I don't post here much but will add a few things on this subject matter.Socks pretty well said it like it was.
When I started Way Prod .back in 1971 it was never my intention that we would control any artist or their God given talent .Believe it or not VP gave us free reign and most of the time he stayed out of our way.Oh sure he would add his two cents worth from time to time but it was never this is the law thing.
There is much that most of you have no idea about such as most of the pressure in the beginnings of Way Prod. came from leadership on the west and east coast.
In 1974 I chose from the fouth way corps (not VP) the musicans and singers to become part of Joyful Noise,and I will say that to this very day I'm so proud of all that took part in our venture. Later on we were blessed by several new members of Way Prod.
Some of you may think VP controlled Way Prod. but I'm here to say he did not and take it for what it's worth I have first hand knowledge on that issue.
The things that happened after I made the choice to move on in 1984 I don't know about.The reason why I moved on was because I could see and feel the cold wind of change was blowing in,and that my work for The Way was finished.
In my dealings with churches I have attended since that time,I have not found anyone that believes next to the greatness of God's taught or spoken Word the next greatest way to move God's Word is through music and song I heard VP make that statement many times
Please be it known I will not get into a ruhbarb with any of you or defend my statements.
Ted, you are one of the good guys of Way Prod. However , didn't Wow Records say that VP Wierwille, Harry, and Ermal Owens were the executive producers of Selah, Good Seed, Pressed Down, and Jpyful Noise; not you, Brian, Dean, Skip , Greg, Paul Vergillio, or the other musicians? I know that several of pieces have been re-recorded on CD's. Not sure if TWI still owns the copyrights or not, and whether you guys and ladies were compensated financially for your talented masterpieces. I would not be too harsh on Hillsongs, Casting Crowns, Don Moen, Bill Gaither, Chris Tomlin, etc. because it is not CFFM or S&TFI or other TWI splinter group understanding of scripture(accuracy). I believe VPW used to play the guitar in high school but was reprimanded by his father Ernest for doing so and never took the instrument to college. I don't know if he took piano lessons or not. TW:LIL, UH, Serving book by Mrs. Wierwille really don't give all the details on his life, much less on his interest in music and the fine arts.
Yes, he did play guitar. Knew at least 3 chords, C F and G7. He could get on those 3 pretty good too. For a while there he'd do "Ol' Rattler" or "Here Rattler" or some tune like that in the summer school periods. I think he knew "On Top of Ol' Smokey" and some of those older country/folk tunes.
If Ted's gone for a spell, I'll say that the "Producer" role was an honorary one, although in many ways, yes, VPW was the "producer" . His guidance and direction set the stage (little music humor there) for Way Productions. And it varied. I know the role and the definition so please I'd rather not get into a Dictionary War.
Ted was actually the "producer" in a practical sense. They both worked together on details. But again, for the first few years we were largely on our own in JN.
And Ted's getting into the nitty gritty on the East/West Coast stuff. I'm sure he's taking into account that "Music Ministry" meeting in New Knoxville's High School the summer of '71 and a lot of the discussions that were going on at that time. It was far from a concensus coming out of that meeting and there was disagreement on who should lead the thing. That had nothing to do with VPW, at all. Cookin' Mama had talked to him twice that year and he wasn't clear on what he wanted to do yet, but he had Ted in mind to head it up. We got into a row over lyrics and that never really cooled off.
From my view it was all good people trying to do good things and make something happen but it was definitely not a settled group of people at that time. This will sound like I'm defending VPW which is fine by me - but to Ted's reference - it bugged VPW that all of the various interested parties had such a hard time getting together and agreeing on anything. He finally gave the reins to Ted and it moved forward from there for Way Productions. Ted was a good person for it, he was a musician, writer, performer. He knew the drill to get something up and running.
VPW had a few key points he was locked in on. Volume was one. He didn't get the whole "crank the volume to Bruise" thing most of us were into. But then, after our first concert in New Bremen, he told me I needed to turn up. "Turn up Ru-ez, can't hear you on all that stuff".
As for compensation Thomas, JN wrote for the Way people, the Way Ministry. If you gave any money to the Way, you paid for it through your ABS. JN wasn't exactly a money maker. Most of us felt the song ownership wasn't an economic issue, nor one of "ownership". Everyone knew say, "Sons of God" was written by Brian Bliss. No one claimed otherwise. The copyright on the song wasn't an issue as far as ownership and money was concerned. We wern't promoting "these are our songs and we want all rights to them". They were our songs and we had all the rights we needed or wanted.
That's right a producer is the one or ones that puts up the bucks.If anyone has a Pressed Down album look on credits that reads produced by Steve Hefner.On Selah the credits read produced by Ted Ferrell .One more album that has my name listed is on Tom L's Glory News
I decided that I or no one else were the producers ,only the board of trustes were the true
producers.That was my decision
Far as compensation is concerned let's say you make a recording for a major label. Before you recevie any monies the cost of studio time, musicians etc. and etc. must be met first.
Way Productions never sold enough product to warrant any compensation.The Way even at it's peak only around 25% purchased our albums.
In 1975 I had to convince VP.that I believed Joyful Noise was ready and that we should record and put out albums.I told him we will not be going to Cinn.Ohio to record and rack up thosand of dollars for studio time as we had done before,.but rather do it in house. My closing statment was let's think big but keep it simple.
He said OK and that's how Joyful Noise 1,2,and 3 come into being. Everything after that was recorded in house with the excepation of America Awakes in 1976. That was Ken's baby and he did a wondeful job of directing.To this day the songs and lyrics of America Awakes hold true for our hurting country.
There is much more that I could share but I'll call it a day, but before I head outI will add ,that my friend socks is still my favorite picker of all times .The man is the best all around musician,singer,and songwriter to ever come down the pike.
One problem here I feel is that because everything is so tightly controlled there is no encouragement. I thought the church is the place where you're supposed to grow. It's like if you don't fit within the mold forget it.
The funny thing is that we got to finally play my song three years after it was rejected. I had given my notice and they knew it was my last time with the band so I guess they figured they'd "throw me a bone" or something. In September I raised the idea of doing a concert where we did all originals and at first the idea was received well but when I insisted on singing some of my songs ( while I'm not a "front person" I've always taken a few lead vocals in every other group before I played at this church ) I was met with "well if your idea of fun includes you singing lead you need to do your own thing." So that killed that. I guess from now on I won't work with "Way believers", only Christians.
Well hmm. TommyZ, I have to tell you I remember the many times you've posted on GS related to your musical endeavors, looking for music, recordings, ideas. All I can say is that given the interest and heart you showed for what you were doing - you were not treated well.
I was in a local store today buying some saddle bridges for a guitar I'm working on. I ran into a couple of the guys that play in that local church band I spoke of that plays so well with such a variety of musicians. The bass player said that as he gets older he finds the most important thing to him is to work with "good people", people that have good heads, hearts, and know how to work and get along. The gig doesn't have to be the snappiest but if it's with good people he can enjoy playing with, he's good with it. I'd agree with that.
I thought of you and this thread. Your music means a lot to you. You should keep at it. If you do work with those guys again, just take it for what it is. It's a gig. All this crap about ego this and ego that. You're bigger than that. But I gotta tell you - if it's involving that guy on that clip you sent me, the one quacking about being careful about "having fun" and all....? He sounded like a real buzz kill. That was definitely weird.
I don't post here much but will add a few things on this subject matter.Socks pretty well said it like it was.
When I started Way Prod .back in 1971 it was never my intention that we would control any artist or their God given talent .Believe it or not VP gave us free reign and most of the time he stayed out of our way.Oh sure he would add his two cents worth from time to time but it was never this is the law thing.
There is much that most of you have no idea about such as most of the pressure in the beginnings of Way Prod. came from leadership on the west and east coast.
In 1974 I chose from the fouth way corps (not VP) the musicans and singers to become part of Joyful Noise,and I will say that to this very day I'm so proud of all that took part in our venture. Later on we were blessed by several new members of Way Prod.
Some of you may think VP controlled Way Prod. but I'm here to say he did not and take it for what it's worth I have first hand knowledge on that issue.
The things that happened after I made the choice to move on in 1984 I don't know about.The reason why I moved on was because I could see and feel the cold wind of change was blowing in,and that my work for The Way was finished.
In my dealings with churches I have attended since that time,I have not found anyone that believes next to the greatness of God's taught or spoken Word the next greatest way to move God's Word is through music and song I heard VP make that statement many times
Please be it known I will not get into a ruhbarb with any of you or defend my statements.
God Bless All Of You And All That Good Stuff
Ted Ferrell
Yeah, but......."the cold wind of change was blowing in" around 1978.....(imo).
And.........there were several corps nights or high country caravan rehearsals that wierwille DID CONFRONT and THROW HIS WEIGHT AROUND. If I remember correctly, Ted......you were out on the field for some of those years, gone from hq.
Wierwille got VERY INVOLVED......with his quartet, "the victors."
Wierwille talked openly about things on corps night many times.
Wierwille took great pride in knowing that "his keeds" were going to the Grand Ole Opry.
Wierwille was at all those high country caravan rehearsals........he strongly confronted v1ci1 Allxn and told her to sway with the music and "throw her boobs around." Okay......no big deal, but wierwille would publically humiliate some musicians and singers. That's just the way he was......but the J0e F@ir confrontation was MUCH MORE than a singing critique......it was CHARACTER ASSASSINATION (imo).....and wierwille was 66 yrs old.
Why did wierwille have to *strip someone down publically?*.......and then, go on and talk about it at lunchtime in front of the hq staff?.........manipulation? coercion?
Gee, doesn't *love* cover a multitude of sins? And, wasn't the "lockbox teaching" (cough, cough) still in operation?? Why is wierwille sanitized from these tantrums, outbursts, character assassinations?
I know that wierwille didn't "control" way productions..........but he sure as he11 implemented a CLIMATE OF FEAR WHEN HE WALKED INTO A ROOM.
Thanks, Ted, I'm glad you are weighing in. I would love to hear more about, "most of the pressure in the beginnings of Way Prod. came from leadership on the west and east coast," because you were involved in it and I was just on the outside looking in. What I saw ('71-'72) was musicians who had learned their craft before The Way inspired to sing about their Christian experience (and often, their PFAL experience).
What was going on behind the scenes, particularly when it came to choosing who was onstage and who wasn't?
It's not just musical talent that was controlled. If anyone had any ability or talent in any direction, instead of being thankful that God has endowed us all a little differently, any talents had to be totally subjugated to TWI / PFAL thinking. Or the talented person was belittled and their ability sneered at.
I have a recollection (vague, and third or nth hand hearsay) that VPW thought the music ministry was very important for TWI. That would be the groups, not the stuff on stage.
One of my coordinators wrote a sweet song (and its music) that was very popular in the fellowship and we all loved it when she sang the song. She had been singing it for years. Then one year, around the early 90s, she went to RoA and sang on the Family Stage or some such - anyway, the song came to the attention of Way Prods. Next thing, this song had some of its lyrics changed, an extra verse was added, and it became a Way Prods song commonly sung by someone else AND they, TWI, claimed copyright. She said, gamely, that the additions had made it a better song, but she also seemed rather sad about it. She never got any credit for composing it.
Somewhat off topic, Hillsong the group and the Church have attracted adverse criticism:
See stuff from about half way down the page, and followed up in some of the articles at the bottom of the page.
Regardless of any controversy, they're still great songs, very popular in the church I now go to, very popular elsewhere, and often significant chunks of psalms set to modern music. As long as you don't mind the trinitarian bent to some of the songs...
In my opinion, it's important to understand the difference between a producer and a director. As Ted pointed out, a producer is someone who finances an artistic endeavor. Sometimes the producer will finance an effort alone and sometimes he/she will coordinate a group of investors. Clearly, Wierwille was the producer of WP and we, through ABS, were the group of investors.
A director, on the other hand, coordinates the actual production. He/she may also delegate various aspects, such as costume design, set construction, vocal coaching, etc.The director is responsible for the artistic development and staging of the whole effort, though. As such, the director has a responsibility to deliver a satisfactory product to the producer and investors.
Sometimes the two designations will overlap. The producer may also be the director, the director may also be the choreographer and so on. Sometimes these arrangements work well. Sometimes----not so well. (slightly off-topic---Bullets Over Broadway is a hilarious movie that illustrates what happens when things don't go well.)
A successful director, like Ted, is one who knows how to elicit quality work from the performers, while still keeping the investors happy. Mighty, mighty big shoes to fill. I guess the question in my mind is how much Wierwille overstepped his function as strictly a producer. And, was he qualified to function outside of the producer role? The incident in New Bremen would seem to be such an instance. Anyway, as a producer, he did have an obligation to his investors to have at least some kind of voice in the production's development. Did he abuse that obligation by taking over the director's functions? And if he did, what are some examples in addition to the New Bremen incident?
Did he abuse that obligation by taking over the director's functions? And if he did, what are some examples in addition to the New Bremen incident?
Asking those questions.......is like asking if wierwille ever rode in rough-shod over walter's research department. An abusive situation doesn't necessarily mean "taking over"........just DOMINEERING.
The mog title ALWAYS trumphed any cards you were holding.
Asking those questions.......is like asking if wierwille ever rode in rough-shod over walter's research department. An abusive situation doesn't necessarily mean "taking over"........just DOMINEERING.
The mog title ALWAYS trumphed any cards you were holding.
:blink:
HaHaHaHa!
I couldn't decide which one of those "smilies" would best convey the rhetoric.
Sorry to some of you folks for having posted some of my first hand knowlege about Way Productions and VP's involvement .When push comes to shove VP was Way Productions greatest supporter.I know that no matter what I say some reply's will be yeah but.
With that said I will be moving along. Just one more truth to add, The Victors I put together beacuse VP asked me to do it for him.
Sorry to some of you folks for having posted some of my first hand knowlege about Way Productions and VP's involvement .When push comes to shove VP was Way Productions greatest supporter.I know that no matter what I say some reply's will be yeah but.
With that said I will be moving along. Just one more truth to add, The Victors I put together beacuse VP asked me to do it for him.
That's all folks have fun and God Bless
Ted Ferrell
Sorry Ted.............for having posted some of MY first-hand knowledge and realities of wierwille.
Some people, no matter what you say...........will always elevate wierwille to a mog status and "spiritual pedestal" despite the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.
Some splinter groups, with associations to the wierwille kids.......like to sanitize wierwille's name and legacy.
Before exiting this thread..........I want to personally THANK ALL YOU MUSICIANS, who played and sang songs that so liberated my soul. Some of those moments, "transcended me to places on high"......to a spiritual realm of love and peace that is indescribable. Thank you.
And Ted...........thanks for all your years of heart-felt service.
But with that said, I find myself adopting much of the same viewpoints that DontWorry has so aptly stated here at GS time and time again. Clearly, he saw those early years MUCH BETTER THAN I......and yet, was able to take off those rose-colored glasses and dismantle the corruption in twi. On the "ordination thread" he shared this about his introduction into twi via his hippie musician friends:
....for the most part, i tend to agree that the "nature" of twi is difficult to separate from that of its founder.........but the "organization" we "joined" was quite a bit more enigmatic than just the overtly pathological nature of its founder, because it did suck in quite a number of folks whose "nature", motivation, and heart were markedly different from those of its founder.........i know that vic himself along with howard allen, was "corrupt" well before 1970.......his perversions, both doctrinal and personal were habitualized by him, imho, by the time he left his denominational church in van wert, in 1957.........but, twi really did'nt "take off" until after he finished filming pfal in 1968, especially in the years and locations i mentioned in my first post on this thread..........the large influx of young, idealistic, "believers" in 1969, and throughout the decade of the '70's is what i was a part of......it was'nt vic, or any of the "old timers" in ohio who witnessed to me........it was my hippie, musician friends whose genuine enthusiasm for "things spiritual", and whose marked "transformation through christ", caught my attention..........and, the many "miracles, signs and wonders" which, i believe, god wrought among us back in those days had nothing to do with vic's personal presence or involvement in our lives, but, quite the contrary, it had to do with our childlike, enthusiastic, and genuinely exuberant acceptance of christ as our risen saviour, and our innocent "believing action" upon the parts of the bible we were learning and accepting as "truth".........the fellowships we were a part of, and bringing our friends and families to were really a lot of fun!......and, the fruit of the spirit as listed in galatians 5:22,23 were evident in abundance, and were accomplishing their results in an atmosphere free from the control of vic and the growing cult machinery of hq in new knoxville!.........as a matter of fact, it was the ever increasing personal control exerted by vic with his increasing personal involvement in our lives and fellowships, which, imo, eventually stifled and strangled the genuine "revivals" god was energizing among the early twi fellowships.......this was the fruit of vic's "ministry" being brought to bear upon the ministry of jesus christ.........vic's profound corruption was becoming institutionalized among the innocent, geniune christian fellowships god and christ were "planting" around the USA, not just in twi, but in a broader "spiritual movement" that was far bigger than anything vic demanded credit for!!......imho, vic's "ministry" sowed the "tares" of his personal and doctrinal perversions among the "good seed" god and christ were sowing without any need of help from the "ministry" of "the teacher"!
the more involved believers became with vic's programs (wow, way corps, "college" division, word in business, culture, etc., etc., etc.) and classes, the more the "tares" of his corruption took root and choked the innocence and purity of holy spirit and its fruit out of the lives and fellowships of the "good seed"............and, for those of us fortunate enough to have "tasted" and experienced genuine christian revival, and who earnestly desired to see it continue and spread throughout "the world", unfettered by "man-made religion",..........the "vehicle" we thought god provided in twi, was hijacked by the "vehicle" vic provided in its stead, also called twi, but not "fueled" by god, but rather by the growing control and dominance of vic's personal perversions and corruption, eventually yielding its own "fruit" in the monster of hypocrisy, deceit, and abject immorality which the entire organization of twi grew into and remains to this day........a monument to the legacy of the "ministry" of "the teacher"........not the legacy of the ministry of jesus christ to the world..........fortunately, the two are NOT the same!
Thanks, Ted. I have mostly moved along as well, but I think many people have unresolved questions about their experience with The Way International, Inc. I don't want to hype the problems up to be more than they were, but I don't want to make them out to be less, either. Let the truth set them free.
Sorry to some of you folks for having posted some of my first hand knowlege about Way Productions and VP's involvement .
Oh, boo hoo. This is a discussion forum, stop feeling sorry for yourself. I for one am glad you weighed in with your first hand observations, but I am equally thankful for the observations of those who saw it somewhat differently.
When push comes to shove VP was Way Productions greatest supporter.I know that no matter what I say some reply's will be yeah but.
Well, when you read some of the things that other people have posted, of course there are going to be "yeah-buts". Everybody has a different perspective.
While it certainly is better to hear from someone like yourself who was in the thick of things, yours weren't the only set of eyes & ears present. Different conclusions can be reached by reasonable people from the same set of facts. If you expect to ride in here and say your piece without any comment from anyone and attempt to cut off discussion then you're not understanding the "discussion" part of "discussion forum".
John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend
To see the whole picture of what was really truth often eludes those who were close enough to 'touch' the elephant, so often perspectives are based soley on what we saw in front of us, based on our positions, our circle of friends, and those we associate with. Â To stretch and look beyond our insular point of view toward what might have been the experience of others is sometimes the hardest thing. Â VP and TWI both sowed the crops of wheat and of tares, I feel blessed to have experienced both so that my eyes have been opened.
Well, I am late to the party, but I will say, socks was probably my fav Way Prod. musician - he was wonderful, and since he was a guitar player and an excellent one, I was always watching his fingers as he played his Gibson LP Custom (correct, that's what it was, wasn't it?).
When I was in high school and we'd drive to HQ for a weekend in '72, I'd go watch JN rehearse and let Ted know I wanted to be in it someday. I had been playing in "rock" bands through high school and really wanted to be in JN - as did a lot of other young people.
Then I went in the corps. I was blessed to be able to be in the corps dance band, and, also, to write music for it. Why did I write music for it? Because it was supposed to be dance/rock music - TWI didn't really have that type of music, so someone had to write it, and I've always been good with coming up with riffs, rockers, etc., so I stepped up and wrote enough to get us through, plus with others that we were able to "rock up" from Way prod recordings. It was a lot of fun.
My last year in -res, I was blessed to be picked to run - uh - "coordinate" the corps dance band. We had had an excellent dance band my first year, and so my last year, after the first rehearsal, I did not feel some of the musicians were up to speed and dismissed them and went to H*l*n S*dd*th and told her and asked for some others please. I did this because, in the "world," if a band member wasn't good enough you let him go and found someone who was. It was all done innocently enough. Well, she read me the riot act - and, of course, now, much older and wiser, I don't blame her. I got everyone back, we rehearsed and we got quite good. And I loved seeing these people come alive in a band context and really feel like there was some place in the "impersonal" corps program, where they could shine and be a part of a group that just had fun - lots of fun, no rules, no regs, no bible over the head. They may not have been as good as the first group, but I think I loved them more and had a greater time with them. Wonderful people.
When I was on staff at Emporia, me and Rick Panyard (of Good Seed fame and college division) put together the staff Dance band because quite a few staffers played, it was done by ourselves, for the fun of it. It lasted a couple of years and was also great fun.
It was all great fun because VPW was not involved. Somehow, this had all slipped under his radar.
Then I get to HQ. I said to D. Bailey, let's start a '40s big band, swing thing, the music my dad played, and I loved and grew up with, there are plenty of musicians here to do it. We rounded up people who wanted to, had a rehearsal, had fun, and it sounded great. VP gets wind of it, I later hear he's scrapped it and wants to make it some sappy dinner/supper type thing. We all said no thanks.
Then VP wants to do another country band. I was asked to play guitar, said, well, ok. I think it was with people who had been in a group called the Jordan River Ramblers - a forerunner of Way Caravan. Anyway, the bass player leaves, and I am forced to play bass. Ok, I've never played bass, played the scale for each chord, it sounded decent enough. One night, we have to show up at the Minster theater. VP is there wants to watch us play and critique us. It was awful, yells at me because I am not constantly smiling and looked at my guitar as a I was changing a chord. I was not a happy camper. Neither were the rest of the people he railed on. I told Ted, I quit, I don't care what VP thinks. VP comes and finds me next day, says I played great. I'm thinking, what kind of game is this, first you yell, then you say something opposite. I stayed a little while longer and the band shortly thereafter fell apart - thank God.
I guess my point is, when we were left to ourselves to do it, bless others and have fun, it was great. But VP took the blessing out of it. By the time I had arrived at HQ I had known for years I did not want to be in Way Prod. It seemed so stifling, it was so controlling, they also had let go some of the best talent because it seemed to me, if someone truly had "charisma" it was a threat, and they would be gone. I liked the people in Way Prod., but to me, the music was always very mediocre, except the early '70s, before VP really starting having a hand in it. From about '76 on, it did nothing for me.
Personally, VP was of a different generation. While building the ministry, he let the kids have their fun because it attracted other people to his ministry. Once it had grown, I think is when he really started clamping down and I saw some of the best musicians treated terribly.
Socks, I think as time went on, and you had left, there was a JN reunion some years later. You came back, did not have a guitar then, but I did not like the way the Way Prod people were treating you - it was an attitude they had, you were such a wonderful sweet person. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think that was the last time I saw or spoke to you.
Anyway, that was my experiences on the fringes of Way Prod. I left HQ in the early '80s, went to NYC and played metal, thrash and hardcore for a decade, from CBGB's to every club in NYC and had lots of fun...
I guess my point is, when we were left to ourselves to do it, bless others and have fun, it was great. But VP took the blessing out of it. By the time I had arrived at HQ I had known for years I did not want to be in Way Prod. It seemed so stifling, it was so controlling, they also had let go some of the best talent because it seemed to me, if someone truly had "charisma" it was a threat, and they would be gone. I liked the people in Way Prod., but to me, the music was always very mediocre, except the early '70s, before VP really starting having a hand in it. From about '76 on, it did nothing for me.
Personally, VP was of a different generation. While building the ministry, he let the kids have their fun because it attracted other people to his ministry. Once it had grown, I think is when he really started clamping down and I saw some of the best musicians treated terribly.
Before TWI, I was very involved in music. I had played hundreds of gigs before I ever heard of PFAL. After I got in TWI, I had a Limb Leader (who had no musical background that I was aware of) try to tell me I held my microphone all wrong. He insisted I needed to shape my hand like a duck bill and hold the mic. gently so it would appear to be light in weight. I guess that's cool------------ if you want to look like you're auditioning for Lawrence Welk or something!
Sunesis, thanks. I enjoyed the time we had getting to know each other too! I enjoyed your playing too.
Sound Out '84 - yep. Or "Pound Out" as it came to be known. Two weeks, one at the Way Nash and the second in Nashville. I'll have to get back on that one, although on the short side I could say it was The New Way Productions in high relief. Rosalie and Harve and the gang. I have nothing good to say about working with either of them at that event so I'll have to ponder how and if to express my thoughts.
I had a Gretsch and a Strat-style custom, an odd one-off guitar that playedokay but had some humbuckers - can't remember the make - but they were a good 50% louder than the standard hb. I didnt' take either one up with us from Florida. We had our two kidlings, though. :) I think they had an LP there I played, although it wasn't a Gold Top like the one I'd had you're thinking of. (wish I still had that puppy!)
You reminded me of some stuff I'll have to get back to here. Good to sEe you!! Hope all is well.
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Tzaia
Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at dri
waysider
Stepping up to the microphone is a bit like stepping up to the plate in baseball. You have to have a certain confidence that you are about to hit one out of the park. Call it ego if you want but it is
potato
I only watched high country caravan on video. I didn't like them, but I never like hee-haw either, and they seemed like a direct rip off of the whole idea. yeah, like the SERMONS? those were just li
TED Ferrell
Hey You All
I don't post here much but will add a few things on this subject matter.Socks pretty well said it like it was.
When I started Way Prod .back in 1971 it was never my intention that we would control any artist or their God given talent .Believe it or not VP gave us free reign and most of the time he stayed out of our way.Oh sure he would add his two cents worth from time to time but it was never this is the law thing.
There is much that most of you have no idea about such as most of the pressure in the beginnings of Way Prod. came from leadership on the west and east coast.
In 1974 I chose from the fouth way corps (not VP) the musicans and singers to become part of Joyful Noise,and I will say that to this very day I'm so proud of all that took part in our venture. Later on we were blessed by several new members of Way Prod.
Some of you may think VP controlled Way Prod. but I'm here to say he did not and take it for what it's worth I have first hand knowledge on that issue.
The things that happened after I made the choice to move on in 1984 I don't know about.The reason why I moved on was because I could see and feel the cold wind of change was blowing in,and that my work for The Way was finished.
In my dealings with churches I have attended since that time,I have not found anyone that believes next to the greatness of God's taught or spoken Word the next greatest way to move God's Word is through music and song I heard VP make that statement many times
Please be it known I will not get into a ruhbarb with any of you or defend my statements.
God Bless All Of You And All That Good Stuff
Ted Ferrell
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ted, you are one of the good guys of Way Prod. However , didn't Wow Records say that VP Wierwille, Harry, and Ermal Owens were the executive producers of Selah, Good Seed, Pressed Down, and Jpyful Noise; not you, Brian, Dean, Skip , Greg, Paul Vergillio, or the other musicians? I know that several of pieces have been re-recorded on CD's. Not sure if TWI still owns the copyrights or not, and whether you guys and ladies were compensated financially for your talented masterpieces. I would not be too harsh on Hillsongs, Casting Crowns, Don Moen, Bill Gaither, Chris Tomlin, etc. because it is not CFFM or S&TFI or other TWI splinter group understanding of scripture(accuracy). I believe VPW used to play the guitar in high school but was reprimanded by his father Ernest for doing so and never took the instrument to college. I don't know if he took piano lessons or not. TW:LIL, UH, Serving book by Mrs. Wierwille really don't give all the details on his life, much less on his interest in music and the fine arts.
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socks
Yes, he did play guitar. Knew at least 3 chords, C F and G7. He could get on those 3 pretty good too. For a while there he'd do "Ol' Rattler" or "Here Rattler" or some tune like that in the summer school periods. I think he knew "On Top of Ol' Smokey" and some of those older country/folk tunes.
If Ted's gone for a spell, I'll say that the "Producer" role was an honorary one, although in many ways, yes, VPW was the "producer" . His guidance and direction set the stage (little music humor there) for Way Productions. And it varied. I know the role and the definition so please I'd rather not get into a Dictionary War.
Ted was actually the "producer" in a practical sense. They both worked together on details. But again, for the first few years we were largely on our own in JN.
And Ted's getting into the nitty gritty on the East/West Coast stuff. I'm sure he's taking into account that "Music Ministry" meeting in New Knoxville's High School the summer of '71 and a lot of the discussions that were going on at that time. It was far from a concensus coming out of that meeting and there was disagreement on who should lead the thing. That had nothing to do with VPW, at all. Cookin' Mama had talked to him twice that year and he wasn't clear on what he wanted to do yet, but he had Ted in mind to head it up. We got into a row over lyrics and that never really cooled off.
From my view it was all good people trying to do good things and make something happen but it was definitely not a settled group of people at that time. This will sound like I'm defending VPW which is fine by me - but to Ted's reference - it bugged VPW that all of the various interested parties had such a hard time getting together and agreeing on anything. He finally gave the reins to Ted and it moved forward from there for Way Productions. Ted was a good person for it, he was a musician, writer, performer. He knew the drill to get something up and running.
VPW had a few key points he was locked in on. Volume was one. He didn't get the whole "crank the volume to Bruise" thing most of us were into. But then, after our first concert in New Bremen, he told me I needed to turn up. "Turn up Ru-ez, can't hear you on all that stuff".
As for compensation Thomas, JN wrote for the Way people, the Way Ministry. If you gave any money to the Way, you paid for it through your ABS. JN wasn't exactly a money maker. Most of us felt the song ownership wasn't an economic issue, nor one of "ownership". Everyone knew say, "Sons of God" was written by Brian Bliss. No one claimed otherwise. The copyright on the song wasn't an issue as far as ownership and money was concerned. We wern't promoting "these are our songs and we want all rights to them". They were our songs and we had all the rights we needed or wanted.
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TED Ferrell
Socks my man you got it.
That's right a producer is the one or ones that puts up the bucks.If anyone has a Pressed Down album look on credits that reads produced by Steve Hefner.On Selah the credits read produced by Ted Ferrell .One more album that has my name listed is on Tom L's Glory News
I decided that I or no one else were the producers ,only the board of trustes were the true
producers.That was my decision
Far as compensation is concerned let's say you make a recording for a major label. Before you recevie any monies the cost of studio time, musicians etc. and etc. must be met first.
Way Productions never sold enough product to warrant any compensation.The Way even at it's peak only around 25% purchased our albums.
In 1975 I had to convince VP.that I believed Joyful Noise was ready and that we should record and put out albums.I told him we will not be going to Cinn.Ohio to record and rack up thosand of dollars for studio time as we had done before,.but rather do it in house. My closing statment was let's think big but keep it simple.
He said OK and that's how Joyful Noise 1,2,and 3 come into being. Everything after that was recorded in house with the excepation of America Awakes in 1976. That was Ken's baby and he did a wondeful job of directing.To this day the songs and lyrics of America Awakes hold true for our hurting country.
There is much more that I could share but I'll call it a day, but before I head outI will add ,that my friend socks is still my favorite picker of all times .The man is the best all around musician,singer,and songwriter to ever come down the pike.
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TOMMYZ
One problem here I feel is that because everything is so tightly controlled there is no encouragement. I thought the church is the place where you're supposed to grow. It's like if you don't fit within the mold forget it.
The funny thing is that we got to finally play my song three years after it was rejected. I had given my notice and they knew it was my last time with the band so I guess they figured they'd "throw me a bone" or something. In September I raised the idea of doing a concert where we did all originals and at first the idea was received well but when I insisted on singing some of my songs ( while I'm not a "front person" I've always taken a few lead vocals in every other group before I played at this church ) I was met with "well if your idea of fun includes you singing lead you need to do your own thing." So that killed that. I guess from now on I won't work with "Way believers", only Christians.
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socks
Well hmm. TommyZ, I have to tell you I remember the many times you've posted on GS related to your musical endeavors, looking for music, recordings, ideas. All I can say is that given the interest and heart you showed for what you were doing - you were not treated well.
I was in a local store today buying some saddle bridges for a guitar I'm working on. I ran into a couple of the guys that play in that local church band I spoke of that plays so well with such a variety of musicians. The bass player said that as he gets older he finds the most important thing to him is to work with "good people", people that have good heads, hearts, and know how to work and get along. The gig doesn't have to be the snappiest but if it's with good people he can enjoy playing with, he's good with it. I'd agree with that.
I thought of you and this thread. Your music means a lot to you. You should keep at it. If you do work with those guys again, just take it for what it is. It's a gig. All this crap about ego this and ego that. You're bigger than that. But I gotta tell you - if it's involving that guy on that clip you sent me, the one quacking about being careful about "having fun" and all....? He sounded like a real buzz kill. That was definitely weird.
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Kevlar2000
I thought you were going say the technicians told you, "We saw a whole lot of splinter leadership up there."
(sorry, but that's just the way my mind works.)
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skyrider
Yeah, but......."the cold wind of change was blowing in" around 1978.....(imo).
And.........there were several corps nights or high country caravan rehearsals that wierwille DID CONFRONT and THROW HIS WEIGHT AROUND. If I remember correctly, Ted......you were out on the field for some of those years, gone from hq.
Wierwille got VERY INVOLVED......with his quartet, "the victors."
Wierwille talked openly about things on corps night many times.
Wierwille took great pride in knowing that "his keeds" were going to the Grand Ole Opry.
Wierwille was at all those high country caravan rehearsals........he strongly confronted v1ci1 Allxn and told her to sway with the music and "throw her boobs around." Okay......no big deal, but wierwille would publically humiliate some musicians and singers. That's just the way he was......but the J0e F@ir confrontation was MUCH MORE than a singing critique......it was CHARACTER ASSASSINATION (imo).....and wierwille was 66 yrs old.
Why did wierwille have to *strip someone down publically?*.......and then, go on and talk about it at lunchtime in front of the hq staff?.........manipulation? coercion?
Gee, doesn't *love* cover a multitude of sins? And, wasn't the "lockbox teaching" (cough, cough) still in operation?? Why is wierwille sanitized from these tantrums, outbursts, character assassinations?
I know that wierwille didn't "control" way productions..........but he sure as he11 implemented a CLIMATE OF FEAR WHEN HE WALKED INTO A ROOM.
<_<
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shazdancer
Thanks, Ted, I'm glad you are weighing in. I would love to hear more about, "most of the pressure in the beginnings of Way Prod. came from leadership on the west and east coast," because you were involved in it and I was just on the outside looking in. What I saw ('71-'72) was musicians who had learned their craft before The Way inspired to sing about their Christian experience (and often, their PFAL experience).
What was going on behind the scenes, particularly when it came to choosing who was onstage and who wasn't?
(edited to fix the dates)
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Twinky
It's not just musical talent that was controlled. If anyone had any ability or talent in any direction, instead of being thankful that God has endowed us all a little differently, any talents had to be totally subjugated to TWI / PFAL thinking. Or the talented person was belittled and their ability sneered at.
I have a recollection (vague, and third or nth hand hearsay) that VPW thought the music ministry was very important for TWI. That would be the groups, not the stuff on stage.
One of my coordinators wrote a sweet song (and its music) that was very popular in the fellowship and we all loved it when she sang the song. She had been singing it for years. Then one year, around the early 90s, she went to RoA and sang on the Family Stage or some such - anyway, the song came to the attention of Way Prods. Next thing, this song had some of its lyrics changed, an extra verse was added, and it became a Way Prods song commonly sung by someone else AND they, TWI, claimed copyright. She said, gamely, that the additions had made it a better song, but she also seemed rather sad about it. She never got any credit for composing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong
See stuff from about half way down the page, and followed up in some of the articles at the bottom of the page.
Regardless of any controversy, they're still great songs, very popular in the church I now go to, very popular elsewhere, and often significant chunks of psalms set to modern music. As long as you don't mind the trinitarian bent to some of the songs...
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waysider
In my opinion, it's important to understand the difference between a producer and a director. As Ted pointed out, a producer is someone who finances an artistic endeavor. Sometimes the producer will finance an effort alone and sometimes he/she will coordinate a group of investors. Clearly, Wierwille was the producer of WP and we, through ABS, were the group of investors.
A director, on the other hand, coordinates the actual production. He/she may also delegate various aspects, such as costume design, set construction, vocal coaching, etc.The director is responsible for the artistic development and staging of the whole effort, though. As such, the director has a responsibility to deliver a satisfactory product to the producer and investors.
Sometimes the two designations will overlap. The producer may also be the director, the director may also be the choreographer and so on. Sometimes these arrangements work well. Sometimes----not so well. (slightly off-topic---Bullets Over Broadway is a hilarious movie that illustrates what happens when things don't go well.)
A successful director, like Ted, is one who knows how to elicit quality work from the performers, while still keeping the investors happy. Mighty, mighty big shoes to fill. I guess the question in my mind is how much Wierwille overstepped his function as strictly a producer. And, was he qualified to function outside of the producer role? The incident in New Bremen would seem to be such an instance. Anyway, as a producer, he did have an obligation to his investors to have at least some kind of voice in the production's development. Did he abuse that obligation by taking over the director's functions? And if he did, what are some examples in addition to the New Bremen incident?
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skyrider
Asking those questions.......is like asking if wierwille ever rode in rough-shod over walter's research department. An abusive situation doesn't necessarily mean "taking over"........just DOMINEERING.
The mog title ALWAYS trumphed any cards you were holding.
:blink:
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waysider
HaHaHaHa!
I couldn't decide which one of those "smilies" would best convey the rhetoric.
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socks
way and sky, you're much better at figuring this out than I. I'll leave it to you.
TommyZ - let's keep in touch!
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TED Ferrell
Sorry to some of you folks for having posted some of my first hand knowlege about Way Productions and VP's involvement .When push comes to shove VP was Way Productions greatest supporter.I know that no matter what I say some reply's will be yeah but.
With that said I will be moving along. Just one more truth to add, The Victors I put together beacuse VP asked me to do it for him.
That's all folks have fun and God Bless
Ted Ferrell
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skyrider
Sorry Ted.............for having posted some of MY first-hand knowledge and realities of wierwille.
Some people, no matter what you say...........will always elevate wierwille to a mog status and "spiritual pedestal" despite the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.
Some splinter groups, with associations to the wierwille kids.......like to sanitize wierwille's name and legacy.
Take care. God bless and speak the truth in love.
skyrider
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skyrider
Before exiting this thread..........I want to personally THANK ALL YOU MUSICIANS, who played and sang songs that so liberated my soul. Some of those moments, "transcended me to places on high"......to a spiritual realm of love and peace that is indescribable. Thank you.
And Ted...........thanks for all your years of heart-felt service.
But with that said, I find myself adopting much of the same viewpoints that DontWorry has so aptly stated here at GS time and time again. Clearly, he saw those early years MUCH BETTER THAN I......and yet, was able to take off those rose-colored glasses and dismantle the corruption in twi. On the "ordination thread" he shared this about his introduction into twi via his hippie musician friends:
Peace to all.
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shazdancer
Thanks, Ted. I have mostly moved along as well, but I think many people have unresolved questions about their experience with The Way International, Inc. I don't want to hype the problems up to be more than they were, but I don't want to make them out to be less, either. Let the truth set them free.
-- Shaz
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Oakspear
While it certainly is better to hear from someone like yourself who was in the thick of things, yours weren't the only set of eyes & ears present. Different conclusions can be reached by reasonable people from the same set of facts. If you expect to ride in here and say your piece without any comment from anyone and attempt to cut off discussion then you're not understanding the "discussion" part of "discussion forum".
Thanks again though for weighing in
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now I see
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the ElephantÂ
Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
MORAL.Â
So oft in theologic wars,Â
The disputants, I ween,Â
Rail on in utter ignoranceÂ
Of what each other mean,Â
And prate about an ElephantÂ
Not one of them has seen!
The Blind Men and the Elephant
John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend
To see the whole picture of what was really truth often eludes those who were close enough to 'touch' the elephant, so often perspectives are based soley on what we saw in front of us, based on our positions, our circle of friends, and those we associate with. Â To stretch and look beyond our insular point of view toward what might have been the experience of others is sometimes the hardest thing. Â VP and TWI both sowed the crops of wheat and of tares, I feel blessed to have experienced both so that my eyes have been opened.
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Sunesis
Well, I am late to the party, but I will say, socks was probably my fav Way Prod. musician - he was wonderful, and since he was a guitar player and an excellent one, I was always watching his fingers as he played his Gibson LP Custom (correct, that's what it was, wasn't it?).
When I was in high school and we'd drive to HQ for a weekend in '72, I'd go watch JN rehearse and let Ted know I wanted to be in it someday. I had been playing in "rock" bands through high school and really wanted to be in JN - as did a lot of other young people.
Then I went in the corps. I was blessed to be able to be in the corps dance band, and, also, to write music for it. Why did I write music for it? Because it was supposed to be dance/rock music - TWI didn't really have that type of music, so someone had to write it, and I've always been good with coming up with riffs, rockers, etc., so I stepped up and wrote enough to get us through, plus with others that we were able to "rock up" from Way prod recordings. It was a lot of fun.
My last year in -res, I was blessed to be picked to run - uh - "coordinate" the corps dance band. We had had an excellent dance band my first year, and so my last year, after the first rehearsal, I did not feel some of the musicians were up to speed and dismissed them and went to H*l*n S*dd*th and told her and asked for some others please. I did this because, in the "world," if a band member wasn't good enough you let him go and found someone who was. It was all done innocently enough. Well, she read me the riot act - and, of course, now, much older and wiser, I don't blame her. I got everyone back, we rehearsed and we got quite good. And I loved seeing these people come alive in a band context and really feel like there was some place in the "impersonal" corps program, where they could shine and be a part of a group that just had fun - lots of fun, no rules, no regs, no bible over the head. They may not have been as good as the first group, but I think I loved them more and had a greater time with them. Wonderful people.
When I was on staff at Emporia, me and Rick Panyard (of Good Seed fame and college division) put together the staff Dance band because quite a few staffers played, it was done by ourselves, for the fun of it. It lasted a couple of years and was also great fun.
It was all great fun because VPW was not involved. Somehow, this had all slipped under his radar.
Then I get to HQ. I said to D. Bailey, let's start a '40s big band, swing thing, the music my dad played, and I loved and grew up with, there are plenty of musicians here to do it. We rounded up people who wanted to, had a rehearsal, had fun, and it sounded great. VP gets wind of it, I later hear he's scrapped it and wants to make it some sappy dinner/supper type thing. We all said no thanks.
Then VP wants to do another country band. I was asked to play guitar, said, well, ok. I think it was with people who had been in a group called the Jordan River Ramblers - a forerunner of Way Caravan. Anyway, the bass player leaves, and I am forced to play bass. Ok, I've never played bass, played the scale for each chord, it sounded decent enough. One night, we have to show up at the Minster theater. VP is there wants to watch us play and critique us. It was awful, yells at me because I am not constantly smiling and looked at my guitar as a I was changing a chord. I was not a happy camper. Neither were the rest of the people he railed on. I told Ted, I quit, I don't care what VP thinks. VP comes and finds me next day, says I played great. I'm thinking, what kind of game is this, first you yell, then you say something opposite. I stayed a little while longer and the band shortly thereafter fell apart - thank God.
I guess my point is, when we were left to ourselves to do it, bless others and have fun, it was great. But VP took the blessing out of it. By the time I had arrived at HQ I had known for years I did not want to be in Way Prod. It seemed so stifling, it was so controlling, they also had let go some of the best talent because it seemed to me, if someone truly had "charisma" it was a threat, and they would be gone. I liked the people in Way Prod., but to me, the music was always very mediocre, except the early '70s, before VP really starting having a hand in it. From about '76 on, it did nothing for me.
Personally, VP was of a different generation. While building the ministry, he let the kids have their fun because it attracted other people to his ministry. Once it had grown, I think is when he really started clamping down and I saw some of the best musicians treated terribly.
Socks, I think as time went on, and you had left, there was a JN reunion some years later. You came back, did not have a guitar then, but I did not like the way the Way Prod people were treating you - it was an attitude they had, you were such a wonderful sweet person. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think that was the last time I saw or spoke to you.
Anyway, that was my experiences on the fringes of Way Prod. I left HQ in the early '80s, went to NYC and played metal, thrash and hardcore for a decade, from CBGB's to every club in NYC and had lots of fun...
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skyrider
Sunesis.........thanks.
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waysider
WARNING!----Not Wierwille related
Before TWI, I was very involved in music. I had played hundreds of gigs before I ever heard of PFAL. After I got in TWI, I had a Limb Leader (who had no musical background that I was aware of) try to tell me I held my microphone all wrong. He insisted I needed to shape my hand like a duck bill and hold the mic. gently so it would appear to be light in weight. I guess that's cool------------ if you want to look like you're auditioning for Lawrence Welk or something!
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socks
Sunesis, thanks. I enjoyed the time we had getting to know each other too! I enjoyed your playing too.
Sound Out '84 - yep. Or "Pound Out" as it came to be known.
Two weeks, one at the Way Nash and the second in Nashville. I'll have to get back on that one, although on the short side I could say it was The New Way Productions in high relief. Rosalie and Harve and the gang. I have nothing good to say about working with either of them at that event so I'll have to ponder how and if to express my thoughts.
I had a Gretsch and a Strat-style custom, an odd one-off guitar that playedokay but had some humbuckers - can't remember the make - but they were a good 50% louder than the standard hb. I didnt' take either one up with us from Florida. We had our two kidlings, though. :) I think they had an LP there I played, although it wasn't a Gold Top like the one I'd had you're thinking of. (wish I still had that puppy!)
You reminded me of some stuff I'll have to get back to here. Good to sEe you!! Hope all is well.
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