Now let's think about this one for a minute here, shall we? (For if anything, you just gave me new ammo, my friend)
Dear Garth....you should really check first to make sure you are not using blanks.
1) "all killing by god after that is a big fat 'so what?'" ... which further strengthens my argument re: the Adam and Eve point. They do the equivalent of walking on the grass (okay, so Eve talking to a snake does bring up the weirdness factor), and not only are they sentenced to death, but _every single one_ of their descendants (ie., the ENTIRE human race) gets the punishment as well, even if we had absolutely nothing to do with the sin. But now your "big fat 'so what'" comment underscores that further, and not only that, but pretty much shoots thru the foot religious people's own argument about life being 'precious and holy'. _We_ are expected to treat life as precious and holy, yet your god (according to you) has the "big fat 'so what'" attitude when he kills people? And you and Bride have no trouble with that HUGE discrepancy??
Even though we may have never sinned in the same exact way as A&E, their iniquity has come down through the generations. Yah, Garth, God is the Creator and therefore able to judge as He pleases. Just like an earthly judge who passes sentence on the convicted....you must have a problem with this sort of thinking as well....are you really into a mentality of criminality then? Just curious.
2) "not killing people would be delaying the inevitable." ... so let's just slaughter 'em all, and thus quicken the judgment of God? ... Sure you guys weren't working on Dubya's Iraq War staff? <_<
Cheap shots, huh! If they work for you...
3) "'grace and mercy' is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second." ... again, all based upon Adam and Eve's sin in the garden. _They_ eat the fruit (as well as talking to some stupid snake), and _we_ receive the punishment of being at such an enmity with such a 'righteous god' (Yah! Right! <_< ), that to allow us to exist for "more than a second" is such wondrous 'grace and mercy'.
As I said above, their iniquity has come down to us and it is only through the wondrous sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and the shedding of His perfect blood that releases us from these burdens of our ancestry.
Any of you guys ever think this crap through? Just for once?? ..... But n-o-o-o, you've been 'brainwas'--errr, I mean, taught that this is the Holy Wisdom of God to such an extent that you are not to question it, ... at ALL. Hell, you could take Weirwille's garbage and treat it the same way, and if you have been browbeaten and guilt tripped enough, you'd treat his dogma with the same blind, terrified obedience. ..... Ya know, maybe I'm beginning to see why some people think that this kind of 'blind faith' mentality is regarded as 'mind control'.
Fortunately, more and more people these days are turning away from such fundamentalist garbage, or are at least starting to be more bold in standing up to it. More and more people are being skeptics and are looking at this kind of fundamentalism with more scrutiny and with a lot less 'fear of the Lord' based obedience.
There is a reverential awe and fear which is different from "knees-shaking" type. More and more will be going to hell, apparently. Geez, I sure wish I could have met them on the other side. Alas..... Kinda hoped to see you Garth one day, too....alas....
Yah, Garth, God is the Creator and therefore able to judge as He pleases. Just like an earthly judge who passes sentence on the convicted....you must have a problem with this sort of thinking as well....are you really into a mentality of criminality then? Just curious.
Amazing the leaps of flawed presumptions some people make.
Ie., for an example of said flawed presumptions, ... my dear, at what point did I ever communicate any problem with judges passing judgment upon the convicted. Your comparison of that with the 'judgments' of your god is flawed. For one thing, judges (if they are good ones; ... take note of that point, will you please? ;) ) pass judgment upon the convicted because the convicted were charged, tried, and convicted, by proof, of the crimes they were charged with. That I have no problem with.
What I do have a problem with (now try to keep up here, ok?) is the 'judgment' of a deity that makes someone 'guilty' when they have done nothing to deserve it. And sorry Charlie, but this argument of because we are A&E's descendants doesn't cut it. Ie., if I'm gonna catch hell for something, it had better be for something that *I* did, or something that *I* am directly responsible for. Outside of that, ... I ain't gonna pay. Oh and, arguments of "well, you're just not spiritual enough to understand" are just as much of a gutless copout.
And you know, I would rather die forever in the grave, than to be a part of some 'heavenly' Borg-like collective for The Lord. "You will be assimilated into the collective. ... Resistance is futile!"
P.S., please see the latest dozen or so posts in the 'Calvinism a Cult?' thread (particularly the pro-Calvinist posts ) as to why I have reached the conclusions I do. If anything, that kind of mentality only strengthens my point of view.
Heh heh heh... well stated Garth - ever thought that the verse "no man cometh unto the father but by me" sounds like - guilty until proven innocent? You're doomed Garth - doomed - you will spend eternity having one 15 minute break per day where you can drink coffee and brandy and smoke a cigar...the other 23:45 you will stand on your head in 2 feet of cr@p...Oh sorry was remembering the corps training...
What I do have a problem with <snip> is the 'judgment' of a deity that makes someone 'guilty' when they have done nothing to deserve it. And sorry Charlie, but this argument of because we are A&E's descendants doesn't cut it. Ie., if I'm gonna catch hell for something, it had better be for something that *I* did, or something that *I* am directly responsible for. Outside of that, ... I ain't gonna pay. Oh and, arguments of "well, you're just not spiritual enough to understand" are just as much of a gutless copout.
And you know, I would rather die forever in the grave, than to be a part of some 'heavenly' Borg-like collective for The Lord. "You will be assimilated into the collective. ... Resistance is futile!"
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The last put forth his hand and took ALSO of the tree of life.
To Eat and live forever.
Mankind is one as Christ is Adam. And Adam (mankind) is Christ.
The judgment is closer then once though.
And not as man judges but as one who is mankind.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
"and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life"
If anything, the posts of the last few days on this and the other thread have portrayed a belief in a powerful god--but not a just god, or a loving god, or a god who feels any responsibility about wht he created--unlike a parent --or even a rational god. A god who does what he pleases.
Seems quite different than the Jesus of the gospels who seemed to care for the needs of actual individual people. But Jesus doesn't have much gong on in the fear motvation category.
Seems to me that fear motivation is deeply ingrained in some types of Christianity, and accepted as a good thing.
P.S., please see the latest dozen or so posts in the 'Calvinism a Cult?' thread (particularly the pro-Calvinist posts ) as to why I have reached the conclusions I do. If anything, that kind of mentality only strengthens my point of view.
I don't understand why you stop at religion. Why not take it a step further?
I don't just stop at religion. I also have this point of view towards many aspects of staunch conservatism as well as other philosophies/mentalities that wind up being abusive, yet demand blind obedience from their followers.
I don't just stop at religion. I also have this point of view towards many aspects of staunch conservatism as well as other philosophies/mentalities that wind up being abusive, yet demand blind obedience from their followers.
I haven't read the whole thread but did the first bit and the last couple pages, but I don't think I'm off topic.
I think the whole idea of sin in a bloodline in born of ignorance and is an attempt to explain why bad things happen to otherwise good people. A child dies at birth.... it must have been the fault of the parent or some ancestor because why would a just God allow this to happen. That sort of thing. There is that, but then at other points in the Bible and in other cultures it is more of a racist/xenophobia. i.e. Don't marry outside of the chosen group because everyone else's blood is tainted. So it is either fear or ignorance... and not the good kind of fear.
I think regarding this whole fear being awe and reverence idea... I don't quite get it. Lets put this in human terms or better yet sci-fi terms. Lets say there was a race of aliens that came here overtook the earth and gave us all rules. They weren't overly burdensome, but they were limiting in some ways and they included reverence and thanks be shown and paid to them. They had super human powers, claimed they seeded the earth to start life here, and could crush us at anytime, but saw a benefit in keeping us alive as long as we played by their rules and they would reward you if you did. Part of the rules would be to work and pay them, I don't know, lets say 10% of your earnings to them. We'll call it a tax on your "increase." How many of you would obey out of awe and reverence of their power, ability, and generosity and how many would obey out of actual fear for your lives?
Stories would most likely circulate about how Billy and Jane were struck down for hiding their earnings (cheating on their tax forms) and were discovered by the alien overseers. Would that be a story of how to do what is right, a story about how to go about paying your taxes, or a story about why you shouldn't do something wrong?
I haven't read the whole thread but did the first bit and the last couple pages, but I don't think I'm off topic.
I think the whole idea of sin in a bloodline in born of ignorance and is an attempt to explain why bad things happen to otherwise good people. A child dies at birth.... it must have been the fault of the parent or some ancestor because why would a just God allow this to happen. That sort of thing. There is that, but then at other points in the Bible and in other cultures it is more of a racist/xenophobia. i.e. Don't marry outside of the chosen group because everyone else's blood is tainted. So it is either fear or ignorance... and not the good kind of fear.
. . .
ignorance of what?
what is bad and what is good?
don't marry outside the chosen group can be explained by genetics. species generally like to breed with similar, because their genes have proven to work, but not too similar . . . so people come up with a religious reason for this biological behavior . . .
I think I answered these things right within the same sentence and the one following. Ignorance of why bad things happen to good people. An example of that would be the next sentence. A child (i think most people think of them as innocent and "good"... don't really need to get philosophical about what good is here) dies. In this case as in most cases I would consider death to be a bad thing. Agree? We could bring in more examples but it is not about what I think is good or bad but what the people that don't understand why something they think is bad is happening to someone they think is good. Understand what I'm saying?
don't marry outside the chosen group can be explained by genetics. species generally like to breed with similar, because their genes have proven to work, but not too similar . . . so people come up with a religious reason for this biological behavior . . .
Well you would be mistaken in this case. Not inter-species reproduction, that is typically never a better outcome, but we are all humans here and I was specifically referring to humans (maybe I missed something in the thread). In humans it is better to have more genetic variability. Conversely getting too close to your own family the worse it is, because you will have less genetic variability. There is something to be said about attraction as well. Let people mate with those they are attracted to not who the leader says you should or shouldn't get together with. You really think these religious and political rulers were reacting to some inherent biological behavior and not years of conflict over land and gods backed by religious dogma and political decree?
Well you would be mistaken in this case. Not inter-species reproduction, that is typically never a better outcome, but we are all humans here and I was specifically referring to humans (maybe I missed something in the thread). In humans it is better to have more genetic variability. Conversely getting too close to your own family the worse it is, because you will have less genetic variability. There is something to be said about attraction as well. Let people mate with those they are attracted to not who the leader says you should or shouldn't get together with. You really think these religious and political rulers were reacting to some inherent biological behavior and not years of conflict over land and gods backed by religious dogma and political decree?
I wasn't talking about inter-species reproduction. I was talking about within a species. If I have time I'll try to find a link on the subject.
I think I answered these things right within the same sentence and the one following. Ignorance of why bad things happen to good people. An example of that would be the next sentence. A child (i think most people think of them as innocent and "good"... don't really need to get philosophical about what good is here) dies. In this case as in most cases I would consider death to be a bad thing. Agree? We could bring in more examples but it is not about what I think is good or bad but what the people that don't understand why something they think is bad is happening to someone they think is good. Understand what I'm saying?
. . .
there is no such thing as good or bad. people make this distinction up and then try to make pet theories up when things don't add up. One could reevaluate why they consider things "good" or "bad", and redefine them, if it so troubles them.
you've brought up "rulers" now. hmm. . . "religious dogma" "political decree" "years of conflict . . ." You believe religion came from rulers first? Or religion came, then rulers learned to use it, as any opportunity?
there is no such thing as good or bad. people make this distinction up and then try to make pet theories up when things don't add up. One could reevaluate why they consider things "good" or "bad", and redefine them, if it so troubles them.
you've brought up "rulers" now. hmm. . . "religious dogma" "political decree" "years of conflict . . ." You believe religion came from rulers first? Or religion came, then rulers learned to use it, as any opportunity?
According to the Word of the Lord, RELATIONSHIP came first and then when A&E decided to go on their own, subsequent religion (they decided to serve themselves) came into play. Thus, because the Lord still wanted a relationship with A&E He eventually established a better religion where they would get their eyes off of their own selves. Besides, God created us to desire to worship something (it is supposed to be our Creator), therefore, He corrected their fault and I believe He is bringing those that desire Him to live eternally with Him. Unfortunately, those that want to remain in a self worship status, will spend an eternity apart from their Creator. :(
My "sex talk" with my father was "don't become a homo, and don't you dare bring an unbelieving wife into this house!"
Whoah, you and I sound like we must have been brothers or something. I would have given the exact same summary of my conversations with my parents. It's funny how while I ended up not being a homo, I became the unbeliever and my wife is a believer in a different sect of Christianity than TWI.
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cman
skewed is the perception of such a happening
and even moreso the ones that were there
including Peter
and amen brother sirg
cause no matter how it comes some will get it
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brideofjc
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brideofjc
Hey there...wanna ride in my brand new wagon????
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GarthP2000
Amazing the leaps of flawed presumptions some people make.
Ie., for an example of said flawed presumptions, ... my dear, at what point did I ever communicate any problem with judges passing judgment upon the convicted. Your comparison of that with the 'judgments' of your god is flawed. For one thing, judges (if they are good ones; ... take note of that point, will you please? ;) ) pass judgment upon the convicted because the convicted were charged, tried, and convicted, by proof, of the crimes they were charged with. That I have no problem with.
What I do have a problem with (now try to keep up here, ok?) is the 'judgment' of a deity that makes someone 'guilty' when they have done nothing to deserve it. And sorry Charlie, but this argument of because we are A&E's descendants doesn't cut it. Ie., if I'm gonna catch hell for something, it had better be for something that *I* did, or something that *I* am directly responsible for. Outside of that, ... I ain't gonna pay. Oh and, arguments of "well, you're just not spiritual enough to understand" are just as much of a gutless copout.
And you know, I would rather die forever in the grave, than to be a part of some 'heavenly' Borg-like collective for The Lord. "You will be assimilated into the collective. ... Resistance is futile!"
I think not. <_<
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Bolshevik
I could see one human being killing another for touching their prize fruit tree. It's not unfathomable.
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GarthP2000
Not unfathomable, ... but still not moral either.
Your point? :unsure:
P.S., please see the latest dozen or so posts in the 'Calvinism a Cult?' thread (particularly the pro-Calvinist posts
) as to why I have reached the conclusions I do. If anything, that kind of mentality only strengthens my point of view.
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RumRunner
Heh heh heh... well stated Garth - ever thought that the verse "no man cometh unto the father but by me" sounds like - guilty until proven innocent? You're doomed Garth - doomed - you will spend eternity having one 15 minute break per day where you can drink coffee and brandy and smoke a cigar...the other 23:45 you will stand on your head in 2 feet of cr@p...Oh sorry was remembering the corps training...
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cman
Will God judge Christ?
The first and the last ADAM.
The alpha and omega.
The beginning and end-which is to say eternal?
Does 'judgement' scare you?
The first Adam was afraid.
Not the last.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The last put forth his hand and took ALSO of the tree of life.
To Eat and live forever.
Mankind is one as Christ is Adam. And Adam (mankind) is Christ.
The judgment is closer then once though.
And not as man judges but as one who is mankind.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
"and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life"
Two trees, two being one.
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Bramble
If anything, the posts of the last few days on this and the other thread have portrayed a belief in a powerful god--but not a just god, or a loving god, or a god who feels any responsibility about wht he created--unlike a parent --or even a rational god. A god who does what he pleases.
Seems quite different than the Jesus of the gospels who seemed to care for the needs of actual individual people. But Jesus doesn't have much gong on in the fear motvation category.
Seems to me that fear motivation is deeply ingrained in some types of Christianity, and accepted as a good thing.
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Bolshevik
I don't understand why you stop at religion. Why not take it a step further?
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GarthP2000
I don't just stop at religion. I also have this point of view towards many aspects of staunch conservatism as well as other philosophies/mentalities that wind up being abusive, yet demand blind obedience from their followers.
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Bolshevik
and what's left?
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GarthP2000
Hopefully, the kind of mentalities and philosophies that are more decent towards people.
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Bolshevik
I don't share your optimism. I believe the result will be more of the same, but in a new form.
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lindyhopper
I haven't read the whole thread but did the first bit and the last couple pages, but I don't think I'm off topic.
I think the whole idea of sin in a bloodline in born of ignorance and is an attempt to explain why bad things happen to otherwise good people. A child dies at birth.... it must have been the fault of the parent or some ancestor because why would a just God allow this to happen. That sort of thing. There is that, but then at other points in the Bible and in other cultures it is more of a racist/xenophobia. i.e. Don't marry outside of the chosen group because everyone else's blood is tainted. So it is either fear or ignorance... and not the good kind of fear.
I think regarding this whole fear being awe and reverence idea... I don't quite get it. Lets put this in human terms or better yet sci-fi terms. Lets say there was a race of aliens that came here overtook the earth and gave us all rules. They weren't overly burdensome, but they were limiting in some ways and they included reverence and thanks be shown and paid to them. They had super human powers, claimed they seeded the earth to start life here, and could crush us at anytime, but saw a benefit in keeping us alive as long as we played by their rules and they would reward you if you did. Part of the rules would be to work and pay them, I don't know, lets say 10% of your earnings to them. We'll call it a tax on your "increase." How many of you would obey out of awe and reverence of their power, ability, and generosity and how many would obey out of actual fear for your lives?
Stories would most likely circulate about how Billy and Jane were struck down for hiding their earnings (cheating on their tax forms) and were discovered by the alien overseers. Would that be a story of how to do what is right, a story about how to go about paying your taxes, or a story about why you shouldn't do something wrong?
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cman
Acts is a collection of circulated stories.
With changes through time.
As well as the gospels, and not just the 4 in kjv.
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Bolshevik
ignorance of what?
what is bad and what is good?
don't marry outside the chosen group can be explained by genetics. species generally like to breed with similar, because their genes have proven to work, but not too similar . . . so people come up with a religious reason for this biological behavior . . .
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lindyhopper
I think I answered these things right within the same sentence and the one following. Ignorance of why bad things happen to good people. An example of that would be the next sentence. A child (i think most people think of them as innocent and "good"... don't really need to get philosophical about what good is here) dies. In this case as in most cases I would consider death to be a bad thing. Agree? We could bring in more examples but it is not about what I think is good or bad but what the people that don't understand why something they think is bad is happening to someone they think is good. Understand what I'm saying?
Well you would be mistaken in this case. Not inter-species reproduction, that is typically never a better outcome, but we are all humans here and I was specifically referring to humans (maybe I missed something in the thread). In humans it is better to have more genetic variability. Conversely getting too close to your own family the worse it is, because you will have less genetic variability. There is something to be said about attraction as well. Let people mate with those they are attracted to not who the leader says you should or shouldn't get together with. You really think these religious and political rulers were reacting to some inherent biological behavior and not years of conflict over land and gods backed by religious dogma and political decree?
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Bolshevik
I wasn't talking about inter-species reproduction. I was talking about within a species. If I have time I'll try to find a link on the subject.
where does religion come from?
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Bolshevik
there is no such thing as good or bad. people make this distinction up and then try to make pet theories up when things don't add up. One could reevaluate why they consider things "good" or "bad", and redefine them, if it so troubles them.
you've brought up "rulers" now. hmm. . . "religious dogma" "political decree" "years of conflict . . ." You believe religion came from rulers first? Or religion came, then rulers learned to use it, as any opportunity?
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waysider
When I was in TWI, you weren't supposed to date or marry anyone who was not in TWI.
Now take that a step further. If you were Way Corps, you weren't supposed to date or marry outside the WC.
If you were Fellow Laborer, --------You get the picture, I'm sure.
You may laugh at us who took these things seriously if it makes you feel better.
I assure you, though, many of us placed a great deal of misguided importance on this.
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Bolshevik
My "sex talk" with my father was "don't become a homo, and don't you dare bring an unbelieving wife into this house!"
I believe the behavioral tendency to set up boundaries like these are inherent within our genetics, like a lot of things.
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brideofjc
According to the Word of the Lord, RELATIONSHIP came first and then when A&E decided to go on their own, subsequent religion (they decided to serve themselves) came into play. Thus, because the Lord still wanted a relationship with A&E He eventually established a better religion where they would get their eyes off of their own selves. Besides, God created us to desire to worship something (it is supposed to be our Creator), therefore, He corrected their fault and I believe He is bringing those that desire Him to live eternally with Him. Unfortunately, those that want to remain in a self worship status, will spend an eternity apart from their Creator. :(
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Mister P-Mosh
Whoah, you and I sound like we must have been brothers or something. I would have given the exact same summary of my conversations with my parents. It's funny how while I ended up not being a homo, I became the unbeliever and my wife is a believer in a different sect of Christianity than TWI.
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