Me and this guy I know from work, he's an electrician actually, one of our vendors, were discusing this topic last week. He went to bible college for three years in his younger days, and he was telling me how he never hears any preachers teach on this. That having a bad thought isn't a sin, but entertaining a bad thought is what leads to sin. He emailed me the scripture, James, first chapter, verses 13-15, and I read it, and googled it, and found this interesting website. It's concise and to the point and something I think we all need to be reminded of. Here is the link
Straight out of the Renewed Mind class as well as Orientalisms.
This is dangerous stuff when misapplied.
This was used extensively in The Way to discourage people from speaking out about things they saw that didn't measure up. If you saw something you knew was wrong, YOU were the one who was at fault for not renewing your mind and allowing the adversary to trick you into thinking evil of your brother or sister. Admitting you had negative thoughts was the same as admitting spiritual weakness. That's why, in Fellow Laborers, it was imperative to NEVER discuss any doubts you had about the way the program was being run with anyone you didn't trust completely.
While I agree that it's not healthy to spend one's time dwelling on "negatives", sometimes facing the negatives head on is exactly what needs to be done.
My problem is I focus WAY too much on negative stuff. I start out my day with the "daily bad news" watch the news, watch too many crime shows for my own good etc. I found this website refreshing with verses that remind you to try to focus on the good things. Something I really need to train my mind to do. There is a reason God tells us not to focus on the negative, it brings us down! It wears me down personally. Bad news sells though, and it's easy to get addicted to. At least that's how it is for me anyway, I'm ashamed to admit.
My problem is I focus WAY too much on negative stuff. I start out my day with the "daily bad news" watch the news, watch too many crime shows for my own good etc. I found this website refreshing with verses that remind you to try to focus on the good things. Something I really need to train my mind to do. There is a reason God tells us not to focus on the negative, it brings us down! It wears me down personally. Bad news sells though, and it's easy to get addicted to. At least that's how it is for me anyway, I'm ashamed to admit.
The cited link is not about watching the news or crime shows. It's about hiding your head in the sand and refusing to deal with your thoughts honestly and openly. There's a fine line between focusing excessively on negatives and facing reality. Only you can say where that line is.
Here's an excerpt from the link:
Do not masturbate.
If you masturbate, you probably entertain sinful fantasies at the same time. Although masturbation is not explicitly forbidden in the Scriptures, the thoughts that usually accompany it are. Do not escape into a fantasy life. Determine that, with God’s help, you will stop.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matthew 5:28).
Sometimes people have orgasms in their sleep. If that happens to you, don't feel condemned. However, if you have sexually immoral dreams, ask God to replace them with pure dreams.
This is contrary to the way a normal healthy body works.
How do you counsel a normal teenager with such advise?
You simply can't tell them that their normal, healthy "sex dreams" are immoral and wrong. (but don't feel condemned) Nor should you be telling them to repress them in favor of "pure dreams".
And I don't mean to seem as though I've singled this one item out as the focal point.
It's not. It's just exemplifies the type of mind set this article is advocating.
The point I'm making is that, while it's good advise to avoid dwelling on life's negatives, (Medical science is filled with studies of how worry and stress can adversely affect your health) It's not good advise to live in a world of self delusion.
This link seems to be suggesting the adherence of the same kind of self delusion that left us all so vulnerable to blind obedience and control by people who didn't have our best interests at heart when we were in TWI.
I knew that masturbation thing was going to catch somebody's attention. LOL. :) Actually I sort of understand what you are saying waysider. But I'm a natural negative thinker, and this article is really helping me understand how in MY case, my thinking is just not healthy for me. I'm not going to go into any personal details but this article hit on a couple of things in my life that need straightening out, and I think some of the scripture quoted here is just what the doctor ordered for me.
From my perspective, everyone has a right and a responsibility to decide what their head should be into or not into. That seems indicative of the human condition, not just the Christian condition.
For those of us who have been abused with the same principles that this sight seems to be setting forth, I can understand why they wouldn't like it.
But even if I hadn't have faced this type of abuse before, I don't think that I would be drawn to it.
I don't think it's for me.
But I won't say that it is not for anyone.
But experience seems to councel me that if these folks are up to no good, that they will not admit it.
And if their ideas don't help, or actually hurt folks it is still not an easy thing to deal with.
Dear Rottiegrrrl,
I understand where you say that you are coming from though. Sometimes I just wanna say YUCK too.
Well, you guys have helped me a bit here. It's a reminder to look at the scripture, and not personal spins on things. Though I still have to say I like this piece the guy did on it. For me, anyway. Isn't there anyone out there who thinks this website has some cool thoughts? I would love to hear WordWolf's take on this. Maybe I will PM him.
I find it more than a little remarkable that the religiously disposed are seemingly so threatened by THOUGHT. And it's not just this poor gimp. Since people first huddled together to beseech some unseen force to improve their lives, it seems thinking was always high on the list of things that should be curtailed. Just accept, don't think about it. Sure, it doesn't make any sense, but that's what GOD wants us to do!
And then, of course, the next thing to get all freaked out about is the way your body naturally reacts. You got a little wood from looking at the girl's legs across the room? Oh boy! You're BAAAAAD! Those are IMPURE thoughts!.
Oh gawd, don't you ever get tired of the nonsense?
Hey, here's an idea! How about if something doesn't make any goddam sense, we can reject it and think about something that DOES? Works for me. And I haven't killed anybody or harbored any forbidden wood in a loooong time...
Everything he's saying is basically correct, in light of what Jesus taught people, what's recorded in the gospels. His emphasis was on what a person thinks and how they really feel in their hearts. That message was simple - concentrate on your inner relationship with God and others and let the outer one you act out reflect it - thoughtfully and with care.
Jesus drove a hard bargain in this category and described adultery as basic as looking at another with that desire, without even acting on it. The betrayal occurs in the mind and heart the way He taught it. And that makes sense. In fact, the whole concept of "sin", both as a systemic condition and as singluar instances or actions taken makes sense in light of how Jesus taught about it, I think.
There's really no caveat of condition IMO that preempts the idea of taking responsiblity for one's own thoughts - they're ours and we owe it to ourselves to give them some thoughtful consideration, methinks. To literally think about what we think about, and how we affect ourselves, never mind everyone else and how they affect us. But that's not a bad idea either.
In that article he doesn't emphasize "negative" thoughts, he's talking about pure versus impure, wholesome as opposed to destructive. I don't see the downside in that Rottiegrrl.
The interaction we have with other people regarding this kind of direction can be a pain in the asz, that's for sure. Everyone's more than ready to tell you what's wrong with you, with what you do, how you act and dress and how you feel based on the expression on your face. A very little bit of that goes a really long way.
I read a lot of the news all the time. Hey, it's a fugged up world. I get that. I still want to know what's going on. I just do my best to sort through it all and try to keep moving in a positive direciton that's helpful and good. I'm not good, I'm a putz. But I try, what else can I do?
Another aspect of this subject that deserves consideration is the existence of various pathologies, such as clinical depression. In The Way, we were given the example of a glassful of muddy water. Supposedly, as you introduce clear water into a glass of cloudy solution, it will incrementally displace the muddy water until you eventually have a glass of clear water. It's not entirely untrue, of course, but much too broad an approach for many situations. In Way World, one size fits all. But, life's problems often require complex solutions. People who have chemical imbalances are simply not going to recover by using only the "muddy glass of water" technique. What about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Is it a chemical imbalance? Current information seems to suggest there may be a link.
* Concern with order, symmetry (balance) and exactness
* Worry that a task has been done poorly, even when the person knows this is not true
* Fear of thinking evil or sinful thoughts
* Thinking about certain sounds, images, words or numbers all the time
* Need for constant reassurance
* Fear of harming a family member or friend
People who suffer from OCD are probably not going to respond satisfactorily from the "good thought in/bad thought out" system by itself.
Encouraging someone to practice this method alone, when what they really need is professional intervention, is doing them and those around them a great disservice.
I appreciate all the responses, but I still appreciate the website, it's doing me a world of good. socks: I agree whole-heartedly with your post! WordWolf promised he'd check in, in a couple of days, it will be interesting to see his take on this! :)
geisha: I don't read the KJV anymore, right now I'm reading the New Living Translation online. The beauty of the internet is you can choose from many different versions. I love it. ! :)
I am glad you have a version that you like!! I use the HCSB version and I love it too. Another thing that is nice to have is a good Devotional. Faith's Checkbook, Charles Spurgeon is a nice one. It is for each day of the year. One small page, but a wonderful way to start the day. Your mind tends to mull over what you have read. . . throughout the day.
I carry it with me.
Waysider made a good point. If and that is just IF, we worry so much about sinful thoughts. . . or having them. . . it CAN become a problem. Sometimes it can lead to anxiety and guilt. Decidely bad things!! :)
The bible says to dwell on whatsoever things are true, honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious,
if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Start your day there??
. . . . Then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
God doesn't convict us harshly. The Holy Spirit is gentle and kind when He convicts us of our sins. It is a peaceful, soft reminder when we start to stray. So tender. Guilt comes from another place.
We have peace with God. . . the sacrifice was big enough. If we don't have that peace, we need to ask God about it. Too much worry over things is not very peaceful.
But, you seem to have a good handle on it. Just took me awhile I guess. I was so conditioned to obey the word. . . I forgot it is actually God I am to obey. I never really got the connection quite clear in TWI. :)
Sin is less of an issue when I am dwelling on Him throughout the day, praying, pondering, wondering and in wonder LOL. . . . He is a good shepherd. . . . keeps me straight.
Glad you like this site. . . . I am happy it helps you.
I think if each individual can not control their own thoughts what happens next?
what or who does then?
waysider speaks about mental illness being a issue well I think many of these very real problems begin with not being able to redirect their thoughts even as a child never learning how to self calm find peace in choas etc.. no not blaming the parents but the chemical imbalace has to come from some where and it isnt a birth defect as if a person has the inability to manufacotr the chemicals it is the imbalance is shown after most often many years of issues within the mind.
the cause and effect is not straight forward if you will.
but anywyas.
rottie I tried to teach my own children this concept even from infants to learn how to find peace even amoung discomofrt because at the end of the day all we have many times in stress is our own thinking.
and it can be learned at any time in life with more work within.
meditation is another source of this.
to erase the mind of stress and worry is often used as a healer medications are used to help this very process .
for me I am at times very overwhelmed with family issues .. and i do not forget but i "let it all go" I do not abandon the folks involved but i do let go of the stress their problems may have on my peace.
I noticed with anxiety some can not stop the racing in the head of negative thoughts, this is often from issues that are left undelt with for many years.
peole refuse to deal with issues then one day realize they can no longer within serious anxiety.
drugs and alcohol help this process of torment last to a point the problems are overwhelming.
such is the case with depression etc.
but every day stuff i HAVE to let go.
what eles is there.
If I can do something I try but if the attempt at a solution makes for more worry I stop rethink the situation and then try again when IM calm.
all the while in prayer and waiting for the very hope of Christs return.
One thing that I like about this guy is that he seems to be coming from a place where he is fairly honest about his own struggles in these categories. That is always a good sign IMO.
I think that even though there is plenty of scripture about guarding our thoughts, often times these issues just cannot be put into a test tube and analyzed, the heart being such a deceptive thing and all.
A minister like this guy IMO has something to give if he's being honest about his sins and his victories too. But in cases where other issues, perhaps unseen ones like Waysider is talking about can turn things that worked for this guy into harmful ideas if they are wrongfully applied to a person whose biggest needs lie in other categories
One of the errors in this type of teaching that I've seen is that sometimes the teacher is going to try to shove a square peg into a round whole. The teaching and the student don't mesh in other words. Stress, anxiety, depression, etc. can be the result of a bad fit. All the more reason to be prayerful, meek, and diligent when trying to help folks with their problems IMO.
But I am really glad that you like where these things are taking you. I hope that it goes well for you. If you start feeling like it is not working for your benefit any more I'm certain that you have many Greasespotters who are more than willing to help.
I think if each individual can not control their own thoughts what happens next?
what or who does then?
waysider speaks about mental illness being a issue well I think many of these very real problems begin with not being able to redirect their thoughts even as a child never learning how to self calm find peace in chaos etc.. no not blaming the parents but the chemical imbalance has to come from some where and it isn't a birth defect as if a person has the inability to manufacture the chemicals it is the imbalance is shown after most often many years of issues within the mind.
the cause and effect is not straight forward if you will.
Are you suggesting that people cause themselves to suffer from depression by virtue of uncontrolled thoughts?
Certainly it's true that people can become depressed when they find themselves in overwhelming circumstances. This is called "situational depression". However, when the offending situation is removed, the depression will usually dissipate. On the other hand, there are people who suffer from depression that doesn't seem to be related to any specific situation or conditions. There is strong evidence that such people may have a genetic disposition to the condition. It's a disease that lies below the surface, waiting to rear its head. Here's an analogy that may help. Suppose you get chickenpox as a child. Chickenpox is caused by a virus. In due time, you recover completely from the chickenpox but the virus that caused it remains in your body. It goes into a dormant state. Later in life, for some unknown reason, that virus may decide to awaken and manifest itself as shingles. Your mental state may indeed adversely contribute to your susceptibility. It is known that stress can act as a trigger for shingles. Now, the analogy that I'm drawing here is that some people may be genetically predisposed to developing clinical depression just as a person who has had chickenpox is predisposed to developing shingles. With depression, this is especially true if the two generations before them were afflicted with it. That doesn't necessarily mean it will absolutely affect them. However, if certain conditions present themselves, the disease may decide to rear its ugly head. No one is really sure what those conditions are but they seem to be directly related to certain chemical imbalances in the brain. Perhaps stress serves to intensify those imbalances. But the point is, similar to the way a dormant virus causes shingles, the conditions that predispose a person to depression may also be lying dormant and, in fact, may already be present at birth.
Another aspect of this subject that deserves consideration is the existence of various pathologies, such as clinical depression. In The Way, we were given the example of a glassful of muddy water. Supposedly, as you introduce clear water into a glass of cloudy solution, it will incrementally displace the muddy water until you eventually have a glass of clear water. It's not entirely untrue, of course, but much too broad an approach for many situations.
Never heard that one waysider, but it does sound like some homespun "truth" that would come out of the mouth of a well meaning, albeit deluded Wayfer.
That example is in fact not true. And never one to avoid a pun, it waters down the idea of a "new birth". Introducing "clear' or clean water into dirty water never cleans it up, it dilutes the parts per of the particles in it. They don't go away, the water just looks cleaner. I guess.
The bible's description of new birth isn't a mixture. It's a new birth, and "newness" of life.
The article makes some sound points because it presents what reads like an unreasonable proposition in a realistic way. We can put forth the effort and God can bless but we know that it isn't built into this life to have a controlled and constantly maintained "perfection" in everything we think and do. As you state everyone is born with tendencies, predispositions, genetics that make them who they are and that isn't "perfect".
Striving for this "perfection" is misunderstood I think, as being right, knowing everything about "the truth" and making no errors or mistakes in what we do. I don't see that in the bible's message at all, definitely not what Christ taught.
The ongoing perfect effort is to attempt to live life with what we've been given, knowing that it's a learn-as-we-go deal. This is illustrated in the proverb of Jesus in Luke 7 - those who have a lot to be forgiven for appreciate the burden that's removed in forgiveness - a lot. If only a little, there's little to appreciate.
Whether big or small, "all fall short". Seeing ourselves for who and what we really are, in an ongoing effort, causes us to appreciate the journey of learning we're on, and appreciate both God and ourselves in that effort.
It's "healthy' to recognize where we need to improve and better ourselves and it's possible to enjoy that process as we go, despite it's difficulties. We know we're trying, we know we're giving it a shot. There's nothing worse than misguided judgement of our efforts by others who would do better to spend their time doing their own work and if they had the time to spend, helpiing others along the way.
I don't have a lot of faith in mankind's ability to progress as a whole, very far or for very long. But I can't deny that if we don't try, at whatever level's we choose, we'll only fall further back into the black hole that's waiting. So, we persist. :)
The cause and effect of a chemical imbalance is very unclear. i have 7 brothers and sisters all have extremely high blood pressure and cholesteral sky high one would think this is a intese family history two had strokes in their forties all on major meds for it...
I have none of it NONE.
and im a pig I eat what I what when i want and have had a very very stressful life.
i believe what my MD says alot of illness is in your mind and how you think about life in gerneral.
Im not slapping a depressed person
the idea pf treat ment for the mind is a vast mysterious zone it is not exact science by far.
the issue is people refuse to change life styles or habits they have had.
geisha: A good devotional is a wonderful idea. And I know what you mean about obeying God and not getting hung up on scripture and teachings and people's spins. Boy am I still working on that. I used to suffer terribly from lack of confidence in the Way and offshoot I attended for awhile because I thought I was spiritually inept especially when it came to the...ugh..manifestations. sigh. How silly that was. I was a mess and all I cared about was that.
jeff, yeah I liked this guys honesty too. Especially he was pointing out that a thought isn't a sin, it's when it starts to take over your mind that was dangerous. As I said, I'm not going to get into any personal stuff here, but I know EXACTLY what that means. And thoughts lead to actions. To the severe point: look at violent pornography, or child pornography, or ANY porn. What good can that lead to fill one's head with that crap? Why people get addicted to that at all is something totally different, probably based on a variety of things.
socks and pond you both made excellent points. I think we are pretty much on the same page as how we perceived this article. Thanks.
Seems like a reasonable article to me. The strength of some of the objections to it comes quite possibly from some semblance to the Renewed Mind class or similar.
What were we taught? You can't stop a bird roosting in a tree but you can stop it nesting? Something like that?
When we continually think negatives (or even "worldly" thoughts), that's what we come to expect. And sometimes we act on that expectation. It becomes normal.
It seems easy to think about doing something mean to someone we don't like. Picking a fight with a colleague at work that we don't particularly like. Or fancying someone we shouldn't get close to (perhaps because married). Watching violent movies on TV. Then that sort of behavior becomes "normal".
It seems less easy to think about doing something nice to someone - especially someone we don't like. Instead of blessing them, we look for ways to do the opposite. We don't remember our colleague's kindness, just a hasty remark at a busy time. We don't remember how kind our spouse/partner is, and how attractive we thought he/she was; we chase a fantasy. We don't watch movies about generosity in time of need, we look at what causes the need - war, or what have you.
It's just as easy to "practice" doing nice things as doing unpleasant things.
This is a good way to guard one's thoughts:
Philippians 4:8 [Holman Standard version]
Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable--if there is any moral excellence and if there is any praise--dwell on these things
It's an abuse to stamp on genuine concerns (like various TWI programs or behavior) in the name of "not thinking evil" - and that's not what "guarding one's thoughts" is about. The ones stamping on genuine concerns are in fact the ones thinking evil.
Oh, and it's not "head in the sand" either. Guarding one's thoughts doesn't mean ignoring what's going on all around, it means thinking about them realistically, and remembering God's goodness at the same time. He has a solution but it won't necessarily be instant. Guard one's thoughts to take the long view of His goodness and provision.
Seems like a reasonable article to me. The strength of some of the objections to it comes quite possibly from some semblance to the Renewed Mind class or similar.
What were we taught? You can't stop a bird roosting in a tree but you can stop it nesting? Something like that?
When we continually think negatives (or even "worldly" thoughts), that's what we come to expect. And sometimes we act on that expectation. It becomes normal.
I remember a variation of that saying, probably not in the RM class: You can't stop a dog from walking on your lawn but you can stop it from taking a dump there!
I was just wondering why this guy would start out by indulging in fantasy about sin? If being filled with the Holy Spirit and built up in faith we gain the very attributes of The Holy Spirit. . . what He works into our lives. . . . love, joy, peace. . . . why would sin be fantasy worthy?
It becomes abhorent to us. . . . no? It is abhorent to God.
This is why I can see Waysider's point. Without being filled with something else, where loving your neighbor becomes a desire and is a result of loving God. . . . and being filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . trying to control your mind and thoughts can become a pathology. An obsession or an anxiety.
I think this is an odd premise to begin with. . . since I didn't act on it. . . I dreamed about doing it? Kinda a void there, much like TWI. Legalistic. Mind control.
The desire for the things of God should be greater and greater in our lives, the desire for sin less. It should be the things things that are pure, just, and good, we think on or dream of. . . . no?
That is what made me uncomfortable I think. :)
God fills us with better things to concern ourselves with. . . .
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waysider
Straight out of the Renewed Mind class as well as Orientalisms.
This is dangerous stuff when misapplied.
This was used extensively in The Way to discourage people from speaking out about things they saw that didn't measure up. If you saw something you knew was wrong, YOU were the one who was at fault for not renewing your mind and allowing the adversary to trick you into thinking evil of your brother or sister. Admitting you had negative thoughts was the same as admitting spiritual weakness. That's why, in Fellow Laborers, it was imperative to NEVER discuss any doubts you had about the way the program was being run with anyone you didn't trust completely.
While I agree that it's not healthy to spend one's time dwelling on "negatives", sometimes facing the negatives head on is exactly what needs to be done.
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RottieGrrrl
My problem is I focus WAY too much on negative stuff. I start out my day with the "daily bad news" watch the news, watch too many crime shows for my own good etc. I found this website refreshing with verses that remind you to try to focus on the good things. Something I really need to train my mind to do. There is a reason God tells us not to focus on the negative, it brings us down! It wears me down personally. Bad news sells though, and it's easy to get addicted to. At least that's how it is for me anyway, I'm ashamed to admit.
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waysider
The cited link is not about watching the news or crime shows. It's about hiding your head in the sand and refusing to deal with your thoughts honestly and openly. There's a fine line between focusing excessively on negatives and facing reality. Only you can say where that line is.
Here's an excerpt from the link:
Do not masturbate.
If you masturbate, you probably entertain sinful fantasies at the same time. Although masturbation is not explicitly forbidden in the Scriptures, the thoughts that usually accompany it are. Do not escape into a fantasy life. Determine that, with God’s help, you will stop.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matthew 5:28).
Sometimes people have orgasms in their sleep. If that happens to you, don't feel condemned. However, if you have sexually immoral dreams, ask God to replace them with pure dreams.
This is contrary to the way a normal healthy body works.
How do you counsel a normal teenager with such advise?
You simply can't tell them that their normal, healthy "sex dreams" are immoral and wrong. (but don't feel condemned) Nor should you be telling them to repress them in favor of "pure dreams".
And I don't mean to seem as though I've singled this one item out as the focal point.
It's not. It's just exemplifies the type of mind set this article is advocating.
The point I'm making is that, while it's good advise to avoid dwelling on life's negatives, (Medical science is filled with studies of how worry and stress can adversely affect your health) It's not good advise to live in a world of self delusion.
This link seems to be suggesting the adherence of the same kind of self delusion that left us all so vulnerable to blind obedience and control by people who didn't have our best interests at heart when we were in TWI.
But I could be wrong---That's just my opinion.
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RottieGrrrl
I knew that masturbation thing was going to catch somebody's attention. LOL. :) Actually I sort of understand what you are saying waysider. But I'm a natural negative thinker, and this article is really helping me understand how in MY case, my thinking is just not healthy for me. I'm not going to go into any personal details but this article hit on a couple of things in my life that need straightening out, and I think some of the scripture quoted here is just what the doctor ordered for me.
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JeffSjo
From my perspective, everyone has a right and a responsibility to decide what their head should be into or not into. That seems indicative of the human condition, not just the Christian condition.
For those of us who have been abused with the same principles that this sight seems to be setting forth, I can understand why they wouldn't like it.
But even if I hadn't have faced this type of abuse before, I don't think that I would be drawn to it.
I don't think it's for me.
But I won't say that it is not for anyone.
But experience seems to councel me that if these folks are up to no good, that they will not admit it.
And if their ideas don't help, or actually hurt folks it is still not an easy thing to deal with.
Dear Rottiegrrrl,
I understand where you say that you are coming from though. Sometimes I just wanna say YUCK too.
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RottieGrrrl
Well, you guys have helped me a bit here. It's a reminder to look at the scripture, and not personal spins on things. Though I still have to say I like this piece the guy did on it. For me, anyway. Isn't there anyone out there who thinks this website has some cool thoughts? I would love to hear WordWolf's take on this. Maybe I will PM him.
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geisha779
Scripture actually gives arguments against anxiety and worry. This site seems to put some back in. . . . at least for me. . . but, who am I?
Put me on edge though.
Scripture should free you up . . . . I am like you a news junkie. I just shut the TV off. Actually we don't watch it anymore (except baseball)
Read your bible. . . for the sheer pleasure of it. The enjoyment. Read a different version than KJV and relax.
God is good.
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cman
what's so many afraid of anyway?
their own thoughts....
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George Aar
I find it more than a little remarkable that the religiously disposed are seemingly so threatened by THOUGHT. And it's not just this poor gimp. Since people first huddled together to beseech some unseen force to improve their lives, it seems thinking was always high on the list of things that should be curtailed. Just accept, don't think about it. Sure, it doesn't make any sense, but that's what GOD wants us to do!
And then, of course, the next thing to get all freaked out about is the way your body naturally reacts. You got a little wood from looking at the girl's legs across the room? Oh boy! You're BAAAAAD! Those are IMPURE thoughts!.
Oh gawd, don't you ever get tired of the nonsense?
Hey, here's an idea! How about if something doesn't make any goddam sense, we can reject it and think about something that DOES? Works for me. And I haven't killed anybody or harbored any forbidden wood in a loooong time...
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socks
Everything he's saying is basically correct, in light of what Jesus taught people, what's recorded in the gospels. His emphasis was on what a person thinks and how they really feel in their hearts. That message was simple - concentrate on your inner relationship with God and others and let the outer one you act out reflect it - thoughtfully and with care.
Jesus drove a hard bargain in this category and described adultery as basic as looking at another with that desire, without even acting on it. The betrayal occurs in the mind and heart the way He taught it. And that makes sense. In fact, the whole concept of "sin", both as a systemic condition and as singluar instances or actions taken makes sense in light of how Jesus taught about it, I think.
There's really no caveat of condition IMO that preempts the idea of taking responsiblity for one's own thoughts - they're ours and we owe it to ourselves to give them some thoughtful consideration, methinks. To literally think about what we think about, and how we affect ourselves, never mind everyone else and how they affect us. But that's not a bad idea either.
In that article he doesn't emphasize "negative" thoughts, he's talking about pure versus impure, wholesome as opposed to destructive. I don't see the downside in that Rottiegrrl.
The interaction we have with other people regarding this kind of direction can be a pain in the asz, that's for sure. Everyone's more than ready to tell you what's wrong with you, with what you do, how you act and dress and how you feel based on the expression on your face. A very little bit of that goes a really long way.
I read a lot of the news all the time. Hey, it's a fugged up world. I get that. I still want to know what's going on. I just do my best to sort through it all and try to keep moving in a positive direciton that's helpful and good. I'm not good, I'm a putz. But I try, what else can I do?
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cman
A matter of personal conditioning.
Basically, with purpose and meaning.
Not a matter of stress but of practice.
Determination is needed. From a source.
Which must be inside to be real and honest.
Usually 2 steps forward and one back with thoughts.
But still progress.
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cman
Being afraid of thinking wrong is a poor way to live.
Facing thoughts without fear and dealing with them.
Persistent ones, you know, searching them out.
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waysider
Another aspect of this subject that deserves consideration is the existence of various pathologies, such as clinical depression. In The Way, we were given the example of a glassful of muddy water. Supposedly, as you introduce clear water into a glass of cloudy solution, it will incrementally displace the muddy water until you eventually have a glass of clear water. It's not entirely untrue, of course, but much too broad an approach for many situations. In Way World, one size fits all. But, life's problems often require complex solutions. People who have chemical imbalances are simply not going to recover by using only the "muddy glass of water" technique. What about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Is it a chemical imbalance? Current information seems to suggest there may be a link.
http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/ho...nxiety/133.html
What are some common obsessions?
The following are some common obsessions:
* Fear of dirt or germs
* Disgust with bodily waste or fluids
* Concern with order, symmetry (balance) and exactness
* Worry that a task has been done poorly, even when the person knows this is not true
* Fear of thinking evil or sinful thoughts
* Thinking about certain sounds, images, words or numbers all the time
* Need for constant reassurance
* Fear of harming a family member or friend
People who suffer from OCD are probably not going to respond satisfactorily from the "good thought in/bad thought out" system by itself.
Encouraging someone to practice this method alone, when what they really need is professional intervention, is doing them and those around them a great disservice.
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RottieGrrrl
I appreciate all the responses, but I still appreciate the website, it's doing me a world of good. socks: I agree whole-heartedly with your post! WordWolf promised he'd check in, in a couple of days, it will be interesting to see his take on this! :)
geisha: I don't read the KJV anymore, right now I'm reading the New Living Translation online. The beauty of the internet is you can choose from many different versions. I love it. ! :)
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geisha779
I am glad you have a version that you like!! I use the HCSB version and I love it too. Another thing that is nice to have is a good Devotional. Faith's Checkbook, Charles Spurgeon is a nice one. It is for each day of the year. One small page, but a wonderful way to start the day. Your mind tends to mull over what you have read. . . throughout the day.
I carry it with me.
Waysider made a good point. If and that is just IF, we worry so much about sinful thoughts. . . or having them. . . it CAN become a problem. Sometimes it can lead to anxiety and guilt. Decidely bad things!! :)
The bible says to dwell on whatsoever things are true, honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious,
if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Start your day there??
. . . . Then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
God doesn't convict us harshly. The Holy Spirit is gentle and kind when He convicts us of our sins. It is a peaceful, soft reminder when we start to stray. So tender. Guilt comes from another place.
We have peace with God. . . the sacrifice was big enough. If we don't have that peace, we need to ask God about it. Too much worry over things is not very peaceful.
But, you seem to have a good handle on it. Just took me awhile I guess. I was so conditioned to obey the word. . . I forgot it is actually God I am to obey. I never really got the connection quite clear in TWI. :)
Sin is less of an issue when I am dwelling on Him throughout the day, praying, pondering, wondering and in wonder LOL. . . . He is a good shepherd. . . . keeps me straight.
Glad you like this site. . . . I am happy it helps you.
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pond
I think if each individual can not control their own thoughts what happens next?
what or who does then?
waysider speaks about mental illness being a issue well I think many of these very real problems begin with not being able to redirect their thoughts even as a child never learning how to self calm find peace in choas etc.. no not blaming the parents but the chemical imbalace has to come from some where and it isnt a birth defect as if a person has the inability to manufacotr the chemicals it is the imbalance is shown after most often many years of issues within the mind.
the cause and effect is not straight forward if you will.
but anywyas.
rottie I tried to teach my own children this concept even from infants to learn how to find peace even amoung discomofrt because at the end of the day all we have many times in stress is our own thinking.
and it can be learned at any time in life with more work within.
meditation is another source of this.
to erase the mind of stress and worry is often used as a healer medications are used to help this very process .
for me I am at times very overwhelmed with family issues .. and i do not forget but i "let it all go" I do not abandon the folks involved but i do let go of the stress their problems may have on my peace.
I noticed with anxiety some can not stop the racing in the head of negative thoughts, this is often from issues that are left undelt with for many years.
peole refuse to deal with issues then one day realize they can no longer within serious anxiety.
drugs and alcohol help this process of torment last to a point the problems are overwhelming.
such is the case with depression etc.
but every day stuff i HAVE to let go.
what eles is there.
If I can do something I try but if the attempt at a solution makes for more worry I stop rethink the situation and then try again when IM calm.
all the while in prayer and waiting for the very hope of Christs return.
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JeffSjo
Dear Rottiegrrrl,
One thing that I like about this guy is that he seems to be coming from a place where he is fairly honest about his own struggles in these categories. That is always a good sign IMO.
I think that even though there is plenty of scripture about guarding our thoughts, often times these issues just cannot be put into a test tube and analyzed, the heart being such a deceptive thing and all.
A minister like this guy IMO has something to give if he's being honest about his sins and his victories too. But in cases where other issues, perhaps unseen ones like Waysider is talking about can turn things that worked for this guy into harmful ideas if they are wrongfully applied to a person whose biggest needs lie in other categories
One of the errors in this type of teaching that I've seen is that sometimes the teacher is going to try to shove a square peg into a round whole. The teaching and the student don't mesh in other words. Stress, anxiety, depression, etc. can be the result of a bad fit. All the more reason to be prayerful, meek, and diligent when trying to help folks with their problems IMO.
But I am really glad that you like where these things are taking you. I hope that it goes well for you. If you start feeling like it is not working for your benefit any more I'm certain that you have many Greasespotters who are more than willing to help.
PEACE,
JEFF
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waysider
Pond
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this:
I think if each individual can not control their own thoughts what happens next?
what or who does then?
waysider speaks about mental illness being a issue well I think many of these very real problems begin with not being able to redirect their thoughts even as a child never learning how to self calm find peace in chaos etc.. no not blaming the parents but the chemical imbalance has to come from some where and it isn't a birth defect as if a person has the inability to manufacture the chemicals it is the imbalance is shown after most often many years of issues within the mind.
the cause and effect is not straight forward if you will.
Are you suggesting that people cause themselves to suffer from depression by virtue of uncontrolled thoughts?
Certainly it's true that people can become depressed when they find themselves in overwhelming circumstances. This is called "situational depression". However, when the offending situation is removed, the depression will usually dissipate. On the other hand, there are people who suffer from depression that doesn't seem to be related to any specific situation or conditions. There is strong evidence that such people may have a genetic disposition to the condition. It's a disease that lies below the surface, waiting to rear its head. Here's an analogy that may help. Suppose you get chickenpox as a child. Chickenpox is caused by a virus. In due time, you recover completely from the chickenpox but the virus that caused it remains in your body. It goes into a dormant state. Later in life, for some unknown reason, that virus may decide to awaken and manifest itself as shingles. Your mental state may indeed adversely contribute to your susceptibility. It is known that stress can act as a trigger for shingles. Now, the analogy that I'm drawing here is that some people may be genetically predisposed to developing clinical depression just as a person who has had chickenpox is predisposed to developing shingles. With depression, this is especially true if the two generations before them were afflicted with it. That doesn't necessarily mean it will absolutely affect them. However, if certain conditions present themselves, the disease may decide to rear its ugly head. No one is really sure what those conditions are but they seem to be directly related to certain chemical imbalances in the brain. Perhaps stress serves to intensify those imbalances. But the point is, similar to the way a dormant virus causes shingles, the conditions that predispose a person to depression may also be lying dormant and, in fact, may already be present at birth.
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socks
Never heard that one waysider, but it does sound like some homespun "truth" that would come out of the mouth of a well meaning, albeit deluded Wayfer.
That example is in fact not true. And never one to avoid a pun, it waters down the idea of a "new birth". Introducing "clear' or clean water into dirty water never cleans it up, it dilutes the parts per of the particles in it. They don't go away, the water just looks cleaner. I guess.
The bible's description of new birth isn't a mixture. It's a new birth, and "newness" of life.
The article makes some sound points because it presents what reads like an unreasonable proposition in a realistic way. We can put forth the effort and God can bless but we know that it isn't built into this life to have a controlled and constantly maintained "perfection" in everything we think and do. As you state everyone is born with tendencies, predispositions, genetics that make them who they are and that isn't "perfect".
Striving for this "perfection" is misunderstood I think, as being right, knowing everything about "the truth" and making no errors or mistakes in what we do. I don't see that in the bible's message at all, definitely not what Christ taught.
The ongoing perfect effort is to attempt to live life with what we've been given, knowing that it's a learn-as-we-go deal. This is illustrated in the proverb of Jesus in Luke 7 - those who have a lot to be forgiven for appreciate the burden that's removed in forgiveness - a lot. If only a little, there's little to appreciate.
Whether big or small, "all fall short". Seeing ourselves for who and what we really are, in an ongoing effort, causes us to appreciate the journey of learning we're on, and appreciate both God and ourselves in that effort.
It's "healthy' to recognize where we need to improve and better ourselves and it's possible to enjoy that process as we go, despite it's difficulties. We know we're trying, we know we're giving it a shot. There's nothing worse than misguided judgement of our efforts by others who would do better to spend their time doing their own work and if they had the time to spend, helpiing others along the way.
I don't have a lot of faith in mankind's ability to progress as a whole, very far or for very long. But I can't deny that if we don't try, at whatever level's we choose, we'll only fall further back into the black hole that's waiting. So, we persist. :)
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pond
The cause and effect of a chemical imbalance is very unclear. i have 7 brothers and sisters all have extremely high blood pressure and cholesteral sky high one would think this is a intese family history two had strokes in their forties all on major meds for it...
I have none of it NONE.
and im a pig I eat what I what when i want and have had a very very stressful life.
i believe what my MD says alot of illness is in your mind and how you think about life in gerneral.
Im not slapping a depressed person
the idea pf treat ment for the mind is a vast mysterious zone it is not exact science by far.
the issue is people refuse to change life styles or habits they have had.
such as thinking good thoughts etc.
I think it cant hurt and may help a great deal.
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RottieGrrrl
geisha: A good devotional is a wonderful idea. And I know what you mean about obeying God and not getting hung up on scripture and teachings and people's spins. Boy am I still working on that. I used to suffer terribly from lack of confidence in the Way and offshoot I attended for awhile because I thought I was spiritually inept especially when it came to the...ugh..manifestations. sigh. How silly that was. I was a mess and all I cared about was that.
jeff, yeah I liked this guys honesty too. Especially he was pointing out that a thought isn't a sin, it's when it starts to take over your mind that was dangerous. As I said, I'm not going to get into any personal stuff here, but I know EXACTLY what that means. And thoughts lead to actions. To the severe point: look at violent pornography, or child pornography, or ANY porn. What good can that lead to fill one's head with that crap? Why people get addicted to that at all is something totally different, probably based on a variety of things.
socks and pond you both made excellent points. I think we are pretty much on the same page as how we perceived this article. Thanks.
Now, still waiting for WW?
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Twinky
Seems like a reasonable article to me. The strength of some of the objections to it comes quite possibly from some semblance to the Renewed Mind class or similar.
What were we taught? You can't stop a bird roosting in a tree but you can stop it nesting? Something like that?
When we continually think negatives (or even "worldly" thoughts), that's what we come to expect. And sometimes we act on that expectation. It becomes normal.
It seems easy to think about doing something mean to someone we don't like. Picking a fight with a colleague at work that we don't particularly like. Or fancying someone we shouldn't get close to (perhaps because married). Watching violent movies on TV. Then that sort of behavior becomes "normal".
It seems less easy to think about doing something nice to someone - especially someone we don't like. Instead of blessing them, we look for ways to do the opposite. We don't remember our colleague's kindness, just a hasty remark at a busy time. We don't remember how kind our spouse/partner is, and how attractive we thought he/she was; we chase a fantasy. We don't watch movies about generosity in time of need, we look at what causes the need - war, or what have you.
It's just as easy to "practice" doing nice things as doing unpleasant things.
This is a good way to guard one's thoughts:
Philippians 4:8 [Holman Standard version]
It's an abuse to stamp on genuine concerns (like various TWI programs or behavior) in the name of "not thinking evil" - and that's not what "guarding one's thoughts" is about. The ones stamping on genuine concerns are in fact the ones thinking evil.
Oh, and it's not "head in the sand" either. Guarding one's thoughts doesn't mean ignoring what's going on all around, it means thinking about them realistically, and remembering God's goodness at the same time. He has a solution but it won't necessarily be instant. Guard one's thoughts to take the long view of His goodness and provision.
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Mark Clarke
I remember a variation of that saying, probably not in the RM class: You can't stop a dog from walking on your lawn but you can stop it from taking a dump there!
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geisha779
Rottiegirl,
I was just wondering why this guy would start out by indulging in fantasy about sin? If being filled with the Holy Spirit and built up in faith we gain the very attributes of The Holy Spirit. . . what He works into our lives. . . . love, joy, peace. . . . why would sin be fantasy worthy?
It becomes abhorent to us. . . . no? It is abhorent to God.
This is why I can see Waysider's point. Without being filled with something else, where loving your neighbor becomes a desire and is a result of loving God. . . . and being filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . trying to control your mind and thoughts can become a pathology. An obsession or an anxiety.
I think this is an odd premise to begin with. . . since I didn't act on it. . . I dreamed about doing it? Kinda a void there, much like TWI. Legalistic. Mind control.
The desire for the things of God should be greater and greater in our lives, the desire for sin less. It should be the things things that are pure, just, and good, we think on or dream of. . . . no?
That is what made me uncomfortable I think. :)
God fills us with better things to concern ourselves with. . . .
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