Does the idea of returning to PFAL (whatever that means to you) include going back to the "original ministry" as the way things once were in TWI? Does that mean going back to a complicated, messy way of life and living? What if I suggest and put forth the idea to you it does not?
how did things used to be? what do you mean?
twi was simple for me, not complicated. Sit down, shut up, good boy.
Well, *return to pfal* connotes something very distasteful to me....scriptures being made to say anything a person damned well pleases. PFAL seems to be like the gateway *drug* of twi involvement....The seemingly harmless lead into the abusive teachings ... the justification for mistreatment and evil actions. It was the first step down a very dark path.
PFAL was the first step leading away from God. I`d not want to ever go back to that dark and lonely period.
Where I remember it was in residence in the Corps, we were told to "master" Piffle, get back to the word, and also told we were'nt doing a good job of it after 6 months of endless piffle reviews. Â It was all so nebulous, with no clarification, no direction, no explaination of the problems the ministry faced or where they came from or what they were, just that we had to get back to the verd!!! Â Try being sent out on the field after all this great training. Â They had no clue, they couldn't handle the training for what they proposed the corps to be.
It was all a slight of hand shell game, the whole piffle material, classes, books, seminars, tapes, and much of the teachings from twi are bereft of authority and sound biblical training, education, heart, love, honesty, care of people, with little understanding of our relationship to Jesus and God Almighty and salvation.
The best thing anyone can do is throw the whole kit and kaboodle out in the garbage or burn them in the nearest fireplace.
There is a poster on GSC who highly favors the idea of everyone who was ever involved in TWI should "return to PFAL". The reason I believe his message is a "hard sell" here is because for most people at GSC they immediately get the impression this means and also includes: "going back to WPW's "original ministry."
Most people I know consider the bible to be a very complicated book and discussing the bible makes them (and others) feel uncomfortable. I believe the reason for that is because life itself is very complicated and messy, and the bible addresses these areas of life. Of course there were problems with VPW's "original ministry" because any ministry is made up of people who have problems that are also complicated and messy.
I believe the biggest part of the problem with and in TWI is many people looked solely to VPW as the MOG who could fix all these complicated and messy areas of their life. I think that is still the biggest part of the problem in TWI today - people who are still in TWI are looking to a MOG (or rather a WOG now) to fix their complicated messy life.
Does the idea of returning to PFAL (whatever that means to you) include going back to the "original ministry" as the way things once were in TWI? Does that mean going back to a complicated, messy way of life and living? What if I suggest and put forth the idea to you it does not?
That was a very gentle post and I'm happy to add my input.
I think you completely underestimate the scope of the lies, destruction, and manipulation that was at the root of Wierwille's TWI.
Since I feel that, I also feel that the answers that you have worked out for yourself and consequently promote to others (It is a free country after all.) really don't address the true scope of TWI problems at all.
I blame nobody for running away from TWI and staying away.
I think those that are still involved in TWI are deliberately suckered by top leadership.
In my attempt to answer your last question I cannot get past my opinion that you have not seemed to face the sin, the mess, and the life destroying complications that came as Wierwille's fruit.
Even for me who had a relatively good experience while I was in TWI.
I could not go back.
Not when I now know how it was put together, and how much evil was there in the hearts and minds of not only the Founder but a majority of the top leadership. Even if I could look past that I could not look past the rapes , the deaths, the cavalier treatment of God's children.
For most people the thing that got them involved in TWI was an interest in studying God's word and a desire to serve God.
TWI pretended to offer that to us but really it was just an intricate scheme to get our money.
The primary purpose of PFAL was not to teach the Bible, but to drag people away from whatever Binle teaching they had before so they would obey and send money to VPW himself. PFAL was all about self-promotion.
For example, a few sessions taught very basic, universally known principles of BIble interpretation, such as interpret the verse in its context.
But all the examples VP used were oddities, like 4 crucified. The purpose was to get people to think, "hey, VP is the only Teacher in the world who knows this stuff, everybody else is stuck in tradition.... so let follow VPW and send him money!
The irony is, though people were told to beleve that VP and TWI were the only source of truth.... VPW was actually reading straight out of his Bullinger Bible during PFAL. The plagiarist poses as the MOG with revelation.
So going back to PFAL is going back to VPW's self-aggrandizing.
For example, a few sessions taught very basic, universally known principles of BIble interpretation, such as interpret the verse in its context.
But all the examples VP used were oddities, like 4 crucified. The purpose was to get people to think, "hey, VP is the only Teacher in the world who knows this stuff, everybody else is stuck in tradition.... so let follow VPW and send him money!
Keeping this in context, the "oddities" were used as you said - to make us wonder about all of the things we were taught as kids. If mainstream churches couldn't get how many crucified, the number of magi straight, and how old Jesus was when the magi appeared, what else were they getting wrong? At the time it seemed pretty sobering and I remember thinking that perhaps mainstream Christianity was doing a disservice to the believers.
I guess we were supposed to be so grateful for being enlightened that we would gladly give 15% of our gross income or become indentured servants for life (and give 15%). I just never saw it that way. I do not know how many were tithers or abundant sharing at the 15% level, but it appeared that the deeper (higher) you were in the organizational structure, the notion that you could choose your level of giving was less likely.
Who really cares how many were crucified, or the magi numbers or when Jesus was crucified if you can`t get straight *Love God and Love your neighbor*?
I think we were taught to believe it was a huge hairy deal because it distracted us from our actual responsibilities as Christians...I think that we were taught to be disdainful of churches and other Christians so that we wouldn`t get cloes enough to see how a genuine person who is of the spirit lives.
Wierwille knew to distance us from outside influence that could give us perspective and balance. He needed us to believe that his teachings were important enough to stick around through all of the crap.....
Old wierwille got right the one thing....if you weren`t familiar with the genuine... one was not easily able to identify the counterfit.
Once familiar with the genuine, the counterfit is a pi$$ poor substitute.
There is a poster on GSC who highly favors the idea of everyone who was ever involved in TWI should "return to PFAL". The reason I believe his message is a "hard sell" here is because for most people at GSC they immediately get the impression this means and also includes: "going back to WPW's "original ministry."
No, it's a hard sell for many reasons, partly because that PARTICULAR poster's idea of "returning to pfal"
includes taking books that have KNOWN, DEMONSTRATED imperfections and errors, and treating them as if INSTEAD
they are PERFECT and are given by God Almighty, so good JC himself will read from them and teach us from
the Orange Book HIMSELF.
That's a hard sell anywhere because it's a pile of nonsense.
Most people I know consider the bible to be a very complicated book and discussing the bible makes them (and others) feel uncomfortable. I believe the reason for that is because life itself is very complicated and messy, and the bible addresses these areas of life. Of course there were problems with VPW's "original ministry" because any ministry is made up of people who have problems that are also complicated and messy.
The man set out to treat serving God as a CAREER, not a holy calling, from the beginning.
Whenever possible, he set out to increase his audience, and to find something newer and better to SELL.
When he found material he could SELL, he did so, lying about its origins as he saw fit.
Meanwhile, the money meant for God went to feed the lusts of his flesh- alcohol, tobacco
and the lusts of his eyes- a plane, a FLEET of motorcycles.
(Not to mention setting up specific places and orchestrating the manipulation of women into having
sex with them, even to the point of drugging them if they were unwilling.)
This "ministry" was founded by a man who used The Ministry as an excuse to feed and sate his lusts.
Some might see this as "complicated", but I think that's pretty straightforward.
I do agree, however, it is "messy."
I believe the biggest part of the problem with and in TWI is many people looked solely to VPW as the MOG who could fix all these complicated and messy areas of their life. I think that is still the biggest part of the problem in TWI today - people who are still in TWI are looking to a MOG (or rather a WOG now) to fix their complicated messy life.
It's certainly what "THE Teacher" wanted people to think, and what twi wants people to think now.
However, the problems in my life have never been worthy to be compared to the rapes,
simony and other felonies comitted by "The Teacher", so that's never been a motivator for me,
even when I had no knowledge of his crimes.
twi, however, had-and has- many problems. Chief among them is their POOR PERFORMANCE as a Christian
organization, all while prating loudly of their superiority.
Does the idea of returning to PFAL (whatever that means to you) include going back to the "original ministry" as the way things once were in TWI?
Depends on who's running the advertisement.
FEW of us (but still SOME of us) want to turn back the clock and live in the "original twi ministry",
knowing what we know now.
Does that mean going back to a complicated, messy way of life and living?
It might.
In any event, it will involve elevating error-ridden doctrines and demonstrably-harmful practices to the level
of Divine Edict once again. Almost all of us are quite done with being that stupid as to fall for it.
What if I suggest and put forth the idea to you it does not?
I'd suggest and put forth that the PARTICULAR poster who asked you to cut-and-paste his advertisement
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oldiesman
Some folks won't because of VPW sins. Me, I'd like to have all the sessions on my iPod for present and future reference. :o :D
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waysider
May I presume you've never taken the time to give an honest look at Actual Errors in PFAL?
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Bolshevik
That type of thing has been proposed to the current BOD. It was struck down immediately.
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oldiesman
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Bolshevik
how did things used to be? what do you mean?
twi was simple for me, not complicated. Sit down, shut up, good boy.
What new idea do you propose?
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Mark Clarke
That says it all. Sins of the Teacher aside, much of the actual doctrine has been proven faulty.
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rascal
Well, *return to pfal* connotes something very distasteful to me....scriptures being made to say anything a person damned well pleases. PFAL seems to be like the gateway *drug* of twi involvement....The seemingly harmless lead into the abusive teachings ... the justification for mistreatment and evil actions. It was the first step down a very dark path.
PFAL was the first step leading away from God. I`d not want to ever go back to that dark and lonely period.
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cheranne
Its like the movie Return to Oz
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now I see
Where I remember it was in residence in the Corps, we were told to "master" Piffle, get back to the word, and also told we were'nt doing a good job of it after 6 months of endless piffle reviews. Â It was all so nebulous, with no clarification, no direction, no explaination of the problems the ministry faced or where they came from or what they were, just that we had to get back to the verd!!! Â Try being sent out on the field after all this great training. Â They had no clue, they couldn't handle the training for what they proposed the corps to be.
It was all a slight of hand shell game, the whole piffle material, classes, books, seminars, tapes, and much of the teachings from twi are bereft of authority and sound biblical training, education, heart, love, honesty, care of people, with little understanding of our relationship to Jesus and God Almighty and salvation.
The best thing anyone can do is throw the whole kit and kaboodle out in the garbage or burn them in the nearest fireplace.
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krys
It would be like returning to my own vomit!
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JeffSjo
That was a very gentle post and I'm happy to add my input.
I think you completely underestimate the scope of the lies, destruction, and manipulation that was at the root of Wierwille's TWI.
Since I feel that, I also feel that the answers that you have worked out for yourself and consequently promote to others (It is a free country after all.) really don't address the true scope of TWI problems at all.
I blame nobody for running away from TWI and staying away.
I think those that are still involved in TWI are deliberately suckered by top leadership.
In my attempt to answer your last question I cannot get past my opinion that you have not seemed to face the sin, the mess, and the life destroying complications that came as Wierwille's fruit.
But I am going to consider it further.
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rascal
Well said Krys
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potato
I don't want to go back to something I've moved on from.
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dmiller
Where is pfal besides twi, eh??
Returning to one necessitates returning to the other.
Not too hard to figure out if you ask me.
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leafytwiglet
Even for me who had a relatively good experience while I was in TWI.
I could not go back.
Not when I now know how it was put together, and how much evil was there in the hearts and minds of not only the Founder but a majority of the top leadership. Even if I could look past that I could not look past the rapes , the deaths, the cavalier treatment of God's children.
For most people the thing that got them involved in TWI was an interest in studying God's word and a desire to serve God.
TWI pretended to offer that to us but really it was just an intricate scheme to get our money.
No I will never go back.
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dmiller
Perhaps you can tell us *What It Is Not*.
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johnj
The primary purpose of PFAL was not to teach the Bible, but to drag people away from whatever Binle teaching they had before so they would obey and send money to VPW himself. PFAL was all about self-promotion.
For example, a few sessions taught very basic, universally known principles of BIble interpretation, such as interpret the verse in its context.
But all the examples VP used were oddities, like 4 crucified. The purpose was to get people to think, "hey, VP is the only Teacher in the world who knows this stuff, everybody else is stuck in tradition.... so let follow VPW and send him money!
The irony is, though people were told to beleve that VP and TWI were the only source of truth.... VPW was actually reading straight out of his Bullinger Bible during PFAL. The plagiarist poses as the MOG with revelation.
So going back to PFAL is going back to VPW's self-aggrandizing.
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Tzaia
Keeping this in context, the "oddities" were used as you said - to make us wonder about all of the things we were taught as kids. If mainstream churches couldn't get how many crucified, the number of magi straight, and how old Jesus was when the magi appeared, what else were they getting wrong? At the time it seemed pretty sobering and I remember thinking that perhaps mainstream Christianity was doing a disservice to the believers.
I guess we were supposed to be so grateful for being enlightened that we would gladly give 15% of our gross income or become indentured servants for life (and give 15%). I just never saw it that way. I do not know how many were tithers or abundant sharing at the 15% level, but it appeared that the deeper (higher) you were in the organizational structure, the notion that you could choose your level of giving was less likely.
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rascal
Who really cares how many were crucified, or the magi numbers or when Jesus was crucified if you can`t get straight *Love God and Love your neighbor*?
I think we were taught to believe it was a huge hairy deal because it distracted us from our actual responsibilities as Christians...I think that we were taught to be disdainful of churches and other Christians so that we wouldn`t get cloes enough to see how a genuine person who is of the spirit lives.
Wierwille knew to distance us from outside influence that could give us perspective and balance. He needed us to believe that his teachings were important enough to stick around through all of the crap.....
Old wierwille got right the one thing....if you weren`t familiar with the genuine... one was not easily able to identify the counterfit.
Once familiar with the genuine, the counterfit is a pi$$ poor substitute.
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WordWolf
No, it's a hard sell for many reasons, partly because that PARTICULAR poster's idea of "returning to pfal"
includes taking books that have KNOWN, DEMONSTRATED imperfections and errors, and treating them as if INSTEAD
they are PERFECT and are given by God Almighty, so good JC himself will read from them and teach us from
the Orange Book HIMSELF.
That's a hard sell anywhere because it's a pile of nonsense.
The man set out to treat serving God as a CAREER, not a holy calling, from the beginning.
Whenever possible, he set out to increase his audience, and to find something newer and better to SELL.
When he found material he could SELL, he did so, lying about its origins as he saw fit.
Meanwhile, the money meant for God went to feed the lusts of his flesh- alcohol, tobacco
and the lusts of his eyes- a plane, a FLEET of motorcycles.
(Not to mention setting up specific places and orchestrating the manipulation of women into having
sex with them, even to the point of drugging them if they were unwilling.)
This "ministry" was founded by a man who used The Ministry as an excuse to feed and sate his lusts.
Some might see this as "complicated", but I think that's pretty straightforward.
I do agree, however, it is "messy."
It's certainly what "THE Teacher" wanted people to think, and what twi wants people to think now.
However, the problems in my life have never been worthy to be compared to the rapes,
simony and other felonies comitted by "The Teacher", so that's never been a motivator for me,
even when I had no knowledge of his crimes.
twi, however, had-and has- many problems. Chief among them is their POOR PERFORMANCE as a Christian
organization, all while prating loudly of their superiority.
Depends on who's running the advertisement.
FEW of us (but still SOME of us) want to turn back the clock and live in the "original twi ministry",
knowing what we know now.
It might.
In any event, it will involve elevating error-ridden doctrines and demonstrably-harmful practices to the level
of Divine Edict once again. Almost all of us are quite done with being that stupid as to fall for it.
I'd suggest and put forth that the PARTICULAR poster who asked you to cut-and-paste his advertisement
FOR him do his OWN dirty work.
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waysider
Might as well do an infomercial for buggy whips.
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cheranne
sit. walk . stand. (it's a dogs life!)
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cheranne
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