I hope Socks can give us some insight on this. He'd know.
I don't recall anything specific about ego and musicians. I know that many non-corps musicians were suspect as being slack and less committed to the Word than their music. For that matter, almost anyone maintaining a professional career could be accused of not being sold out to "moving the Word".
I think I found the perfect analogy after I had my colonoscopy. The anesthesia person described the drug they were giving me as something that would put me under but would leave my subconcious working so that if they told me to move my arm or something I would. In other words, "turn off my brain but leave enough working so I would do what I was told."
That's what the band experience there ended up becoming to me.
Some guy from outside the band saying what is acceptable to play?
Gees---Talk about ego problems!!!
As an artist I heard some of Weirwilles talks about musicians and artists as it was passed on through the bowels of TWI to the midmanagers and then on to me.
It tasted exactly like the sh!t that it was...I bought it for awhile and channelled most creative impulses into waythink for a long time--much too long.
To me its yet another control issue to keep followers in line and keep them from finding and developing the use of their own gifts.
I was in New Bremen one Friday, at the church that they turned into a 'cultural center'. They were putting together those 'High Country Caravans' things, and I was in the audience for the taping. Joe F*ir (from 'Pressed Down' ?) sang a song. I thought it was the one good thing on the program. Shows what I know.
Over the next couple of days it got out that Wierwille went crazy on Joe, saying he was terrible, his ego ruined the show, it was a disgrace to God, yadda yadda.
By the Sunday Night service, it was accepted 'truth' , that Joe F*ir was a disaster, spiritually screwed up, etc. Then I started hearing that he had gone on stage drunk.
If he had, I sure couldn't tell. I know he has talked about drinking issues in his life, but in this case it sounded fishy. I saw his reputation ground into the dirt overnight. And I STILL say he was the best performer on the show.
I was in New Bremen one Friday, at the church that they turned into a 'cultural center'. They were putting together those 'High Country Caravans' things, and I was in the audience for the taping. Joe F*ir (from 'Pressed Down' ?) sang a song. I thought it was the one good thing on the program. Shows what I know.
Over the next couple of days it got out that Wierwille went crazy on Joe, saying he was terrible, his ego ruined the show, it was a disgrace to God, yadda yadda.
By the Sunday Night service, it was accepted 'truth' , that Joe F*ir was a disaster, spiritually screwed up, etc. Then I started hearing that he had gone on stage drunk.
If he had, I sure couldn't tell. I know he has talked about drinking issues in his life, but in this case it sounded fishy. I saw his reputation ground into the dirt overnight. And I STILL say he was the best performer on the show.
Yeah.....I was there too.
And, like you said.....Joe's on-stage performance was one of the best that night.
Whatever set wierwille off.........it had NOTHING to do with Joe's performance.
I had just witnessed ANOTHER victster-in-charge smear campaign.
Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at driving the aspect of "performance" out of musicians and singers.
The idea is that performance takes the worship aspect out of music and puts too much emphasis on the musician/singer.
In TWI world, anything beyond singing songs would register as performance.
I think twi's "theology" as to musical presentations was kinda schizoprenic.. on one hand, we were encouraged to show appreciation, and heartily applaud (even for some pretty lame acts).. on the other hand, musicians were supposed to not have any ego, or contribute anything personal in a production?
after being beaten down enough, the performers probably really wondered what the crowd was applauding..
Stepping up to the microphone is a bit like stepping up to the plate in baseball. You have to have a certain confidence that you are about to hit one out of the park. Call it ego if you want but it is a vital part of making a connection with the audience. Some people are so incredibly talented, like Eva Cassidy, they can pull it off without that confidence. They are the exception. Taking away that confidence is like telling a right handed batter he has to bat left.
I only watched high country caravan on video. I didn't like them, but I never like hee-haw either, and they seemed like a direct rip off of the whole idea.
<snip>
In TWI world, anything beyond singing songs would register as performance.
yeah, like the SERMONS? those were just like side-show performances. talk about ego.
I vaguely remember hearing a special tape geared towards musicians in the Way ministry; Wierwille was having an informal discussion with some people (don't know who) and discussing how music had to be sublimated to the Word. If it wasn't promoting "the Word", it was essentially bogus. Somehow the discussion turned toward guitarists; he was irritated about how much time they took tuning and retuning their guitars, and he said something to the effect that they could take their guitars and shove them where the sun didn't shine. I thought, how foolish; any instrument that is plucked, bowed or hammered needs to be retuned during the course of a performance. Depending on temperature and humidity, perhaps a lot more.
But the tone of the discussion seemed (to me) to be dismissive of the people who wanted to play and bless others, regardless of their proficiency.
That tape was just another "red flag" in the series of red flags I was accumulating over the years. I came to the conclusion Mr. Wierwille may have known what he was talking about when it came to the bible, but he wasn't anything like an expert when it came to music and performance.
Of course, I have since revised my beliefs concerning his biblical expertise.
Wow what an interesting discussion... mostly for me because it gives a bit of clarity to the artist conference they held in spring of 81.
Weirwille was quite adamant that way artists should be focused on art that depicted scripture or PFAL or teachings from the ministry or to promote the ministry. The rest was just so much wasted time.
IT was annoying on several levels. One being the supplies they gave to the art department at HQ and Rome and Emporia were Crayons and construction paper.(per the Corps in charge of those departments.. who made some amazing stuff in spite of it all.) They were told they were not artists if they couldn't put together a beautiful poster with those.
IT was so limiting and cheep and such an affront I was amazed how many people put up with it. But then we all got quite adept at making up reasons why we needed to conform to VP's wishes.
Another being having your talent hobbled in such a restrictive manner.
I think it is so par for the course that he applied his same standards to the musicians who really were amazing most of them and singing and playing their hearts out, and the artists who were trying to help promote the ministry via their art.
TZ, my .02 - the Way Corps people learned their practical lessons from Dr. Weirwille by observation. Of course there were countless hours of teachings, instruction and talk but I would say that a lot of what stuck the deepest and longest were things that we saw and heard in the course of doing things together or with him.
The Way's efforts in music go way back, but most of us probably date the beginnings to '70 - '71, Ted and Mardelle, Selah, Dove, PDSTRO, Cookin' Mama, the first "Rock of Ages" concert at the Winter youth advance in '71 and the first ROA that followed in the summer of '71. In those first years there was a stock of existing musicians, bands, etc. and we were taking PFAL and checking out the Way Ministry.
I've missed a few names there, Barry ? who'd worked with Gary Puckett for awhile. Ken Mc and Dean E. of Ohio. Cookin' Mama met Tower of Power on the road, and our sax player witnessed to Skip. Others like Evan will remember some of the earlier people. Donnie Fugit, Tommy Crabb were doing their duo thing of course. There were a lot of exposures to different people - and some very odd couplings like Jerry Hahn of Kansas who was out in San Francisco and whose manager met Jim Doop. VPW had dealings with all of us in the early years and there was a lot of discussions about who was doing what and where and when, etc. Those first 2-3 years after VPW came out to California, a lot of focus was on the music of the times because that's where a lot of the people were and what they were involved in.
Ego - VPW had very specific ideas about what worked and what didn't when it came to music. Lyrically, the music, etc. etc. He didn't always get involved in the kinds of music as much as what to do with it. There was some he didn't get but overall in the earlier years the big focus was on lyrics, words, the specific literary expression in the "songs".
Early on it was pretty flexible though. When I think back to the first year of Joyful Noise in Ohio with Ted, we were writing and performing our own stuff, others stuff, some cover tunes here and there. It was going it's own course and developing on it's own.
Ted always understood the "ego" part of being a performer, musician, etc. You have to have a sense of yourself and what you're trying to do to make it work.
Collaboration is always a challenge in any endeavor. 'Way Productions" was very much a collaborative effort for a few years there. You talk about ego clashes - we didn't need VPW to do that. There were a lot of disagreements and endless discussions about everything from how to roll up a guitar cord to how a song should sound.
VPW used to get into it with us all the time and we with him but for a few years there it wasn't him sitting over the whole thing calling all the shots. "Ego" - sure. When push came to shove sometimes we'd defer to him or he to us, somebody has to make a decision and get on with it.
But in many ways the Way Productions "Joyful Noise" was a gig, a job. I'm not denigrating or taking out the "spiritual" aspect of what was being attempted but from my background, I was very familiar with working for someone, a band, a singer, as an accompaniest. Doing gigs. I'd done 100's of them by then and while I was passionate about the large scale of our goals and contributing to them I also understood the organization of being in a "band". You don't always do or get what you want.
This came out in many ways at first - Ted was a very good "band leader". He'd have a song arrangment in mind and rumble around with it on the piano and then say something like "how about some Wes Montgomery octave stuff, try that". Or "do some finger style chords, that big fat chord style". I was a guitarist, I'd give it a shot. That's what I was there to do, as well as contribute my own ideas and music. That's the way we worked. If we disagreed, we'd just try different things until we agreed on something. Or not. Disagreements never stopped a show, or else we'd all have never played. :) But for the most part we just melded all our styles and did what we did.
VPW once said "if you can learn to work with musicians you can work with the devil himself". Or maybe it was satan, one of those names.
As the years rolled on we all got an earful of what he has to say and yes - there were many times he'd raise Cain over some little bit of nothing and declare it all null and void if it didn't go his way. It could be a pain in the asz to be sure but frankly - and this may just be me - a lof that wasn't that different than many of the things I'd experienced prior, in working with people. I left the California scene for some very specific reasons, one to make a clean break from my previous drug use. I will say this - once I got off away and clean for awhile, I don't know which I'd say was worse - working with a slit eyed addict, a smoked up pot head or a bible thumping know-it-all. They all have their downsides and I've been dere done dat. But it was pretty mellow in Ohio compared to what I'd done and been through.
As to the Corps - most of those people that saw this stuff in action just saw the surface, heard the rants and the riffs and picked up on that but never knew what the he lll was really going on. So they picked up on strutting their stuff with the music and inserting their own egos where they didn't belong, like the duck-butt you dealt with. (that recording you sent me still makes me cringe at the sound of that doofus's voice).
JN went out with some of them over the years and it was quite an experience. We'd get all kinds - some that wanted to do what they thought VPW did and reset the entire operation to their own ideas. They did the "ego" accusation too, if they didn't get their way. Others worked with us and some just asked where to stand and when to do their thing. Overall it was a lot of fun and some good work was done I think. Some not so good too, but that's the way things go.
Important point: this was all done on the people's dime. The ministry's ABS paid for it over the years. In that regard I was mindful of the fact that it didn't fall off a tree magically, people worked, put in their time to do stuff and were supported by the giving of others to a great degree. It was their music and I've always felt and said, it honored the music that those people heard it. I won't ever change feeling that way about it all. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have worked with the people I did and do the things we did.
VPW and ego - in any case, if he wanted something and didn't get his way, yes. You had "an ego problem".
Sorry for the longness of this. I edited it down to make it moderately large.
when did it become proper musical etiquette to stare at the audience and smile the whole time? I heard a "teaching" about how devilish and egotistical it was to close your eyes when you play. I never looked at it that way. I just figured a musician was absorbed. everyone has different personalities after all and I couldn't see the big deal about how it worked best for them to play.
Wierwille having tantrum about drinking?!?!?! Hello kettle, this is pot. You look black to me.
I was also there that night, in New Bremen. Joe Fair did an amazing job. The "gallon of apple wine" remarks from Weirwille were nuts.
And the drunken sexual predator VPW was not performing?!?!?!
Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at driving the aspect of "performance" out of musicians and singers.
The idea is that performance takes the worship aspect out of music and puts too much emphasis on the musician/singer.
In TWI world, anything beyond singing songs would register as performance.
I was also there that night, in New Bremen. Joe Fair did an amazing job. The "gallon of apple wine" remarks from Weirwille were nuts.
Looking back, Wierwille's outbursts begin to remind me of an overtired toddler, screaming at whatever happens to be in front of him.
The fact that we didn't notice this similarity at the time was a clear symptom that we had our heads wedged where the apple wine don't shine.
YES.........it is amazing how many times wierwille got a *free pass* because he was the "mog."
And.........that's why I think that some of the early corps got tired of wierwille's hissy-fits by adv. class '79 and were distancing themselves from the whole thing (twi).
I was never part of things like this never having been Corps. But from reading what's written on this thread I think he was using "musician's ego" as an excuse. I think he was simply jealous of the attention he WASN'T getting IF any attention or appreciation was going to musicians. Maybe he didn't realize it himself -- but it sure looks like he wasn't willing to share any of the limelight or glory....[glowry]
The more I read what you guys write, the more convinced I am that he was nothing but a sleazy pig! [that sounds like an understatement]
Okay TZ, I can see more of how this is a personal issue and question for you. I forget who's in your neck of the woods, of the Corps. Shroyer's? I can't remember. As far as whatever VPW did or taught or said regarding musicians and ego, truth to tell anyone who's relying on that today needs to move on and get some current, real experience and understanding.
My own experience working with ministers and pastors has been, some do better than others at handling their work. This goes for musicians too.
One of the best run ministrys is Hillsongs. I've written about their music ministry before and I know some of us are familiar with what they do, Darlene Zschech, etc. They're not unusual today by any means.
A local church we're involved does some good music but puts the whole thing in the hands of the "band", and the band leader keeps it running. They all get paid. It's a gig, they rehearse, musicians come and go based on availability, and there's a core group that's consistent and two singers who are nearly always in. Some of the participants are well known local professional players, good people but not even full fledged members of this church. The band leader gets who needs, they play well, in tune, show up on time, don't require days to learn one song and have good hearts. Great hearts, couple I'm thinking of. And yeah, they can play their asz off if the song calls for it. The pastor's aren't getting into their stuff all the time because they assume the group knows what they're doing and will do it. And they do. The whole deal revolves around getting the music done and done well.
Your situation - I doubt the leaders really know much about what they're doing or how to do it. If they're relying on "what Dr. Weirwille" said in some distant past moment, they definitely need some current instruction and knowledge. I"m not saying that to be mean and I'm not guessing. I know what it means to show up, be handed a book of music and be expected to get to it and do it, and quickly. To do that you can't bring a lot of baggage or BS with you and your sttitude's got to be solid. And you need to know who's in charge, what your role is and what you're expected to do.
When working a band up from scratch, the same things apply. But I worked with a small church group a few years ago - these people couldn't get organized to save their lives. They needed help getting their sound system right, and asked me if I'd come in and check it out. I did and made some recommendations, no rocket science, basic sound stuff. They had people hiding behind each other because they were too shy to be up front, and then complaining they couldn't hear themselves sing. Stuff like that. They had a huge board and an amp that wasn't wired right. Speakers in the wrong place. They needed guidance from the ground up, in all categories.
So I helped and they didn't want to do what I recommended. What could I say? The pastor thought he knew more. He didn't and all I could do was tell him he was wrong. His wife led the band and used it as an opportunity to bi tch out her daughter about every little thing and lecture her about all kinds of crap that had nothing to do with the musical effort. So it sucked, big time and never got any better. But they thought there were in high "spiritual" country.
Finally they lost their bass player and asked me to fill in. I did, had to show them how to play the piano parts and structure harmonies and they tried and it sounded good for a change. Which was fine until the pastor started giving me s hit about something or other. I tried to be respectful but since he wasn't returning the gesture I finally told him to stick it. And that was that. We stopped going. I felt bad - for them. It was their loss and their problems that never got better.
Few months later they had a big mess because a bunch of the church building fund disappeared, after the pastor and his family went on a 2 week cruise vacation and the pastor couldn't explain where it went. Huh. Go figure. But he swore there wasn't a problem, as his church fell apart. They still struggle on, believe it or not, with the same "faithful" that they always had. Go figure.
When it comes to music and modern Amercian religion it can be as bad as anything the "secular industry" does, and even worse because "God" is invoked everytime someone has a bright idea.
It doesn't have to be that way though. But immature and inexperienced "leadership" will screw things up every time because they don't know how to just get the work done and do it with the same simplicity and enjoyment they would doing anything else. They insert their ego's into it and it sucks as a result.
I make no apologies for being an expert in my field. If someone doesn't want my advice or contribution, they shouldn't ask for it. Y'know? There should be give and take and a peer-group attitude when working together. Everyone won't agree but when you've got people that know what they're doing - let them do it.
I think you've got me mixed up with someone else. The point I was trying to make is that TWI doesn't have the lock on wanting to drive the ego out of musicians. In TWI's case, it could be that VPW and LCM felt that music could take something away from them. That's the only reason why I could imagine LCM wanting to take a lead role in a production. He would not like to be upstaged. Same thing with VPW. Brian Houston (Hillsong pastor) is well aware of the role music has played in growing that church. That was a deliberate move on his part, as was putting Darlene in charge of worship. The rest is history.
Music, as a tool for powerful worship, was just getting its beginning in the '70s. It had always been a part of pentecostal and charismatic worship, which made TWI an interesting experience in that it was charismatic, but very muted in how it was done - and never done to music. Tongues and those agonizingly long prayers was where people strutted their stuff in TWI. Music, especially live music, played such a minor role that there was no need to rehearse or do anything to get better, much less develop music.
My first exposure to TWI was going to hear Good Seed play at a branch gathering. That was my hook, so you can imagine how disappointed I was when I found out that things like that were the exception and not the rule.
Sorry - "TZ" = Tommy Z. My abbreviations runneth over. We've exchanged on this topic before and I feel for him.We definitely do agree on the point you made that this isn't unique to The Way, it's a common pain point in many churches, from what I've seen and heard. I do think a lot do fine though. There has to be mutual respect given though, for what people have to contribute, their time and effort and what each person gives and takes from that effort.
My two cents...Twi was an elitist organization. If you didn't hear it from twi, it was "of the world" (devilish)...this included music.
I was told by twi leaders in the 70's that Jerry Garcia was "off the word"...as well as many other fabulous musicians.
ego problems?...HA! The drambuie sucking sex predator had the biggest ego that I've ever seen...and from what I can tell, his taste in music was that of an Ohio corn farmer (if that tells you anything).
It seems to me that twi leadership hindered the creativity of some very talented musicians...but what else is new?
Tzaia, I would say that music was at least 50% of what made TWI in its heyday. Rock 'n roll loving baby boomers looking for stability heard about God in their own musical language. The Way East was a weekend destination for hundreds of rich suburban kids who felt disaffected in the '60s. The perfect hook for its time. The highlight of the whole year was the Rock of Ages. It wasn't the musicians' fault, they were just practicing their craft and expressing their hearts.
But you can't put inspiration in a box. And when Wierwille tried to control it all and be the center of attention (like when he used to upstage the performers while they were working, sheesh), he warped the language. The music stayed the centerpiece for as long as it did because the musicians were that good, and they tried to make a merger between what the MOG wanted and what they knew they could deliver professionally and personally.
When the talent left, all TWI had were empty directives, no soul.
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Tzaia
Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at dri
waysider
Stepping up to the microphone is a bit like stepping up to the plate in baseball. You have to have a certain confidence that you are about to hit one out of the park. Call it ego if you want but it is
potato
I only watched high country caravan on video. I didn't like them, but I never like hee-haw either, and they seemed like a direct rip off of the whole idea. yeah, like the SERMONS? those were just li
Jim
I hope Socks can give us some insight on this. He'd know.
I don't recall anything specific about ego and musicians. I know that many non-corps musicians were suspect as being slack and less committed to the Word than their music. For that matter, almost anyone maintaining a professional career could be accused of not being sold out to "moving the Word".
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TOMMYZ
I think I found the perfect analogy after I had my colonoscopy. The anesthesia person described the drug they were giving me as something that would put me under but would leave my subconcious working so that if they told me to move my arm or something I would. In other words, "turn off my brain but leave enough working so I would do what I was told."
That's what the band experience there ended up becoming to me.
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mstar1
Some guy from outside the band saying what is acceptable to play?
Gees---Talk about ego problems!!!
As an artist I heard some of Weirwilles talks about musicians and artists as it was passed on through the bowels of TWI to the midmanagers and then on to me.
It tasted exactly like the sh!t that it was...I bought it for awhile and channelled most creative impulses into waythink for a long time--much too long.
To me its yet another control issue to keep followers in line and keep them from finding and developing the use of their own gifts.
personally I'd be wary of a group like that---
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hiway29
I was in New Bremen one Friday, at the church that they turned into a 'cultural center'. They were putting together those 'High Country Caravans' things, and I was in the audience for the taping. Joe F*ir (from 'Pressed Down' ?) sang a song. I thought it was the one good thing on the program. Shows what I know.
Over the next couple of days it got out that Wierwille went crazy on Joe, saying he was terrible, his ego ruined the show, it was a disgrace to God, yadda yadda.
By the Sunday Night service, it was accepted 'truth' , that Joe F*ir was a disaster, spiritually screwed up, etc. Then I started hearing that he had gone on stage drunk.
If he had, I sure couldn't tell. I know he has talked about drinking issues in his life, but in this case it sounded fishy. I saw his reputation ground into the dirt overnight. And I STILL say he was the best performer on the show.
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skyrider
Yeah.....I was there too.
And, like you said.....Joe's on-stage performance was one of the best that night.
Whatever set wierwille off.........it had NOTHING to do with Joe's performance.
I had just witnessed ANOTHER victster-in-charge smear campaign.
Uugh........I should have left twi much sooner.
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Tzaia
Just to put this in perspective (not that I disagree with what happened in TWI), it is common to think of musicians as ego-centric by Christian organizations. There are people who make a living at driving the aspect of "performance" out of musicians and singers.
The idea is that performance takes the worship aspect out of music and puts too much emphasis on the musician/singer.
In TWI world, anything beyond singing songs would register as performance.
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Ham
I think twi's "theology" as to musical presentations was kinda schizoprenic.. on one hand, we were encouraged to show appreciation, and heartily applaud (even for some pretty lame acts).. on the other hand, musicians were supposed to not have any ego, or contribute anything personal in a production?
after being beaten down enough, the performers probably really wondered what the crowd was applauding..
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waysider
Stepping up to the microphone is a bit like stepping up to the plate in baseball. You have to have a certain confidence that you are about to hit one out of the park. Call it ego if you want but it is a vital part of making a connection with the audience. Some people are so incredibly talented, like Eva Cassidy, they can pull it off without that confidence. They are the exception. Taking away that confidence is like telling a right handed batter he has to bat left.
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potato
I only watched high country caravan on video. I didn't like them, but I never like hee-haw either, and they seemed like a direct rip off of the whole idea.
yeah, like the SERMONS? those were just like side-show performances. talk about ego.
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Kevlar2000
I vaguely remember hearing a special tape geared towards musicians in the Way ministry; Wierwille was having an informal discussion with some people (don't know who) and discussing how music had to be sublimated to the Word. If it wasn't promoting "the Word", it was essentially bogus. Somehow the discussion turned toward guitarists; he was irritated about how much time they took tuning and retuning their guitars, and he said something to the effect that they could take their guitars and shove them where the sun didn't shine. I thought, how foolish; any instrument that is plucked, bowed or hammered needs to be retuned during the course of a performance. Depending on temperature and humidity, perhaps a lot more.
But the tone of the discussion seemed (to me) to be dismissive of the people who wanted to play and bless others, regardless of their proficiency.
That tape was just another "red flag" in the series of red flags I was accumulating over the years. I came to the conclusion Mr. Wierwille may have known what he was talking about when it came to the bible, but he wasn't anything like an expert when it came to music and performance.
Of course, I have since revised my beliefs concerning his biblical expertise.
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leafytwiglet
Wow what an interesting discussion... mostly for me because it gives a bit of clarity to the artist conference they held in spring of 81.
Weirwille was quite adamant that way artists should be focused on art that depicted scripture or PFAL or teachings from the ministry or to promote the ministry. The rest was just so much wasted time.
IT was annoying on several levels. One being the supplies they gave to the art department at HQ and Rome and Emporia were Crayons and construction paper.(per the Corps in charge of those departments.. who made some amazing stuff in spite of it all.) They were told they were not artists if they couldn't put together a beautiful poster with those.
IT was so limiting and cheep and such an affront I was amazed how many people put up with it. But then we all got quite adept at making up reasons why we needed to conform to VP's wishes.
Another being having your talent hobbled in such a restrictive manner.
I think it is so par for the course that he applied his same standards to the musicians who really were amazing most of them and singing and playing their hearts out, and the artists who were trying to help promote the ministry via their art.
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notinKansasanymore
I was also there that night, in New Bremen. Joe Fair did an amazing job. The "gallon of apple wine" remarks from Weirwille were nuts.
Looking back, Wierwille's outbursts begin to remind me of an overtired toddler, screaming at whatever happens to be in front of him.
The fact that we didn't notice this similarity at the time was a clear symptom that we had our heads wedged where the apple wine don't shine.
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socks
TZ, my .02 - the Way Corps people learned their practical lessons from Dr. Weirwille by observation. Of course there were countless hours of teachings, instruction and talk but I would say that a lot of what stuck the deepest and longest were things that we saw and heard in the course of doing things together or with him.
The Way's efforts in music go way back, but most of us probably date the beginnings to '70 - '71, Ted and Mardelle, Selah, Dove, PDSTRO, Cookin' Mama, the first "Rock of Ages" concert at the Winter youth advance in '71 and the first ROA that followed in the summer of '71. In those first years there was a stock of existing musicians, bands, etc. and we were taking PFAL and checking out the Way Ministry.
I've missed a few names there, Barry ? who'd worked with Gary Puckett for awhile. Ken Mc and Dean E. of Ohio. Cookin' Mama met Tower of Power on the road, and our sax player witnessed to Skip. Others like Evan will remember some of the earlier people. Donnie Fugit, Tommy Crabb were doing their duo thing of course. There were a lot of exposures to different people - and some very odd couplings like Jerry Hahn of Kansas who was out in San Francisco and whose manager met Jim Doop. VPW had dealings with all of us in the early years and there was a lot of discussions about who was doing what and where and when, etc. Those first 2-3 years after VPW came out to California, a lot of focus was on the music of the times because that's where a lot of the people were and what they were involved in.
Ego - VPW had very specific ideas about what worked and what didn't when it came to music. Lyrically, the music, etc. etc. He didn't always get involved in the kinds of music as much as what to do with it. There was some he didn't get but overall in the earlier years the big focus was on lyrics, words, the specific literary expression in the "songs".
Early on it was pretty flexible though. When I think back to the first year of Joyful Noise in Ohio with Ted, we were writing and performing our own stuff, others stuff, some cover tunes here and there. It was going it's own course and developing on it's own.
Ted always understood the "ego" part of being a performer, musician, etc. You have to have a sense of yourself and what you're trying to do to make it work.
Collaboration is always a challenge in any endeavor. 'Way Productions" was very much a collaborative effort for a few years there. You talk about ego clashes - we didn't need VPW to do that. There were a lot of disagreements and endless discussions about everything from how to roll up a guitar cord to how a song should sound.
VPW used to get into it with us all the time and we with him but for a few years there it wasn't him sitting over the whole thing calling all the shots. "Ego" - sure. When push came to shove sometimes we'd defer to him or he to us, somebody has to make a decision and get on with it.
But in many ways the Way Productions "Joyful Noise" was a gig, a job. I'm not denigrating or taking out the "spiritual" aspect of what was being attempted but from my background, I was very familiar with working for someone, a band, a singer, as an accompaniest. Doing gigs. I'd done 100's of them by then and while I was passionate about the large scale of our goals and contributing to them I also understood the organization of being in a "band". You don't always do or get what you want.
This came out in many ways at first - Ted was a very good "band leader". He'd have a song arrangment in mind and rumble around with it on the piano and then say something like "how about some Wes Montgomery octave stuff, try that". Or "do some finger style chords, that big fat chord style". I was a guitarist, I'd give it a shot. That's what I was there to do, as well as contribute my own ideas and music. That's the way we worked. If we disagreed, we'd just try different things until we agreed on something. Or not. Disagreements never stopped a show, or else we'd all have never played. :) But for the most part we just melded all our styles and did what we did.
VPW once said "if you can learn to work with musicians you can work with the devil himself". Or maybe it was satan, one of those names.
As the years rolled on we all got an earful of what he has to say and yes - there were many times he'd raise Cain over some little bit of nothing and declare it all null and void if it didn't go his way. It could be a pain in the asz to be sure but frankly - and this may just be me - a lof that wasn't that different than many of the things I'd experienced prior, in working with people. I left the California scene for some very specific reasons, one to make a clean break from my previous drug use. I will say this - once I got off away and clean for awhile, I don't know which I'd say was worse - working with a slit eyed addict, a smoked up pot head or a bible thumping know-it-all. They all have their downsides and I've been dere done dat. But it was pretty mellow in Ohio compared to what I'd done and been through.
As to the Corps - most of those people that saw this stuff in action just saw the surface, heard the rants and the riffs and picked up on that but never knew what the he lll was really going on. So they picked up on strutting their stuff with the music and inserting their own egos where they didn't belong, like the duck-butt you dealt with. (that recording you sent me still makes me cringe at the sound of that doofus's voice).
JN went out with some of them over the years and it was quite an experience. We'd get all kinds - some that wanted to do what they thought VPW did and reset the entire operation to their own ideas. They did the "ego" accusation too, if they didn't get their way. Others worked with us and some just asked where to stand and when to do their thing. Overall it was a lot of fun and some good work was done I think. Some not so good too, but that's the way things go.
Important point: this was all done on the people's dime. The ministry's ABS paid for it over the years. In that regard I was mindful of the fact that it didn't fall off a tree magically, people worked, put in their time to do stuff and were supported by the giving of others to a great degree. It was their music and I've always felt and said, it honored the music that those people heard it. I won't ever change feeling that way about it all. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have worked with the people I did and do the things we did.
VPW and ego - in any case, if he wanted something and didn't get his way, yes. You had "an ego problem".
Sorry for the longness of this. I edited it down to make it moderately large.
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potato
when did it become proper musical etiquette to stare at the audience and smile the whole time? I heard a "teaching" about how devilish and egotistical it was to close your eyes when you play. I never looked at it that way. I just figured a musician was absorbed. everyone has different personalities after all and I couldn't see the big deal about how it worked best for them to play.
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RumRunner
Wierwille having tantrum about drinking?!?!?! Hello kettle, this is pot. You look black to me.
And the drunken sexual predator VPW was not performing?!?!?!
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skyrider
YES.........it is amazing how many times wierwille got a *free pass* because he was the "mog."
And.........that's why I think that some of the early corps got tired of wierwille's hissy-fits by adv. class '79 and were distancing themselves from the whole thing (twi).
<_<
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krys
I was never part of things like this never having been Corps. But from reading what's written on this thread I think he was using "musician's ego" as an excuse. I think he was simply jealous of the attention he WASN'T getting IF any attention or appreciation was going to musicians. Maybe he didn't realize it himself -- but it sure looks like he wasn't willing to share any of the limelight or glory....[glowry]
The more I read what you guys write, the more convinced I am that he was nothing but a sleazy pig! [that sounds like an understatement]
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socks
Okay TZ, I can see more of how this is a personal issue and question for you. I forget who's in your neck of the woods, of the Corps. Shroyer's? I can't remember. As far as whatever VPW did or taught or said regarding musicians and ego, truth to tell anyone who's relying on that today needs to move on and get some current, real experience and understanding.
My own experience working with ministers and pastors has been, some do better than others at handling their work. This goes for musicians too.
One of the best run ministrys is Hillsongs. I've written about their music ministry before and I know some of us are familiar with what they do, Darlene Zschech, etc. They're not unusual today by any means.
A local church we're involved does some good music but puts the whole thing in the hands of the "band", and the band leader keeps it running. They all get paid. It's a gig, they rehearse, musicians come and go based on availability, and there's a core group that's consistent and two singers who are nearly always in. Some of the participants are well known local professional players, good people but not even full fledged members of this church. The band leader gets who needs, they play well, in tune, show up on time, don't require days to learn one song and have good hearts. Great hearts, couple I'm thinking of. And yeah, they can play their asz off if the song calls for it. The pastor's aren't getting into their stuff all the time because they assume the group knows what they're doing and will do it. And they do. The whole deal revolves around getting the music done and done well.
Your situation - I doubt the leaders really know much about what they're doing or how to do it. If they're relying on "what Dr. Weirwille" said in some distant past moment, they definitely need some current instruction and knowledge. I"m not saying that to be mean and I'm not guessing. I know what it means to show up, be handed a book of music and be expected to get to it and do it, and quickly. To do that you can't bring a lot of baggage or BS with you and your sttitude's got to be solid. And you need to know who's in charge, what your role is and what you're expected to do.
When working a band up from scratch, the same things apply. But I worked with a small church group a few years ago - these people couldn't get organized to save their lives. They needed help getting their sound system right, and asked me if I'd come in and check it out. I did and made some recommendations, no rocket science, basic sound stuff. They had people hiding behind each other because they were too shy to be up front, and then complaining they couldn't hear themselves sing. Stuff like that. They had a huge board and an amp that wasn't wired right. Speakers in the wrong place. They needed guidance from the ground up, in all categories.
So I helped and they didn't want to do what I recommended. What could I say? The pastor thought he knew more. He didn't and all I could do was tell him he was wrong. His wife led the band and used it as an opportunity to bi tch out her daughter about every little thing and lecture her about all kinds of crap that had nothing to do with the musical effort. So it sucked, big time and never got any better. But they thought there were in high "spiritual" country.
Finally they lost their bass player and asked me to fill in. I did, had to show them how to play the piano parts and structure harmonies and they tried and it sounded good for a change. Which was fine until the pastor started giving me s hit about something or other. I tried to be respectful but since he wasn't returning the gesture I finally told him to stick it. And that was that. We stopped going. I felt bad - for them. It was their loss and their problems that never got better.
Few months later they had a big mess because a bunch of the church building fund disappeared, after the pastor and his family went on a 2 week cruise vacation and the pastor couldn't explain where it went. Huh. Go figure. But he swore there wasn't a problem, as his church fell apart. They still struggle on, believe it or not, with the same "faithful" that they always had. Go figure.
When it comes to music and modern Amercian religion it can be as bad as anything the "secular industry" does, and even worse because "God" is invoked everytime someone has a bright idea.
It doesn't have to be that way though. But immature and inexperienced "leadership" will screw things up every time because they don't know how to just get the work done and do it with the same simplicity and enjoyment they would doing anything else. They insert their ego's into it and it sucks as a result.
I make no apologies for being an expert in my field. If someone doesn't want my advice or contribution, they shouldn't ask for it. Y'know? There should be give and take and a peer-group attitude when working together. Everyone won't agree but when you've got people that know what they're doing - let them do it.
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shazdancer
Whoa, socks, you told a pastor to go stick it??? Too bad I wasn't there -- I woulda sold tickets. :D
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Tzaia
Socks,
I think you've got me mixed up with someone else. The point I was trying to make is that TWI doesn't have the lock on wanting to drive the ego out of musicians. In TWI's case, it could be that VPW and LCM felt that music could take something away from them. That's the only reason why I could imagine LCM wanting to take a lead role in a production. He would not like to be upstaged. Same thing with VPW. Brian Houston (Hillsong pastor) is well aware of the role music has played in growing that church. That was a deliberate move on his part, as was putting Darlene in charge of worship. The rest is history.
Music, as a tool for powerful worship, was just getting its beginning in the '70s. It had always been a part of pentecostal and charismatic worship, which made TWI an interesting experience in that it was charismatic, but very muted in how it was done - and never done to music. Tongues and those agonizingly long prayers was where people strutted their stuff in TWI. Music, especially live music, played such a minor role that there was no need to rehearse or do anything to get better, much less develop music.
My first exposure to TWI was going to hear Good Seed play at a branch gathering. That was my hook, so you can imagine how disappointed I was when I found out that things like that were the exception and not the rule.
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socks
Sorry - "TZ" = Tommy Z. My abbreviations runneth over. We've exchanged on this topic before and I feel for him.We definitely do agree on the point you made that this isn't unique to The Way, it's a common pain point in many churches, from what I've seen and heard. I do think a lot do fine though. There has to be mutual respect given though, for what people have to contribute, their time and effort and what each person gives and takes from that effort.
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oenophile
I heard it said that WP was artistically limited with what they could do because it was taught that minor chords were "devilish". Any truth?
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GrouchoMarxJr
My two cents...Twi was an elitist organization. If you didn't hear it from twi, it was "of the world" (devilish)...this included music.
I was told by twi leaders in the 70's that Jerry Garcia was "off the word"...as well as many other fabulous musicians.
ego problems?...HA! The drambuie sucking sex predator had the biggest ego that I've ever seen...and from what I can tell, his taste in music was that of an Ohio corn farmer (if that tells you anything).
It seems to me that twi leadership hindered the creativity of some very talented musicians...but what else is new?
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shazdancer
Tzaia, I would say that music was at least 50% of what made TWI in its heyday. Rock 'n roll loving baby boomers looking for stability heard about God in their own musical language. The Way East was a weekend destination for hundreds of rich suburban kids who felt disaffected in the '60s. The perfect hook for its time. The highlight of the whole year was the Rock of Ages. It wasn't the musicians' fault, they were just practicing their craft and expressing their hearts.
But you can't put inspiration in a box. And when Wierwille tried to control it all and be the center of attention (like when he used to upstage the performers while they were working, sheesh), he warped the language. The music stayed the centerpiece for as long as it did because the musicians were that good, and they tried to make a merger between what the MOG wanted and what they knew they could deliver professionally and personally.
When the talent left, all TWI had were empty directives, no soul.
IMHO,
Shaz
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