In my former splinter group it is clear to me that they wanted to portray things like I was Ananias. And my wife was in the picture too.
Since I shared what I felt about the true application of this section and did not back down they never could spring whatever trap they were thinking of.
So these verses represent for me just one of many traps they tried to trip me up with before they gave up trying to trip me up and just moved my family away from me and kicked me out.
I have no doubt that if I had dropped dead about that time they would have likened me to Ananias. That would have been easy for them to do since the prospect for me calling them on it would be very low. ^_^
It never happened. Nonetheless there's something more to this fiction of "Ananias & Sapphirra" that we're not told.
What it was - I won't even begin to speculate. But people generally don't drop dead for seeking tax shelters.
Just as many of you have not turned into "Greasespots" by midnight.
I mean, if the "Holy Spirit" here wanted more money, why not pack his briefcase and run off to Wall Street?
The message seems clear here though - "fork over the dough" - in this case, to the figure of Peter.
This record is one that I think nearly all explanations for have to stretch juuuuuust a little to get to make any sense. I don't think all the information is there to completely understand it without filling in some blanks, and that's a crap shoot. But I'd agree to the extent that it may not have happened the way we're reading it, and that the reasons and background of what was going on isn't understood from what's written.
This record is one that I think nearly all explanations for have to stretch juuuuuust a little to get to make any sense. I don't think all the information is there to completely understand it without filling in some blanks, and that's a crap shoot. But I'd agree to the extent that it may not have happened the way we're reading it, and that the reasons and background of what was going on isn't understood from what's written.
Socks -
Well stated.
Though if this section in Acts didn't personally strike me as so absurd, I'de think it funny. Then again, maybe it actually was intended as a dark-humored parable of sorts.
For example, what of those unnamed "young men" loitering about in the wings, on call for when the bodies hit the floor -unceremoniously stepping in, carrying out, wrapping and burying them? ( one wonders how often their services were actually required). And all without the common courtesy of notifying a spouse or next-of-kin to the deceased? Very odd.
It's gonna be interesting to me when I get to heaven to find out what the Scriptures really said "in their original." I'm betting some of the folks who did the subsequent versions, like TWI, added or subtracted to promote their own agendas.
I just try to stick to what is glaringly obvious; love God, love your neighbor, and don't hurt anybody if you can help it.
Rascal, I think that's true in a lot of situations, especially one of my old favorites, women in the church. I just betcha Jesus did not intend for women to be dirt under men's feet or have their mouths stopped in the church or anything else like that. He was actually NICE to women! Imagine that!
Yup, everything he taught in hind sight seems to have a two fold meaning. The one that was presented to the world so as to appear a legitimate group...and the deeper darker meanings that gave wierwille complete and total control over our lives :(
Yup, everything he taught in hind sight seems to have a two fold meaning. The one that was presented to the world so as to appear a legitimate group...and the deeper darker meanings that gave wierwille complete and total control over our lives :(
God forgives us. He really does. When we see what really happened and we mourn our decisions. . . that is repentance. Real sorrow. We ask and are forgiven.
As bad as it was. . . for so many of us. . . God can heal our hearts and give us some peace.
As for those who used God's name to coerce these things. . . and it surely was manipulation. . . if they don't repent and change. . . have sorrow and mourn what they did. . . justified by using a wrong interpretation of His scripture to cause evil. . . God will repay them. .. . God is not deaf, dumb, and blind as some would have us believe.
Why. . . just look at Ananias and Sapphira! Their judgement was swift. Sometimes it is. . . . sometimes not.
This was at a time when the early church was being established. They did not truly believe the gospel preached. What do the next few verses say. . .
Great FEAR came over the church. . . but none of the rest dared associate with them. . . . but the people held them in high esteem. . . and all the more believers were added to the number. . . .
Kept out the ones who didn't really believe. Kinda like Jesus saying you better count the cost before hand.
Ananias and Sapphira were trying to promote their own righteousness, it was an outward appearance. . . not a true belief. . . They were gonna be the heros and the great righteous ones. . . look how great we are we have given our all. .. laid everything out. . .sound familar??
There ARE true and false believers. ..That is why. . . by their fruits you will know them. . . are they connected to the vine?. . . what grows in their lives?.
Seems to me, many of these leaders never really understood or believed God or counted the cost for their actions. If they did, they never would have done or said such evil things. Or if they were truly God's people, He would have corrected them. . . . one way or another. We would now see it.
They decide to remain in sin. . . we don't have to . . . a good example of loving darkness rather than light.
It is easy to assume that this couple didn't really believe. However, I think they did believe, they were just too worldly. If they had sold their only land (which I believe it was), sold it for 100K and were blessed to give 25K, they would still be alive, but they lied to the Holy Spirit.
The thing is...this teaching was well documented and thought out. Scripturally supported. So was submitting to abuse, following stupid orders by leaders, all of this stuff that they forced us to endure was backed up with scripture.
It is why I cannot stand scripture and bible today... you can make a bible verse support any damned thing you please. It is a good thing that God is caring enough to work within the parameters of what we can tolerate.
I feel like the that love of bible is another thing stolen from me.
God Bless you Rascal.
If the proper exegesis of the Scriptures is done, you truly cannot make the Bible say anything you please. But unfortunately, the requirement is an honest spirit before the Lord Christ.
It never happened. Nonetheless there's something more to this fiction of "Ananias & Sapphirra" that we're not told.
What it was - I won't even begin to speculate. But people generally don't drop dead for seeking tax shelters.
Just as many of you have not turned into "Greasespots" by midnight.ent
I mean, if the "Holy Spirit" here wanted more money, why not pack his briefcase and run off to Wall Street?
The message seems clear here though - "fork over the dough" - in this case, to the figure of Peter.
It is simply because they lied. It also set a precedent simply because also the Jews also sometimes thought that God could not SEE or HEAR what they were doing, thus is set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT.
It's gonna be interesting to me when I get to heaven to find out what the Scriptures really said "in their original." I'm betting some of the folks who did the subsequent versions, like TWI, added or subtracted to promote their own agendas.
I just try to stick to what is glaringly obvious; love God, love your neighbor, and don't hurt anybody if you can help it.
WG
Hi WG, not trying to be a sm**t**s or anything....LOL....weird mood right now... but here's the closest to the original that we have:
It is simply because they lied. It also set a precedent simply because also the Jews also sometimes thought that God could not SEE or HEAR what they were doing, thus is set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT.
It is simply because they lied. It also set a precedent simply because also the Jews also sometimes thought that God could not SEE or HEAR what they were doing, thus is set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT.
That one intent for the presence of this section might have been to "set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT" is on the money.
And it along with other factors led and still leads to the killing of the innocent. Devotion to a god developed by doctrines of men leading to wars, mass murders, genocide and more.
And. yeah, first shake 'em down for all their money, all their worth.
Then eliminate their voice. But that they cannot silence.
Hhmmmmm, .... why does an answer like this smell of ..... a 'whitewash'? ... A dodge? ... A kind of 'song-and-dance'? <_<
Whatever killed Ananias and Sapphira (if the story does indeed ring true), if it was simply because they 'told a lie', the concept of 'does the punishment fit the crime' needs to be seriously considered here. And if it _was_ a righteous judgment given by the 'Holy Spirit' that Ananias and Sapphira had to die because they lied, ... well then, ...
..... how many lies have _YOU_ told (of at least their magnitude) that ought to merit the same kind of punishment, .....
I am certain that my most painful experiences are with those who misread a section where God does some real heavy judging and decide that they are entitled to destroy lives for themselves.
It can be hard to wrap my head around the sections where God judges His people all by Himself.
But when people start executing judgment for God as they see fit it becomes real nasty fast.
But when God Himself does it, it seems like it could be very traumatic too.
So why does anyone think that a & s really happened?
Why does anyone think that anything in the bible happened?
In the way I was told to believe it's God's Word.
That don't mean it is.
I've learned a lot from scripture, and not just the kjv canon.
I've also learned a lot about what others say about how acts and other books developed. Believers were very divided, as well as the political motivations of many. These things influenced what we now have in the scriptures.
So I believe something bigger then man must help out here.
I believe that the scriptures tell a story about a certain set of people at a particular time in history. How much of it is true?? That is about as easy as figuring out how much of pfal is profitable..lol
I think God would be perfectly capable of inspiring and teaching us here in the 21 century in a way that makes the most sense to us within the parameters fo what we can understand and allow, rather than trying to apply a system of belief designed to accommodate the understanding of a particular group of people 3000+ years ago.
I think it is like raising kids, no one set of rules apply as to how best reach each kiddo and help them develope. What works for one will not necessarily work for another, what the teenager is capable of and understands is vastly different than the toddler.
Do I believe in 2 crucified or 4? Do I believe in the trinity or not? Are the dead alive now or not?? Was there a man who really lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days? Did Noah REALLY manage to get pairs of every animal on earth?? Who cares?? I mean How really does that affect our responsibility today?
Love God and Love your neighbor...anything past that is inconsequential imo.
So why does anyone think that a & s really happened?
Why does anyone think that anything in the bible happened?
In the way I was told to believe it's God's Word.
That don't mean it is.
I've learned a lot from scripture, and not just the kjv canon.
I've also learned a lot about what others say about how acts and other books developed. Believers were very divided, as well as the political motivations of many. These things influenced what we now have in the scriptures.
So I believe something bigger then man must help out here.
Although it is in man to do it.
I choose to believe it as it is written cman.
Choosing to believe the scriptures after all the damage that TWI did while giving lip service to that choice is no easy thing for me.
I enjoy a lot of what you've shared, but in terms of this record, well, it works for me even though it is a harsh record.
Wierwille's version of what God did and didn't do is indicative of a false prophet. It seems to me that he would speak out of one side of the mouth when talking about God's goodness as it was directed at him, the MOG; while choosing to behave in a perverse and destructive fashion.
It doesn't surprise me that ex-wayfers would have trouble with this record. But for me it helps to consider the truth that in our flesh alone we all die. This record just points to a specific instance of it happening unto Ananias and Saphira. And if I have received mercy in anything like this record then I am obliged by the scriptures and my conscience to give the mercy that I've received instead of perhaps being judged like these two were in this record.
And for those who imagine false reasonings for why somebody else might have dropped dead at one time or another, well if God wasn't behind it for the reasons that the prophet says then he/she is just another self-styled false prophet. In real life these things are not easy to deal with when we have flesh and blood people to deal with. But nailing false prophets when speaking strictly theoretically isn't even that easy sometimes.
Dear Rascal,
I'm with you 100% on the importance of loving God and loving my neighbor.
For me it is important to love God knowing that may be willing to judge for Himself at any time as he did in this record though.
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waysider
I'm confident they wanted us to think it could happen to us.
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JeffSjo
In my former splinter group it is clear to me that they wanted to portray things like I was Ananias. And my wife was in the picture too.
Since I shared what I felt about the true application of this section and did not back down they never could spring whatever trap they were thinking of.
So these verses represent for me just one of many traps they tried to trip me up with before they gave up trying to trip me up and just moved my family away from me and kicked me out.
I have no doubt that if I had dropped dead about that time they would have likened me to Ananias. That would have been easy for them to do since the prospect for me calling them on it would be very low. ^_^
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socks
This record is one that I think nearly all explanations for have to stretch juuuuuust a little to get to make any sense. I don't think all the information is there to completely understand it without filling in some blanks, and that's a crap shoot. But I'd agree to the extent that it may not have happened the way we're reading it, and that the reasons and background of what was going on isn't understood from what's written.
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TheInvisibleDan
Socks -
Well stated.
Though if this section in Acts didn't personally strike me as so absurd, I'de think it funny. Then again, maybe it actually was intended as a dark-humored parable of sorts.
For example, what of those unnamed "young men" loitering about in the wings, on call for when the bodies hit the floor -unceremoniously stepping in, carrying out, wrapping and burying them? ( one wonders how often their services were actually required). And all without the common courtesy of notifying a spouse or next-of-kin to the deceased? Very odd.
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Watered Garden
It's gonna be interesting to me when I get to heaven to find out what the Scriptures really said "in their original." I'm betting some of the folks who did the subsequent versions, like TWI, added or subtracted to promote their own agendas.
I just try to stick to what is glaringly obvious; love God, love your neighbor, and don't hurt anybody if you can help it.
WG
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rascal
THAT I believe is the key WG!
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Watered Garden
Rascal, I think that's true in a lot of situations, especially one of my old favorites, women in the church. I just betcha Jesus did not intend for women to be dirt under men's feet or have their mouths stopped in the church or anything else like that. He was actually NICE to women! Imagine that!
WG
A tad bit
but you get the picture!
WG
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waysider
I really think VPW just saw this scripture as another tool in his mind control toolbox.
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rascal
Yup, everything he taught in hind sight seems to have a two fold meaning. The one that was presented to the world so as to appear a legitimate group...and the deeper darker meanings that gave wierwille complete and total control over our lives :(
Yup, everything he taught in hind sight seems to have a two fold meaning. The one that was presented to the world so as to appear a legitimate group...and the deeper darker meanings that gave wierwille complete and total control over our lives :(
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brideofjc
It is easy to assume that this couple didn't really believe. However, I think they did believe, they were just too worldly. If they had sold their only land (which I believe it was), sold it for 100K and were blessed to give 25K, they would still be alive, but they lied to the Holy Spirit.
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brideofjc
God Bless you Rascal.
If the proper exegesis of the Scriptures is done, you truly cannot make the Bible say anything you please. But unfortunately, the requirement is an honest spirit before the Lord Christ.
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brideofjc
It is simply because they lied. It also set a precedent simply because also the Jews also sometimes thought that God could not SEE or HEAR what they were doing, thus is set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT.
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brideofjc
Hi WG, not trying to be a sm**t**s or anything....LOL....weird mood right now... but here's the closest to the original that we have:
Acts
5 ἀνὴρ δέ τις Ἁνανίας ὀνόματι σὺν Σαπφίρῃ τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπώλησεν κτῆμα 2 καὶ ἐνοσφίσατο ἀπὸ τῆς τιμῆς συνειδυίης καὶ τῆς γυναικός καὶ ἐνέγκας μέρος τι παρὰ τοὺς πόδας τῶν ἀποστόλων ἔθηκεν 3 εἶπεν δὲ ὁ Πέτρος Ἁνανία διὰ τί ἐπλήρωσεν ὁ Σατανᾶς τὴν καρδίαν σου ψεύσασθαί σε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον καὶ νοσφίσασθαι ἀπὸ τῆς τιμῆς τοῦ χωρίου 4 οὐχὶ μένον σοὶ ἔμενεν καὶ πραθὲν ἐν τῇ σῇ ἐξουσίᾳ ὑπῆρχεν τί ὅτι ἔθου ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου τὸ πρᾶγμα τοῦτο οὐκ ἐψεύσω ἀνθρώποις ἀλλὰ τῷ θεῷ 5 ἀκούων δὲ ὁ Ἁνανίας τοὺς λόγους τούτους πεσὼν ἐξέψυξεν καὶ ἐγένετο φόβος μέγας ἐπὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντας 6 ἀναστάντες δὲ οἱ νεώτεροι συνέστειλαν αὐτὸν καὶ ἐξενέγκαντες ἔθαψαν 7 ἐγένετο δὲ ὡς ὡρῶν τριῶν διάστημα καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ μὴ εἰδυῖα τὸ γεγονὸς εἰσῆλθεν 8 ἀπεκρίθη δὲ πρὸς αὐτὴν Πέτρος εἰπέ μοι εἰ τοσούτου τὸ χωρίον ἀπέδοσθε ἡ δὲ εἶπεν ναί τοσούτου 9 ὁ δὲ Πέτρος πρὸς αὐτήν τί ὅτι συνεφωνήθη ὑμῖν πειράσαι τὸ πνεῦμα κυρίου ἰδοὺ οἱ πόδες τῶν θαψάντων τὸν ἄνδρα σου ἐπὶ τῇ θύρᾳ καὶ ἐξοίσουσίν σε 10 ἔπεσεν δὲ παραχρῆμα πρὸς τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐξέψυξεν εἰσελθόντες δὲ οἱ νεανίσκοι εὗρον αὐτὴν νεκράν καὶ ἐξενέγκαντες ἔθαψαν πρὸς τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς
11 καὶ ἐγένετο φόβος μέγας ἐφ' ὅλην τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ ἐπὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντας ταῦτα
Blessings
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cman
So murder is the way?
I don't think so.
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TheInvisibleDan
That one intent for the presence of this section might have been to "set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT" is on the money.
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cman
And it along with other factors led and still leads to the killing of the innocent. Devotion to a god developed by doctrines of men leading to wars, mass murders, genocide and more.
And. yeah, first shake 'em down for all their money, all their worth.
Then eliminate their voice. But that they cannot silence.
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brideofjc
Who said that the HS does murder? Not I!
The HS simply passed judgment, which is why great fear fell upon those who either saw or later heard what had happened.
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cman
yeah, great fear
such a god as this
the holy spirit passing judgment?
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GarthP2000
Hhmmmmm, .... why does an answer like this smell of ..... a 'whitewash'? ... A dodge? ... A kind of 'song-and-dance'? <_<
Whatever killed Ananias and Sapphira (if the story does indeed ring true), if it was simply because they 'told a lie', the concept of 'does the punishment fit the crime' needs to be seriously considered here. And if it _was_ a righteous judgment given by the 'Holy Spirit' that Ananias and Sapphira had to die because they lied, ... well then, ...
..... how many lies have _YOU_ told (of at least their magnitude) that ought to merit the same kind of punishment, .....
..... hhmmmmm?
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JeffSjo
I am certain that my most painful experiences are with those who misread a section where God does some real heavy judging and decide that they are entitled to destroy lives for themselves.
It can be hard to wrap my head around the sections where God judges His people all by Himself.
But when people start executing judgment for God as they see fit it becomes real nasty fast.
But when God Himself does it, it seems like it could be very traumatic too.
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JeffSjo
Everybody that has ever lived has died.
This too is part of God's judgment.
In our flesh alone, we all die.
It's just a question of working out the specifics.
I don't believe there is any cure to this malady of death without the Lord Jesus Christ.
(added in editing)
I do not mind at all if this post happens to provoke further discussion. :)
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cman
So why does anyone think that a & s really happened?
Why does anyone think that anything in the bible happened?
In the way I was told to believe it's God's Word.
That don't mean it is.
I've learned a lot from scripture, and not just the kjv canon.
I've also learned a lot about what others say about how acts and other books developed. Believers were very divided, as well as the political motivations of many. These things influenced what we now have in the scriptures.
So I believe something bigger then man must help out here.
Although it is in man to do it.
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rascal
I believe that the scriptures tell a story about a certain set of people at a particular time in history. How much of it is true?? That is about as easy as figuring out how much of pfal is profitable..lol
I think God would be perfectly capable of inspiring and teaching us here in the 21 century in a way that makes the most sense to us within the parameters fo what we can understand and allow, rather than trying to apply a system of belief designed to accommodate the understanding of a particular group of people 3000+ years ago.
I think it is like raising kids, no one set of rules apply as to how best reach each kiddo and help them develope. What works for one will not necessarily work for another, what the teenager is capable of and understands is vastly different than the toddler.
Do I believe in 2 crucified or 4? Do I believe in the trinity or not? Are the dead alive now or not?? Was there a man who really lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days? Did Noah REALLY manage to get pairs of every animal on earth?? Who cares?? I mean How really does that affect our responsibility today?
Love God and Love your neighbor...anything past that is inconsequential imo.
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JeffSjo
I choose to believe it as it is written cman.
Choosing to believe the scriptures after all the damage that TWI did while giving lip service to that choice is no easy thing for me.
I enjoy a lot of what you've shared, but in terms of this record, well, it works for me even though it is a harsh record.
Wierwille's version of what God did and didn't do is indicative of a false prophet. It seems to me that he would speak out of one side of the mouth when talking about God's goodness as it was directed at him, the MOG; while choosing to behave in a perverse and destructive fashion.
It doesn't surprise me that ex-wayfers would have trouble with this record. But for me it helps to consider the truth that in our flesh alone we all die. This record just points to a specific instance of it happening unto Ananias and Saphira. And if I have received mercy in anything like this record then I am obliged by the scriptures and my conscience to give the mercy that I've received instead of perhaps being judged like these two were in this record.
And for those who imagine false reasonings for why somebody else might have dropped dead at one time or another, well if God wasn't behind it for the reasons that the prophet says then he/she is just another self-styled false prophet. In real life these things are not easy to deal with when we have flesh and blood people to deal with. But nailing false prophets when speaking strictly theoretically isn't even that easy sometimes.
Dear Rascal,
I'm with you 100% on the importance of loving God and loving my neighbor.
For me it is important to love God knowing that may be willing to judge for Himself at any time as he did in this record though.
(edited for spelling)
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