actually I think GS is a product of twi. Had loy and vic kept their pants zipped up at the appropriate moments.. didn't abuse people.. there probably wouldn't even be a GS cafe..
even loy himself named it..
perhaps da way was its own worst enemy in this instance..
To me, Greasespot is more of a "Truth about TWI" website. If the truth is damning, that's TWI's problem.
Remember when they used to tell us, when we were trying to get people to take PFAL, simply to tell the people what PFAL had done for us? This is an extention of that. We are simply telling the truth about what TWI did for us. And to us.
Greasespot is a web site to tell the OTHER side of the story....our stories, the ones that we didn`t get to tell while in twi.
If our experiences had been all roses and rainbows, that is what we would talk about, and this place would probably be considered a pro twi site....
As it turnes out many of the experiences related are of mistreatment, manipulation and abuse...so that, imo is what makes this *appear* to be anti twi.
To bad twi wasn`t what we believed it to be, vp and his leaders men of good character and morality. We wouldn`t have anything but the warm fuzzy memories to discuss.
To me, Greasespot is more of a "Truth about TWI" website. If the truth is damning, that's TWI's problem.
Remember when they used to tell us, when we were trying to get people to take PFAL, simply to tell the people what PFAL had done for us? This is an extention of that. We are simply telling the truth about what TWI did for us. And to us.
NIKA.....yeah, a "truth about twi" website." Interestingly, those twi websites have NO DISCUSSION FORUMS.........even after all these years, YOUR VIEWPOINTS AND OPINIONS DO NOT MATTER.
Even the D@ve Br0wn guy in FL......when he started that twi-website, it was only a short time before it was censored. Control is always an issue with twi..........even with their "faithful" followers.
But like Groucho said......."Waydale was created in response to the sexual abuse generated towards the wife of Waydale's creator...There was a lawsuit against twi, and as a result, LCM was booted. This happened in part because of the many threads that exposed twi for what they were..." IMO............as the corroboration of information on Waydale kept building month after month, many of us had multiple "AHA" moments......the light bulbs went off......the pieces of the puzzle started fitting together......martindale was a sexual predator........BUT SO WAS WIERWILLE.
In peeling off the layers of onion.......waydale exposed wierwille who founded the twi-system to facilitate his agendas, his lusts. Most, at the time, could easily see martindale ousted as the fall guy.......no problem. But when the attacks mounted on wierwille.......the counter-posters had to defend their idol.
For me......it took a bit to FINALLY REALIZE that wierwille was a wholesale plagairist, a drunkard, a sexual predator, an opportunist and narcissist preying on wow-girls and corps women. Waydale was an open forum to finally discuss the other side of twi.....and the pieces of the puzzle started fitting together. No preconceived agenda.......other than to TELL YOUR STORIES AND EXPRESS YOUR VIEWPOINTS.
NOW......nearly 10 years later, the "puzzle is fitted together." GreaseSpot continued on the path that Waydale started.... adding and augmenting the accounts by posts and radio. The outline, the details, the intricacies of the abusers and abusees are documented........with no fear of reprisal FINALLY the voices are heard.
In the end, with all this documentation...............yes, now, twi is an anti-twi website.
GS is like a cult recovery group for me, where I've been able to get help in sorting out the badness of twi from the goodness of my life. in that sense it is "anti-twi" because it has helped me uproot a lot of twi from the way I approach life and has helped me become a healthier person.
I'd portray it in the way that NIKA and Rascal did myself..."The Truth about TWI" Im not necessarily anti anything, I am highly in favor of being honest and truthful in my exposition of anything.
When I first came here I was hurting badly and needed answers.
Among the first things that I did was tell folks that I learned thing from PFAL and was thankful for TWI. And everyone was gentle with me for the most part, IMO they were just giving the new guy the benefit of the doubt.
But as I listened to your experiences and started lining them up with my own splinter group experience my views changed to what some folks may choose to label ANTI-TWI.
But I still remember good folks who were trying to do good things too in TWI. In hindsight, it appears that real nasty scumbags ran TWI and are still trying to hide. But it was all too easy for leadership to hide and encourage loyalty and love.
Loyalty and love is good. But truth requires a different attitude towards those in TWI who led people into scummy actions. In such a case I believe that truth and properly applied love and loyalty requires rebuke and exposure.
As long as they have their identity tied up in TWI then it stands to reason that they may feel that any criticism of TWI is anti something anyway. Or criticism of Wierwille is bad. Or leadership deserves to have their sin hid for God's sake.
I can understand these opinions, but I don't think that this is correct.
As I have seen it, this site would not be here provided the abuse in TWI didn't happen. The very existence of this site is evidence of TWI's wrongdoing. Is it "anti-TWI"? I don't think so. I've seen no posts attacking the beliefs of TWI in particular for what they are and not the effects that they may or may not have. I've only seen posts directed at exposing the abuse, which is very reasonable.
I like that Brush,When,many years ago,I was in alcohol rehab,I had to take a pill called antiabuse,if you drank any alcohol,it would make you ill.
Twi is like that,thinking about it makes me ill.Loved alot of the people,the abuse,now,greasespot exposes that.As you know twi was opposed to the internet,greasespot in particular.
As I have seen it, this site would not be here provided the abuse in TWI didn't happen. The very existence of this site is evidence of TWI's wrongdoing. Is it "anti-TWI"? I don't think so. I've seen no posts attacking the beliefs of TWI in particular for what they are and not the effects that they may or may not have. I've only seen posts directed at exposing the abuse, which is very reasonable.
This site is "anti-abuse" not "anti-TWI."
There are no beliefs to attack. There are no beliefs.
The Way International has been known as a CULT for years. It's a mind control cult. That however is apparently only obvious to a normal christian. It appears that those that have been involved in this cult have difficulty differentiating between truth and non truths.
The Way International has been known as a CULT for years. It's a mind control cult. That however is apparently only obvious to a normal christian. It appears that those that have been involved in this cult have difficulty differentiating between truth and non truths.
It is also obvious to many who WERE involved...and some non Christians as well.
AnonymousJ Welcome to the GreaseSpot!...Your imput is both valid and welcome.
Brushstroke - - you've got a lot of reading to do! You might like to start with a "search". Plagiarism, believing, PFAL errors....just those 3 will keep you busy until summer....at least!
As I have seen it, this site would not be here provided the abuse in TWI didn't happen. The very existence of this site is evidence of TWI's wrongdoing. Is it "anti-TWI"? I don't think so. I've seen no posts attacking the beliefs of TWI in particular for what they are and not the effects that they may or may not have. I've only seen posts directed at exposing the abuse, which is very reasonable.
This site is "anti-abuse" not "anti-TWI."
Hey there Phil, how be ye?? :)
You've got it partially correct (imo). The abuse that happened there in twi certainly DOES offer fodder for the pages here,
yet it was the *beliefs* of twi that fueled the abuse, that you see mentioned here on these pages.
A few things like - - - >>>
Believing equals Receiving (what I call the most INSIDIOUS teaching of twi);
Abundant Sharing --- (or God won't even SPIT in your direction); and,
Be Debt Free (sell the house you have equity in, and go rent instead);
have done more to wreck the lives of honest folks than the actual physical abuse that went on in twi. (in imo)
Granted -- the physical/ mental abuse you read here was present (even though that's a part of the *story*),
you need to dig deeper and see what the origin of that abuse was. The *doctrine* of twi fueled it all.
I've heard it said that "Actions are a result of words and thoughts". In the case of twi, this is absolutely true.
There were widespread *liberties* taken by (cough! cough!) leadership as a direct result of the *teachings* twi propounded.
Those that were higher up the ladder, took advantage of those lower on the ladder and they used *teaching* to do so.
The front page of this site offers MANY disputations of twi and it's *beliefs*.
These forums are a continuation, with personal experience added.
Give the site some objective reading, eh? ;) There's much more here than just physical abuse stories.
The Way International has been known as a CULT for years. It's a mind control cult. That however is apparently only obvious to a normal christian. It appears that those that have been involved in this cult have difficulty differentiating between truth and non truths.
A normal Christian? What exactly is that? They must live on some planet other than earth.
Is there a single theme to their teachings? Wierwille was a prophet? I dunno.
Some "beliefs" like the trinity talk, are about just being against something, not really a belief, IMO.
IMO, a lot of the teachings have nothing to do with each other. It's a bunch of thrown together random stuff. There's no coherent belief system to be against really. You can pick on individual things, yes.
What does a wayfer believe? nothing, nothing at all . . .
Is there a single theme to their teachings? Wierwille was a prophet? I dunno.
Some "beliefs" like the trinity talk, are about just being against something, not really a belief, IMO.
IMO, a lot of the teachings have nothing to do with each other. It's a bunch of thrown together random stuff. There's no coherent belief system to be against really. You can pick on individual things, yes.
What does a wayfer believe? nothing, nothing at all . . .
I catch your drift..."a bunch of thrown together random stuff"...but yet they claim to "believe it"...
Claiming to "believe it" is a prerequisite to becoming glassy eyed and conned.
The term cult and it's meaning has been long discussed, lo these many years. In Board Years, an eternity or maybe it just seems like that. The Way's been called a cult since it got on the radar of hmmm...."Mainstream Christianity", another much discussed term. I guess I think of it in my own lifetime as late 60's, early70's when it took flame but it could probably be dated before that I'm guessing,
One of the bigger Cult Awareness groups has a website where they list everything and everyone they define as a cult, a baseline of "normalcy" if you will, and those who don't make the cut. (can't remember the site otherwise I'd quote their definitions, sorry - but they included the "charismatic leader", the departure from what they defined as basic Christian doctrine and several other points.)
The Roman Catholic church was listed, reasons included the Papal stuff, the Pope. The authority given to church tradition over the bible. Other stuff. So for them size doesn't matter when it comes to cult, it isn't just little groups of bible thumpers watching for UFO's with a little green Jesus at the wheel or whatever. Neither does popularity or acceptance. A cult is a cult is a cult and they call 'em like they see 'em.
Christianity is a cult, by accepted definition - still yet another term worth popping into a petri dish and seeing what it does. A charismatic leader, departure from the accepted norms of the religious community in which it was originally born and flourished. It caused quite a stir and no small division and still does to this day, depending on where it turns up and how much money is involved. In fact I bet a dissertation could be developed on the relationship of income to cult-status, ie, small dough, little cult problem. Tall dough - BIG cult problem.
I dunno - for me it's a difficult term to use intelligently. Not to imply the use of it is unintelligent but I end up with a page of caveats, dunno's and could-be's footnoted with a list of "hmmmm's" that's too long to manage. Practical is the word I'm searching for - it's not a practical word for me.
Add to that I'll read things like "cult-like" and my brain just goes into hiccup mode. I see "something that's like something that's like something that departs from the accepted norm, by definition". It's just too much for me to handle, I have to stop and read Dilbert and rest.
In short I don't use it unless it's attached to something humorous like a joke. More terms that beg evauation I know but I gotta end this somewhere.
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Ham
Hmm. I Greasespot an anti-twi website...
is a bear catholic..
does the pope.. well you know..
actually I think GS is a product of twi. Had loy and vic kept their pants zipped up at the appropriate moments.. didn't abuse people.. there probably wouldn't even be a GS cafe..
even loy himself named it..
perhaps da way was its own worst enemy in this instance..
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GeorgeStGeorge
Always seemed to be an anti-TWI site to me (with rooms for a lot of other discussions).
George
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WhiteDove
I think your right thanks for your honesty. As you pointed out it certainly is not doing them any favors, nothing wrong with that either.
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notinKansasanymore
To me, Greasespot is more of a "Truth about TWI" website. If the truth is damning, that's TWI's problem.
Remember when they used to tell us, when we were trying to get people to take PFAL, simply to tell the people what PFAL had done for us? This is an extention of that. We are simply telling the truth about what TWI did for us. And to us.
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rascal
Greasespot is a web site to tell the OTHER side of the story....our stories, the ones that we didn`t get to tell while in twi.
If our experiences had been all roses and rainbows, that is what we would talk about, and this place would probably be considered a pro twi site....
As it turnes out many of the experiences related are of mistreatment, manipulation and abuse...so that, imo is what makes this *appear* to be anti twi.
To bad twi wasn`t what we believed it to be, vp and his leaders men of good character and morality. We wouldn`t have anything but the warm fuzzy memories to discuss.
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skyrider
NIKA.....yeah, a "truth about twi" website." Interestingly, those twi websites have NO DISCUSSION FORUMS.........even after all these years, YOUR VIEWPOINTS AND OPINIONS DO NOT MATTER.
Even the D@ve Br0wn guy in FL......when he started that twi-website, it was only a short time before it was censored. Control is always an issue with twi..........even with their "faithful" followers.
But like Groucho said......."Waydale was created in response to the sexual abuse generated towards the wife of Waydale's creator...There was a lawsuit against twi, and as a result, LCM was booted. This happened in part because of the many threads that exposed twi for what they were..." IMO............as the corroboration of information on Waydale kept building month after month, many of us had multiple "AHA" moments......the light bulbs went off......the pieces of the puzzle started fitting together......martindale was a sexual predator........BUT SO WAS WIERWILLE.
In peeling off the layers of onion.......waydale exposed wierwille who founded the twi-system to facilitate his agendas, his lusts. Most, at the time, could easily see martindale ousted as the fall guy.......no problem. But when the attacks mounted on wierwille.......the counter-posters had to defend their idol.
For me......it took a bit to FINALLY REALIZE that wierwille was a wholesale plagairist, a drunkard, a sexual predator, an opportunist and narcissist preying on wow-girls and corps women. Waydale was an open forum to finally discuss the other side of twi.....and the pieces of the puzzle started fitting together. No preconceived agenda.......other than to TELL YOUR STORIES AND EXPRESS YOUR VIEWPOINTS.
NOW......nearly 10 years later, the "puzzle is fitted together." GreaseSpot continued on the path that Waydale started.... adding and augmenting the accounts by posts and radio. The outline, the details, the intricacies of the abusers and abusees are documented........with no fear of reprisal FINALLY the voices are heard.
In the end, with all this documentation...............yes, now, twi is an anti-twi website.
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leafytwiglet
IT is kind of a place to finally do what you originally set out to do in TWI
To spread the truth ..
The truth about TWI in relation ot the Bible
The truth abut who the originator of TWI was and who his hand picked minions really were.
A place to hear and speak the truth about what TWI really was .
The good parts , THE bad parts the fun parts and the parts that were horrific for those who happened into the spiders lair.
A place to find out what parts of PFAL were true and what parts weren't
A place to learn about who really were the people who originated VP's teachings, and what those were.
A place to get healing from your hurts if you had them from being in TWI
A place to find old friends you haven't seen in years
IT is lots more than just an anti TWI place. IT is place of information, connection, emotional support.
and for a little bit of friendship.
GSC is a whole lot of things.
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potato
GS is like a cult recovery group for me, where I've been able to get help in sorting out the badness of twi from the goodness of my life. in that sense it is "anti-twi" because it has helped me uproot a lot of twi from the way I approach life and has helped me become a healthier person.
it is also a "pro-living without a cult" site.
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mstar1
I'd portray it in the way that NIKA and Rascal did myself..."The Truth about TWI" Im not necessarily anti anything, I am highly in favor of being honest and truthful in my exposition of anything.
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JeffSjo
When I first came here I was hurting badly and needed answers.
Among the first things that I did was tell folks that I learned thing from PFAL and was thankful for TWI. And everyone was gentle with me for the most part, IMO they were just giving the new guy the benefit of the doubt.
But as I listened to your experiences and started lining them up with my own splinter group experience my views changed to what some folks may choose to label ANTI-TWI.
But I still remember good folks who were trying to do good things too in TWI. In hindsight, it appears that real nasty scumbags ran TWI and are still trying to hide. But it was all too easy for leadership to hide and encourage loyalty and love.
Loyalty and love is good. But truth requires a different attitude towards those in TWI who led people into scummy actions. In such a case I believe that truth and properly applied love and loyalty requires rebuke and exposure.
As long as they have their identity tied up in TWI then it stands to reason that they may feel that any criticism of TWI is anti something anyway. Or criticism of Wierwille is bad. Or leadership deserves to have their sin hid for God's sake.
I can understand these opinions, but I don't think that this is correct.
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Brushstroke
As I have seen it, this site would not be here provided the abuse in TWI didn't happen. The very existence of this site is evidence of TWI's wrongdoing. Is it "anti-TWI"? I don't think so. I've seen no posts attacking the beliefs of TWI in particular for what they are and not the effects that they may or may not have. I've only seen posts directed at exposing the abuse, which is very reasonable.
This site is "anti-abuse" not "anti-TWI."
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frank123lol
I like that Brush,When,many years ago,I was in alcohol rehab,I had to take a pill called antiabuse,if you drank any alcohol,it would make you ill.
Twi is like that,thinking about it makes me ill.Loved alot of the people,the abuse,now,greasespot exposes that.As you know twi was opposed to the internet,greasespot in particular.
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Bolshevik
There are no beliefs to attack. There are no beliefs.
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Brushstroke
TWI doesn't have any beliefs?
:blink:
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AnonymousJ
The Way International has been known as a CULT for years. It's a mind control cult. That however is apparently only obvious to a normal christian. It appears that those that have been involved in this cult have difficulty differentiating between truth and non truths.
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GrouchoMarxJr
It is also obvious to many who WERE involved...and some non Christians as well.
AnonymousJ Welcome to the GreaseSpot!...Your imput is both valid and welcome.
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krys
Brushstroke - - you've got a lot of reading to do! You might like to start with a "search". Plagiarism, believing, PFAL errors....just those 3 will keep you busy until summer....at least!
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dmiller
Hey there Phil, how be ye?? :)
You've got it partially correct (imo). The abuse that happened there in twi certainly DOES offer fodder for the pages here,
yet it was the *beliefs* of twi that fueled the abuse, that you see mentioned here on these pages.
A few things like - - - >>>
Believing equals Receiving (what I call the most INSIDIOUS teaching of twi);
Abundant Sharing --- (or God won't even SPIT in your direction); and,
Be Debt Free (sell the house you have equity in, and go rent instead);
have done more to wreck the lives of honest folks than the actual physical abuse that went on in twi. (in imo)
Granted -- the physical/ mental abuse you read here was present (even though that's a part of the *story*),
you need to dig deeper and see what the origin of that abuse was. The *doctrine* of twi fueled it all.
I've heard it said that "Actions are a result of words and thoughts". In the case of twi, this is absolutely true.
There were widespread *liberties* taken by (cough! cough!) leadership as a direct result of the *teachings* twi propounded.
Those that were higher up the ladder, took advantage of those lower on the ladder and they used *teaching* to do so.
The front page of this site offers MANY disputations of twi and it's *beliefs*.
These forums are a continuation, with personal experience added.
Give the site some objective reading, eh? ;) There's much more here than just physical abuse stories.
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What The Hey
A normal Christian? What exactly is that? They must live on some planet other than earth.
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Bolshevik
Is there a single theme to their teachings? Wierwille was a prophet? I dunno.
Some "beliefs" like the trinity talk, are about just being against something, not really a belief, IMO.
IMO, a lot of the teachings have nothing to do with each other. It's a bunch of thrown together random stuff. There's no coherent belief system to be against really. You can pick on individual things, yes.
What does a wayfer believe? nothing, nothing at all . . .
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GrouchoMarxJr
I catch your drift..."a bunch of thrown together random stuff"...but yet they claim to "believe it"...
Claiming to "believe it" is a prerequisite to becoming glassy eyed and conned.
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AnonymousJ
A
What I meant by Normal Christian is a non CULT involved Christian.
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socks
"Normal". What a word.
The term cult and it's meaning has been long discussed, lo these many years. In Board Years, an eternity or maybe it just seems like that. The Way's been called a cult since it got on the radar of hmmm...."Mainstream Christianity", another much discussed term. I guess I think of it in my own lifetime as late 60's, early70's when it took flame but it could probably be dated before that I'm guessing,
One of the bigger Cult Awareness groups has a website where they list everything and everyone they define as a cult, a baseline of "normalcy" if you will, and those who don't make the cut. (can't remember the site otherwise I'd quote their definitions, sorry - but they included the "charismatic leader", the departure from what they defined as basic Christian doctrine and several other points.)
The Roman Catholic church was listed, reasons included the Papal stuff, the Pope. The authority given to church tradition over the bible. Other stuff. So for them size doesn't matter when it comes to cult, it isn't just little groups of bible thumpers watching for UFO's with a little green Jesus at the wheel or whatever. Neither does popularity or acceptance. A cult is a cult is a cult and they call 'em like they see 'em.
Christianity is a cult, by accepted definition - still yet another term worth popping into a petri dish and seeing what it does. A charismatic leader, departure from the accepted norms of the religious community in which it was originally born and flourished. It caused quite a stir and no small division and still does to this day, depending on where it turns up and how much money is involved. In fact I bet a dissertation could be developed on the relationship of income to cult-status, ie, small dough, little cult problem. Tall dough - BIG cult problem.
I dunno - for me it's a difficult term to use intelligently. Not to imply the use of it is unintelligent but I end up with a page of caveats, dunno's and could-be's footnoted with a list of "hmmmm's" that's too long to manage. Practical is the word I'm searching for - it's not a practical word for me.
Add to that I'll read things like "cult-like" and my brain just goes into hiccup mode. I see "something that's like something that's like something that departs from the accepted norm, by definition". It's just too much for me to handle, I have to stop and read Dilbert and rest.
In short I don't use it unless it's attached to something humorous like a joke. More terms that beg evauation I know but I gotta end this somewhere.
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