For me, the crux of the issue is that Wierwille picked up on this scripture and twisted it around to suit his own purpose, putting us into subjection to the organization. He used it to intimidate us.
If the writers of the scriptures had only managed to handle "truth" at TWI leadership levels or virtually any corporation I would probably forced to conceed to your points.
But when it comes to death and dying it doesn't really change anything to talk badly about God. In our flesh, we will all die. I believe when it comes to God's judgments it is usually like that. He is big, we be small.
Dear Waysider,
So TWI tried to intimidate with this scriptural record just as my splinter group did?
This doesn't surprise me any more. For me it is also at the crux of my grievances with them as it pertains to many forms of institutionalised abuse.
Perhaps what I am refering to is certain interpretations of this scripture passage. Not all Christians just accept it as great and good, as seen right here on this forum.
You can call it good and just--death for lie--. I can have a different view point, as do others. So don't brand me with the 'insulting my god' business. It is a discussion, there will be different view points.
Stuff like this makes me thankful I no longer have to swallow it and say something like-- 'oh, yes, it really is a great thing even though we can't really understand it.' --Or else my whole doctrine falls apart, too stay within the fold.
Sometimes the way Christians portray their faith and their god makes ME feel insulted FOR their God. Sheesh, so sorry Christian God. I suspect You don't mean what THEY are saying.
And especially I feel embarrassed for the Christian god when the true believers are self righteous and scolding, while still portraying their god so unfavorably. It affects by stomach, truly it does.
I'm heading away from the ugliness that is Doctrinal. I need something refreshing.
Perhaps what I am refering to is certain interpretations of this scripture passage. Not all Christians just accept it as great and good, as seen right here on this forum.
You can call it good and just--death for lie--. I can have a different view point, as do others. So don't brand me with the 'insulting my god' business. It is a discussion, there will be different view points.
Stuff like this makes me thankful I no longer have to swallow it and say something like-- 'oh, yes, it really is a great thing even though we can't really understand it.' --Or else my whole doctrine falls apart, too stay within the fold.
Dear Bramble,
I really had no intention of branding you with anything at all. That just isn't something that I ever want to do.
I really was just talking and thinking of times when I said something bad about God because I didn't get it.
Once in prayer concerning my splinter group leader when I had been believing that God had sent him to help me I told God that I couldn't help but consider the God that would send this leader to be stupid. I feel mercy because I wasn't struck down when I called God stupid while praying.
I think now that God was not guiding Barnard. And I hope that God forgives me.
And about your next post after this one I've quoted, I'm really sorry you feel that way. I hope that the refreshing you seek to find really works for you.
Well said Bramble.
We do not have to take whatever the bible says,
or whatever someone else says it says.
As the canon of what is called the bible was put together by men.
Translated by men over the years.
There is one who can cut through the crap.
Even then there are many different views.
That's what some do not see.
It's been drilled into us that there is one meaning.
That's not the truth at all.
A & S is murder, plain and simple on the surface.
If it is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Then the Holy Spirit murdered A & S.
On the surface.
And this "judgement" thing don't make sense.
That God or the Holy Spirit executed judgment in this section.
Immediately, without Jesus Christ the mediator.
And the blatant contradictions of this record and the rest of the scriptures is plain to see. If looked at.
Dear cman,
I don't agree with you but I will consider what you said.
In the meant time I have no desire that any of us is struck down or anything like that.
Hhmmmmm, .... why does an answer like this smell of ..... a 'whitewash'? ... A dodge? ... A kind of 'song-and-dance'? <_<
Whatever killed Ananias and Sapphira (if the story does indeed ring true), if it was simply because they 'told a lie', the concept of 'does the punishment fit the crime' needs to be seriously considered here. And if it _was_ a righteous judgment given by the 'Holy Spirit' that Ananias and Sapphira had to die because they lied, ... well then, ...
..... how many lies have _YOU_ told (of at least their magnitude) that ought to merit the same kind of punishment, .....
..... hhmmmmm?
No Dodge, whitewash or tapdancing, GP2000... (sounds like R2D2 )
What do the Scriptures say about the HS? He doesn't speak what He wants to speak but only speaks what He hears, therefore, the Holy Father uttered His judgment and yeah....POOF... :blink: Same with Uzzah and Nadab and Abihu.
And yeah, you're right...same thing COULD INDEED happen to us as well. It makes one very thankful for the GRACE that happens more than we are aware of I'm sure. As I said before, I believe this set the stage for the continuity between the OT/NT, that indeed it was the SAME GOD.
As the canon of what is called the bible was put together by men.
Translated by men over the years.
There is one who can cut through the crap.
Even then there are many different views.
That's what some do not see.
It's been drilled into us that there is one meaning.
That's not the truth at all.
A & S is murder, plain and simple on the surface.
If it is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Then the Holy Spirit murdered A & S.
On the surface.
And this "judgement" thing don't make sense.
That God or the Holy Spirit executed judgment in this section.
Immediately, without Jesus Christ the mediator.
And the blatant contradictions of this record and the rest of the scriptures is plain to see. If looked at.
Who says that the Lord Jesus didn't mediate? But the Lord Jesus said himself that He was subject to the Father. Or this was allowed for the glory of God. Before those that do not adhere to Christian beliefs get any sicker, God doesn't reckon glory as mankind reckons it. Stephen died with the Lord Jesus Christ looking on, same as with the martyrs of today in the Middle Eastern countries, they die willingly for their faith and consider the bullet scars on their bodies to be medals for Jesus.
Well, there was a back-story that was not entered into the Word.
Rare text:
See, Anaias used to take children from the church and “bless” them in a 4-horse coach. He actually, stole his business from the poor guy in the village who had all the great ideas and did all the research. He then belittled his wife in public, and in private, convinced young girls that they would have a special place in heaven if they would take off their pants and play diddle.
Then, of course, Saphira had a thing going on with a gal named Fayne. Fayne was a noted lesbian who secretly worked as a hit woman for the King. She got Safira involved, blackmailing her into it, or Fayne was going to tell Anaias. Saphira then “off’ed Fayne” using the poison of a viper. Then, stole the deed to the land. She and her husband, Anaias, decided to ditch the land as the feds were on to them. So, they sold it, kept some of the cash, but announced before everyone how they were tithing the whole pile of it.
The original story was deleted, as during the time of King Constantine, lesbian hit-women fell out of favor.
The point is, I bet there is more to the story that we do not know--
and your reply to my post does not even pertain to what acts 5 says
unless you explain further
a & s martyrs?
No, A&S wouldn't be considered martyrs. The continuity betw both O/NT would be that the Lord God is a Holy God and when one approaches, it needs to be in reverance even in today's grace. I'm sure we're spared many times because of our ignorance.
Has anyone ever considered that this section of Acts may have been added by men for the same reason it was used in TWI?
CONTROL!!
I doubt it very highly. Please remember that the Lord Himself had instructed His disciples not that long before that if they wanted to be great, they would have to be servants. I do not believe they would have so soon forgotten His teaching, besides with the HS guiding and instructing them. If you are submitted to the HS, disobedience doesn't come easy. Really!
Well, there was a back-story that was not entered into the Word.
Rare text:
See, Anaias used to take children from the church and “bless” them in a 4-horse coach. He actually, stole his business from the poor guy in the village who had all the great ideas and did all the research. He then belittled his wife in public, and in private, convinced young girls that they would have a special place in heaven if they would take off their pants and play diddle.
Then, of course, Saphira had a thing going on with a gal named Fayne. Fayne was a noted lesbian who secretly worked as a hit woman for the King. She got Safira involved, blackmailing her into it, or Fayne was going to tell Anaias. Saphira then “off’ed Fayne” using the poison of a viper. Then, stole the deed to the land. She and her husband, Anaias, decided to ditch the land as the feds were on to them. So, they sold it, kept some of the cash, but announced before everyone how they were tithing the whole pile of it.
The original story was deleted, as during the time of King Constantine, lesbian hit-women fell out of favor.
The point is, I bet there is more to the story that we do not know--
ROFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ya know....they covered that in Cemetary...I mean Seminary...I do believe it is to be found in the Qumran Collection, sub-basement level, forgotten papyrii section, written by old dudes who couldn't rise to the occasion any more.
Has anyone ever considered that this section of Acts may have been added by men for the same reason it was used in TWI?
CONTROL!!
I have been giving your question a little consideration Waysider. I do not have any good reason to doubt the text as it is written. I tent to agree with Bride's points. There are records of people being killed by God in the scriptures.
And I would add that the risen Lord and Savior holds the keys of Hell and death. (Rev 1:18) I believe that a lot of TWI people that look at His authority over life and death either cannot recieve it because of the milktoast doctrine that we learned in PFAL or they became puffed up leadership who felt that they had the right to wreck lives and cause much misery. I find the first part understandable and the last part offensive.
And as the Lord Jesus is also the High Priest forever and God has given him authority over life and death that it is impossible to separate God and Jesus Christ in how these events played out. Those two are one after all.
And the things that the record does not say about Ananias and Saphira; like who they really were in their hearts; lead me to consider it wise to not run to far wondering about things that are not plainly stated about them.
(edited for spelling)
p.s.
Dear Dot,
That last post was both funny and poignant. Thank you.
And the things that the record does not say about Ananias and Saphira; like who they really were in their hearts; lead me to consider it wise to not run to far wondering about things that are not plainly stated about them.
Jeff,
The reason I think they didn't really believe is because the account says. . . "A certain man and his wife" it doesn't say he was a believer. He was hanging out with them. . . . I could be wrong but. . . . .
The previous chapter finishes up by telling us how the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . Acts 4:31 "And when they prayed they were all filled with the Holy Spirit". . . .the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul. . . .
Acts 4 ends by naming Barnabas who sold his land and brought the money to the Apostles feet. . . It gives you the example of a true believer. . .
Acts 5 goes into "A certain man.. . "
The account does tell us what was in their hearts. . . that . . . With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
Didn't we just get done reading everyone else was filled with the Holy Spirit. . . not Satan?
Then Peter says. . .
Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.
Which clues us into what Ananias was filled with and about. I guess he wanted a church named after him? He wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit. He was a fake.
Most false teachers come from the church. . . where else are you going to find false believers?
People can intellectually assent to Christ. That does not mean they are true believers. Acts 8 says Simon the Sorcerer believed and then turned around and tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit.
People can assent with their minds. . . they can even agree with you. . . but, we are to believe with our hearts.
I have been giving your question a little consideration Waysider. I do not have any good reason to doubt the text as it is written. I tent to agree with Bride's points. There are records of people being killed by God in the scriptures.
And I would add that the risen Lord and Savior holds the keys of Hell and death. (Rev 1:18) I believe that a lot of TWI people that look at His authority over life and death either cannot recieve it because of the milktoast doctrine that we learned in PFAL or they became puffed up leadership who felt that they had the right to wreck lives and cause much misery. I find the first part understandable and the last part offensive.
And as the Lord Jesus is also the High Priest forever and God has given him authority over life and death that it is impossible to separate God and Jesus Christ in how these events played out. Those two are one after all.
And the things that the record does not say about Ananias and Saphira; like who they really were in their hearts; lead me to consider it wise to not run to far wondering about things that are not plainly stated about them.
Milktoast doctrine indeed! Barely any truth, if you ask me. Plus, puffed up leadership who do nothing but cause wreckage and misery in people's lives, is not limited to TWI.
The reason I think they didn't really believe is because the account says. . . "A certain man and his wife" it doesn't say he was a believer. He was hanging out with them. . . . I could be wrong but. . . . .
The previous chapter finishes up by telling us how the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . Acts 4:31 "And when they prayed they were all filled with the Holy Spirit". . . .the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul. . . .
Acts 4 ends by naming Barnabas who sold his land and brought the money to the Apostles feet. . . It gives you the example of a true believer. . .
Acts 5 goes into "A certain man.. . "
The account does tell us what was in their hearts. . . that . . . With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
Didn't we just get done reading everyone else was filled with the Holy Spirit. . . not Satan?
Then Peter says. . .
Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.
,
Which clues us into what Ananias was filled with and about. I guess he wanted a church named after him? He wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit. He was a fake.
Most false teachers come from the church. . . where else are you going to find false believers?
People can intellectually assent to Christ. That does not mean they are true believers. Acts 8 says Simon the Sorcerer believed and then turned around and tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit.
People can assent with their minds. . . they can even agree with you. . . but, we are to believe with our hearts.
That is a very interesting observation that you have just made. But keep in mind, it also singles out Barnabus and doesn't specifically say that he was a "believer". Since there weren't any chapter divisions in the original uncials, just keep reading right after the report of Barnabus. 5:1 starts with a "conjunction" which ties it to the previous record, so it doesn't start an entirely new thought as if Annanias/Sapphira are unbelievers hanging around with the believers, but just IMO continues and then because the author used "but" it puts it in contrast to those believers who were selling their EXTRAS and laying down the ENTIRE amounts, now contrast A&S's attitude of wanting to "look" like the others and so they sold an ONLY land/house. They must then have had their second doubts about giving the whole amount, which would most likely have left them in poverty, so because they FEARED, they then LIED about the amount they sold their property for and so withheld part of it, but then said they had laid down the entire amount.
This is why Peter said that it was THEIRS and even after they SOLD IT, they could have chosen to keep the entire amount. I personally conclude that even if they had HONESTLY said that their property was worth 100k, but we are blessed to give 25k, they would have been blessed by the HS and not slain by Him.
I've enjoyed reading your input on this topic and today I've been considering the point that Geisha brought up about satan being in Ananias' heart from the text and it really got me thinking about how this situation might have been like for Peter.
#1 Peter was there when the other person that I'm aware of that it was spoken of that satan entered his heart, Judas Iscariot. And Judas betrayed the Lord to the authorities.
#2 The Lord said to Peter's face, "Get thee behind me satan" when Peter was insisting that the Lord not go through with the crucifixion.
All in all it seems to me that it was clearly available for Peter to understand these things a lot deeper than some who just run off at the mouth and misuse the harder things in the scriptures unto their own destruction. It doesn't seem to me that it makes much difference if the false teachers talk about "real devils" or "satan" in somebodie's heart. But coming from Peter this is the kind of thing that had hit Peter pretty hard before the record of Ananias and Saphira.
I think that Peter was by this time absolutely and completely thankful that the Lord Himself had told him that even though satan desired to sift him like wheat the Lord Himself would intercede on his behalf. And I bet that nobody on earth ended up understanding these things better than Peter himself.
Dear Cman,
Since these considerations seem like such a rich diet for me I'm not sure what it will take to get me seeing these things like you do. I think that it may well be that instead of focusing on the related texts and scriptural understanding that you are reacting to the religious abuse that you've seen and heard of.
But if you can clearly spell out the contradictions for me, I'm willing to hear you out.
That is a very interesting observation that you have just made. But keep in mind, it also singles out Barnabus and doesn't specifically say that he was a "believer". Since there weren't any chapter divisions in the original uncials, just keep reading right after the report of Barnabus. 5:1 starts with a "conjunction" which ties it to the previous record, so it doesn't start an entirely new thought as if Annanias/Sapphira are unbelievers hanging around with the believers, but just IMO continues and then because the author used "but" it puts it in contrast to those believers who were selling their EXTRAS and laying down the ENTIRE amounts, now contrast A&S's attitude of wanting to "look" like the others and so they sold an ONLY land/house. They must then have had their second doubts about giving the whole amount, which would most likely have left them in poverty, so because they FEARED, they then LIED about the amount they sold their property for and so withheld part of it, but then said they had laid down the entire amount.
This is why Peter said that it was THEIRS and even after they SOLD IT, they could have chosen to keep the entire amount. I personally conclude that even if they had HONESTLY said that their property was worth 100k, but we are blessed to give 25k, they would have been blessed by the HS and not slain by Him.
Hi Bride :)
Yes, I really agree with you that had they not lied to the HS they would have been fine. I also agree that some Christians can be worldly and new to the faith.
God certainly is merciful to us when this is the case, and He does work in us to strip that worldliness from us. If we belong to Him. To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— I guess I see it differently, but not entirely. These chapters are really building up to the persecution of the church while it is expanding. There are two forms of distress illustrated for us. . . persecution from without and trouble from within.
What I see is Barnabas, who later travels with Paul, is he was changed from the inside outward. This is reflected in his act of wholehearted giving. Barnabas knew that the Holy Spirit was alive and real. They had just witnessed pentecost. Barnabas' integrity became well known in the early church. He was the one who won John Mark back to Paul. So we do know that from this very first act, Barnabas was a true believer.
A&S were examples of those who were trying to look the same, but the change was not genuine. Hypocrisy. They concieved this plan and it doesn't say it was out of fear. In fact, Peter said Satan filled their heart.
Think about the scriptures concerning those in the church who are false teachers. They love the praise of men more than the praise of God, external religious approval. There are reasons A & S might do this thing. They might not have even believed in the real presence of the Spirit of the living God. They could have believed in a intellectual way, but didn't understand he knew the thoughts of their mind. They may not have realized that He is a person who knows, feels, and acts on things. They may have counted on a "Grace" where God tolerates everything no matter how bad.
I think the reason it was recorded was so we would have the example of both kinds of people in the church. It is interesting to note that God tolerated and used the pressure from the outside to cause the church to grow, but did not tolerate it from the inside. Two reactions to the church from this. . . more true believers were added to the church and the rest dared not join themselves to the church.
Acts 5:32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
A&S actually stand for the exact opposite. . . people who have not really been changed in their hearts, but still want a place in the church. It isn't real to them.. . . it is external.
Well this lying to the hs crap sounds so similar to what they did to us.
Do this for God, Do that...but when you volunteered, they didn`t tell you it was an oath or vow...that to break it meant to lie to God....You must honor that vow or face the consequences A&S did.
It is a load of horse dang either way as far as I am concerned. For God`s sake, we were forced to murder our unborn children with this passage... You were left no other option...murder your child or lie to God and die anyway.
I never considered that the scriptural passage might be simply something to promote someone elses agenda...but I have to agree...Love God and Love your neighbor...that`s what Jesus said...
You got wierwille drugging and raping our sisters, martindale driving people to their deaths....and yet they stood healthy and whole...while someone fibbing about how much they got for their land is struckl dead???
Do you not think wierwille`s teachings claiming that God required these things of us is not an even MORE reprehensible lie to God?
It is bull....the evil that is allowed to happen in this world unfettered ...the monsters that harm the innocent...are never interfered with.
I think the passage was just used to ensnare and enslave.
Well this lying to the hs crap sounds so similar to what they did to us.
Do this for God, Do that...but when you volunteered, they didn`t tell you it was an oath or vow...that to break it meant to lie to God....You must honor that vow or face the consequences A&S did.
It is a load of horse dang either way as far as I am concerned. For God`s sake, we were forced to murder our unborn children with this passage... You were left no other option...murder your child or lie to God and die anyway.
I never considered that the scriptural passage might be simply something to promote someone elses agenda...but I have to agree...Love God and Love your neighbor...that`s what Jesus said...
You got wierwille drugging and raping our sisters, martindale driving people to their deaths....and yet they stood healthy and whole...while someone fibbing about how much they got for their land is struckl dead???
Do you not think wierwille`s teachings claiming that God required these things of us is not an even MORE reprehensible lie to God?
It is bull....the evil that is allowed to happen in this world unfettered ...the monsters that harm the innocent...are never interfered with.
I think the passage was just used to ensnare and enslave.
Dear Rascal,
I couldn't agree with you enough in that this scripture was used to abuse people. I am so sorry for how it was used to manipulate you too. I wasn't sure of that till I just read your last post. The reason that I started this thread is because I was in a situation where I was forced to find out how to look at this scripture without allowing myself to be forced into more mindless following of an abusive minister. (so-called anyway) I guess I didn't understand how deeply this scripture might run in folks or how strongly they might feel.
I think about how there was so many other scriptures that were written about 2000 years ago that spoke of decievers and false prophets coming. And many seem to have been fortold by the Lord Himself as he let us know what he would do to abusers when it is His turn to judge. All I seem to be able to say to you is that I hope it is a comfort to you that he will be an avenger someday.
And what can I say to you except to be willing to offer support. I remember a day after you opened your thread about your oldest son when you "shouted" on your way off this site that you are "a blessed woman." That still makes me smile. :)
Where is any warning of death for lying to the Holy Spirit?
Did Jesus say to collect money in this manner?
I don't think I have to look up the scriptures for you.
Love is the commandment.
Plenty of verses on how to handle what is given to you,
and to be thankful.
And, NO, I'm not projecting my own experiences into this.
But just look at it for God's sake.
It's about money.
I'm going to think about it Cman, but it is a challenging topic.
In my splinter throup they were trying to use this scripture to get me to give over more financially to them and I rejected that application without denying the events that are recorded in Acts about Ananias and Saphira.
First off, If as the scripture's record that Ananias and Saphira were struck down for their actions the things that were going on between the Lord and Peter's spirit were not plainly stated. And that is not even mentioning the possibilities of what and how things may have passed between the Father and Our faithful high priest.
So for me right now there are many, many things that this record does not spell out. But if their actions might have been the planting of a corrupt seed of satan that would have led to much destruction in the church then in this instance it might have been for the better that they were struck down.
After hearing from Rascal about her heart for TWI victims and the victimizers too.....well...... you've both given me a lot to think about.
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waysider
For me, the crux of the issue is that Wierwille picked up on this scripture and twisted it around to suit his own purpose, putting us into subjection to the organization. He used it to intimidate us.
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JeffSjo
Dear Bramble,
If the writers of the scriptures had only managed to handle "truth" at TWI leadership levels or virtually any corporation I would probably forced to conceed to your points.
But when it comes to death and dying it doesn't really change anything to talk badly about God. In our flesh, we will all die. I believe when it comes to God's judgments it is usually like that. He is big, we be small.
Dear Waysider,
So TWI tried to intimidate with this scriptural record just as my splinter group did?
This doesn't surprise me any more. For me it is also at the crux of my grievances with them as it pertains to many forms of institutionalised abuse.
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Bramble
Am I talking badly about God?
Perhaps what I am refering to is certain interpretations of this scripture passage. Not all Christians just accept it as great and good, as seen right here on this forum.
You can call it good and just--death for lie--. I can have a different view point, as do others. So don't brand me with the 'insulting my god' business. It is a discussion, there will be different view points.
Stuff like this makes me thankful I no longer have to swallow it and say something like-- 'oh, yes, it really is a great thing even though we can't really understand it.' --Or else my whole doctrine falls apart, too stay within the fold.
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cman
Well said Bramble.
We do not have to take whatever the bible says,
or whatever someone else says it says.
As the canon of what is called the bible was put together by men.
Translated by men over the years.
There is one who can cut through the crap.
Even then there are many different views.
That's what some do not see.
It's been drilled into us that there is one meaning.
That's not the truth at all.
A & S is murder, plain and simple on the surface.
If it is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Then the Holy Spirit murdered A & S.
On the surface.
And this "judgement" thing don't make sense.
That God or the Holy Spirit executed judgment in this section.
Immediately, without Jesus Christ the mediator.
And the blatant contradictions of this record and the rest of the scriptures is plain to see. If looked at.
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Bramble
Sometimes the way Christians portray their faith and their god makes ME feel insulted FOR their God. Sheesh, so sorry Christian God. I suspect You don't mean what THEY are saying.
And especially I feel embarrassed for the Christian god when the true believers are self righteous and scolding, while still portraying their god so unfavorably. It affects by stomach, truly it does.
I'm heading away from the ugliness that is Doctrinal. I need something refreshing.
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JeffSjo
Dear Bramble,
I really had no intention of branding you with anything at all. That just isn't something that I ever want to do.
I really was just talking and thinking of times when I said something bad about God because I didn't get it.
Once in prayer concerning my splinter group leader when I had been believing that God had sent him to help me I told God that I couldn't help but consider the God that would send this leader to be stupid. I feel mercy because I wasn't struck down when I called God stupid while praying.
I think now that God was not guiding Barnard. And I hope that God forgives me.
And about your next post after this one I've quoted, I'm really sorry you feel that way. I hope that the refreshing you seek to find really works for you.
Dear cman,
I don't agree with you but I will consider what you said.
In the meant time I have no desire that any of us is struck down or anything like that.
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brideofjc
No Dodge, whitewash or tapdancing, GP2000... (sounds like R2D2
)
What do the Scriptures say about the HS? He doesn't speak what He wants to speak but only speaks what He hears, therefore, the Holy Father uttered His judgment and yeah....POOF... :blink: Same with Uzzah and Nadab and Abihu.
And yeah, you're right...same thing COULD INDEED happen to us as well. It makes one very thankful for the GRACE that happens more than we are aware of I'm sure. As I said before, I believe this set the stage for the continuity between the OT/NT, that indeed it was the SAME GOD.
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brideofjc
Who says that the Lord Jesus didn't mediate? But the Lord Jesus said himself that He was subject to the Father. Or this was allowed for the glory of God. Before those that do not adhere to Christian beliefs get any sicker, God doesn't reckon glory as mankind reckons it. Stephen died with the Lord Jesus Christ looking on, same as with the martyrs of today in the Middle Eastern countries, they die willingly for their faith and consider the bullet scars on their bodies to be medals for Jesus.
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cman
how would this apply here, bride?
and your reply to my post does not even pertain to what acts 5 says
unless you explain further
a & s martyrs?
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waysider
Has anyone ever considered that this section of Acts may have been added by men for the same reason it was used in TWI?
CONTROL!!
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Dot Matrix
Well, there was a back-story that was not entered into the Word.
Rare text:
See, Anaias used to take children from the church and “bless” them in a 4-horse coach. He actually, stole his business from the poor guy in the village who had all the great ideas and did all the research. He then belittled his wife in public, and in private, convinced young girls that they would have a special place in heaven if they would take off their pants and play diddle.
Then, of course, Saphira had a thing going on with a gal named Fayne. Fayne was a noted lesbian who secretly worked as a hit woman for the King. She got Safira involved, blackmailing her into it, or Fayne was going to tell Anaias. Saphira then “off’ed Fayne” using the poison of a viper. Then, stole the deed to the land. She and her husband, Anaias, decided to ditch the land as the feds were on to them. So, they sold it, kept some of the cash, but announced before everyone how they were tithing the whole pile of it.
The original story was deleted, as during the time of King Constantine, lesbian hit-women fell out of favor.
The point is, I bet there is more to the story that we do not know--
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brideofjc
No, A&S wouldn't be considered martyrs. The continuity betw both O/NT would be that the Lord God is a Holy God and when one approaches, it needs to be in reverance even in today's grace. I'm sure we're spared many times because of our ignorance.
I doubt it very highly. Please remember that the Lord Himself had instructed His disciples not that long before that if they wanted to be great, they would have to be servants. I do not believe they would have so soon forgotten His teaching, besides with the HS guiding and instructing them. If you are submitted to the HS, disobedience doesn't come easy. Really!
ROFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ya know....they covered that in Cemetary...I mean Seminary...I do believe it is to be found in the Qumran Collection, sub-basement level, forgotten papyrii section, written by old dudes who couldn't rise to the occasion any more.
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JeffSjo
I have been giving your question a little consideration Waysider. I do not have any good reason to doubt the text as it is written. I tent to agree with Bride's points. There are records of people being killed by God in the scriptures.
And I would add that the risen Lord and Savior holds the keys of Hell and death. (Rev 1:18) I believe that a lot of TWI people that look at His authority over life and death either cannot recieve it because of the milktoast doctrine that we learned in PFAL or they became puffed up leadership who felt that they had the right to wreck lives and cause much misery. I find the first part understandable and the last part offensive.
And as the Lord Jesus is also the High Priest forever and God has given him authority over life and death that it is impossible to separate God and Jesus Christ in how these events played out. Those two are one after all.
And the things that the record does not say about Ananias and Saphira; like who they really were in their hearts; lead me to consider it wise to not run to far wondering about things that are not plainly stated about them.
(edited for spelling)
p.s.
Dear Dot,
That last post was both funny and poignant. Thank you.
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Dot Matrix
:)
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geisha779
Jeff,
The reason I think they didn't really believe is because the account says. . . "A certain man and his wife" it doesn't say he was a believer. He was hanging out with them. . . . I could be wrong but. . . . .
The previous chapter finishes up by telling us how the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . Acts 4:31 "And when they prayed they were all filled with the Holy Spirit". . . .the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul. . . .
Acts 4 ends by naming Barnabas who sold his land and brought the money to the Apostles feet. . . It gives you the example of a true believer. . .
Acts 5 goes into "A certain man.. . "
The account does tell us what was in their hearts. . . that . . . With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
Didn't we just get done reading everyone else was filled with the Holy Spirit. . . not Satan?
Then Peter says. . .
Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.
Which clues us into what Ananias was filled with and about. I guess he wanted a church named after him? He wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit. He was a fake.
Most false teachers come from the church. . . where else are you going to find false believers?
People can intellectually assent to Christ. That does not mean they are true believers. Acts 8 says Simon the Sorcerer believed and then turned around and tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit.
People can assent with their minds. . . they can even agree with you. . . but, we are to believe with our hearts.
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brideofjc
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cman
Seems to me a & s were certainly mark and avoid!
Promoting fear in others.
I do not believe that is the way to function.
It certainly is not stated that way anywhere else.
Looks like an intentional manipulation of readers.
People gave to Paul and Peter and others in the rest of the scriptures.
But nothing like this big sell your stuff and give what you want in mass.
Sounds like passing the collection plate or horn or something.
Lay all that money at the apostles feet?
Something about feet rings a bell.
Why were Peter and the rest hanging around collecting?
Is that what theyt were instructed to do by Jesus?
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brideofjc
That is a very interesting observation that you have just made. But keep in mind, it also singles out Barnabus and doesn't specifically say that he was a "believer". Since there weren't any chapter divisions in the original uncials, just keep reading right after the report of Barnabus. 5:1 starts with a "conjunction" which ties it to the previous record, so it doesn't start an entirely new thought as if Annanias/Sapphira are unbelievers hanging around with the believers, but just IMO continues and then because the author used "but" it puts it in contrast to those believers who were selling their EXTRAS and laying down the ENTIRE amounts, now contrast A&S's attitude of wanting to "look" like the others and so they sold an ONLY land/house. They must then have had their second doubts about giving the whole amount, which would most likely have left them in poverty, so because they FEARED, they then LIED about the amount they sold their property for and so withheld part of it, but then said they had laid down the entire amount.
This is why Peter said that it was THEIRS and even after they SOLD IT, they could have chosen to keep the entire amount. I personally conclude that even if they had HONESTLY said that their property was worth 100k, but we are blessed to give 25k, they would have been blessed by the HS and not slain by Him.
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JeffSjo
Dear Bride and Geisha,
I've enjoyed reading your input on this topic and today I've been considering the point that Geisha brought up about satan being in Ananias' heart from the text and it really got me thinking about how this situation might have been like for Peter.
#1 Peter was there when the other person that I'm aware of that it was spoken of that satan entered his heart, Judas Iscariot. And Judas betrayed the Lord to the authorities.
#2 The Lord said to Peter's face, "Get thee behind me satan" when Peter was insisting that the Lord not go through with the crucifixion.
All in all it seems to me that it was clearly available for Peter to understand these things a lot deeper than some who just run off at the mouth and misuse the harder things in the scriptures unto their own destruction. It doesn't seem to me that it makes much difference if the false teachers talk about "real devils" or "satan" in somebodie's heart. But coming from Peter this is the kind of thing that had hit Peter pretty hard before the record of Ananias and Saphira.
I think that Peter was by this time absolutely and completely thankful that the Lord Himself had told him that even though satan desired to sift him like wheat the Lord Himself would intercede on his behalf. And I bet that nobody on earth ended up understanding these things better than Peter himself.
Dear Cman,
Since these considerations seem like such a rich diet for me I'm not sure what it will take to get me seeing these things like you do. I think that it may well be that instead of focusing on the related texts and scriptural understanding that you are reacting to the religious abuse that you've seen and heard of.
But if you can clearly spell out the contradictions for me, I'm willing to hear you out.
PEACE.
(edited for spelling)
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geisha779
Hi Bride :)
Yes, I really agree with you that had they not lied to the HS they would have been fine. I also agree that some Christians can be worldly and new to the faith.
God certainly is merciful to us when this is the case, and He does work in us to strip that worldliness from us. If we belong to Him. To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— I guess I see it differently, but not entirely. These chapters are really building up to the persecution of the church while it is expanding. There are two forms of distress illustrated for us. . . persecution from without and trouble from within.
What I see is Barnabas, who later travels with Paul, is he was changed from the inside outward. This is reflected in his act of wholehearted giving. Barnabas knew that the Holy Spirit was alive and real. They had just witnessed pentecost. Barnabas' integrity became well known in the early church. He was the one who won John Mark back to Paul. So we do know that from this very first act, Barnabas was a true believer.
A&S were examples of those who were trying to look the same, but the change was not genuine. Hypocrisy. They concieved this plan and it doesn't say it was out of fear. In fact, Peter said Satan filled their heart.
Think about the scriptures concerning those in the church who are false teachers. They love the praise of men more than the praise of God, external religious approval. There are reasons A & S might do this thing. They might not have even believed in the real presence of the Spirit of the living God. They could have believed in a intellectual way, but didn't understand he knew the thoughts of their mind. They may not have realized that He is a person who knows, feels, and acts on things. They may have counted on a "Grace" where God tolerates everything no matter how bad.
I think the reason it was recorded was so we would have the example of both kinds of people in the church. It is interesting to note that God tolerated and used the pressure from the outside to cause the church to grow, but did not tolerate it from the inside. Two reactions to the church from this. . . more true believers were added to the church and the rest dared not join themselves to the church.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
A&S actually stand for the exact opposite. . . people who have not really been changed in their hearts, but still want a place in the church. It isn't real to them.. . . it is external.
Anyway, that is what I see. :)
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cman
Jeff, where is the love? the fruit of the spirit?
Where is any warning of death for lying to the Holy Spirit?
Did Jesus say to collect money in this manner?
I don't think I have to look up the scriptures for you.
Love is the commandment.
Plenty of verses on how to handle what is given to you,
and to be thankful.
And, NO, I'm not projecting my own experiences into this.
But just look at it for God's sake.
It's about money.
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rascal
Well this lying to the hs crap sounds so similar to what they did to us.
Do this for God, Do that...but when you volunteered, they didn`t tell you it was an oath or vow...that to break it meant to lie to God....You must honor that vow or face the consequences A&S did.
It is a load of horse dang either way as far as I am concerned. For God`s sake, we were forced to murder our unborn children with this passage... You were left no other option...murder your child or lie to God and die anyway.
I never considered that the scriptural passage might be simply something to promote someone elses agenda...but I have to agree...Love God and Love your neighbor...that`s what Jesus said...
You got wierwille drugging and raping our sisters, martindale driving people to their deaths....and yet they stood healthy and whole...while someone fibbing about how much they got for their land is struckl dead???
Do you not think wierwille`s teachings claiming that God required these things of us is not an even MORE reprehensible lie to God?
It is bull....the evil that is allowed to happen in this world unfettered ...the monsters that harm the innocent...are never interfered with.
I think the passage was just used to ensnare and enslave.
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
I couldn't agree with you enough in that this scripture was used to abuse people. I am so sorry for how it was used to manipulate you too. I wasn't sure of that till I just read your last post. The reason that I started this thread is because I was in a situation where I was forced to find out how to look at this scripture without allowing myself to be forced into more mindless following of an abusive minister. (so-called anyway) I guess I didn't understand how deeply this scripture might run in folks or how strongly they might feel.
I think about how there was so many other scriptures that were written about 2000 years ago that spoke of decievers and false prophets coming. And many seem to have been fortold by the Lord Himself as he let us know what he would do to abusers when it is His turn to judge. All I seem to be able to say to you is that I hope it is a comfort to you that he will be an avenger someday.
And what can I say to you except to be willing to offer support. I remember a day after you opened your thread about your oldest son when you "shouted" on your way off this site that you are "a blessed woman." That still makes me smile. :)
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JeffSjo
I'm going to think about it Cman, but it is a challenging topic.
In my splinter throup they were trying to use this scripture to get me to give over more financially to them and I rejected that application without denying the events that are recorded in Acts about Ananias and Saphira.
First off, If as the scripture's record that Ananias and Saphira were struck down for their actions the things that were going on between the Lord and Peter's spirit were not plainly stated. And that is not even mentioning the possibilities of what and how things may have passed between the Father and Our faithful high priest.
So for me right now there are many, many things that this record does not spell out. But if their actions might have been the planting of a corrupt seed of satan that would have led to much destruction in the church then in this instance it might have been for the better that they were struck down.
After hearing from Rascal about her heart for TWI victims and the victimizers too.....well...... you've both given me a lot to think about.
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