In the presumed innocent thread, I was asked WHAT crimes I witnessed in twi.
I wonder, isn`t extortion a crime?
Is it not extortion when one is told that if you don`t give 15 % of your income that God won`t spit in your direction? To not tithe meant that satan had access to your family....
Is it extortion if you are told that you must accept screaming, physical abuse, obey all *suggestions* of another in order to be considered meak and allowed to stay within the boundaries of the hedge of God`s protection....
What about allowing leaders access into our homes, our finances, even our sex lives.....because God required it?
Is it extortion when you are told that you must throw your teen aged child out on the streets ..in order to not contaminate the house hold? To not do so means expulsion from the household of God into the darkness where satan can destroy the rest of you family?
Is it extortion to be told that if you didn`t complete wow or corpes commitment that you would be a liar, a vow breaker to God and have the example of Annanias and Saphira paraded in front of you??
Is it Extortion to have to chose between the life of your unborn child and God`s ability to protect you?
Even if we didn`t experience the drugging and rape personally, or the marriages destroyed and children taken away,did....yes even the death of some of our friends....I think each and everyone of us in some way had something taken from us in God`s name....
What we allowed to be done to us, the outragious abuses we suffered in silence...the crimes we were told not to report.... all because we were told that God required this of us, as far as I am concerned is criminal, whether the perpetrators are ever brought to justice or not.
Just for the record
Actually what I asked you was (and by the way no reply) was how many of the crimes that you like to accuse someone of guilt for, did you actually witness? The reason being since you seem to require first hand observation from some before they are qualified to speak ,I assume the same would hold true for you. So if you did not witness a rape for instance then you have no more authority to pass off your view as truth than I do as you were not geographically there either. Yes?
By the way No it is doubtful that free will contributions to charityor other free will decisions that one may make,or not are considered extortion by legal definition.
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">By the way No it is doubtful that free will contributions to charityor other free will decisions that one may make,or not are considered extortion by legal definition.</span>
It's not a "free will" "offering" when the powers that be scrutinize your paycheck and your checkbook and you've been screamed at and scared silly about God leaving you! That IS extortion. And every one of us witnessed it first hand although in the beginning we didn't realize what it was.
interesting how they manufactured a god who was a bully, a grumpus.. wouldn't move a muscle to help an individual, unless one sacrificed blood, sweat and tears..
hmm. 15 percent, or more.. of one's gross income required..
nteresting how they manufactured a god who was a bully, a grumpus.. wouldn't move a muscle to help an individual, unless one sacrificed blood, sweat and tears..
Not hard to see that they created a deity in their own image
I dont know about God, but I do know that TWI wouldnt spit in my direction once I stopped my ABS, they just turned vile despite all the years of promises that the ministry "belonged to me"
Unlawful exaction of money or property through intimidation or undue exercise of authority. It may include threats of physical harm, criminal prosecution, or public exposure. Some forms of threat, especially those made in writing, are occasionally singled out for separate statutory treatment as blackmail.
To gain by wrongful methods; to obtain in an unlawful manner, as in to compel payments by means of threats of injury to person, property, or reputation. To exact something wrongfully by threatening or putting in fear. The natural meaning of the word extort is to obtain money or other valuable things by compulsion, by actual force, or by the force of motives applied to the will, and often more overpowering and irresistible than physical force.
Comes pretty close to it. I don't know all the ins and outs of the Waydale case. . . the Allens. . . but I do remember reading something about the Rico Statute being part of it???? Maybe????
It seems to me that these guys took that which wasn`t theirs by insisting that it was required by God....be it money, power, other mens wives...
To me that is as powerful as any weapon. While I could stand up physically to a robber ... or a weapon ... How can you stand against God and fight back when that which was unthinkable was being demanded? How can you contemplate a life in the world of Darkness outside of the protection offered in the protection of being in the center of God`s will.
What was required, was not free will giving, or it wouldn`t have had such devistating consequences.
a "clergyman" failed to report domestic abuse that resulted in the injury of a child. that was a crime in the state where it took place, as there was mandatory reporting required of ordained ministers who knew of child abuse or spousal abuse that put children at risk. the "clergyman" also told me not to report it, because my children would be taken away. he failed to explain my children would only be taken away if I insisted on staying with my abuser.
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">By the way No it is doubtful that free will contributions to charityor other free will decisions that one may make,or not are considered extortion by legal definition.</span>
It's not a "free will" "offering" when the powers that be scrutinize your paycheck and your checkbook and you've been screamed at and scared silly about God leaving you! That IS extortion. And every one of us witnessed it first hand although in the beginning we didn't realize what it was.
Perhaps you did, but not everyone I know hundreds of people that would tell you the same. What happened in the 90s on excluded. I have heard here that things like that went on during that period but that was not the norm during the early years. No one ever scrutinized your paycheck and your checkbook.
I was a minor in a CF&S class. Seriously though, I had already seen, heard, and known much more than that class taught me.
Maybe the contents changed over time but when I took it in the mid 1970s, much of the material was legally inappropriate for 13 year old kids. Some of us objected. Wierwille said, "What better place to learn it than with "The Family"? Yeah, that's like saying your kid's gonna try drinking some day so why not just buy him/her a bottle of Turkey and get smashed together?
Those pictures were awful, I can`t imagine showing them to my minor children :(
So many things take on a different perspective now that I have kids that age, daughters that have grown to the age that were pressured to have sex with the mogs. Sons whom are old enough for the corpes and wow field ....to think of them being screamed at, immasculated by bully leaders....to think of them treated the way we were just makes my blood boil.
What about being told that if you didn`t abort your child you might die like annanias and saphira for lying to God?
It always seemed like do this.... give that.... put up with anything ....endure outrageous treatment...or God would not be able to protect you from the adversary who was out to kill you...
What about being in marriage *counceling* and told that IF my husband ever hit me...it was my fault for not being spiritually sharp enough to know when to shut up?
Who could you go to if you not your minister?
Something tells me that the questioner didn`t REALLY want to know about the crimes that I or anybody else witnessed while in twi :(
To me that is as powerful as any weapon. While I could stand up physically to a robber ... or a weapon ... How can you stand against God and fight back when that which was unthinkable was being demanded? How can you contemplate a life in the world of Darkness outside of the protection offered in the protection of being in the center of God`s will.
Personally it was easy for me because I just thought it was so much bullcrap and nobody held a gun on me when I wakled away because it wasn't Gods will because the bible tells me so.
Personally it was easy for me because I just thought it was so much bullcrap and nobody held a gun on me when I wakled away because it wasn't Gods will because the bible tells me so.
Glad your exit was so easy.
For some others, it wasn't quite that straightforward.
Personally, I don't really think one leaves The Way until they start to deliberately flush some of the toxins of Way doctrine and thinking from their minds.
What my problem is ... is that twi leaders showed me IN the bible where I WAS required to obey leadership, where I WAS required to do as they directed, what the consequences were for not obeying, not tithing, not submitting...how we weren`t supposed to take a brother to court..how we were to cover for one another`s crimes lest the ministry be blame...lock box...why adultery and fornication were ok, why you could do whatever you damned well pleased in the grace administration as long as you could handle it...why it was ok to turn your back on a brother or sister.....the list is endless...
Yeah, the bible told me so ... that was why we permitted and endured the evil THAT`S why the leaders got away with the crimes.
For some others, it wasn't quite that straightforward.
Personally, I don't really think one leaves The Way until they start to deliberately flush some of the toxins of Way doctrine and thinking from their minds.
I love this. I have come to the conclusion while posting here, that we all do this in differing ways. I have come to respect the New Agers, and the atheists a great deal here. . . even some Pagans :) because in many ways it shows a real movement well beyond TWI.
As a Christian I had to really examine what I believed, but it is an ongoing process. Life is learning. . . . not stagnant. I take the view God is big enough to learn about forever, and still not know completely. But, that is MY journey. . . others are different.
Diversity is a GOOD thing. Keeps you on your toes!!
That really was a toxic theology though. Learned responses and tactics. . . obfiscating. . . always being the "true household" of God. . . looking down on the very faith we tried to co-op.
I think difficulty in leaving had a lot to do with your position within TWI and time involved and also where you lived.
Some people think the bad stuff happened after Martindale took over but I have to say i was seeing bad stuff after my first year in TWI.
Here is some of the stuff I encountered from 79-83
Guns at ROA... beliefs that were not from the bible being taught to believers
the whole if you are advanced enough you can commit sins was an idea that I can vouch for hearing when I first got involved in the way in 1979.
Arguments about doctrine and some of the teachings being inaccurate... arguments about PFAL and inaccuracies.
THE Gay bashing thing started as early as 1981. I saw it first hand... not just heard about it saw it. and i was out west when it happened.
Mark and Avoid was going on as early as 1981 I do not think it was called that but it was practiced with in the Way Corps.
The teaching that it was okay to have extra marital sex was out their also as early as 1979 and because of who was teaching it I am gonna guess it was going on two years before I saw it. This was a Corps person ... from 6th way corps.
NOT to mention hearing it bandied about by other Corps at the ROA
Do I have facts no I did not carry around tape recording devices and these are not the kind of things people write down so no but I know what I saw and heard for myself.
For me reading that others saw this stuff too makes me realize that I was not imagining it and that I was right when it gave me the creeps.
Now I am just glad to have escaped in more or less one piece mentally.. spiritually is a different story. .
BTW as early as 1980 they were telling people they were not really tithing if they were not giving at least ten percent and it ought to be from your gross earnings not your net earnings oh and by the way if you do not Tithe at least ten percent you can not expect to be financially blessed by God. And this was the WOW's they were telling it to.
at least in the State I was in.
As to breaking legal laws maybe what I saw wasn't breaking legal laws but it was certainly breaking God's precepts. I guess would be the right way to word it.
IS any Church perfect NO a thousand times no but if the Church or group you are going to is not at least making an attempt to stand on the Word of God then get out .. and run for the hills.
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WhiteDove
Just for the record
Actually what I asked you was (and by the way no reply) was how many of the crimes that you like to accuse someone of guilt for, did you actually witness? The reason being since you seem to require first hand observation from some before they are qualified to speak ,I assume the same would hold true for you. So if you did not witness a rape for instance then you have no more authority to pass off your view as truth than I do as you were not geographically there either. Yes?
By the way No it is doubtful that free will contributions to charityor other free will decisions that one may make,or not are considered extortion by legal definition.
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krys
It's not a "free will" "offering" when the powers that be scrutinize your paycheck and your checkbook and you've been screamed at and scared silly about God leaving you! That IS extortion. And every one of us witnessed it first hand although in the beginning we didn't realize what it was.
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waysider
"God won't spit in your direction unless----"
"You'll be a grease spot by midnight if you ever -------"
Nope. No extortion there.
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Ham
interesting how they manufactured a god who was a bully, a grumpus.. wouldn't move a muscle to help an individual, unless one sacrificed blood, sweat and tears..
hmm. 15 percent, or more.. of one's gross income required..
sounds like a "divine protection" racket now..
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mstar1
Not hard to see that they created a deity in their own image
I dont know about God, but I do know that TWI wouldnt spit in my direction once I stopped my ABS, they just turned vile despite all the years of promises that the ministry "belonged to me"
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geisha779
Definition of extortion.. ..
Unlawful exaction of money or property through intimidation or undue exercise of authority. It may include threats of physical harm, criminal prosecution, or public exposure. Some forms of threat, especially those made in writing, are occasionally singled out for separate statutory treatment as blackmail.
To gain by wrongful methods; to obtain in an unlawful manner, as in to compel payments by means of threats of injury to person, property, or reputation. To exact something wrongfully by threatening or putting in fear. The natural meaning of the word extort is to obtain money or other valuable things by compulsion, by actual force, or by the force of motives applied to the will, and often more overpowering and irresistible than physical force.
Comes pretty close to it. I don't know all the ins and outs of the Waydale case. . . the Allens. . . but I do remember reading something about the Rico Statute being part of it???? Maybe????
That is racketeering.
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rascal
It seems to me that these guys took that which wasn`t theirs by insisting that it was required by God....be it money, power, other mens wives...
To me that is as powerful as any weapon. While I could stand up physically to a robber ... or a weapon ... How can you stand against God and fight back when that which was unthinkable was being demanded? How can you contemplate a life in the world of Darkness outside of the protection offered in the protection of being in the center of God`s will.
What was required, was not free will giving, or it wouldn`t have had such devistating consequences.
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potato
I witnessed a crime:
a "clergyman" failed to report domestic abuse that resulted in the injury of a child. that was a crime in the state where it took place, as there was mandatory reporting required of ordained ministers who knew of child abuse or spousal abuse that put children at risk. the "clergyman" also told me not to report it, because my children would be taken away. he failed to explain my children would only be taken away if I insisted on staying with my abuser.
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waysider
I'm so sorry, potato.
Court or no court, What these guys did was inexcusable.
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waysider
Anyone here ever participate in a CF&S class where minors were present?
Wierwille assured us it was all O.k. because we were "family."
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WhiteDove
Perhaps you did, but not everyone I know hundreds of people that would tell you the same. What happened in the 90s on excluded. I have heard here that things like that went on during that period but that was not the norm during the early years. No one ever scrutinized your paycheck and your checkbook.
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Mister P-Mosh
I was a minor in a CF&S class. Seriously though, I had already seen, heard, and known much more than that class taught me.
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waysider
Maybe the contents changed over time but when I took it in the mid 1970s, much of the material was legally inappropriate for 13 year old kids. Some of us objected. Wierwille said, "What better place to learn it than with "The Family"? Yeah, that's like saying your kid's gonna try drinking some day so why not just buy him/her a bottle of Turkey and get smashed together?
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WordWolf
I WASN'T a minor, but I took it WITH minors. Dirty pictures and all.
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rascal
Those pictures were awful, I can`t imagine showing them to my minor children :(
So many things take on a different perspective now that I have kids that age, daughters that have grown to the age that were pressured to have sex with the mogs. Sons whom are old enough for the corpes and wow field ....to think of them being screamed at, immasculated by bully leaders....to think of them treated the way we were just makes my blood boil.
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rascal
What about sexual harassment?
What about being told that if you didn`t abort your child you might die like annanias and saphira for lying to God?
It always seemed like do this.... give that.... put up with anything ....endure outrageous treatment...or God would not be able to protect you from the adversary who was out to kill you...
That seems like extortion and a crime to me :(
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Ham
I personally witnessed three wives publically abused and humiliated..
back in the "good old days"..
1976.
oh yeah.. the "men" were (supposedly) LEADERS..
one handpicked by the vicster himself.. (supposedly) a REVERAND..
the other two, handpicked by the guy the vicster chose..
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Ham
I wonder what emboldened these MORONS to do something like that in front of a "witness"..
maybe they thought I was too beat down to say or do anything about it..
well.. they were right, at the moment..
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rascal
What about being in marriage *counceling* and told that IF my husband ever hit me...it was my fault for not being spiritually sharp enough to know when to shut up?
Who could you go to if you not your minister?
Something tells me that the questioner didn`t REALLY want to know about the crimes that I or anybody else witnessed while in twi :(
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ClayJay
Personally it was easy for me because I just thought it was so much bullcrap and nobody held a gun on me when I wakled away because it wasn't Gods will because the bible tells me so.
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waysider
Glad your exit was so easy.
For some others, it wasn't quite that straightforward.
Personally, I don't really think one leaves The Way until they start to deliberately flush some of the toxins of Way doctrine and thinking from their minds.
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rascal
That`s cool ClayJay, it WAS bull crap for sure.
What my problem is ... is that twi leaders showed me IN the bible where I WAS required to obey leadership, where I WAS required to do as they directed, what the consequences were for not obeying, not tithing, not submitting...how we weren`t supposed to take a brother to court..how we were to cover for one another`s crimes lest the ministry be blame...lock box...why adultery and fornication were ok, why you could do whatever you damned well pleased in the grace administration as long as you could handle it...why it was ok to turn your back on a brother or sister.....the list is endless...
Yeah, the bible told me so ... that was why we permitted and endured the evil THAT`S why the leaders got away with the crimes.
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geisha779
I love this. I have come to the conclusion while posting here, that we all do this in differing ways. I have come to respect the New Agers, and the atheists a great deal here. . . even some Pagans :) because in many ways it shows a real movement well beyond TWI.
As a Christian I had to really examine what I believed, but it is an ongoing process. Life is learning. . . . not stagnant. I take the view God is big enough to learn about forever, and still not know completely. But, that is MY journey. . . others are different.
Diversity is a GOOD thing. Keeps you on your toes!!
That really was a toxic theology though. Learned responses and tactics. . . obfiscating. . . always being the "true household" of God. . . looking down on the very faith we tried to co-op.
Fascinating.
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leafytwiglet
I think difficulty in leaving had a lot to do with your position within TWI and time involved and also where you lived.
Some people think the bad stuff happened after Martindale took over but I have to say i was seeing bad stuff after my first year in TWI.
Here is some of the stuff I encountered from 79-83
Guns at ROA... beliefs that were not from the bible being taught to believers
the whole if you are advanced enough you can commit sins was an idea that I can vouch for hearing when I first got involved in the way in 1979.
Arguments about doctrine and some of the teachings being inaccurate... arguments about PFAL and inaccuracies.
THE Gay bashing thing started as early as 1981. I saw it first hand... not just heard about it saw it. and i was out west when it happened.
Mark and Avoid was going on as early as 1981 I do not think it was called that but it was practiced with in the Way Corps.
The teaching that it was okay to have extra marital sex was out their also as early as 1979 and because of who was teaching it I am gonna guess it was going on two years before I saw it. This was a Corps person ... from 6th way corps.
NOT to mention hearing it bandied about by other Corps at the ROA
Do I have facts no I did not carry around tape recording devices and these are not the kind of things people write down so no but I know what I saw and heard for myself.
For me reading that others saw this stuff too makes me realize that I was not imagining it and that I was right when it gave me the creeps.
Now I am just glad to have escaped in more or less one piece mentally.. spiritually is a different story. .
BTW as early as 1980 they were telling people they were not really tithing if they were not giving at least ten percent and it ought to be from your gross earnings not your net earnings oh and by the way if you do not Tithe at least ten percent you can not expect to be financially blessed by God. And this was the WOW's they were telling it to.
at least in the State I was in.
As to breaking legal laws maybe what I saw wasn't breaking legal laws but it was certainly breaking God's precepts. I guess would be the right way to word it.
IS any Church perfect NO a thousand times no but if the Church or group you are going to is not at least making an attempt to stand on the Word of God then get out .. and run for the hills.
Oh gosh sorry that went on a bit didn't it.
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