This sounds so good and I imagine it is moist as well. I am curious, the apple bread has a topping. . . did you use this?
Also, I love the idea of lemon instead of buttermilk. What I do is add a cap of vinegar to 2% milk. . . my own little lazy buttermilk. It works. Lemon is easier.
I was making 2 banana breads or apple breads a week. My son and friends were always asking for cookies, cakes, breads or whatever. Now, the house is fairly quiet and I am not baking as much. But, the friends are still coming and staying over even though my son is in Chicago. Just not as often.
I will try this combo. Really creative BTW. What a great idea. If you get a chance, you should post it on a recipe board.
Thanks for the new recipe. I will let you know how it turns out.
Hey, Geisha, yes it is moist, and no I didn't add the topping only because I love the way the top crust of banana bread becomes so sweet and moist, it's one of the best things about banana bread, so I didn't want to deprive everyone from enjoying that aspect of it! I do think the topping is utterly fantastic, but I didn't want to give up the bread top, kinda like a muffin top thing. :)
Geisha, you must have the neighborhood house where all the kids like to hang out! I hear ya about the amount of food kids can consume, when the kids are gone, there's a whole lot less activity in the kitchen. Good luck with the new recipe, it should be a cinch since it's really your recipe! If you like lots of apples use 1 cup, if you'd like them a little more sparse, use 1/2 cup of chopped apples, they make a good contrast to the bananas in flavor and texture.
now I see, thank you so much for posting the links for making butter. Now folks know how simple and sooooo much cheaper it is to make our own right at home. As far as flavor and taste are concerned, there is no comparison between the store bought and homemade.
The health food store was once out of yogurt so I bought and used sour cream. I drained the liquid before using. A teenie bit different consistency (probably me) but it was just as good.
Do you make your own mayonnaise? We could talk some mayonnaise, honey.
Mayonnaise is fairly easy to make although it only keeps a few days in the fridge. Plenty of recipes on line - just google mayonnaise recipes. I don't make it often because we are just not big mayonnaise eaters here - however home made mayonnaise will guarantee you never buy it in a store again.
Yogurt is also easy to make and a yogurt maker is not an expensive proposition. I always make it "plain" and let my children add what they want (usually fruit or honey) when it is served. Making it plain makes for easy additions to recipes - and BTW it won't taste anything like store bought yogurt.
now I see, thank you so much for posting the links for making butter. Now folks know how simple and sooooo much cheaper it is to make our own right at home. As far as flavor and taste are concerned, there is no comparison between the store bought and homemade.
The health food store was once out of yogurt so I bought and used sour cream. I drained the liquid before using. A teenie bit different consistency (probably me) but it was just as good.
Do you make your own mayonnaise? We could talk some mayonnaise, honey.
I've tried making mayo before, and it hasn't really turned out that well, and the last time I tried making yogurt, without a yogurt maker, some weird bacteria got in there and it took way longer than it was supposed to to set up, and gave me a stomach ache too! I think I missed it somewhere along the line with the technique...
What a great thread! I've just made bread for tomorrow's dinner of tomato veggy soup. Fresh butter would be wonderful. I have chives growing in the garden mmm mmm! Now to check on how much cream I have. Devon cream is supposed to be one of the best.
now I see, this is the recipe that I use at home and teach in my classes.
Makes about 32 ounces
3 large pasteurized egg yolks
24 fl oz of vegetable oil
1 to 2 fl oz white vinegar or lemon juice
1 fl oz water
Whisk the yolks and a bit of the water together. Whisk until eggs are very loose.
Add the vinegar or lemon juice.
Pour the oil into the egg mixture whisking constantly. The oil MUST be added in a thin stream, particularly in the beginning.
If mayonnaise becomes too thick while incorporating oil then add droplets of water. Yes, this is one instance where water and oil do mix!! If mixture becomes too thick and you do not add water then the remainder of the oil will not be absorbed.
I am one of those that likes a mayo that stands up on its own. So mine is more jiggly than creamy. I lay off of the water a little bit.
Now, if you want a nuttier tasting mayo, maybe used for dipping, use all peanut or extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. Or use half nut oil and half vegetable.
That is almost identical to what I have used - however I am lazy and discovered that if you use a blender on LOW <==== LOW then it works every bit as well as hand whisking - I actually just pulse the blender for more control. Using the blender also frees a hand so you have more control when slowly adding the oil. And here here for extra virgin olive oil!
BTW you can use the same blender technique for a perfectly adequate Hollandaise sauce - although since the yolks cook slightly with the hot butter you end up with a heck of a clean up job.
now I see, this is the recipe that I use at home and teach in my classes.
Makes about 32 ounces
3 large pasteurized egg yolks
24 fl oz of vegetable oil
1 to 2 fl oz white vinegar or lemon juice
1 fl oz water
Whisk the yolks and a bit of the water together. Whisk until eggs are very loose.
...snip...for brevity
Now, if you want a nuttier tasting mayo, maybe used for dipping, use all peanut or extra virgin cold pressed olive oil.
I used to put all the ingredients in a tall Pyrex cup and use an immersion blender to whip it all together. For some reason the immersion blender eliminated the need to drizzle the oil in slowly.
I added a pinch of mustard powder to the ingredients already posted.
RumRunner, I am lazy in the area of washing equipment pieces. I would rather work up a sweat whisking than washing dishes. Ain't that crazy.
To keep the eggs from cooking make sure the temperature of your liquid is no higher than 145 degrees. Once the eggs have tripled in volume remove pan from heat and place on a damp towel. Add the melted butter in a thin stream whisking the entire time. Tempering also works.
Great recipes, I will try each method and see what I like best, I have a question Kimberly, are those dried herbs in your Green Goddess dressing or fresh?
Does anyone have a no fail recipe for homemade yogurt without an actual yogurt maker?
Thanks!! Good link Waysider, I'd never thought of a cooler, it's brilliant, I also never sterilzed the jars before, so that is probably one reason my last batch turned out bad. I'm also extreemly BPA in plastics conscious, so I probably would use glass over plastic containers to make the yogurt.
I've had brandied cherries before, both the cherries and the brandied liquid were sooo good!
now I see, they are fresh herbs. Mince, mince, mince.
Did somebody say BPA's as in plastics?????
Thanks for the opening to get me going.
Two years ago I was teaching a class and we were talking about cooking surfaces. Don't even get me going on "non-stick" surfaces. Somebody mentioned Sheryl Crowe and her claiming drinking from plastic water bottles was responsible for her cancer. The student said he didn't believe it. Another student spoke up and said she was a cancer survivor. She said was told by our local American Cancer Society not to heat and eat anything in plastic as this increased a womans risk of breast cancer.
I had to find out for myself. I called them the next day and they verified this.
Anybody heard of Melamine? Yeh, I think so. Just because it is not being added to our food why would we want to eat from dishes made of this?
I've replaced plastic storage containers, kids plastic plates, bowls, cups, sports bottles, travel cups, kitchen utensils, tupperware, and 5 gallon water jug bottles, all swapped for stainless steel, or glass, or non bpa plastic. Also blender jugs and food processor clear plastic containers have high probability of containing bpa's.
You're now not supposed to heat any plastic or nuke plastics, or put hot foods on plastic, and check plastic drinking water container's numbers on the bottom to make sure they aren't made with the bad numbered plastic.
I already got rid of teflon pans in favor of stainless steel, anodized aluminum, and enameled cast iron. There are new studies that show too much iron built up in your system accellerates cancer growth especially in men over 30 and women over 50, so cast iron pans should be used on a limited basis.
Studies show bpa's in plastics and chemicals in nalgene bottles can leach estrogen imitating chemicals into food and drink and cause children to go into puberty early, and cause breast cancer in men and women. Baby bottles especially should not be made with plastic and pacifiers should be checked for bpa's. In fact its suggested that all bpa vinyls and plastics should be limited in our home environments, buildings and furnishings too. Almost all canned foods have bpa plastic liners...
Melamine like plastic also leaches chemicals if its scratched or heated, there are kitchen utensils, plates, bowls serving platters etc which are made out of melamine too.
Good old fashioned glass and stainless steel like our mothers used is apparently the wiser choice.
Thanks now I see and waysider. now I see, when you mentioned the estrogen thing that triggered my memory of what my student explained and the local ACS affirmed! The chemical reaction that takes place in heated plastic imitates estrogen.
About cast iron. I grew up in a home where we used only cast iron. My grandparents used only cast iron. I use cast iron almost exclusively and a couple of stainless steel pieces made by All-Clad. The thing about that is tricky. If you use cast iron take no vitamins with iron. If you cook one item a day in cast iron you get all the iron you need. Folks eat so much fake stuff in their diet it prohibits and/or impedes the proper absorption and working of iron. Less active folks need less iron. Then sometimes less active folks need more iron to get them up and going. Depends on diet.
Well, I used plastic dishes with my kids, and used bpa leaching 5 gallon water bottles for my water before I found out about bpa too. But since my family is prone to certain cancers I tend to be more conscious of carcinogins I can controll.
The thing the studies are pointing to is that the body retains iron and excess iron encourages cancel cell growth. Post menopausal women don't need as much iron as before, males over thirty five don't require as much either, most people get enough iron thru what they eat, so physicians are advising no supplimental iron after those ages. You can have your Dr check your iron levels at your next blood test to be sure.
Building Your Strength Against Cancer - Iron: The Double-Edged Sword
"Iron encourages the formation of cancer-causing free radicals. Of course, the body needs a certain amount of iron for healthy blood cells. But beyond this rather small amount, iron becomes a dangerous substance, acting as a catalyst for the formation of free radicals. Because of this, research studies have shown that higher amounts of iron in the blood mean higher cancer risk.
Once iron is absorbed by the digestive tract, the body stores it. Most of us accumulate much more iron than we need. In spite of the advertising from iron supplement manufacturers, "iron overload" is much more common in America than iron deficiency. The reason is the daily diet of red meats, which contributes much more iron than most people can safely handle over the long run. A diet of grains, vegetables, fruits, and beans provides adequate iron, without the risk of overload....Unfortunately, the body has no way to rid itself of excess iron. Believe it or not, the only way to predictably reduce excessive iron stores is by donating blood. So this altruistic act can have health benefits for the donor as well"
The plastic rumors are false, both for the heating and freezing concerns.
(see previous link.)
Regarding the Teflon scare:
C8, the substance under scrutiny, is not found in the Teflon, itself. C8 is a substance used in the manufacturing process.
(see previous link.)
Regarding excess iron:
Current research shows that the dangers come into play when cholesterol and iron combine. It's a synergistic effect. Some people are genetically predisposed to retention of excess iron. Iron is a heavy metal and, as such, is not normally excreted from the body once ingested. Once it's in there, it's pretty much in there to stay unless it exits through blood loss. There is also a medical process for removing excess iron. Very few people need EXTRA iron. Anemic women in their child bearing years would be one such example. Men and post-menopausal women are at increased risk because that have no monthly mechanism in place for excreting iron.
Another nice thing to add to fresh Mayo is fresh dill. Just a pinch is nice along with dry mustard.
I sometimes mix that with horseradish and it makes a nice spread for sandwiches.
With homemade yogurt I add fresh blueberries and freeze it for a treat. As it thaws it is really yummy on a hot day. . . . you could even make a yogurtsicle.
When I buy spices now, I go to the whole foods market and get them from the big jars. Very inexpensive. . . fresher. . . and I get what I am going to need for a month. That way they don't sit in my cupboard and go stale.
Just to clarify, Bpa's, phthalates and dioxins are three different things and may not be present together in any one type of plastic. The numbers on the bottoms of plastic containers usually can indicate known recipes for that type of plastic and can help determine what plastic you have.
I find the fact that the UK and Canada have banned bpa containing plastics from baby bottles and certain types of food packaging to be extreemly relevant there have been genuine scientific studies to back up bpa information.
Also, the fact that under the right conditions, cooking with teflon can kill birds in the same room, is relevant too.
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geisha779
Now I See,
This sounds so good and I imagine it is moist as well. I am curious, the apple bread has a topping. . . did you use this?
Also, I love the idea of lemon instead of buttermilk. What I do is add a cap of vinegar to 2% milk. . . my own little lazy buttermilk. It works. Lemon is easier.
I was making 2 banana breads or apple breads a week. My son and friends were always asking for cookies, cakes, breads or whatever. Now, the house is fairly quiet and I am not baking as much. But, the friends are still coming and staying over even though my son is in Chicago. Just not as often.
I will try this combo. Really creative BTW. What a great idea. If you get a chance, you should post it on a recipe board.
Thanks for the new recipe. I will let you know how it turns out.
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now I see
Hey, Geisha, yes it is moist, and no I didn't add the topping only because I love the way the top crust of banana bread becomes so sweet and moist, it's one of the best things about banana bread, so I didn't want to deprive everyone from enjoying that aspect of it! I do think the topping is utterly fantastic, but I didn't want to give up the bread top, kinda like a muffin top thing. :)
Geisha, you must have the neighborhood house where all the kids like to hang out! I hear ya about the amount of food kids can consume, when the kids are gone, there's a whole lot less activity in the kitchen. Good luck with the new recipe, it should be a cinch since it's really your recipe! If you like lots of apples use 1 cup, if you'd like them a little more sparse, use 1/2 cup of chopped apples, they make a good contrast to the bananas in flavor and texture.
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kimberly
now I see, thank you so much for posting the links for making butter. Now folks know how simple and sooooo much cheaper it is to make our own right at home. As far as flavor and taste are concerned, there is no comparison between the store bought and homemade.
The health food store was once out of yogurt so I bought and used sour cream. I drained the liquid before using. A teenie bit different consistency (probably me) but it was just as good.
Do you make your own mayonnaise? We could talk some mayonnaise, honey.
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now I see
Kimberly, don't hold back on us, share your mayo recipies!! I would love to hear about making it at home!
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RumRunner
Mayonnaise is fairly easy to make although it only keeps a few days in the fridge. Plenty of recipes on line - just google mayonnaise recipes. I don't make it often because we are just not big mayonnaise eaters here - however home made mayonnaise will guarantee you never buy it in a store again.
Yogurt is also easy to make and a yogurt maker is not an expensive proposition. I always make it "plain" and let my children add what they want (usually fruit or honey) when it is served. Making it plain makes for easy additions to recipes - and BTW it won't taste anything like store bought yogurt.
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waysider
In FLO, we had a food co-op called "Manna".
We made our Mayo from scratch ----------for 50 people!
I can't believe I still eat the stuff after that.
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now I see
:) 50???
I've tried making mayo before, and it hasn't really turned out that well, and the last time I tried making yogurt, without a yogurt maker, some weird bacteria got in there and it took way longer than it was supposed to to set up, and gave me a stomach ache too! I think I missed it somewhere along the line with the technique...
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gc
What a great thread! I've just made bread for tomorrow's dinner of tomato veggy soup. Fresh butter would be wonderful. I have chives growing in the garden mmm mmm! Now to check on how much cream I have. Devon cream is supposed to be one of the best.
Thanks for the links and the new bread recipe
gc :)
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kimberly
now I see, this is the recipe that I use at home and teach in my classes.
Makes about 32 ounces
3 large pasteurized egg yolks
24 fl oz of vegetable oil
1 to 2 fl oz white vinegar or lemon juice
1 fl oz water
Whisk the yolks and a bit of the water together. Whisk until eggs are very loose.
Add the vinegar or lemon juice.
Pour the oil into the egg mixture whisking constantly. The oil MUST be added in a thin stream, particularly in the beginning.
If mayonnaise becomes too thick while incorporating oil then add droplets of water. Yes, this is one instance where water and oil do mix!! If mixture becomes too thick and you do not add water then the remainder of the oil will not be absorbed.
I am one of those that likes a mayo that stands up on its own. So mine is more jiggly than creamy. I lay off of the water a little bit.
Now, if you want a nuttier tasting mayo, maybe used for dipping, use all peanut or extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. Or use half nut oil and half vegetable.
You can add flavorings to your mayonnaise.
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kimberly
Green Goddess Dressing aka flavored mayonnaise (one of many)
In a food processor puree:
one cup each of spinach leaves and watercress
3 tbsp each parsley and tarragon
3 cloves garlic paste
cup of vegetable oil
Combine mixture with 32 oz of mayonnaise and 2 tbsp of dry mustard.
If you want add a little salt, pepper and or lemon juice.
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RumRunner
That is almost identical to what I have used - however I am lazy and discovered that if you use a blender on LOW <==== LOW then it works every bit as well as hand whisking - I actually just pulse the blender for more control. Using the blender also frees a hand so you have more control when slowly adding the oil. And here here for extra virgin olive oil!
BTW you can use the same blender technique for a perfectly adequate Hollandaise sauce - although since the yolks cook slightly with the hot butter you end up with a heck of a clean up job.
Edited by RumRunnerLink to comment
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doojable
I used to put all the ingredients in a tall Pyrex cup and use an immersion blender to whip it all together. For some reason the immersion blender eliminated the need to drizzle the oil in slowly.
I added a pinch of mustard powder to the ingredients already posted.
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kimberly
RumRunner, I am lazy in the area of washing equipment pieces. I would rather work up a sweat whisking than washing dishes. Ain't that crazy.
To keep the eggs from cooking make sure the temperature of your liquid is no higher than 145 degrees. Once the eggs have tripled in volume remove pan from heat and place on a damp towel. Add the melted butter in a thin stream whisking the entire time. Tempering also works.
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now I see
Great recipes, I will try each method and see what I like best, I have a question Kimberly, are those dried herbs in your Green Goddess dressing or fresh?
Does anyone have a no fail recipe for homemade yogurt without an actual yogurt maker?
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waysider
It's been a whole lot of years since I made yogurt.
I found THIS link, though, describing a process that sounds very much like what we used to do.
I'm not even sure they had fancy yogurt makers back then so I know you can do just fine without one.
You will need a candy thermometer because the temperature is crucial.
The directions mention adding powdered milk as a thickener.
I don't recall ever doing that but maybe my memory isn't clear on that point.
Some people like to keep a batch of BRANDIED FRUIT to add to it when served.
I've eaten it that way but have never brandied the fruit myself.
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now I see
Thanks!! Good link Waysider, I'd never thought of a cooler, it's brilliant, I also never sterilzed the jars before, so that is probably one reason my last batch turned out bad. I'm also extreemly BPA in plastics conscious, so I probably would use glass over plastic containers to make the yogurt.
I've had brandied cherries before, both the cherries and the brandied liquid were sooo good!
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
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kimberly
now I see, they are fresh herbs. Mince, mince, mince.
Did somebody say BPA's as in plastics?????
Thanks for the opening to get me going.
Two years ago I was teaching a class and we were talking about cooking surfaces. Don't even get me going on "non-stick" surfaces. Somebody mentioned Sheryl Crowe and her claiming drinking from plastic water bottles was responsible for her cancer. The student said he didn't believe it. Another student spoke up and said she was a cancer survivor. She said was told by our local American Cancer Society not to heat and eat anything in plastic as this increased a womans risk of breast cancer.
I had to find out for myself. I called them the next day and they verified this.
Anybody heard of Melamine? Yeh, I think so. Just because it is not being added to our food why would we want to eat from dishes made of this?
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waysider
Microwaving plastic.
Teflon
Melamine
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now I see
Tell me about it!
I've replaced plastic storage containers, kids plastic plates, bowls, cups, sports bottles, travel cups, kitchen utensils, tupperware, and 5 gallon water jug bottles, all swapped for stainless steel, or glass, or non bpa plastic. Also blender jugs and food processor clear plastic containers have high probability of containing bpa's.
You're now not supposed to heat any plastic or nuke plastics, or put hot foods on plastic, and check plastic drinking water container's numbers on the bottom to make sure they aren't made with the bad numbered plastic.
I already got rid of teflon pans in favor of stainless steel, anodized aluminum, and enameled cast iron. There are new studies that show too much iron built up in your system accellerates cancer growth especially in men over 30 and women over 50, so cast iron pans should be used on a limited basis.
Studies show bpa's in plastics and chemicals in nalgene bottles can leach estrogen imitating chemicals into food and drink and cause children to go into puberty early, and cause breast cancer in men and women. Baby bottles especially should not be made with plastic and pacifiers should be checked for bpa's. In fact its suggested that all bpa vinyls and plastics should be limited in our home environments, buildings and furnishings too. Almost all canned foods have bpa plastic liners...
Melamine like plastic also leaches chemicals if its scratched or heated, there are kitchen utensils, plates, bowls serving platters etc which are made out of melamine too.
Good old fashioned glass and stainless steel like our mothers used is apparently the wiser choice.
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
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kimberly
Thanks now I see and waysider. now I see, when you mentioned the estrogen thing that triggered my memory of what my student explained and the local ACS affirmed! The chemical reaction that takes place in heated plastic imitates estrogen.
About cast iron. I grew up in a home where we used only cast iron. My grandparents used only cast iron. I use cast iron almost exclusively and a couple of stainless steel pieces made by All-Clad. The thing about that is tricky. If you use cast iron take no vitamins with iron. If you cook one item a day in cast iron you get all the iron you need. Folks eat so much fake stuff in their diet it prohibits and/or impedes the proper absorption and working of iron. Less active folks need less iron. Then sometimes less active folks need more iron to get them up and going. Depends on diet.
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now I see
Well, I used plastic dishes with my kids, and used bpa leaching 5 gallon water bottles for my water before I found out about bpa too. But since my family is prone to certain cancers I tend to be more conscious of carcinogins I can controll.
The thing the studies are pointing to is that the body retains iron and excess iron encourages cancel cell growth. Post menopausal women don't need as much iron as before, males over thirty five don't require as much either, most people get enough iron thru what they eat, so physicians are advising no supplimental iron after those ages. You can have your Dr check your iron levels at your next blood test to be sure.
http://www.nutramed.com/nutrients/iron.htm
http://www.cancerproject.org/protective_fo...rength/iron.php
Building Your Strength Against Cancer - Iron: The Double-Edged Sword
"Iron encourages the formation of cancer-causing free radicals. Of course, the body needs a certain amount of iron for healthy blood cells. But beyond this rather small amount, iron becomes a dangerous substance, acting as a catalyst for the formation of free radicals. Because of this, research studies have shown that higher amounts of iron in the blood mean higher cancer risk.
Once iron is absorbed by the digestive tract, the body stores it. Most of us accumulate much more iron than we need. In spite of the advertising from iron supplement manufacturers, "iron overload" is much more common in America than iron deficiency. The reason is the daily diet of red meats, which contributes much more iron than most people can safely handle over the long run. A diet of grains, vegetables, fruits, and beans provides adequate iron, without the risk of overload....Unfortunately, the body has no way to rid itself of excess iron. Believe it or not, the only way to predictably reduce excessive iron stores is by donating blood. So this altruistic act can have health benefits for the donor as well"
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
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waysider
Regarding plastic:
The plastic rumors are false, both for the heating and freezing concerns.
(see previous link.)
Regarding the Teflon scare:
C8, the substance under scrutiny, is not found in the Teflon, itself. C8 is a substance used in the manufacturing process.
(see previous link.)
Regarding excess iron:
Current research shows that the dangers come into play when cholesterol and iron combine. It's a synergistic effect. Some people are genetically predisposed to retention of excess iron. Iron is a heavy metal and, as such, is not normally excreted from the body once ingested. Once it's in there, it's pretty much in there to stay unless it exits through blood loss. There is also a medical process for removing excess iron. Very few people need EXTRA iron. Anemic women in their child bearing years would be one such example. Men and post-menopausal women are at increased risk because that have no monthly mechanism in place for excreting iron.
http://www.excessiron.com/excess-iron-symptoms.jsp
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8970483
Regarding Melamine:
Melamine is non toxic. The dangers of kidney problems are real but are associated with use of sizable quantities in the powdered form.
(see previous link.)
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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geisha779
Another nice thing to add to fresh Mayo is fresh dill. Just a pinch is nice along with dry mustard.
I sometimes mix that with horseradish and it makes a nice spread for sandwiches.
With homemade yogurt I add fresh blueberries and freeze it for a treat. As it thaws it is really yummy on a hot day. . . . you could even make a yogurtsicle.
When I buy spices now, I go to the whole foods market and get them from the big jars. Very inexpensive. . . fresher. . . and I get what I am going to need for a month. That way they don't sit in my cupboard and go stale.
They have a huge selection. . .
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now I see
Just to clarify, Bpa's, phthalates and dioxins are three different things and may not be present together in any one type of plastic. The numbers on the bottoms of plastic containers usually can indicate known recipes for that type of plastic and can help determine what plastic you have.
I find the fact that the UK and Canada have banned bpa containing plastics from baby bottles and certain types of food packaging to be extreemly relevant there have been genuine scientific studies to back up bpa information.
Also, the fact that under the right conditions, cooking with teflon can kill birds in the same room, is relevant too.
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
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