shine-ola.
JAL was definitely trying to pull on people's heart strings of what he believes were the glory days of TWI. I would agree that there were moments of true synergy, but I believe that much of the "glory" was as manufactured as the manifestations.
While sometimes it didn't seem like a good idea at the time, I am so thankful that I resisted the pressure to do more and get more deeply involved. I believe doing so has created fewer regrets.
So after carefully considering everything I thought I knew from TWI, I have pretty much dismissed it as garbage.
I met some great people, my spouse one of them, whom I don`t always think is so great.....lol
I loved who we thought we were, the nobility of the cause that we thought we were fighting for. I loved traveling and feeling like I had instant family and friends where ever I stopped.
I found that I had to start all over again from square one because what I thought that I knew was so questionable. It is cool, I am at a good place now.
One of the hardest things about leaving TWI was letting go of the tremedous spiritual arrogance. Rascal has mentioned this, and I agree with her.
But it wasn't just spiritual. There was also a racial arrogance, and a straight arrogance, and a pecking-order-among-the-members arrogance. We spent a lot of time patting ourselves on the back for being God's Chosen, while saying "but look how screwed up THOSE people OVER THERE are." During my time with TWI, I could not even step into a regular church without thinking that it was full of devil spirits.
That's pretty much the opposite of building the body of Christ.
It seems like the crazier it got, the more we bought into it. Perhaps that is the greatest warning lesson, as we look back. It's a study in group psychology. The people who perpetrated the Holocaust thought that they were doing the world a favor. If Wierwille could have lived forever, how deeply into the cesspool might some of us be right now?
OK..I get it, twi was corrupt...but didn't anyone glean from any of the spiritual principles from the bible to carry on and walk softly upon this earth as Christ did?
I think it's been very hard...earthlings are quite odd...but I am thankful for the little tidbits that I know and have applied to graffle along. If it hadn't been for pfal, I doubt if I would have learned some of them in a concise way for me to carry on over these years in time.
Doesn't God/Goddess answer your prayers? Has your bliss manifested in your life yet?
I consider the teachings/practices/behaviors/habits of twi that've been ingrained in my life and mind to be a curse. It takes a lot of work to remove just one.
The fact that even one person was raped by the founder, not to mention the suicides because of the founder, directly or indirectly, even though those things didn't happen to me or anyone I personally knew at the time, those actions totally negate the whole thing, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Those specific things falsify any wholeness, or goodness, even if on the surface the organization appears beneficial. It puts everything about the founder and the organization into a carnal state, bereft of godliness and any relationship to God almightly who is good and who does not dwell with evil.
It is hard to condone our past with cheerful reminiscings when there are those who were devisated by the head man and the people of the oragnizarion.
I can't argue with the scripture, a little leaventh.....I won't shutt my eyes to what really happened....
For me, Twinky and Now I see said it best. . . funny though, instead of asking me what I was going to do with what I learned in TWI. . . Jesus asked me another question when I left.
"Who do you say I am?"
If No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
What was all the great knowledge we had about an incomprehensible God in TWI?
How many were crucified? What we did know was given to us by carnal men with eyes full of lust and greed. False teachers. Not likely they had the inside track.
Darkness to the intellect
But sunshine to the heart.
Frederick W. Faber
2 Corinthians 3:16 says. . . But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
I had a veil over my eyes in TWI. . . IMHO many of us never truly turned to the Lord in TWI. . their theology made it near impossible. The "absent Christ" and all that.
As for JAL. . . my mama said. . . if you can't say something nice about someone. . . .
OK..I get it, twi was corrupt...but didn't anyone glean from any of the spiritual principles from the bible to carry on and walk softly upon this earth as Christ did?
I think it's been very hard...earthlings are quite odd...but I am thankful for the little tidbits that I know and have applied to graffle along. If it hadn't been for pfal, I doubt if I would have learned some of them in a concise way for me to carry on over these years in time.
Doesn't God/Goddess answer your prayers? Has your bliss manifested in your life yet?
any spiritual principles from the bible I even half way value I never learned in twi..
if people value it..
Christ made his "bed" in hell. Didn't "renew his mind" out of it, or some such nonsense.. One of the psalms says something like.. if I make my bed in hell, thou (God) art there..
in twi, all that was in the "opposition" was the devil..
I let go of what I learned in twi and I'm currently rooting out the biased thinking that grew because I followed them and their twisted world-view.
I can't think of anything I learned because of twi that I care much for.
I was already conscious of good and evil.
I was already on a quest to learn more about the bible. I would have learned what's still useful to me regardless of twi, which is familiarity with scripture.
twi just sidetracked me into a narrow-minded way of life that I'm glad I've left behind.
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waysider
Most of the "Bible Stuff" turned out to be poorly researched and highly flawed.
(ie: 4 crucified, the cry of triumph, throughly/thoroughly, SIT-- and on and on.)
So what did we really "know" in the first place?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wacky!...Long time no see.
I have to agree with waysider...but it's very nice to see you posting again.
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rascal
Great to see you again Wacky :)
I have to say that as much as I adore you, I had an entirely different reaction to the letter that you mentioned.
If you want to know what I have done with what I was taught.....I have to say that after 5 years following twi departure of allowing twi teachings to keep me imprisoned, keep me from speaking up ... the beliefs used as weapons and tools to imprison.... I started to reassess what I thought I knew...ten years later, I am a totally different person.
My family goes to a methodist bible study...my husband is still very arrogant in his knowledge, thinking that he is the wise one. He gets publications from off shoots, enjoys studying his bible and still thinks much as he did before.
Basically, as far as I personally am concerned, he is as wrong in his understanding, as he believes the folks at church are. I feel like it all boils down to only one thing...Love God and Love your neighbor.....if what you believe takes you there....then more power to you, whether that belief comes from scriptural study or the little country church up the road.
Jesus said that we would know one another by our fruit...I know where I see fruit and where I don`t.
That`s what I do, that`s what I believe post twi..... If I can make my little part of the planet a better place by helping an elderly neighbor with hay, or feeding her stock when she is sick...if I raise my kids to be blessings instead of burdens on society...if I feed that stray dog...if I can fix things for whoever or whatever crosses my paths...and can do all this without an agenda, or requiring something in return....I am living what I believe...and that certainly isn`t something that I ever learned , nor was inspired to do by the knowledge I aquired in twi :(
Maybe someday if I meet Jesus, he will look at me and say...when I was hungry ..you fed me, or when I was thirsty, you gave me to drink....now THAT would be cool :)
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George Aar
If you'd like to see what I've done with "What we were taught", it would neccessitate rummaging around in old disposable diapers, pop cans, and leaking garbage bags.
I'm not much of a fan of superstitious drivel anymore, especially the kind that is so agenda-driven. I echo the others in that it's good to see you back, but I don't share even a tinge of your apparent fondness for our WayWorld experience, anymore than I would wax nostalgic for my days of selling Amway products...
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RumRunner
Heh - my stuff went into a landfill 23 years ago... What am I doing with "what we were taught?" Ignoring most of it. It is far far easier to simply be an honest and decent person than to toddle down the road of TWI and it's various uppity little offshoots.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
wacky, since I have joined GSC and didn't remember any posts you have done, I'll answer that now I am ashamed that I ever got involved with TWI, PFAL, etc. My life might have been so different; marriage/master's degree in music/children. so TWI, etc Satanicly damned me for 6 years. Should have stayed Lutheran during that time and regret my association with the cult. Only if I could replay my youth and never heard of The Way International, oh I would have been so much happier. Sorry if this was not what you wanted to hear.
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pond
My life also would have been VASTLY different.
But the past is the past. I cant change it now.
I cling to what I learned BECAUSE of getting involved with twi . some heavy lessons indeed that changed everyone in my family for life hopefully for eternity.
I still enjoy the bible and I am still searching to know who God is and learning to trust the Lord Jesus as my Saviour.
I pray. no I do not go to church. I do not know what my life would have been like without God and it was God almighty who has been my Father my entire life with many answered prayers and I think a good life.
May God bless you and keep you Wacky
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WordWolf
Well, Wacky Funster,
I read that letter, and my conclusions were different than yours.
Here's the letter, and then here's what I wrote.....
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WordWolf
We had more than 1 thread discussing the letter.
The better thread is here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=17664
"The Way, It Was."
(Not to be confused with the similarly titled, shorter thread
on the same subject.)
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skyrider
After John Lynn said this:
Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined. Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word.
......he confirmed The Way It Was.
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Wacky Funster
Whew!!! Okay...that was very long....
Ya know...I was a CWOW, and was in Western Mass. and we had a grand ole time....I think, overall, I had a way different experience than what I have read here over the years (yet I understand others experiences and how they could have occurred). I only lagered heads with the local campus Christians...but, I think, overall, we tried to walk the walk...I know my experience was unique, but my local leadership weren't as "crooked", but truly tried to walk the walk...people were giving....and in my overall recollection, I was ok with it....until I went in the Way Corps, and THAT WAS A RUDE AWAKENING OF CORRUPTION!!!!
After that I couldn't wait to get out...but I do miss the good days we all had...and I am still shocked at how the world lives.
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Tzaia
Well, my husband and I started attending a regular church right after we left, and made the mistake of talking about the trinity, so we went to various fellowships. We tried CES's fellowship until attending Momentus became the litmus test for being spiritually mature. Momentus created a culture that was very similar to being around arrogant corps members, and we wanted no part of it. We continued to be partners while starting to attend another church. Gradually I came to realize that TWI's teachings focused on small, inconsequential differences in interpretation that did nothing besides create divisiveness in the body, and CES had picked up TWI's propensity for that.
Since 2004 I've visited the Middle East 3 times and spent a considerable amount of time studying early Christian history, lost Christianities, how and why the canon of biblical text came about, and other belief systems. I have come to believe that VPW, or anyone else who touts TWI as teaching the word as it has not been heard since the first century has no idea what s(he) is talking about. I have come to believe that every premise that was used to support the concepts in PFAL were faulty premises. I believe that the touted "correct" doctrine was not. I believe that while people were told that TWI thinking would set them free, that, in fact, it was nothing more than another form of bondage. It appears that the deeper the level of involvement that was supposed to bring spiritual maturity was nothing more than a systematic breakdown of critical thinking skills, and that every splinter's leadership continues to lack the necessary critical thinking skills that would help them to discern sh!t from shine-ola.
JAL was definitely trying to pull on people's heart strings of what he believes were the glory days of TWI. I would agree that there were moments of true synergy, but I believe that much of the "glory" was as manufactured as the manifestations.
While sometimes it didn't seem like a good idea at the time, I am so thankful that I resisted the pressure to do more and get more deeply involved. I believe doing so has created fewer regrets.
So after carefully considering everything I thought I knew from TWI, I have pretty much dismissed it as garbage.
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rascal
(((Wacky)))
I met some great people, my spouse one of them, whom I don`t always think is so great.....lol
I loved who we thought we were, the nobility of the cause that we thought we were fighting for. I loved traveling and feeling like I had instant family and friends where ever I stopped.
I found that I had to start all over again from square one because what I thought that I knew was so questionable. It is cool, I am at a good place now.
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notinKansasanymore
One of the hardest things about leaving TWI was letting go of the tremedous spiritual arrogance. Rascal has mentioned this, and I agree with her.
But it wasn't just spiritual. There was also a racial arrogance, and a straight arrogance, and a pecking-order-among-the-members arrogance. We spent a lot of time patting ourselves on the back for being God's Chosen, while saying "but look how screwed up THOSE people OVER THERE are." During my time with TWI, I could not even step into a regular church without thinking that it was full of devil spirits.
That's pretty much the opposite of building the body of Christ.
It seems like the crazier it got, the more we bought into it. Perhaps that is the greatest warning lesson, as we look back. It's a study in group psychology. The people who perpetrated the Holocaust thought that they were doing the world a favor. If Wierwille could have lived forever, how deeply into the cesspool might some of us be right now?
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Wacky Funster
OK..I get it, twi was corrupt...but didn't anyone glean from any of the spiritual principles from the bible to carry on and walk softly upon this earth as Christ did?
I think it's been very hard...earthlings are quite odd...but I am thankful for the little tidbits that I know and have applied to graffle along. If it hadn't been for pfal, I doubt if I would have learned some of them in a concise way for me to carry on over these years in time.
Doesn't God/Goddess answer your prayers? Has your bliss manifested in your life yet?
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Bolshevik
I consider the teachings/practices/behaviors/habits of twi that've been ingrained in my life and mind to be a curse. It takes a lot of work to remove just one.
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Twinky
What I know is more than what TWI taught. I knew stuff before, I learned some stuff there, and I have learned a lot since.
What I am doing with what I know is:
I read less, but ponder more on what I do know. I enjoy the delicious "fruit of the spirit" listed in Galatians 5.
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Wacky Funster
Funny...I find myself getting more judgmental...or is it growing older and hence less tolerant? I have become very very picky!!!!
Sounds great to me, twinky...
B...I am feeling so sad for what you said....peace to you....
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now I see
The fact that even one person was raped by the founder, not to mention the suicides because of the founder, directly or indirectly, even though those things didn't happen to me or anyone I personally knew at the time, those actions totally negate the whole thing, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Those specific things falsify any wholeness, or goodness, even if on the surface the organization appears beneficial. It puts everything about the founder and the organization into a carnal state, bereft of godliness and any relationship to God almightly who is good and who does not dwell with evil.
It is hard to condone our past with cheerful reminiscings when there are those who were devisated by the head man and the people of the oragnizarion.
I can't argue with the scripture, a little leaventh.....I won't shutt my eyes to what really happened....
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waysider
I personally knew two people who died as a direct result of TWI's erroneous teachings.
These are not people I knew "of". These are people I knew.
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Twinky
Oh yes, and something else I do with what I know...
Because I know more than just scriptures.
It's not the scriptures that are wrong, it's the interpretation that may have been given.
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geisha779
Wacky Funster,
What a GREAT name!! I love it!
For me, Twinky and Now I see said it best. . . funny though, instead of asking me what I was going to do with what I learned in TWI. . . Jesus asked me another question when I left.
"Who do you say I am?"
If No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
What was all the great knowledge we had about an incomprehensible God in TWI?
How many were crucified? What we did know was given to us by carnal men with eyes full of lust and greed. False teachers. Not likely they had the inside track.
Darkness to the intellect
But sunshine to the heart.
Frederick W. Faber
2 Corinthians 3:16 says. . . But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
I had a veil over my eyes in TWI. . . IMHO many of us never truly turned to the Lord in TWI. . their theology made it near impossible. The "absent Christ" and all that.
As for JAL. . . my mama said. . . if you can't say something nice about someone. . . .
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Ham
any spiritual principles from the bible I even half way value I never learned in twi..
if people value it..
Christ made his "bed" in hell. Didn't "renew his mind" out of it, or some such nonsense.. One of the psalms says something like.. if I make my bed in hell, thou (God) art there..
in twi, all that was in the "opposition" was the devil..
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potato
I let go of what I learned in twi and I'm currently rooting out the biased thinking that grew because I followed them and their twisted world-view.
I can't think of anything I learned because of twi that I care much for.
I was already conscious of good and evil.
I was already on a quest to learn more about the bible. I would have learned what's still useful to me regardless of twi, which is familiarity with scripture.
twi just sidetracked me into a narrow-minded way of life that I'm glad I've left behind.
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