Although I'm a big believer in getting as much education as you can, there are people who beat the odds and succeed despite their lack of it. The next time you pass a Wendy's Restaurant, think of R. David Thomas.
While of course there are numerous individual records of success without a HS diploma, especially in the past, overall this statistic should be considered:
A study by the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics found that the full-time workers who get a high school diploma or GED are 37.5% less likely to be unemployed than workers with less education.
In a time of a recovering economy, who do you think will be the first to be rehired?
Despite a few exceptions, most people that drop out of high school don't make it anywhere, or have to go through extra trouble to get their GED. I think dropping out of high school is a failure both in the individual who chose to drop out, and their family/neighborhood/whatever support structure they have in place.
Our nation needs to get to a point where dropping out of high school is more embarrassing and the person is more stigmatized than if they were an overweight, black, gay, atheist, vegan man with bucked teeth named Suzy Bin Laden.
If I had a child that dropped out of high school, I would consider myself to be a total failure as a parent. There is simply no valid reason to drop out. It's free, it's not that difficult, and if you need to work at the same time you can.
Thanks for that list Shell. If anybody could find it fast it would be you :).
I have mixed feelings about this too. Although judging from a quick scan of the people on that list, I believe they would have been successful even if they had finished high school and/or college. The same is true of many other individuals who are not quite so famous. I think it's also important to state that "education" is not the same thing as a diploma. Additionally, many excellent kinds of employment don't require those kinds of diplomas.
IMO the single biggest reason why kids quit high school before graduation is that the "education" doesn't serve the students. I don't believe in pandering to them, but by serving the students I mean things that they need or want to know. One of the biggest mistakes made in high schools was removing the non-academic programs. Auto shop, print shop etc. But - there are a number of other things that contribute to the very high rate of student drop out. In many places it is close to 50%. I don't know about today, but a few years ago, Boston was a smidge over 50% drop out rate.
Weeelll, I think of Ruth Simmons. Shortly after she became the first black president of an Ivy League school (Brown University) she was on 60 Minutes. She said something I will never forget..... you don't go to college so you can get a job. You go to learn.
She is one person I so immensely admire and respect. One day I will meet her, talk, and thank her. She is inspiring.
As I have told my children, you can choose whatever job you want....BUT you WILL get an education. You can lose a lot of things in life. Your education is the one thing no one can ever take away from you.
I think one of the reasons he said it was to increase our competitiveness as a country internationally, and continue as a country to be trailblazers of invention in all fields. I believe he also wants the poorest among us to improve their lives. With so many in all fields unemployed right now and with whole industries tanking, going back to school or getting a degree is what many need to get new jobs. Many people would like to go into new or second careers later in life, any assistance from the govt would be helpful. He also tagged on community service participation and giving back would be tied into affordable govt education programs....interesting stuff, I would go for that.
I think one of the reasons he said it was to increase our competitiveness as a country internationally, and continue as a country to be trailblazers of invention in all fields. I believe he also wants the poorest among us to improve their lives. With so many in all fields unemployed right now and with whole industries tanking, going back to school or getting a degree is what many need to get new jobs. Many people would like to go into new or second careers later in life, any assistance from the govt would be helpful. He also tagged on community service participation and giving back would be tied into affordable govt education programs....interesting stuff, I would go for that.
I G O T B H O. Pearls before swine. Dog's returning to their vomit. That's what's being offered.
Sadly -- that's what's being accepted by mainstream USA. :(
If you quit school, you have less chance of making money later on that he and his cronies can tax.
I think that's what he meant to say, but was being *politically correct* about it. :) :unsure:
So what you are saying is that you want American kids to drop out of high school?
I think one of the reasons he said it was to increase our competitiveness as a country internationally, and continue as a country to be trailblazers of invention in all fields. I believe he also wants the poorest among us to improve their lives. With so many in all fields unemployed right now and with whole industries tanking, going back to school or getting a degree is what many need to get new jobs. Many people would like to go into new or second careers later in life, any assistance from the govt would be helpful. He also tagged on community service participation and giving back would be tied into affordable govt education programs....interesting stuff, I would go for that.
I agree, and am amazed at how our nation, as opposed to nations like China and India, seem to hate education and intelligent people so much. I expect countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia to demonize educators and ridicule intelligent people and instead admire brutish, stupid people. We need to make our country a place again where kids grow up wanting to be doctors and scientists rather than professional athletes.
Education is a great thing. I think people should take advantage of as many educational opportunities as they can. Go to college if you can, even if it's community college. The purpose of college, after all, is to learn HOW to learn. You can do that at community college. With that said, though, formal education is not for everyone. One development that I have personally been witnessing lately is that employers are much more focused on what an employee can immediately contribute as opposed to assigning a value to a list of credentials. This is especially true in the trades and blue collar sector. People who have hands on skills seem to be able to find work easier than those with advanced degrees. I know of one PhD (engineering) who lost all his long term consulting contracts as a result of an economic downturn for his clients.
And it's somewhat of a misconception that high school is free. In parts of rural Ohio, for example, student busing ceases at the high school level. High school students are expected to find their own way to school. Some of these kids live 5 and 6 miles away from the nearest high school. You simple can't walk or ride a bike down these dangerous country roads. There is no public transit. The kids have to pay other kids to transport them, get part time jobs to pay for their own transportation or rely on Mom and Dad . Many school districts have instituted a "pay to play" policy for sports, arts and other extra curricular activities. These activities are a vital part of a well rounded educational program. Many parents simply can't afford to keep their kids in these programs. Some of the urban areas are instituting dress codes that require the students to wear uniforms. These uniforms are not for street wear. I'm not judging the value of these uniform policies, I'm simply saying this is an added expense for cash strapped parents. None of this is meant to imply justification for dropping out of high school. My point is simply that school is not really "free".
There are so many variables and individual situations, I just don't see where one blanket statement can sum it all up.
There is no general wide brush to paint the picture. I know several people have succeeded without an education.
How many people have failed and ended up on welfare, in jail or having their earning levels stalled at the poverty level because they are uneducated? and what is the percentage between the two?
In that way they do become more of a burden than a contribution to the country.
Education isnt necessarily the only solve all magic bullet, many educated people end up in that same boat, but without hard numbers in front of me to back it up, my instincts say that a quality education lowers the risk of failure and optimizes the chances of success
Folks involved in civil service believe they are making a difference to america or the state or town they work within.
Instead of saying it is Kodak that pays your bill (coporate name ) it is the USA.. lawyers go into politics with an agenda of changing the laws we live within.
so it is a mind set. I work for the state and my boss say it is your tax dollars paying for this! more powerful than the company name and profit is on the line.
obama thinks everyone thinks likehim that civil service and service to the people is the way to think.
yeah not so much.
as far as high school ok the bottom line is they are not safe in the cities and have huge problems, educating the students.
not to metion the home school crowd who do not want their kids robbed of knowledge the schools wont touch due to political interference.
two of my kids dropped out one in 8 th grade and let me tell you he walked in and took he GED test and passed with very very high grade with at best 7 years of school. hello? he is a nurse today
My other daughter quit in high school 12 th grade when they told her she didnt have enough "seat time" to graduate, yet was passing her classes . I do not blame her.
she has an excellent job and makes a ton of money without her high school degree. HOW? she proved herself a good worker and capable of being fair and just .
so no I do not think folks should quit school but it is very difficult to say your a failure because one institution which really really stinks and has so many problems is not working for you.
I can complain about the scores of folks I know that had their school bill paid by this state , and still do the original job they were hired that is civil service in a nut shell and a waste of resource and tax dollars. we just had a meeting and the bottom line if you get a promotion after years in the same job today you will be making LESS money than if you stay in your "lesser position. such as it is.
civil service all have unions all have very huge contracts particularly the teachers UNION in NY!!!!! are you kidding me? every year a 5% raise never ever based on performance.
School that.
I think high school is tough and some of these schools have so many evil influences and I work in a school and see the teachers attitudes omg well enough is enough .
As a Teacher and a Parent I can tell you I pulled my son out of our district High School. This was after he took the GED pretest and blew away 2 of the 3 sub categories. I have gone through so much pain dealing with our local high school, it would be an entirely different thread, needless to say, my son is starting college a year earlier than his peers.
Every case is different.
And by the way Mister-p-mosh - I don't consider myself a failure or my son who has already worked a steady job for 2 years, starting at 15 is also not a failure.
I don't think guilting people is right either. Telling everyone they don't love their country if they don't finish high school has the same guilt formula as crap from the way.
Education opens doors, both industries that my spouse and I work in currently require a college degree to advance, without a degre, doors are closed tight.
Many higher earning jobs require the standard of a degree, in their mind it shows discipline, a broader viewpoint and exposure, and it's a rite of passage in this country for many employers. I have been in business for myself before, the entrepeneur road is a hard road, many more businesses fail than succeed, right now it is especially tough for small business.
I would rather my kids get a college education than not, I want them to have open doors and options in life, to be able to contribute to society in any way they set their sights on, and not have to struggle to feed their family.
I think one of the reasons he said it was to increase our competitiveness as a country internationally, and continue as a country to be trailblazers of invention in all fields. I believe he also wants the poorest among us to improve their lives. With so many in all fields unemployed right now and with whole industries tanking, going back to school or getting a degree is what many need to get new jobs. Many people would like to go into new or second careers later in life, any assistance from the govt would be helpful. He also tagged on community service participation and giving back would be tied into affordable govt education programs....interesting stuff, I would go for that.
I think one of the reasons he said it was.......because Obama is the first black president and is the new "role model" in this Black History month. Lately, Bill Cosby has been making the rounds again.....and speaking to the young African-Americans. One of the statistics that seems to come to the surface is 50% of blacks are dropping out of high school. I have no idea if that is correct, but it seems to have been the nearest direct link.
The argument that public high school is the only way to college is thin...furthermore while my son intends on finishing college, how many here took detours and joined a cult...or at least postponed college even tho' they may have finished high school...
this sounds sou much like the non-tolerance for the square peg supposing to fit in the round hole....please
Depends on the kid, really. Some kids finish high school or get a GED and still do poorly, because high school was one big social event, or they had an unrecognized learning disability, or they just didn't give a rat's nose.
My son, whom you know I love dearly, graduated Golly How Come from high school. He never did homework in high school that I can recall. He just didn't care and told me so; he went for the social life or he would just drop out.
He works 12 hour shifts in a factory, doing hard hard labor, a job he had to work one year as a temporary to be able to get on as a permanent employee. He would be the first to tell you that he should have studied and gone to college and learned something useful rather than socialize, join the Navy, get married and divorced by the time he was 24.
I'm talking about MY kid, not anyone else's.
Mr. Garden teaches high school business, accounting, law, and software aps, and he tells his students high school is NOT ENOUGH! Not necessarily college, but some type of training to earn a living if you want to live in a nice house, drive a nice car, etc. It may not be fair that people look at how much time you spent in a classroom, but it still happens.
As far as education = patriotism I find that hilarious. I got a college degree because my parents made me, and I'm thankful they did, because honestly, I've gotten several jobs as a secretary because I graduated from college. Weird, people think secretary is a synonym for flunky, but the doctors I worked for thought it took brains to go get the coffee!
WG
Oh, I just remembered something that might help explain why the President said what he did: In some countries, education IS tied in with patriotism, and I am thinking that Japan is that way, anyone? George?
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waysider
I'm not sure I follow you.
Although I'm a big believer in getting as much education as you can, there are people who beat the odds and succeed despite their lack of it. The next time you pass a Wendy's Restaurant, think of R. David Thomas.
Click HERE and HERE and HERE
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Bolshevik
That's what The President said tonight.
I have mixed feelings on it.
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Shellon
I don't know, according to this list, dropping out isn't always equal to failing anything.
http://www.millionairedropouts.com/million...e_Dropout_List/
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HAPe4me
While of course there are numerous individual records of success without a HS diploma, especially in the past, overall this statistic should be considered:
In a time of a recovering economy, who do you think will be the first to be rehired?
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Mister P-Mosh
Despite a few exceptions, most people that drop out of high school don't make it anywhere, or have to go through extra trouble to get their GED. I think dropping out of high school is a failure both in the individual who chose to drop out, and their family/neighborhood/whatever support structure they have in place.
Our nation needs to get to a point where dropping out of high school is more embarrassing and the person is more stigmatized than if they were an overweight, black, gay, atheist, vegan man with bucked teeth named Suzy Bin Laden.
If I had a child that dropped out of high school, I would consider myself to be a total failure as a parent. There is simply no valid reason to drop out. It's free, it's not that difficult, and if you need to work at the same time you can.
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Bolshevik
probably likewise, I'll know when the time comes
I disagree
I agree
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Mister P-Mosh
What is one valid reason for dropping out?
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Bolshevik
Making the Majors.
Family business, big family business.
Wanting to live on a hill in a land far, far away . . .
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krys
Thanks for that list Shell. If anybody could find it fast it would be you :).
I have mixed feelings about this too. Although judging from a quick scan of the people on that list, I believe they would have been successful even if they had finished high school and/or college. The same is true of many other individuals who are not quite so famous. I think it's also important to state that "education" is not the same thing as a diploma. Additionally, many excellent kinds of employment don't require those kinds of diplomas.
IMO the single biggest reason why kids quit high school before graduation is that the "education" doesn't serve the students. I don't believe in pandering to them, but by serving the students I mean things that they need or want to know. One of the biggest mistakes made in high schools was removing the non-academic programs. Auto shop, print shop etc. But - there are a number of other things that contribute to the very high rate of student drop out. In many places it is close to 50%. I don't know about today, but a few years ago, Boston was a smidge over 50% drop out rate.
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kimberly
Weeelll, I think of Ruth Simmons. Shortly after she became the first black president of an Ivy League school (Brown University) she was on 60 Minutes. She said something I will never forget..... you don't go to college so you can get a job. You go to learn.
She is one person I so immensely admire and respect. One day I will meet her, talk, and thank her. She is inspiring.
As I have told my children, you can choose whatever job you want....BUT you WILL get an education. You can lose a lot of things in life. Your education is the one thing no one can ever take away from you.
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dmiller
Barry's tang got toungled up in his tie.
If you quit school, you have less chance of making money later on that he and his cronies can tax.
I think that's what he meant to say, but was being *politically correct* about it. :) :unsure:
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HAPe4me
oh yeah , THAT is it, you betchya
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now I see
I think one of the reasons he said it was to increase our competitiveness as a country internationally, and continue as a country to be trailblazers of invention in all fields. I believe he also wants the poorest among us to improve their lives. With so many in all fields unemployed right now and with whole industries tanking, going back to school or getting a degree is what many need to get new jobs. Many people would like to go into new or second careers later in life, any assistance from the govt would be helpful. He also tagged on community service participation and giving back would be tied into affordable govt education programs....interesting stuff, I would go for that.
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dmiller
I G O T B H O. Pearls before swine. Dog's returning to their vomit. That's what's being offered.
Sadly -- that's what's being accepted by mainstream USA. :(
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Mister P-Mosh
Funny, I didn't see his wife there.
So what you are saying is that you want American kids to drop out of high school?
I agree, and am amazed at how our nation, as opposed to nations like China and India, seem to hate education and intelligent people so much. I expect countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia to demonize educators and ridicule intelligent people and instead admire brutish, stupid people. We need to make our country a place again where kids grow up wanting to be doctors and scientists rather than professional athletes.
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waysider
Education is a great thing. I think people should take advantage of as many educational opportunities as they can. Go to college if you can, even if it's community college. The purpose of college, after all, is to learn HOW to learn. You can do that at community college. With that said, though, formal education is not for everyone. One development that I have personally been witnessing lately is that employers are much more focused on what an employee can immediately contribute as opposed to assigning a value to a list of credentials. This is especially true in the trades and blue collar sector. People who have hands on skills seem to be able to find work easier than those with advanced degrees. I know of one PhD (engineering) who lost all his long term consulting contracts as a result of an economic downturn for his clients.
And it's somewhat of a misconception that high school is free. In parts of rural Ohio, for example, student busing ceases at the high school level. High school students are expected to find their own way to school. Some of these kids live 5 and 6 miles away from the nearest high school. You simple can't walk or ride a bike down these dangerous country roads. There is no public transit. The kids have to pay other kids to transport them, get part time jobs to pay for their own transportation or rely on Mom and Dad . Many school districts have instituted a "pay to play" policy for sports, arts and other extra curricular activities. These activities are a vital part of a well rounded educational program. Many parents simply can't afford to keep their kids in these programs. Some of the urban areas are instituting dress codes that require the students to wear uniforms. These uniforms are not for street wear. I'm not judging the value of these uniform policies, I'm simply saying this is an added expense for cash strapped parents. None of this is meant to imply justification for dropping out of high school. My point is simply that school is not really "free".
There are so many variables and individual situations, I just don't see where one blanket statement can sum it all up.
that's my to too two cents.
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mstar1
There is no general wide brush to paint the picture. I know several people have succeeded without an education.
How many people have failed and ended up on welfare, in jail or having their earning levels stalled at the poverty level because they are uneducated? and what is the percentage between the two?
In that way they do become more of a burden than a contribution to the country.
Education isnt necessarily the only solve all magic bullet, many educated people end up in that same boat, but without hard numbers in front of me to back it up, my instincts say that a quality education lowers the risk of failure and optimizes the chances of success
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pond
Folks involved in civil service believe they are making a difference to america or the state or town they work within.
Instead of saying it is Kodak that pays your bill (coporate name ) it is the USA.. lawyers go into politics with an agenda of changing the laws we live within.
so it is a mind set. I work for the state and my boss say it is your tax dollars paying for this! more powerful than the company name and profit is on the line.
obama thinks everyone thinks likehim that civil service and service to the people is the way to think.
yeah not so much.
as far as high school ok the bottom line is they are not safe in the cities and have huge problems, educating the students.
not to metion the home school crowd who do not want their kids robbed of knowledge the schools wont touch due to political interference.
two of my kids dropped out one in 8 th grade and let me tell you he walked in and took he GED test and passed with very very high grade with at best 7 years of school. hello? he is a nurse today
My other daughter quit in high school 12 th grade when they told her she didnt have enough "seat time" to graduate, yet was passing her classes . I do not blame her.
she has an excellent job and makes a ton of money without her high school degree. HOW? she proved herself a good worker and capable of being fair and just .
so no I do not think folks should quit school but it is very difficult to say your a failure because one institution which really really stinks and has so many problems is not working for you.
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pond
I can complain about the scores of folks I know that had their school bill paid by this state , and still do the original job they were hired that is civil service in a nut shell and a waste of resource and tax dollars. we just had a meeting and the bottom line if you get a promotion after years in the same job today you will be making LESS money than if you stay in your "lesser position. such as it is.
civil service all have unions all have very huge contracts particularly the teachers UNION in NY!!!!! are you kidding me? every year a 5% raise never ever based on performance.
School that.
I think high school is tough and some of these schools have so many evil influences and I work in a school and see the teachers attitudes omg well enough is enough .
no obama I do not agree.
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washn'wear
As a Teacher and a Parent I can tell you I pulled my son out of our district High School. This was after he took the GED pretest and blew away 2 of the 3 sub categories. I have gone through so much pain dealing with our local high school, it would be an entirely different thread, needless to say, my son is starting college a year earlier than his peers.
Every case is different.
And by the way Mister-p-mosh - I don't consider myself a failure or my son who has already worked a steady job for 2 years, starting at 15 is also not a failure.
I don't think guilting people is right either. Telling everyone they don't love their country if they don't finish high school has the same guilt formula as crap from the way.
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now I see
Education opens doors, both industries that my spouse and I work in currently require a college degree to advance, without a degre, doors are closed tight.
Many higher earning jobs require the standard of a degree, in their mind it shows discipline, a broader viewpoint and exposure, and it's a rite of passage in this country for many employers. I have been in business for myself before, the entrepeneur road is a hard road, many more businesses fail than succeed, right now it is especially tough for small business.
I would rather my kids get a college education than not, I want them to have open doors and options in life, to be able to contribute to society in any way they set their sights on, and not have to struggle to feed their family.
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skyrider
I think one of the reasons he said it was.......because Obama is the first black president and is the new "role model" in this Black History month. Lately, Bill Cosby has been making the rounds again.....and speaking to the young African-Americans. One of the statistics that seems to come to the surface is 50% of blacks are dropping out of high school. I have no idea if that is correct, but it seems to have been the nearest direct link.
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DaddyHoundog
The argument that public high school is the only way to college is thin...furthermore while my son intends on finishing college, how many here took detours and joined a cult...or at least postponed college even tho' they may have finished high school...
this sounds sou much like the non-tolerance for the square peg supposing to fit in the round hole....please
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Watered Garden
Depends on the kid, really. Some kids finish high school or get a GED and still do poorly, because high school was one big social event, or they had an unrecognized learning disability, or they just didn't give a rat's nose.
My son, whom you know I love dearly, graduated Golly How Come from high school. He never did homework in high school that I can recall. He just didn't care and told me so; he went for the social life or he would just drop out.
He works 12 hour shifts in a factory, doing hard hard labor, a job he had to work one year as a temporary to be able to get on as a permanent employee. He would be the first to tell you that he should have studied and gone to college and learned something useful rather than socialize, join the Navy, get married and divorced by the time he was 24.
I'm talking about MY kid, not anyone else's.
Mr. Garden teaches high school business, accounting, law, and software aps, and he tells his students high school is NOT ENOUGH! Not necessarily college, but some type of training to earn a living if you want to live in a nice house, drive a nice car, etc. It may not be fair that people look at how much time you spent in a classroom, but it still happens.
As far as education = patriotism I find that hilarious. I got a college degree because my parents made me, and I'm thankful they did, because honestly, I've gotten several jobs as a secretary because I graduated from college. Weird, people think secretary is a synonym for flunky, but the doctors I worked for thought it took brains to go get the coffee!
WG
Oh, I just remembered something that might help explain why the President said what he did: In some countries, education IS tied in with patriotism, and I am thinking that Japan is that way, anyone? George?
WG
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