I suspect you haven't read this thread since you don't know who A&S are. Sheesh. And yes, I am aware that people die. If you'd bothered to read the thread perhaps you could contribute on topic--all here know that humans die, that is not what we are discussing..
It is really healthy to question these things. To ask yourself what you believe, but more importantly, WHY you believe them. Maybe we find out. . . we don't really believe them.
I still have lots of questions about things. . . yours about Job, were the SAME ones I asked myself.
I did always feel for his first kids!! His wife made it BTW.
Lot's of good stuff in that book. Took me awhile to come to terms with it. . .
Rascal, many things can be learned from not actual accounts, but myths and storytelling...perhaps some records are just that. Didn't Jesus teach in parables--maybe others did, also, adn stories such as Jonak were perhaps not MEANT to be taken as black and white literal truth.
A&S reads like a 3 act play, with repetition that seems not true at all to real life. Stylized.
None of the gospels or Acts were written as they were happening.
In fact the dates known of when they were written are well after any of these people would still be alive.
Geisha, your right, faith is not in a book.
Although it can capture where our faith is,
it is not bound by what it says,
but free to move in different directions.
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Hells bells, now that we know about fish or whales, or sharks physiology, the Jonas story doesn`t make much sense either.
I read a book where the archeologist said that many of our bible stories are variations of texts found in sumeria I think, that the judean prisoner/scholars were required to translate ...that they in turn took these stopries back and it became part of their lore.
I am thinking in particular, the tower of babel, and the flood story.
The flood story is in every ancient culture just about. I wonder why?
Whether they lied to Him or not is irrelevant to the point that I and others here are trying to get across. The point that the "HS killed them" in the first place is what we're focusing on. ... Ok, so they lied to him. Naughty, naughty! ... But you don't have the frikkin' death penalty for lying, fer crying out loud. And then for that kind of punishment to be illustrated as some sort of Righteous Judgement of a Holy God takes the cake, ... for an abuse based belief!
I can just imagine your reaction if this was some Islamic story about 2 people lying to Allah, and then being beheaded by Mohammad for it. "Why, how _horrible_!! How could those cruel, pagan worshipping Muslims be that way? ... Christianity is s-o-o much kinder and loving and forgiving." ... yadayadayada <_<
But _your_ God (HS) does it, ... and no problemo.
When you're the Creator and all is yours anywhooo, if you want to pass judgement upon what you have deemed evil, then its rather pedentic isn't it? As far as Allah... uhhhmmm... are you indulging in non sequitur fantasies?
Death is the correct consequence for lieing to the holy spirit??? Does this sound in any way just or even reasonable to you? Really?
And what about the Father god--is this the act of a loving father? Death?
To the Christian who believes in a Holy God...YES! Becauseit answers your question...it was just...even if you choose to noy believe it.
I don't think there is cman. There is the account in Matthew 12 about blasphemy against the HS. I am not sure that is even possible today, as it was done when Jesus was on earth. It is interesting that blasphemy against Jesus, will be forgiven, but not against the HS.
Not really too sure about this account. I think it is attributing the works of Jesus done by the power of the HS to the devil. It is pretty strong language anyway.
30"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"
That is the other one I thought of indicating the HS and sins against Him.
I believe this is possible even today Geisha. I think it possible today that Christians could transgress too. It speaks of works, not Lordship.
The flood story is in every ancient culture just about. I wonder why?
... including cultures that _predate_ the Bible, ... by centuries. ... s-o-o it begs the question. Where did the flood story originate again?? ;)
When you're the Creator and all is yours anywhooo, if you want to pass judgement upon what you have deemed evil, then its rather pedentic isn't it?
Flawed response, _particularly_ considering the oft-made (and loud, I daresay) claim that the aforementioned deity is (supposedly) perfectly moral. ... S-o-o, if _we_ behave in like manner, and it is considered _immoral_ (and that by the same 'holy and moral' standard that comes from said deity) to inflict murder (s-u-r-e, let's cut the crap and call it for what it really is, shall we? ;) ) upon someone for doing nothing more than lying, ... and yet this aforementioned perfectly moral deity does the same, ....... then, sorry Charlie, but you don't get to get away with the "but He's the Creator of the Universe" copout as a means of getting around that blatant discrepancy.
As far as Allah... uhhhmmm... are you indulging in non sequitur fantasies?
N-o-o-o, I'm indulging in logical comparisons of actions between one deity and another, and exposing the practical cognitive dissonance that many people (ohhhh, ... like you) apply when they see the injustice done by one deity (the one they don't believe in), and totally miss seeing it done by the other deity (the one that they do believe in). <_< ... It's kinda like how it's easier to see "the mite in your brother's eye" but not the "log in your own" principle.
If God, in a righteous, just, loving act, can kill a lier for lying, what then prevents his children followers etc from doing the same? Are they not supposed to imitate their God? Isn't that the type of thought that fuels religious violence?
I don't fully understand the record of A&S, but I wanted to comment on a couple of recent posts.
The flood story is in every ancient culture just about. I wonder why?
... including cultures that _predate_ the Bible, ... by centuries. ... s-o-o it begs the question. Where did the flood story originate again?? wink.gif
It began with the event itself. If many cultures have accounts of it, doesn't that suggest that there is a common event behind all those accounts?
When you're the Creator and all is yours anywhooo, if you want to pass judgement upon what you have deemed evil, then its rather pedentic isn't it?
Flawed response, _particularly_ considering the oft-made (and loud, I daresay) claim that the aforementioned deity is (supposedly) perfectly moral. ... S-o-o, if _we_ behave in like manner, and it is considered _immoral_ (and that by the same 'holy and moral' standard that comes from said deity) to inflict murder (s-u-r-e, let's cut the crap and call it for what it really is, shall we? wink.gif ) upon someone for doing nothing more than lying, ... and yet this aforementioned perfectly moral deity does the same, ....... then, sorry Charlie, but you don't get to get away with the "but He's the Creator of the Universe" copout as a means of getting around that blatant discrepancy.
That depends on your definition of "perfectly moral." Would it be "moral" to allow sin to go unpunished? (Again, I'm speaking in general here, not relating to the A&S record specifically.) I'm sure you know there are different Hebrew words used for "kill" depending on whether it's talking about murder or judicial killing (which only God has the right to decree, IMO).
As far as Allah... uhhhmmm... are you indulging in non sequitur fantasies?
N-o-o-o, I'm indulging in logical comparisons of actions between one deity and another, and exposing the practical cognitive dissonance that many people (ohhhh, ... like you) apply when they see the injustice done by one deity (the one they don't believe in), and totally miss seeing it done by the other deity (the one that they do believe in). dry.gif ... It's kinda like how it's easier to see "the mite in your brother's eye" but not the "log in your own" principle.
From what I've read (which admittedly is not a lot), Allah as presented in the Quran does not exhibit the mercy and grace to balance out the judgment that YHVH does in the Old Testament. Not to mention that Muslims do not believe Allah sent his son to die for our sins.
If God, in a righteous, just, loving act, can kill a lier for lying, what then prevents his children followers etc from doing the same? Are they not supposed to imitate their God? Isn't that the type of thought that fuels religious violence?
What SHOULD prevent that (although sadly it doesn't always) is the fact that His children are told to be imitators of God in context of his love, mercy, and grace. It doesn't say we are to imitate Him in wrath and judgment. Unfortunately, failure to make this distinction does indeed fuel religious violence.
Eph. 4:31 - 5:2:
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
1 Be ye therefore followers [mimetes, imitators] of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
If one wants to believe what is written without question then there is a flaw in using what God has already given us. To take what someone has written and hang on to it literally with out seeking it's wisdom and understanding rules out any input from the one that can show what is needed.
They marveled at Jesus at an early age because of his QUESTIONS.
I always think of-
Proverbs 1
1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Yeah Dark Sayings-have we even heard them yet?
know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding
These things must be recognized in order to see them.
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels
To seek such is not bound in a book, but from the mouths of those living that are usually ignored.
There is no amount of study that will give the answers, only background. And this must be ready for new light.
No man need to teach it to you, but there words will inspire more or other understandings and wisdom. To hear the tongue of the spirit is life, and is neither bound by definitions, or books.
If the surface is only seen then the deep things of God remain hidden.
For the deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit.
Chilling! I never really quite "got" this account as to the sin. I have read different takes on it. . . seems there are several schools of thought.
Is it a conscious act? Must be. . . right?
I would say that it most definitely has to be conscious. This was why A&S bought it. Peter tagged them on it, why have you LIED to the HS? This wasn't just a blunder or omission, but a deliberate attempt to hide the price of the land.
So is this unforgivable sin, it has to be a deliberate knowing that it is a work of the Lord, yet spouting out that its really from the devil. This is why the Lord Jesus tagged the Pharisees. These weren't everyday fishermen with only a limited amount of Scriptural knowledge, these were the elite religious people, priests, Levites, and even eventually the high priest. They knew the Scriptures forward and backward and this is also why the Lord Jesus pounded them with (paraphrase), "You think you have salvation in YOUR Scriptures/Law." They knew what the Scriptures said about the coming Messias, and they knew that Jesus was filling the bill on every count. Another place of Scripture...the Pharisees were hearing Him speak and they could see that the people were following HIM and no longer THEM and they wanted to DESTROY HIM. I believe it is called JEALOUSY. So the Lord Jesus told them, they could speak badly about Him, but not the Holy Spirit. NOT EVER! I don't plan on ever doing it. If I WERE to get close, I would hope the Holy Spirit would lead me away from the offence.
... including cultures that _predate_ the Bible, ... by centuries. ... s-o-o it begs the question. Where did the flood story originate again??
I believe it began with NOAH, Garth.
Flawed response, _particularly_ considering the oft-made (and loud, I daresay) claim that the aforementioned deity is (supposedly) perfectly moral. ... S-o-o, if _we_ behave in like manner, and it is considered _immoral_ (and that by the same 'holy and moral' standard that comes from said deity) to inflict murder (s-u-r-e, let's cut the crap and call it for what it really is, shall we? wink.gif ) upon someone for doing nothing more than lying, ... and yet this aforementioned perfectly moral deity does the same, ....... then, sorry Charlie, but you don't get to get away with the "but He's the Creator of the Universe" copout as a means of getting around that blatant discrepancy.
I do believe that this is a forum for people's VIEWS, and I have exposited mine. My beliefs are that Yahweh is a perfectly moral God and as such, He has the RIGHT to judge that which HE CREATED. PERIOD. Since you as well as everyone else are the CREATED ONES, you and I don't have really a whole lot of say about it. Do we? Now you may flap your gums about it, but it won't ever really change much about it, will it?
N-o-o-o, I'm indulging in logical comparisons of actions between one deity and another, and exposing the practical cognitive dissonance that many people (ohhhh, ... like you) apply when they see the injustice done by one deity (the one they don't believe in), and totally miss seeing it done by the other deity (the one that they do believe in). ... It's kinda like how it's easier to see "the mite in your brother's eye" but not the "log in your own" principle.
Yeah, that would work if Allah were real. However, it is interesting that this god never shows up until about 600 A.D. and he shows up by a "prophet" who hated the Jews. Now, about these so-called (yours) acts of injustice done by one deity and not the other per se. Israel was commanded to kill the nations that inhabited the land that Yahweh was giving to them. HOWEVER, at no time (that I can think of offhand, I don't have my Bible handy) was Israel ever told by Yahweh, when they were at peace, to rise up and go over to such a such land (not their promised land) and just slaughter simply because those people don't believe in the same God. However, this is not the case for the lesser deity in question (the one not mine),
Ahh, the slogan...."REMEMBER 911"
Even today, they are still busy just slaughtering. Israel defends and fights back, yes......for the incursions on their land or just fed up with missiles coming in....and so they rise up and send them back or invade.
If God, in a righteous, just, loving act, can kill a lier for lying, what then prevents his children followers etc from doing the same? Are they not supposed to imitate their God? Isn't that the type of thought that fuels religious violence?
We are told to imitate our God, yes....but we are not EVER told to BE HIM. There are some things that the created ones cannot usurp, and this is Yahweh's prerogative right to judge.
If one wants to believe what is written without question then there is a flaw in using what God has already given us. To take what someone has written and hang on to it literally with out seeking it's wisdom and understanding rules out any input from the one that can show what is needed.
They marveled at Jesus at an early age because of his QUESTIONS.
I always think of-
Proverbs 1
1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Yeah Dark Sayings-have we even heard them yet?
know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding
These things must be recognized in order to see them.
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels
To seek such is not bound in a book, but from the mouths of those living that are usually ignored.
There is no amount of study that will give the answers, only background. And this must be ready for new light.
No man need to teach it to you, but there words will inspire more or other understandings and wisdom. To hear the tongue of the spirit is life, and is neither bound by definitions, or books.
If the surface is only seen then the deep things of God remain hidden.
For the deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit.
The Lord Jesus studied the Torah, for example when He finally stood up to read Isaiah in the synagogue of Nazareth, it says he opened it to just that place. Now that took a lot of reading of that particular scroll, to just o-p-e-n it to that exact spot to read. It doesn't say that he had to search for it and it took him 20-30 minutes to find the verse he was interesting in reading.
The Lord Jesus venerated the WORD OF HIS FATHER, written down in the scrolls. It doesn't preclude the idea that He didn't spend a lot of deep intense prayer (conversations) WITH HIS FATHER.
It began with the event itself. If many cultures have accounts of it, doesn't that suggest that there is a common event behind all those accounts?
Good point indeed. Of course, there is still a difference between a massive flooding of a regional size (say, in the Tigris-Euphrates and surrounding area, and backed up by archeological evidence) and a global one of the bible (one for which absolutely _no_ geological/archeological evidence has been found). Also, notice that said stories have only been found around said regional area. Ie., no ancient Chinese, Mayan, South African, etc. stories of a 'worldwide' flood.
That depends on your definition of "perfectly moral." Would it be "moral" to allow sin to go unpunished?
No, but I would have the punishment fit the crime, ... which would be part of my definition of 'perfectly moral'. ;)
I'm sure you know there are different Hebrew words used for "kill" depending on whether it's talking about murder or judicial killing (which only God has the right to decree, IMO).
The judicial killing would be irrelevant to the A&S situation, ... unless capital punishment was allowed in church government/polity back then, ... which would _significantly_ solidify the abusive treatment of believers argument against the 1st century church, ... wouldn't you agree? <_< In which case, it would arguably be murder.
From what I've read (which admittedly is not a lot), Allah as presented in the Quran does not exhibit the mercy and grace to balance out the judgment that YHVH does in the Old Testament.
From what I've seen of the accounts in the OT, God's 'judgment', ie., the flood, slaughtering thousands of pagans (for no better reason than worshiping 'false gods'), having King Saul go in and slaughter thousands of 'infants and sucklings', etc., ... and even in having the entire human race bear the punishment of Adam and Eve's sin, ..... sorry but, to me, that pretty much cancels out any 'grace and mercy' you might speak of.
From what I've seen of the accounts in the OT, God's 'judgment', ie., the flood, slaughtering thousands of pagans (for no better reason than worshiping 'false gods'), having King Saul go in and slaughter thousands of 'infants and sucklings', etc., ... and even in having the entire human race bear the punishment of Adam and Eve's sin, ..... sorry but, to me, that pretty much cancels out any 'grace and mercy' you might speak of.
The comparison to Allah stays put.
all of the killings hinge on the last one you mentioned, adam and eve's sin. all killing by god after that is a big fat "so what?". not killing people would be delaying the inevitable. "grace and mercy" is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second.
all of the killings hinge on the last one you mentioned, adam and eve's sin. all killing by god after that is a big fat "so what?". not killing people would be delaying the inevitable. "grace and mercy" is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second.
Now let's think about this one for a minute here, shall we? (For if anything, you just gave me new ammo, my friend)
1) "all killing by god after that is a big fat 'so what?'" ... which further strengthens my argument re: the Adam and Eve point. They do the equivalent of walking on the grass (okay, so Eve talking to a snake does bring up the weirdness factor), and not only are they sentenced to death, but _every single one_ of their descendants (ie., the ENTIRE human race) gets the punishment as well, even if we had absolutely nothing to do with the sin. But now your "big fat 'so what'" comment underscores that further, and not only that, but pretty much shoots thru the foot religious people's own argument about life being 'precious and holy'. _We_ are expected to treat life as precious and holy, yet your god (according to you) has the "big fat 'so what'" attitude when he kills people? And you and Bride have no trouble with that HUGE discrepancy??
2) "not killing people would be delaying the inevitable." ... so let's just slaughter 'em all, and thus quicken the judgment of God? ... Sure you guys weren't working on Dubya's Iraq War staff? <_<
3) "'grace and mercy' is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second." ... again, all based upon Adam and Eve's sin in the garden. _They_ eat the fruit (as well as talking to some stupid snake), and _we_ receive the punishment of being at such an enmity with such a 'righteous god' (Yah! Right! <_< ), that to allow us to exist for "more than a second" is such wondrous 'grace and mercy'.
:blink:
Any of you guys ever think this crap through? Just for once?? ..... But n-o-o-o, you've been 'brainwas'--errr, I mean, taught that this is the Holy Wisdom of God to such an extent that you are not to question it, ... at ALL. Hell, you could take Weirwille's garbage and treat it the same way, and if you have been browbeaten and guilt tripped enough, you'd treat his dogma with the same blind, terrified obedience. ..... Ya know, maybe I'm beginning to see why some people think that this kind of 'blind faith' mentality is regarded as 'mind control'.
Fortunately, more and more people these days are turning away from such fundamentalist garbage, or are at least starting to be more bold in standing up to it. More and more people are being skeptics and are looking at this kind of fundamentalism with more scrutiny and with a lot less 'fear of the Lord' based obedience.
Now let's think about this one for a minute here, shall we? (For if anything, you just gave me new ammo, my friend)
1) "all killing by god after that is a big fat 'so what?'" ... which further strengthens my argument re: the Adam and Eve point. They do the equivalent of walking on the grass (okay, so Eve talking to a snake does bring up the weirdness factor), and not only are they sentenced to death, but _every single one_ of their descendants (ie., the ENTIRE human race) gets the punishment as well, even if we had absolutely nothing to do with the sin. But now your "big fat 'so what'" comment underscores that further, and not only that, but pretty much shoots thru the foot religious people's own argument about life being 'precious and holy'. _We_ are expected to treat life as precious and holy, yet your god (according to you) has the "big fat 'so what'" attitude when he kills people? And you and Bride have no trouble with that HUGE discrepancy??
2) "not killing people would be delaying the inevitable." ... so let's just slaughter 'em all, and thus quicken the judgment of God? ... Sure you guys weren't working on Dubya's Iraq War staff? <_<
3) "'grace and mercy' is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second." ... again, all based upon Adam and Eve's sin in the garden. _They_ eat the fruit (as well as talking to some stupid snake), and _we_ receive the punishment of being at such an enmity with such a 'righteous god' (Yah! Right! <_< ), that to allow us to exist for "more than a second" is such wondrous 'grace and mercy'.
:blink:
Any of you guys ever think this crap through? Just for once?? ..... But n-o-o-o, you've been 'brainwas'--errr, I mean, taught that this is the Holy Wisdom of God to such an extent that you are not to question it, ... at ALL. Hell, you could take Weirwille's garbage and treat it the same way, and if you have been browbeaten and guilt tripped enough, you'd treat his dogma with the same blind, terrified obedience. ..... Ya know, maybe I'm beginning to see why some people think that this kind of 'blind faith' mentality is regarded as 'mind control'.
Fortunately, more and more people these days are turning away from such fundamentalist garbage, or are at least starting to be more bold in standing up to it. More and more people are being skeptics and are looking at this kind of fundamentalism with more scrutiny and with a lot less 'fear of the Lord' based obedience.
You don't want to join them, fine.
Your loss.
Yeah. And who gives a crap about context? not you, no sir. :)
religion comes from people garth. First they murder. Then they come up with the excuse. Yes?
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Bolshevik
I thought it was about control mechanisms.
Oh well, I'll butt out.
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geisha779
BTW Rascal,
It is really healthy to question these things. To ask yourself what you believe, but more importantly, WHY you believe them. Maybe we find out. . . we don't really believe them.
I still have lots of questions about things. . . yours about Job, were the SAME ones I asked myself.
I did always feel for his first kids!! His wife made it BTW.
Lot's of good stuff in that book. Took me awhile to come to terms with it. . .
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JeffSjo
God help me, I believe it happened as it was written and can't seem to do much about that and I don't think I want to.
But then reading this scripture helped me to resist the abuse, not subjegate me.
And I don't have anything bad to say about any of the rest of you either.
SO THERE! :P
Actually Bolshevik, where some see control mechanisms I just read about two people dropping dead.
I'm going to consider what Socks and TheInvisibleDan said too....HHHMMM.
(edited for spelling)
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Bramble
Rascal, many things can be learned from not actual accounts, but myths and storytelling...perhaps some records are just that. Didn't Jesus teach in parables--maybe others did, also, adn stories such as Jonak were perhaps not MEANT to be taken as black and white literal truth.
A&S reads like a 3 act play, with repetition that seems not true at all to real life. Stylized.
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cman
That's a good point Bramble.
None of the gospels or Acts were written as they were happening.
In fact the dates known of when they were written are well after any of these people would still be alive.
Geisha, your right, faith is not in a book.
Although it can capture where our faith is,
it is not bound by what it says,
but free to move in different directions.
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
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brideofjc
The flood story is in every ancient culture just about. I wonder why?
When you're the Creator and all is yours anywhooo, if you want to pass judgement upon what you have deemed evil, then its rather pedentic isn't it? As far as Allah... uhhhmmm... are you indulging in non sequitur fantasies?
To the Christian who believes in a Holy God...YES! Becauseit answers your question...it was just...even if you choose to noy believe it.
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brideofjc
I believe this is possible even today Geisha. I think it possible today that Christians could transgress too. It speaks of works, not Lordship.
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geisha779
Chilling! I never really quite "got" this account as to the sin. I have read different takes on it. . . seems there are several schools of thought.
Is it a conscious act? Must be. . . right?
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GarthP2000
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Bramble
If God, in a righteous, just, loving act, can kill a lier for lying, what then prevents his children followers etc from doing the same? Are they not supposed to imitate their God? Isn't that the type of thought that fuels religious violence?
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Mark Clarke
I don't fully understand the record of A&S, but I wanted to comment on a couple of recent posts.
It began with the event itself. If many cultures have accounts of it, doesn't that suggest that there is a common event behind all those accounts?
That depends on your definition of "perfectly moral." Would it be "moral" to allow sin to go unpunished? (Again, I'm speaking in general here, not relating to the A&S record specifically.) I'm sure you know there are different Hebrew words used for "kill" depending on whether it's talking about murder or judicial killing (which only God has the right to decree, IMO).
From what I've read (which admittedly is not a lot), Allah as presented in the Quran does not exhibit the mercy and grace to balance out the judgment that YHVH does in the Old Testament. Not to mention that Muslims do not believe Allah sent his son to die for our sins.
What SHOULD prevent that (although sadly it doesn't always) is the fact that His children are told to be imitators of God in context of his love, mercy, and grace. It doesn't say we are to imitate Him in wrath and judgment. Unfortunately, failure to make this distinction does indeed fuel religious violence.
Eph. 4:31 - 5:2:
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
1 Be ye therefore followers [mimetes, imitators] of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
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cman
If one wants to believe what is written without question then there is a flaw in using what God has already given us. To take what someone has written and hang on to it literally with out seeking it's wisdom and understanding rules out any input from the one that can show what is needed.
They marveled at Jesus at an early age because of his QUESTIONS.
I always think of-
Proverbs 1
1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Yeah Dark Sayings-have we even heard them yet?
know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding
These things must be recognized in order to see them.
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels
To seek such is not bound in a book, but from the mouths of those living that are usually ignored.
There is no amount of study that will give the answers, only background. And this must be ready for new light.
No man need to teach it to you, but there words will inspire more or other understandings and wisdom. To hear the tongue of the spirit is life, and is neither bound by definitions, or books.
If the surface is only seen then the deep things of God remain hidden.
For the deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit.
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brideofjc
I would say that it most definitely has to be conscious. This was why A&S bought it. Peter tagged them on it, why have you LIED to the HS? This wasn't just a blunder or omission, but a deliberate attempt to hide the price of the land.
So is this unforgivable sin, it has to be a deliberate knowing that it is a work of the Lord, yet spouting out that its really from the devil. This is why the Lord Jesus tagged the Pharisees. These weren't everyday fishermen with only a limited amount of Scriptural knowledge, these were the elite religious people, priests, Levites, and even eventually the high priest. They knew the Scriptures forward and backward and this is also why the Lord Jesus pounded them with (paraphrase), "You think you have salvation in YOUR Scriptures/Law." They knew what the Scriptures said about the coming Messias, and they knew that Jesus was filling the bill on every count. Another place of Scripture...the Pharisees were hearing Him speak and they could see that the people were following HIM and no longer THEM and they wanted to DESTROY HIM. I believe it is called JEALOUSY. So the Lord Jesus told them, they could speak badly about Him, but not the Holy Spirit. NOT EVER! I don't plan on ever doing it. If I WERE to get close, I would hope the Holy Spirit would lead me away from the offence.
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brideofjc
... including cultures that _predate_ the Bible, ... by centuries. ... s-o-o it begs the question. Where did the flood story originate again??
I believe it began with NOAH, Garth.
Flawed response, _particularly_ considering the oft-made (and loud, I daresay) claim that the aforementioned deity is (supposedly) perfectly moral. ... S-o-o, if _we_ behave in like manner, and it is considered _immoral_ (and that by the same 'holy and moral' standard that comes from said deity) to inflict murder (s-u-r-e, let's cut the crap and call it for what it really is, shall we? wink.gif ) upon someone for doing nothing more than lying, ... and yet this aforementioned perfectly moral deity does the same, ....... then, sorry Charlie, but you don't get to get away with the "but He's the Creator of the Universe" copout as a means of getting around that blatant discrepancy.
I do believe that this is a forum for people's VIEWS, and I have exposited mine. My beliefs are that Yahweh is a perfectly moral God and as such, He has the RIGHT to judge that which HE CREATED. PERIOD. Since you as well as everyone else are the CREATED ONES, you and I don't have really a whole lot of say about it. Do we? Now you may flap your gums about it, but it won't ever really change much about it, will it?
N-o-o-o, I'm indulging in logical comparisons of actions between one deity and another, and exposing the practical cognitive dissonance that many people (ohhhh, ... like you) apply when they see the injustice done by one deity (the one they don't believe in), and totally miss seeing it done by the other deity (the one that they do believe in). ... It's kinda like how it's easier to see "the mite in your brother's eye" but not the "log in your own" principle.
Yeah, that would work if Allah were real. However, it is interesting that this god never shows up until about 600 A.D. and he shows up by a "prophet" who hated the Jews. Now, about these so-called (yours) acts of injustice done by one deity and not the other per se. Israel was commanded to kill the nations that inhabited the land that Yahweh was giving to them. HOWEVER, at no time (that I can think of offhand, I don't have my Bible handy) was Israel ever told by Yahweh, when they were at peace, to rise up and go over to such a such land (not their promised land) and just slaughter simply because those people don't believe in the same God. However, this is not the case for the lesser deity in question (the one not mine),
Ahh, the slogan...."REMEMBER 911"
Even today, they are still busy just slaughtering. Israel defends and fights back, yes......for the incursions on their land or just fed up with missiles coming in....and so they rise up and send them back or invade.
We are told to imitate our God, yes....but we are not EVER told to BE HIM. There are some things that the created ones cannot usurp, and this is Yahweh's prerogative right to judge.
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brideofjc
The Lord Jesus studied the Torah, for example when He finally stood up to read Isaiah in the synagogue of Nazareth, it says he opened it to just that place. Now that took a lot of reading of that particular scroll, to just o-p-e-n it to that exact spot to read. It doesn't say that he had to search for it and it took him 20-30 minutes to find the verse he was interesting in reading.
The Lord Jesus venerated the WORD OF HIS FATHER, written down in the scrolls. It doesn't preclude the idea that He didn't spend a lot of deep intense prayer (conversations) WITH HIS FATHER.
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GarthP2000
Good point indeed. Of course, there is still a difference between a massive flooding of a regional size (say, in the Tigris-Euphrates and surrounding area, and backed up by archeological evidence) and a global one of the bible (one for which absolutely _no_ geological/archeological evidence has been found). Also, notice that said stories have only been found around said regional area. Ie., no ancient Chinese, Mayan, South African, etc. stories of a 'worldwide' flood.
No, but I would have the punishment fit the crime, ... which would be part of my definition of 'perfectly moral'. ;)
The judicial killing would be irrelevant to the A&S situation, ... unless capital punishment was allowed in church government/polity back then, ... which would _significantly_ solidify the abusive treatment of believers argument against the 1st century church, ... wouldn't you agree? <_< In which case, it would arguably be murder.
From what I've seen of the accounts in the OT, God's 'judgment', ie., the flood, slaughtering thousands of pagans (for no better reason than worshiping 'false gods'), having King Saul go in and slaughter thousands of 'infants and sucklings', etc., ... and even in having the entire human race bear the punishment of Adam and Eve's sin, ..... sorry but, to me, that pretty much cancels out any 'grace and mercy' you might speak of.
The comparison to Allah stays put.
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Bolshevik
all of the killings hinge on the last one you mentioned, adam and eve's sin. all killing by god after that is a big fat "so what?". not killing people would be delaying the inevitable. "grace and mercy" is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second.
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brideofjc
Well said Bolshevik!
Not prepared to argue anymore Garth? Ahh, what a party-pooper!
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GarthP2000
You wish! ;) ... and now, on to the dissection.
Now let's think about this one for a minute here, shall we? (For if anything, you just gave me new ammo, my friend)
1) "all killing by god after that is a big fat 'so what?'" ... which further strengthens my argument re: the Adam and Eve point. They do the equivalent of walking on the grass (okay, so Eve talking to a snake does bring up the weirdness factor), and not only are they sentenced to death, but _every single one_ of their descendants (ie., the ENTIRE human race) gets the punishment as well, even if we had absolutely nothing to do with the sin. But now your "big fat 'so what'" comment underscores that further, and not only that, but pretty much shoots thru the foot religious people's own argument about life being 'precious and holy'. _We_ are expected to treat life as precious and holy, yet your god (according to you) has the "big fat 'so what'" attitude when he kills people? And you and Bride have no trouble with that HUGE discrepancy??
2) "not killing people would be delaying the inevitable." ... so let's just slaughter 'em all, and thus quicken the judgment of God? ... Sure you guys weren't working on Dubya's Iraq War staff? <_<
3) "'grace and mercy' is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second." ... again, all based upon Adam and Eve's sin in the garden. _They_ eat the fruit (as well as talking to some stupid snake), and _we_ receive the punishment of being at such an enmity with such a 'righteous god' (Yah! Right! <_< ), that to allow us to exist for "more than a second" is such wondrous 'grace and mercy'.
:blink:
Any of you guys ever think this crap through? Just for once?? ..... But n-o-o-o, you've been 'brainwas'--errr, I mean, taught that this is the Holy Wisdom of God to such an extent that you are not to question it, ... at ALL. Hell, you could take Weirwille's garbage and treat it the same way, and if you have been browbeaten and guilt tripped enough, you'd treat his dogma with the same blind, terrified obedience. ..... Ya know, maybe I'm beginning to see why some people think that this kind of 'blind faith' mentality is regarded as 'mind control'.
Fortunately, more and more people these days are turning away from such fundamentalist garbage, or are at least starting to be more bold in standing up to it. More and more people are being skeptics and are looking at this kind of fundamentalism with more scrutiny and with a lot less 'fear of the Lord' based obedience.
You don't want to join them, fine.
Your loss.
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Ham
Everything was "perfect" once.
The whole "trick" is to put it all back in the box..
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Bolshevik
Yeah. And who gives a crap about context? not you, no sir. :)
religion comes from people garth. First they murder. Then they come up with the excuse. Yes?
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GarthP2000
You had me going there for a bit. Hell's bells, I thought that you signed on to Bride's Crazy Wagon!
Damn, you're good!
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Bolshevik
I wasn't intending on being facetious or riding anyone's wagon.
You're argument didn't make sense to me, and raised some questions. Probably another thread for another time.
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cman
I see a misunderstanding of death, dead and dieing.
That which is most prominent in the bible,
seems to be the most feared.
Ye shall surely die.
I think that's the idea for the eyes to open.
Cause in that day they shall see.
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