"As a victim of a horrible crime my own self while in the way the reason I was marked was because he went to jail and I pressed charges and it was a mess and he was a leader. No so sorry you rabid internet drooling for a tidbit to talk about I aint saying dates names or anything but I aint a victim and I do not blame the way that I didnt know evil people prey on innocent women they didnt know I didnt know what I do now, anymore than they knew he was the type he was.
they just didnt want people to know to focus on the drama of it all and I was very very hurt I was marked but in hind sight it was for the best because the "believers" would have taken sides etc... and I was so very hurt at the time.
I did go back almost ten years later and found out with eyes to see and ears to hear the real issues I had with twi ."
Do you or do you not have any business interests that involve sales of Way materials?
I'm not interested in a song and dance routine.
Just answer the question.
waysider........seems like WhiteDove kept side-stepping your question, but he did state the following on the Eyewitnesses: twi 1976....your stories? thread.....post #56:
FYI:
Brian released Captain of Salvation on his post way tape Electrified.
Freedom Soil is available on Deans Cd - Look into the Word
If you are interested in one you can email or PM me here. Next year we should have a website up and running for all you old music fans. http://itiswrittenbooks.com is the address but right now all you can do is watch it snow and play with the Christmas Balls. Cd's should run about $6.00 for the older Pressed Down,Joyful Noise, Stevie Kay,Miles of Smiles.....Plus lots of new music from some old friends.
I'm not sure that would constitute a conflict of interest---------- but it surely creates the appearance of one. And then to vocally protest books like Kristen's, that expose The Way, implying their motives are purely financial, seems a bit hypocritical to me. One would think that, with all the training The Way provided us in the art of obviation, a disclaimer would have appeared early on.
Damned right I take it personally. These guys represented themselves as God`s men. They required this in God`s name...these girls were no different or more idealistic than us...they were targeted by the pervs. We were all exploited in one way or another in twi by these people...it`s just that these people had more taken.
But me believe each and every story as gospel though?? Please....are you deliberately trying to be insulting? There were a lot more than just the story about the lc on that single thread alone. I have met a couple of the ladies who posted on that thread. There are many stories all with the same theme...the same thread running through each. ... the women being called to the motor home and pressured for sex. If refused, a drink was offered. next waking thought was in bed with sex in progress.
Those who refused the drink were slandered afterwards and declared possessed so that no one would believe anything that they said. Did I know all of them?? No, but I knew a couple, and I know folks that personally know some of the other victims who posted. John Lynn himself admitted that there had been drugging ... Ralf D discusses the women who came to him for help afterwards...Kristin Skedgell wrote a book about her experiences. There are podcasts where she and the former trunk coordinator discuss their experiences.
It is on the thread being discussed, also is on one of the accounts on messiah 7 site....all of which waysider provided the link to for you, and someone even bumped the thread up to the front page. There might be some accounts on the suicide thread as well. Rather than attack me on what these women said...why don`t you read the accounts yourself?
There are plenty of reliable accounts, and no they are not all nameless and faceless any more.
I think I said some were satisfied with the arangement.
This one is equivalent to saying
"Lots of people met Jeffrey Dahmer and were never eaten"
and using that to suggest Dahmer was innocent of cannibalism.
We don't care how many people Dahmer DIDN'T eat.
We don't care how many people vpw DIDN'T molest, rape, drug, or abuse.
We care about those he did- even if the number of people he DIDN'T was
tens of thousands and he "only" abused, say 100.
Even IF you're correct that that particular person wasn't a victim in a substantial sense,
that is a non-issue for this discussion. How you can read paragraphs of one victim,
miss them completely, then find the one sentence on the "non-victim" should strike
people, at the least, as PECULIAR.
By the way I love your new math 1+1+1= 3 No wait it's 100dreds.
If you're not going to bother putting in time to read a FEW accounts of victims,
why should he bother linking dozens and dozens?
Some people have read OTHER accounts here, and expressed sympathy for the victims.
Why can't you be more like them? Specifically, like THIS poster:
(snip)
I am sorry your hearts are once again hurt and your wounds are again opened. As we approach a new year I pray that this is the last time such hurt and pain is again reintroduced into your lives. As awful as I feel right now I know that I can not even come close to how these women are feeling. I hope that posters will consider the effects of their words on these women in the future. We have all of this information archived in the greasespot I just don't see why we need to continually reintroduce it into their lives each month they deal with it everyday I'm sure as it is.
That poster specifically was responding to the accounts of 2 other posters, whom he believed
reliable, giving reliable accounts. His reaction was to try to comfort the suffering.
He had READ plenty of the accounts, at least some of which he deemed "reliable" or "trustworthy."
He didn't see the need to keep bringing them up, challenging the women who suffered,
suggesting they were less than truthful, and so on.
waysider........seems like WhiteDove kept side-stepping your question, but he did state the following on the Eyewitnesses: twi 1976....your stories? thread.....post #56:
Well lets cut to the chase: 1.
And then to vocally protest books like Kristen's, that expose The Way, implying their motives are purely financial, seems a bit hypocritical to me.
Exactly how do you figure that? I wrote no book that brings revenue to me ,as such I have no motive for skewing the truth for sales. What does writing a book for her sole profit have to do with selling others music for non profit to benefit them, have to do with each other. Not even remotely the same thing.
2. We sell no books by VPW the last one I had was left from Way days Receiving the Holy Spirit which I sold to someone that posts here on a regular basis because they asked for it. As a service I sold it for the same cost we had in it. I think if I remember correctly we paid the postage. which means we lost money.
3. We sell all our items at the same prices that the artists do many times because of re-mailing we end up loosing money ,the bookstore was never intended to make profit its purpose was to help others get materials they desired and to help those former way musicians sell their music. I figure it is a nice thing to do since they never received any compensation while they were in the Way.
4. By the way this week I sent out a CD for absolutely no cost -that means we paid not only the shipping, but the cost of the CD itself. I did so because I thought it was the right thing to do. Additionally I have sent music to posters here because they asked for me to, including my arch nemesis Rascal
So as usual Waysider you have no point, although you try hard to find one. The bookstore looses money, contrary to self published books that return (less expenses) all the profit to the writer.
"Lots of people met Jeffrey Dahmer and were never eaten"
and using that to suggest Dahmer was innocent of cannibalism.
We don't care how many people Dahmer DIDN'T eat.
We don't care how many people vpw DIDN'T molest, rape, drug, or abuse.
We care about those he did- even if the number of people he DIDN'T was
tens of thousands and he "only" abused, say 100.
Even IF you're correct that that particular person wasn't a victim in a substantial sense,
that is a non-issue for this discussion. How you can read paragraphs of one victim,
miss them completely, then find the one sentence on the "non-victim" should strike
people, at the least, as PECULIAR.
No it's not, it is very much the issue, it establishes that possibility there are other reasons for the variance in the stories. One could argue the same your way posting stories of victims has nothing to do with willing sex.
Point being there are two sides to the story, as Pond pointed out we pick the one we like often. I choose to look at the whole picture and see that there are two distinct sides as such without further documentation it is a guess as to which is the real story or what possible motives there are for the difference in them.
If you're not going to bother putting in time to read a FEW accounts of victims,
why should he bother linking dozens and dozens?
Some people have read OTHER accounts here, and expressed sympathy for the victims.
Why can't you be more like them? Specifically, like THIS poster:
To document his point. Numbers remember? Not to mention 3 is a long way from 100s
That poster specifically was responding to the accounts of 2 other posters, whom he believed
reliable, giving reliable accounts. His reaction was to try to comfort the suffering.
He had READ plenty of the accounts, at least some of which he deemed "reliable" or "trustworthy."
He didn't see the need to keep bringing them up, challenging the women who suffered,
suggesting they were less than truthful, and so on.
I wish that poster was posting on this thread.
And yet here it is years later and some continue to bring it up day after day. I still see no need for such,thats my opinion others may think different, nor do I see the need to claim guilt when there is none established. Stating an opinion or a personal testimony is one thing, wannabees who were not there beating the story to death is another. My concern is with the later, I have stated numerous times the stories are undocumentable they could be right or wrong . Until they are right guilt is not established. You want to state it's your opinion fine with me ,but opinion is not documented fact.
So, are you saying, WD, that you have NO business interests that involve sales of Way materials,
that the closest you DO have to such an interest is operating AT A FINANCIAL LOSS by distributing
specific music media?
That's a carefully-worded question. You can fairly answer "YES" or "NO" to it.
I noticed you STILL didn't answer his question- you only attacked someone else's post in response
to the question you didn't answer.
Correct AT A FINANCIAL LOSS or at best we break even on the cost. Time aside as there is no compensation there.
I did indeed receive music from Dove ...lol but that was no doubt before he decided I was his *nemisis* ;) Seriously, thanks again, it was indeed a blessing....and no, much as I would LIKE to villify you Dove, I know it isn`t about financial gain for you. :)
As far as twi stuff...I think it isn`t even necessarily a monetary thing, but feeling what we had, what we learned, was of value. Of loving who and what we thought that we represented....of what we invested our hearts and souls into... our identity and self worth is somehow all tied into the ok ness of twi.
If one negates vpw or the value of what he taught...it somehow diminishes who we are and what we believe...we go from super conquerers to dupes that enabled evil to thrive.... .some times we just don`t want to be wrong about what we have dedicated lives to...it is easier to blame or accuse the people who`s experiences contradict our own then it is to re examine our entire belief system, how we view ourselves, and the universe around us.
I did indeed receive music from Dove ...lol but that was no doubt before he decided I was his *nemisis* :) Seriously, thanks again, it was indeed a blessing.
As far as twi stuff...I think it isn`t even necessarily a monetary thing, but feeling what we had, what we learned, was of value. Of loving who and what we thought that we represented....of what we invested our hearts and souls into... our identity and self worth is somehow all tied into the ok ness of twi.
If one negates vpw or the value of what he taught...it somehow diminishes who we are and what we believe...we go from super conquerers to dupes that enabled evil to thrive.... .some times we just don`t want to be wrong about what we have dedicated lives to...it is easier to blame or accuse the people who`s experiences contradict our own then it is to re examine our entire belief system, how we view ourselves, and the universe around us.
I understand feeling that way.
Rascal I hope you noted the laugh in my post it was an attempt at humor , that aside the door is open for any request you may have in the future. If I can help get you something that you desire I will do so. Our disagreements here have no bearing on that.
((dove)) I did indeed, it gave me a real chuckle. Likewise, I hope you realized that mine was attempted humor as well, (I edited a bit after you posted in all seriousness and hope you see that also) :)
Thank you for the offer it is genuinely appreciated.
"As a victim of a horrible crime my own self while in the way the reason I was marked was because he went to jail and I pressed charges and it was a mess and he was a leader. No so sorry you rabid internet drooling for a tidbit to talk about I aint saying dates names or anything but I aint a victim and I do not blame the way that I didnt know evil people prey on innocent women they didnt know I didnt know what I do now, anymore than they knew he was the type he was.
they just didnt want people to know to focus on the drama of it all and I was very very hurt I was marked but in hind sight it was for the best because the "believers" would have taken sides etc... and I was so very hurt at the time.
I did go back almost ten years later and found out with eyes to see and ears to hear the real issues I had with twi ."
I did indeed receive music from Dove ...lol but that was no doubt before he decided I was his *nemisis* ;) Seriously, thanks again, it was indeed a blessing....and no, much as I would LIKE to villify you Dove, I know it isn`t about financial gain for you. :)
As far as twi stuff...I think it isn`t even necessarily a monetary thing, but feeling what we had, what we learned, was of value. Of loving who and what we thought that we represented....of what we invested our hearts and souls into... our identity and self worth is somehow all tied into the ok ness of twi.
If one negates vpw or the value of what he taught...it somehow diminishes who we are and what we believe...we go from super conquerers to dupes that enabled evil to thrive.... .some times we just don`t want to be wrong about what we have dedicated lives to...it is easier to blame or accuse the people who`s experiences contradict our own then it is to re examine our entire belief system, how we view ourselves, and the universe around us.
I understand feeling that way.
Getting involved with the way was not a popular thing for many. it was a cult then too.
I was M/A i do not know about you rascal butwhen the branch leader tells you you can no longer speak to any believer go to fellowhsip or associate with anyone in the way it kind of has a way of helping one dismiss the importance of what the group was or is.
But I do not blame the way any more than I could blame pawtucket for what people say and do on this forum.
I am not defending any man or woman, i do defend truth tho. always will .
My relation with the Lord Jesus christ didnt begin with twi nor did it end with them
I was M/A i do not know about you rascal butwhen the branch leader tells you you can no longer speak to any believer go to fellowhsip or associate with anyone in the way it kind of has a way of helping one dismiss the importance of what the group was or is.
these folks who use the internet to entertain their lust for sexual talk in a thread and refuse to prosecute or even metion names really are cowards and It allows everyone to stay stuck in victim mode and relish in the drama and often times sick glory of it all.
</snip>
that's quite an accusation, pond.
I'm really glad you prosecuted the man who committed a crime against you, for your sake. however, I take issue with your implication that women who did not prosecute suffer from weakness of character. you gotta remember, back in the days when vpw was doing his thing, that first the girl would have had to get access to the police, then it would have been her word against his since we didn't have dna forensics. then she would have had to stand in court when the defense had free rein to shred her character, or to argue that because she agreed to have sex it was consensual, and never mind that threats were made or there was pressure brought about by awareness of consequences other's had suffered for saying NO. from the testimony I read, it seems vpw chose his victims pretty well. he chose the most submissive women, women who looked up to him, who could be easily influenced, women under duress.
rape goes unreported all the time because the victims are afraid or ashamed. that doesn't mean a rape didn't occur or that the victim can never talk about it because she (or he) didn't go to the police at the time.
I do not have to remember a thing vpw and I are not to many years apart in age . my situation was many many years ago .
and I never said anyone had weakness of character ????? I said today they can name names today as in if you say vpw raped you say it ...they can but they do not .
and they can make police reports today . if the person is still alive . specificly i was referring to the snip waysider posted.. in which only the word region leader is written rather vague.
one I do not even think that is vpw he was never called that and two why not press charges now? show a police report. as I said before whether the DA would prosecute is one thing but you can always report a crime .
that is how the catholic church got busted after years of past reporting . did ya read it?
Ex!
where have you been? helllo I remember crying that day like it was the end of my life, now so many years later with grand babys and a full house i think everytime one of my children really are being to emotional rmember the day you cried about that!
I used to think they would come into my house when I was at court, maybe they did twi made me paranoid it did those days right after vpw death were a TRIP!
And yet here it is years later and some continue to bring it up day after day. I still see no need for such,thats my opinion others may think different, nor do I see the need to claim guilt when there is none established.
So that's it. You see no need to continually bring it up. No one is forcing anyone to be here. If you have moved on, then perhaps the best thing you can do is find something else to entertain yourself.
my apologies, pond, if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have a hard time sorting through your posts.
<snip>
and I never said anyone had weakness of character ????? I said today they can name names today as in if you say vpw raped you say it ...they can but they do not .
it was the following portions of your posts that made me think you were implying vpw's victims had weakness of character... because they "let" it happen to them, then they didn't report it.
<snip>
this i know for a fact my kids would have knocked their lightsout really quick.
they have self respect. Not to say that danger isnt out there but so is prosecution and justice which rely on truth and honesty and integrity to survive.
</snip>
<snip>
I believe a girl has to have self respect and morals and christian values to be safe or guy for that matter.
and as far as this:
and they can make police reports today . if the person is still alive . specificly i was referring to the snip waysider posted.. in which only the word region leader is written rather vague.
one I do not even think that is vpw he was never called that and two why not press charges now? show a police report. as I said before whether the DA would prosecute is one thing but you can always report a crime .
that is how the catholic church got busted after years of past reporting . did ya read it?
and this
<snip>
one can file a report with the police at any time , wether the DA choses to prosecute is up to evidence yet even years after a crime such as sexual abuse additional victims come forward from previous years this is how the catholic church got sued by so many.
but no one it is vpw she names in fact she names no one . and he still has never been charged nor LCM. nor this "region leader" .
there are statutes of limitations that require sexual assault be reported within a certain time-frame. from what I remember of the catholic church rapes, the statute had not run out for the young men pressing charges.
also, perhaps you cannot call "attempted rape" "rape", but both are forms of sexual assault, which vpw most certainly committed on what appears from the evidence to be a regular basis.
my apologies, pond, if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have a hard time sorting through your posts.
it was the following portions of your posts that made me think you were implying vpw's victims had weakness of character... because they "let" it happen to them, then they didn't report it.
and as far as this:
and this
there are statutes of limitations that require sexual assault be reported within a certain time-frame. from what I remember of the catholic church rapes, the statute had not run out for the young men pressing charges.
also, perhaps you cannot call "attempted rape" "rape", but both are forms of sexual assault, which vpw most certainly committed on what appears from the evidence to be a regular basis.
you do not have a hard time sorting thru my posts you like to twist what I say .
ex said she had regrettable sex with vpw . She is the only one on this board only testimony that says his name and tells her story . she doesnt claim rape as far as I hear it she claims eeeewww and I do not blame her .
yes i read of certain titles (the one waysider snip in this post ) that some woman say they had sex with, i see no one eles name vpw. .
you say that but Show me just one other please.
sexual misconduct is not rape nor is it child molestation . just because many years after having sex with a guy you decide that was astupid idea and I was used as a pawn doesnt make it illegal.
my apologies, pond, if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have a hard time sorting through your posts.
it was the following portions of your posts that made me think you were implying vpw's victims had weakness of character... because they "let" it happen to them, then they didn't report it.
and as far as this:
and this
there are statutes of limitations that require sexual assault be reported within a certain time-frame. from what I remember of the catholic church rapes, the statute had not run out for the young men pressing charges.
also, perhaps you cannot call "attempted rape" "rape", but both are forms of sexual assault, which vpw most certainly committed on what appears from the evidence to be a regular basis.
you do not have a hard time sorting thru my posts you like to twist what I say .
ex said she had regrettable sex with vpw . She is the only one on this board only testimony that says his name and tells her story . she doesnt claim rape as far as I hear it she claims eeeewww and I do not blame her . she was not a minor child nor was she attacked and forced by her account.
yes i read of certain titles (the one waysider snip in this post ) that some woman say they had sex with, i see no one eles name vpw. . or use any names at all. the man is dead good point so why not say his name clearly?
you say "regular bases" but Show me just one other please.
sexual misconduct is not rape nor is it child molestation . just because many years after having sex with a guy you decide that was astupid idea and I was used as a pawn doesnt make it illegal.
or even the next day.
wrong maybe but not illegal.
just one that names vpw as a man who raped them .
can you do that?
clear enough ?
never the less
my apologies, pond, if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have a hard time sorting through your posts.
it was the following portions of your posts that made me think you were implying vpw's victims had weakness of character... because they "let" it happen to them, then they didn't report it.
and as far as this:
and this
there are statutes of limitations that require sexual assault be reported within a certain time-frame. from what I remember of the catholic church rapes, the statute had not run out for the young men pressing charges.
also, perhaps you cannot call "attempted rape" "rape", but both are forms of sexual assault, which vpw most certainly committed on what appears from the evidence to be a regular basis.
you do not have a hard time sorting thru my posts you like to twist what I say .
ex said she had regrettable sex with vpw . She is the only one on this board only testimony that says his name and tells her story . she doesnt claim rape as far as I hear it she claims eeeewww and I do not blame her . she was not a minor child nor was she attacked and forced by her account.
yes i read of certain titles (the one waysider snip in this post ) that some woman say they had sex with, i see no one eles name vpw. . or use any names at all. the man is dead good point so why not say his name clearly?
you say "regular bases" but Show me just one other please.
sexual misconduct is not rape nor is it child molestation . just because many years after having sex with a guy you decide that was astupid idea and I was used as a pawn doesnt make it illegal.
When you slip a drug into someones drink and then have sex with them while they are incapacitated, that is rape.
It may not be rape in the same sense that many people use to define rape, (ie: forced physical violence that culminates in a sex act.) but it is, by legal definition, rape. Unwanted sex initiated trough coercion or psychological manipulation can also be sometimes defined as rape. Acting as a go-between to supply someone with sex partners is "pandering". It's also illegal. Exposing minors to pornography or sexually explicit materials is a crime. There are examples of that here and they name VPW. Supplying minors with alcohol is a crime in Ohio. There are examples of that here and they name VPW. Likewise, transporting a person across state lines for the purpose of "debauchery" is a federal crime. It is a violation of The Mann Act and does not require that a rape take place. There are examples of transporting for debauchery here on GSC and they name VPW.
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rascal
I assume that YOUR interaction WITH people here at gs where YOU said what your actual experience was in twi was true and factual. I think you are playing word games because you don`tlike being remind
potato
actually, for the record, the claims have been documented. methinks you should go back and read the federal rules of evidence again. at this point, in a court of law, the documented testimony of vpw
waysider
Pure fabrication ,never stated such what I said was I'm not by the way seeing many here posting. You seem to be claiming guilt exactly how many rapes did you witness? I thought so you read an opinion
waysider
"As a victim of a horrible crime my own self while in the way the reason I was marked was because he went to jail and I pressed charges and it was a mess and he was a leader. No so sorry you rabid internet drooling for a tidbit to talk about I aint saying dates names or anything but I aint a victim and I do not blame the way that I didnt know evil people prey on innocent women they didnt know I didnt know what I do now, anymore than they knew he was the type he was.
they just didnt want people to know to focus on the drama of it all and I was very very hurt I was marked but in hind sight it was for the best because the "believers" would have taken sides etc... and I was so very hurt at the time.
I did go back almost ten years later and found out with eyes to see and ears to hear the real issues I had with twi ."
********************************************************
Now you're saying someone in The Way abused you too?
Suppose I tell you I think you just made that all up?
After all, you're not providing any names or dates.
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skyrider
waysider........seems like WhiteDove kept side-stepping your question, but he did state the following on the Eyewitnesses: twi 1976....your stories? thread.....post #56:
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waysider
I'm not sure that would constitute a conflict of interest---------- but it surely creates the appearance of one. And then to vocally protest books like Kristen's, that expose The Way, implying their motives are purely financial, seems a bit hypocritical to me. One would think that, with all the training The Way provided us in the art of obviation, a disclaimer would have appeared early on.
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rascal
Damned right I take it personally. These guys represented themselves as God`s men. They required this in God`s name...these girls were no different or more idealistic than us...they were targeted by the pervs. We were all exploited in one way or another in twi by these people...it`s just that these people had more taken.
But me believe each and every story as gospel though?? Please....are you deliberately trying to be insulting? There were a lot more than just the story about the lc on that single thread alone. I have met a couple of the ladies who posted on that thread. There are many stories all with the same theme...the same thread running through each. ... the women being called to the motor home and pressured for sex. If refused, a drink was offered. next waking thought was in bed with sex in progress.
Those who refused the drink were slandered afterwards and declared possessed so that no one would believe anything that they said. Did I know all of them?? No, but I knew a couple, and I know folks that personally know some of the other victims who posted. John Lynn himself admitted that there had been drugging ... Ralf D discusses the women who came to him for help afterwards...Kristin Skedgell wrote a book about her experiences. There are podcasts where she and the former trunk coordinator discuss their experiences.
It is on the thread being discussed, also is on one of the accounts on messiah 7 site....all of which waysider provided the link to for you, and someone even bumped the thread up to the front page. There might be some accounts on the suicide thread as well. Rather than attack me on what these women said...why don`t you read the accounts yourself?
There are plenty of reliable accounts, and no they are not all nameless and faceless any more.
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WordWolf
This one is equivalent to saying
"Lots of people met Jeffrey Dahmer and were never eaten"
and using that to suggest Dahmer was innocent of cannibalism.
We don't care how many people Dahmer DIDN'T eat.
We don't care how many people vpw DIDN'T molest, rape, drug, or abuse.
We care about those he did- even if the number of people he DIDN'T was
tens of thousands and he "only" abused, say 100.
Even IF you're correct that that particular person wasn't a victim in a substantial sense,
that is a non-issue for this discussion. How you can read paragraphs of one victim,
miss them completely, then find the one sentence on the "non-victim" should strike
people, at the least, as PECULIAR.
If you're not going to bother putting in time to read a FEW accounts of victims,
why should he bother linking dozens and dozens?
Some people have read OTHER accounts here, and expressed sympathy for the victims.
Why can't you be more like them? Specifically, like THIS poster:
That poster specifically was responding to the accounts of 2 other posters, whom he believed
reliable, giving reliable accounts. His reaction was to try to comfort the suffering.
He had READ plenty of the accounts, at least some of which he deemed "reliable" or "trustworthy."
He didn't see the need to keep bringing them up, challenging the women who suffered,
suggesting they were less than truthful, and so on.
I wish that poster was posting on this thread.
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WhiteDove
Well lets cut to the chase: 1.
Exactly how do you figure that? I wrote no book that brings revenue to me ,as such I have no motive for skewing the truth for sales. What does writing a book for her sole profit have to do with selling others music for non profit to benefit them, have to do with each other. Not even remotely the same thing.
2. We sell no books by VPW the last one I had was left from Way days Receiving the Holy Spirit which I sold to someone that posts here on a regular basis because they asked for it. As a service I sold it for the same cost we had in it. I think if I remember correctly we paid the postage. which means we lost money.
3. We sell all our items at the same prices that the artists do many times because of re-mailing we end up loosing money ,the bookstore was never intended to make profit its purpose was to help others get materials they desired and to help those former way musicians sell their music. I figure it is a nice thing to do since they never received any compensation while they were in the Way.
4. By the way this week I sent out a CD for absolutely no cost -that means we paid not only the shipping, but the cost of the CD itself. I did so because I thought it was the right thing to do. Additionally I have sent music to posters here because they asked for me to, including my arch nemesis Rascal
So as usual Waysider you have no point, although you try hard to find one. The bookstore looses money, contrary to self published books that return (less expenses) all the profit to the writer.
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WordWolf
So, are you saying, WD, that you have NO business interests that involve sales of Way materials,
that the closest you DO have to such an interest is operating AT A FINANCIAL LOSS by distributing
specific music media?
That's a carefully-worded question. You can fairly answer "YES" or "NO" to it.
I noticed you STILL didn't answer his question- you only attacked someone else's post in response
to the question you didn't answer.
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WhiteDove
quote name='WordWolf' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:24 AM' post='459497']
This one is equivalent to saying
"Lots of people met Jeffrey Dahmer and were never eaten"
and using that to suggest Dahmer was innocent of cannibalism.
We don't care how many people Dahmer DIDN'T eat.
We don't care how many people vpw DIDN'T molest, rape, drug, or abuse.
We care about those he did- even if the number of people he DIDN'T was
tens of thousands and he "only" abused, say 100.
Even IF you're correct that that particular person wasn't a victim in a substantial sense,
that is a non-issue for this discussion. How you can read paragraphs of one victim,
miss them completely, then find the one sentence on the "non-victim" should strike
people, at the least, as PECULIAR.
No it's not, it is very much the issue, it establishes that possibility there are other reasons for the variance in the stories. One could argue the same your way posting stories of victims has nothing to do with willing sex.
Point being there are two sides to the story, as Pond pointed out we pick the one we like often. I choose to look at the whole picture and see that there are two distinct sides as such without further documentation it is a guess as to which is the real story or what possible motives there are for the difference in them.
If you're not going to bother putting in time to read a FEW accounts of victims,
why should he bother linking dozens and dozens?
Some people have read OTHER accounts here, and expressed sympathy for the victims.
Why can't you be more like them? Specifically, like THIS poster:
To document his point. Numbers remember? Not to mention 3 is a long way from 100s
That poster specifically was responding to the accounts of 2 other posters, whom he believed
reliable, giving reliable accounts. His reaction was to try to comfort the suffering.
He had READ plenty of the accounts, at least some of which he deemed "reliable" or "trustworthy."
He didn't see the need to keep bringing them up, challenging the women who suffered,
suggesting they were less than truthful, and so on.
I wish that poster was posting on this thread.
And yet here it is years later and some continue to bring it up day after day. I still see no need for such,thats my opinion others may think different, nor do I see the need to claim guilt when there is none established. Stating an opinion or a personal testimony is one thing, wannabees who were not there beating the story to death is another. My concern is with the later, I have stated numerous times the stories are undocumentable they could be right or wrong . Until they are right guilt is not established. You want to state it's your opinion fine with me ,but opinion is not documented fact.
Correct AT A FINANCIAL LOSS or at best we break even on the cost. Time aside as there is no compensation there.
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rascal
I did indeed receive music from Dove ...lol but that was no doubt before he decided I was his *nemisis* ;) Seriously, thanks again, it was indeed a blessing....and no, much as I would LIKE to villify you Dove, I know it isn`t about financial gain for you. :)
As far as twi stuff...I think it isn`t even necessarily a monetary thing, but feeling what we had, what we learned, was of value. Of loving who and what we thought that we represented....of what we invested our hearts and souls into... our identity and self worth is somehow all tied into the ok ness of twi.
If one negates vpw or the value of what he taught...it somehow diminishes who we are and what we believe...we go from super conquerers to dupes that enabled evil to thrive.... .some times we just don`t want to be wrong about what we have dedicated lives to...it is easier to blame or accuse the people who`s experiences contradict our own then it is to re examine our entire belief system, how we view ourselves, and the universe around us.
I understand feeling that way.
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waysider
"To document his point. Numbers remember? Not to mention 3 is a long way from 100s"
Another moot point.
I never said there were hundreds.
(Though I personally believe hundreds to be an underestimate.)
What I did was to merely provide a few examples.
What you did was discount and ignore them and then try to steer the topic off course by redirecting the focus.
BTW---You seem to be avoiding my "question".
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WhiteDove
Rascal I hope you noted the laugh in my post it was an attempt at humor , that aside the door is open for any request you may have in the future. If I can help get you something that you desire I will do so. Our disagreements here have no bearing on that.
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rascal
((dove)) I did indeed, it gave me a real chuckle. Likewise, I hope you realized that mine was attempted humor as well, (I edited a bit after you posted in all seriousness and hope you see that also) :)
Thank you for the offer it is genuinely appreciated.
NOW back to our regularly schedualed skirmish ;)
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cman
even loss can be counted as gain
whido is full of it
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pond
yeah uh waysider
I already said that for myself in the post ! snip and clip but do read what is written !
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pond
Getting involved with the way was not a popular thing for many. it was a cult then too.
I was M/A i do not know about you rascal butwhen the branch leader tells you you can no longer speak to any believer go to fellowhsip or associate with anyone in the way it kind of has a way of helping one dismiss the importance of what the group was or is.
But I do not blame the way any more than I could blame pawtucket for what people say and do on this forum.
I am not defending any man or woman, i do defend truth tho. always will .
My relation with the Lord Jesus christ didnt begin with twi nor did it end with them
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excathedra
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potato
that's quite an accusation, pond.
I'm really glad you prosecuted the man who committed a crime against you, for your sake. however, I take issue with your implication that women who did not prosecute suffer from weakness of character. you gotta remember, back in the days when vpw was doing his thing, that first the girl would have had to get access to the police, then it would have been her word against his since we didn't have dna forensics. then she would have had to stand in court when the defense had free rein to shred her character, or to argue that because she agreed to have sex it was consensual, and never mind that threats were made or there was pressure brought about by awareness of consequences other's had suffered for saying NO. from the testimony I read, it seems vpw chose his victims pretty well. he chose the most submissive women, women who looked up to him, who could be easily influenced, women under duress.
rape goes unreported all the time because the victims are afraid or ashamed. that doesn't mean a rape didn't occur or that the victim can never talk about it because she (or he) didn't go to the police at the time.
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pond
potato
I do not have to remember a thing vpw and I are not to many years apart in age . my situation was many many years ago .
and I never said anyone had weakness of character ????? I said today they can name names today as in if you say vpw raped you say it ...they can but they do not .
and they can make police reports today . if the person is still alive . specificly i was referring to the snip waysider posted.. in which only the word region leader is written rather vague.
one I do not even think that is vpw he was never called that and two why not press charges now? show a police report. as I said before whether the DA would prosecute is one thing but you can always report a crime .
that is how the catholic church got busted after years of past reporting . did ya read it?
Ex!
where have you been? helllo I remember crying that day like it was the end of my life, now so many years later with grand babys and a full house i think everytime one of my children really are being to emotional rmember the day you cried about that!
I used to think they would come into my house when I was at court, maybe they did twi made me paranoid it did those days right after vpw death were a TRIP!
and greaspot is the only place i talk about it.
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Tzaia
So that's it. You see no need to continually bring it up. No one is forcing anyone to be here. If you have moved on, then perhaps the best thing you can do is find something else to entertain yourself.
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potato
my apologies, pond, if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have a hard time sorting through your posts.
it was the following portions of your posts that made me think you were implying vpw's victims had weakness of character... because they "let" it happen to them, then they didn't report it.
and as far as this:
and this
there are statutes of limitations that require sexual assault be reported within a certain time-frame. from what I remember of the catholic church rapes, the statute had not run out for the young men pressing charges.
also, perhaps you cannot call "attempted rape" "rape", but both are forms of sexual assault, which vpw most certainly committed on what appears from the evidence to be a regular basis.
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pond
you do not have a hard time sorting thru my posts you like to twist what I say .
ex said she had regrettable sex with vpw . She is the only one on this board only testimony that says his name and tells her story . she doesnt claim rape as far as I hear it she claims eeeewww and I do not blame her .
yes i read of certain titles (the one waysider snip in this post ) that some woman say they had sex with, i see no one eles name vpw. .
you say that but Show me just one other please.
sexual misconduct is not rape nor is it child molestation . just because many years after having sex with a guy you decide that was astupid idea and I was used as a pawn doesnt make it illegal.
or even the next day.
wrong maybe but not illegal.
just one that names vpw as a man who raped them .
can you do that?
clear enough ?
never the less
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pond
you do not have a hard time sorting thru my posts you like to twist what I say .
ex said she had regrettable sex with vpw . She is the only one on this board only testimony that says his name and tells her story . she doesnt claim rape as far as I hear it she claims eeeewww and I do not blame her . she was not a minor child nor was she attacked and forced by her account.
yes i read of certain titles (the one waysider snip in this post ) that some woman say they had sex with, i see no one eles name vpw. . or use any names at all. the man is dead good point so why not say his name clearly?
you say "regular bases" but Show me just one other please.
sexual misconduct is not rape nor is it child molestation . just because many years after having sex with a guy you decide that was astupid idea and I was used as a pawn doesnt make it illegal.
or even the next day.
wrong maybe but not illegal.
just one that names vpw as a man who raped them .
can you do that?
clear enough ?
never the less
you do not have a hard time sorting thru my posts you like to twist what I say .
ex said she had regrettable sex with vpw . She is the only one on this board only testimony that says his name and tells her story . she doesnt claim rape as far as I hear it she claims eeeewww and I do not blame her . she was not a minor child nor was she attacked and forced by her account.
yes i read of certain titles (the one waysider snip in this post ) that some woman say they had sex with, i see no one eles name vpw. . or use any names at all. the man is dead good point so why not say his name clearly?
you say "regular bases" but Show me just one other please.
sexual misconduct is not rape nor is it child molestation . just because many years after having sex with a guy you decide that was astupid idea and I was used as a pawn doesnt make it illegal.
or even the next day.
wrong maybe but not illegal.
just one that names vpw as a man who raped them .
can you do that?
clear enough ?
never the less
yeah ok I tried to edit some lol.
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waysider
When you slip a drug into someones drink and then have sex with them while they are incapacitated, that is rape.
It may not be rape in the same sense that many people use to define rape, (ie: forced physical violence that culminates in a sex act.) but it is, by legal definition, rape. Unwanted sex initiated trough coercion or psychological manipulation can also be sometimes defined as rape. Acting as a go-between to supply someone with sex partners is "pandering". It's also illegal. Exposing minors to pornography or sexually explicit materials is a crime. There are examples of that here and they name VPW. Supplying minors with alcohol is a crime in Ohio. There are examples of that here and they name VPW. Likewise, transporting a person across state lines for the purpose of "debauchery" is a federal crime. It is a violation of The Mann Act and does not require that a rape take place. There are examples of transporting for debauchery here on GSC and they name VPW.
Here is an interesting link.
http://www.yoursexhealth.org/html/details.php?det=1,0,0
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pond
I read your snip waysider so were does it say it was vpw?
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