Hope: Oh yes, saw it opening night. Absolutely incredible. Sets the bar for all future epics. The new king of the hill in special effects.
Yes, PJ did take a lot more liberty with T2T than he did in FOTR, but it does work. The interplay between the Warriors Three (Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas) works extremely well. Gimli is not just comic relief, he shows why the dwarves were a major power in Middle-Earth, instead of just a source of midget jokes.
Gollum beats Jar Jar/Digital Yoda/Dobby into a cocked hat, as far as all-CGI characters go.
Helm's Deep really did make Attack of the Clones' finale look like it was "shot in a barn with hand puppets."
One of my personal favorites was the initial collision in the fight with the Warg-riders. That looked GREAT...
I'll have to go see it again, but I want to watch the Extended FOTR again right before I go.
And Jackson still says this isn't the best of the lot... ROTK must be unimaginably good.
I know what you're saying about Gimli... but the biggest and loudest laugh in the theater came from his two worded line... you know which one I mean. Don't tell me Jackson didn't do that on purpose!!!
Kathy: Nah, the TWI leaders would be more like Saruman than Gollum.
Anyway, if you have access to a DVD player, get the "green box" edition of Fellowship of the Ring. It's half an hour longer than the theatrical version and explains more of the characters' backstories.
Don't take my word for it. It was only nominated for THIRTEEN Oscars last year, including Best Picture.
The Two Towers is every bit as good, if not better...
I had heard that more was changed in The Two Towers than had been in The Fellowship of the Ring. I just came back from seeing TT and quite a bit was changed, but I think for the most part the movie stayed true to the spirit of the book.
Granted that dialog would have to be cut out, added, changed, or compressed to move things along.
Some of the big changes that I noted:
Aragorn falls off a cliff in a battle on the way to Helm's Deep, and shows up just ahead of the enemy
Faramir is not quite so pure in the movie as he is in the book. He is in the process of delivering Frodo and The Ring to Denethor, but lets him go.
Elrond is a bit of a pr*ck. He really dislikes Men. You wouldn't know from the movie that he is one of the Halfelven who were given the choice of being Elves or Men. (His brother Elros chose to be a Man and was Aragorn's ancestor)It seems like he and all the Elves are trying to head off to The Grey Havens and hop a freighter back to Valinor before Sauron attacks
A company of Elves fights at Helm's Deep. - and didn't I see Arwen marching off with them? or was it off to the Grey havens?
Eomer is kind of a renegade outlaw (instead of being locked up and then released after Theoden's recovery) and is not at Helm's Deep. He shows up with Gandalf to save the day. In the book Gandalf leads another warrior (I forget his name - Erkenbrand maybe) and the Huorns kill of a good many Orcs.
A couple of small things that were different, but no big deal, really:
In the book, Eowyn leads the people to Dunharrow in the mountains, in the movie she accompanies the warriors to Helm's Deep.
In the book Elrond will allow Arwen to marry Aragorn only if he becomes King. In the movie he is against it no matter what.
It is not made clear that there are Mordor Orcs, Moria Orcs, and Isengard Orcs (Uruk-Hai) all together in the group that captured Merry and Pippin. It is shown that there are two distinct breeds of Orc.
Did they really have to make Gimli the comic relief?
Things that I thought were portrayed well, or just pretty cool:
Eowyn is a babe! She is easily the best looking of the major female characters, and we see her wielding a sword, if only in practice.
Wormtongue is as unlikeable as he is portrayed in the book. 100% devious sycophant
Theoden's malady is possession by Saruman!
Excellent Gollum. I hated that froggy-looking cartoon in the Rankin-Bass "The Hobbitt". The split personality (Stinker and Slinker) is also done well
What a great battle!
quote: by Hope R
Oak -
I'm pretty sure Arwen was heading to the Grey Havens - which confuses me a bit. I re-read the books right before FOTR came out, and can't remember all the details. I'll have to look it over again.
Wasn't Theoden's transformation after Saruman leaves his body remarkable? And you're right, Wormtongue is all that I imagined... creepy as can be.
Hope R.
In the books Elrond, Galadriel and a bunch of other elves do not leave for the Grey Havens until well after Saruman is killed in The Shire, and there is no indication that they had any intention of leaving any earlier. Arwen has mostly an off stage role in the books, so there is no mention of her intentions at all, except that Aragorn gets to marry her after he becomes King.
Brad Dourif (Wormtongue) plays a great evil guy. The first time I remember seeing him was as a condemned murderer in the X-Files who was chanelling Scully's dead Dad, he also played a sociopath Maquis in Star Trek Voyager who is being trained by the Vulcan to control his emotions.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on December 26, 2002 at 22:53.]
When I read the film changes for TTT - they seemed to suggest that the elves that were leaving Rivendale were heading to Lothlorien for safety. I didn't get that from the movie at all. But they also had some scenes listed that weren't in the movie at all. I can't seem to get to the site right now, but I'll look later.
quote:We still haven't heard how Smeagol became Gollum,
or what he was before he became Gollum.
Yes, I know the answer, but a lot of people didn't
read the book.
Actually, Gandalf explains it to Frodo in the extended version of Fellowship of the Ring, at the Mines of Moria. If you have not seen the extended version, old friend, get thee to a Blockbuster NOW.
One of the big things that is left out of the movie is a lot of the background info. I don't know how you could get it all in without making each movie ten hours long, but there it is.
For instance, the role of Elrond is really diminished in the movies, and Rivendell is portrayed as kind of a retirement home/survivalist bunker for Elves.
Hey, Elrond was around in the First Age, when Sauron's precessor Morgoth was CEO of Evil, Inc. His brother was the first King of Numenor: Aragorn's ancestor. He has slogged it out in untold battles, including the Last Alliance when Sauron lost The Ring.
Maybe they'll indicate it in ROTK, but he (along with Gandalf and Galadriel) is a bearer of one of the Three Elven Rings of Power.
Instead he is shown as wanting to run out on Men, and acts a bit possesive of his daughter.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Just rented and watched The Fellowship of the Ring. Have not read these books for maybe 28 years now. Had forgotten so much of it. The movie (not dvd) was pretty good but the book had depth of character not captured in the movie IMO.
But everyone should have a Samwise Gamgee in their life. Yepper we should all be so blessed.
Hubby picked up The Two Towers to read again to refresh his memory before we see the movie (been approx 28 years since he read these also).
He also picked up The Silmarillion which is the epic history of the Elves. He said a good read of background material. He is looking thru it as he re-reads TTT.
One thing he just mentioned that we both had forgotten was why Gandalf had not died on those occasions he could have. We forgot he was a holder of one of the three rings.
Just watched FOTR with my 12 year old today on DVD.
Elrond does explain he was there, 3000 years before when Isildor cut Sauron's hand off and took the ring. Elrond led Isildor up to the edge of Mount Doom and told him to destroy the ring right away, which we know Isildor did not do.
I knew Elrond had one of the elf rings, and Galadriel... but didn't remember that Gandalf had one.
After watching FOTR again - I'm still peeved about the way they portrayed Galadriel. She's just too freaky and creepy for me. They also leave out almost all the gifts she gives to the fellowship when they leave Lothlorian (other than the phial of light she gives to Frodo) - as well as the Lembas, which is mentioned in TTT - but with no explanation of what it is or what it does.
I don't think Gandalf had one of the three Elven rings. The rings, Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, were held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan the Shipwright of the Grey Havens.
You don't really need to read T2T to appreciate the second movie. The only things you need to know are that the Kingdom of Rohan is one of many human kingdoms in Middle-Earth, it is west of Gondor and Mordor, and is basically a horse culture. Rohan is close to Isengard, Saruman's fortress, and therefore a logical strategic target for Saruman's attacks. The rest is fairly straightforward.
Oh, and DEFINITELY get the Extended "green-box" Edition of FOTR. The extra half-hour has vital backstory for those who haven't read the books. (Including, Hope, the whole gifts of Galadriel scene, explaining the lembas, the phial, the rope, Legolas' new bow, etc.)
First off yall probably already know this but the Elves have a different name for Gandalf from the men and hobbits. They call him Mithrandir "The Grey Pilgram". Gandalf (Olorin) one of the Istari (Wizards)
quote:
The Red Ring of Fire...at first that ring had been entrusted to Cirdan, Lord of the Havens; but he had surrendered it to Mithrandir, for he knew whence he came and whither at last he would return.
Take this Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valor of old in a world that grows cold.
Well you were correct in that it was once held by Cirdan.
Hope,
I agree they did a poor job of showing Galadriel, especially where she dealt with the lust/greed factor when she was with Frodo. That was creepy and I don't recall thinking she was that way in the book.
In defense of the movie Galadriel, there is a big setup that Lorien is not a good place to go, and not even Legolas denies this. If everyone there had been happy-go-lucky nice-nice elves, the setup would have been ludicrous.
No, this is one spot where it's Tolkien's fault. In The Hobbit, Mirkwood was a bad place, and the Elvenking was no friend. (even though he is Legolas' father) Elrond was only halfelven, so the hospitality at Rivendell could be explained. They needed to show that the elves weren't all that eager to get involved. Given the reception the Fellowship got when they reached Lothlorien, they really should have made it their first choice of destinations anyway. It just threw a little unnecessary suspense in that had to be paid off somehow. Granted, the whole negative-burn boo-scene was overdone, but how else would you do it?
I just went and saw the movie (T2T) for the 5th time last night. I went to see it four times during its opening weekend to help make up for all the slackers who didn't go until *after* the opening :-) It gets better everytime I see it. Plus, I'm catching bits of dialogue that I missed previously.
Re: Deagol and Smeagol - I've seen promotional pictures that show Deagol and Smeagol in their boat, so I think it was filmed. It will probably (hopefully?) be reinserted into the extended version of T2T. I think it will be put in where Frodo/Sam/Gollum are in the dead marshes, right after the scene where Frodo starts calling him Smeagol. In the dialogue between Slinker and Stinker, there's a place where the nasty Gollum calls Smeagol "...murrderrer...". I'm pretty sure that's a back reference to the murder of Deagol.
The only thing I didn't care for was the visualization of the wargs. They didn't seem wolfish enough. They looked like some big toothy marsupials having a bad hair day. I liked the way they fought, though. I've got three of the Games Workshop wargs painted up already. The models are better than the movie. The hair is more wolfish, which gives better delineation to the musculature. I'm going to run some skirmishes between them and the riders of Rohan using home-brewed rules.
I don't suppose I'm a Tolkien purist as far as minor plot points go. Watching a movie is a different thing from reading a book, so some approaches have to be different in order to generate the same enjoyment. How about this for a plot twist: the Elves get on their ships to the West, but Bill the Butcher and his cronies are waiting for them on the pier, and they all get enlisted to fight for the Union in the Civil War (seems they already have blue cloaks). Could you see the "Rivendell Rovers" brawling with the Bowery Boys and the Plug Uglies?
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Zixar
Hope: Oh yes, saw it opening night. Absolutely incredible. Sets the bar for all future epics. The new king of the hill in special effects.
Yes, PJ did take a lot more liberty with T2T than he did in FOTR, but it does work. The interplay between the Warriors Three (Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas) works extremely well. Gimli is not just comic relief, he shows why the dwarves were a major power in Middle-Earth, instead of just a source of midget jokes.
Gollum beats Jar Jar/Digital Yoda/Dobby into a cocked hat, as far as all-CGI characters go.
Helm's Deep really did make Attack of the Clones' finale look like it was "shot in a barn with hand puppets."
One of my personal favorites was the initial collision in the fight with the Warg-riders. That looked GREAT...
I'll have to go see it again, but I want to watch the Extended FOTR again right before I go.
And Jackson still says this isn't the best of the lot... ROTK must be unimaginably good.
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Hope R.
I know what you're saying about Gimli... but the biggest and loudest laugh in the theater came from his two worded line... you know which one I mean. Don't tell me Jackson didn't do that on purpose!!!
Hope R. color>size>face>
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!
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ChattyKathy
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
Hey, what if it is has been like 28 years since you read this work, is the movie still gonna be cool or should I re-read the work first?
Kathy
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Zixar
Kathy: My wife has never read the books and she still thought it was great. (Don't tell me you haven't seen Fellowship of the Ring yet! )
(p.s. This was my 1000th post on GSC-2! )
[This message was edited by Zixar on December 23, 2002 at 8:07.]
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ChattyKathy
Zixar,
Ummm, well, ummm I have lived a sheltered life. ha ha
Nope have not seen it yet. But will do some catch up soon. And thanks for the info about your wife enjoying it.
Hey, ever consider Gollum in light of TWI leaders? He was yucky.....hee hee.
Kathy
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Zixar
Kathy: Nah, the TWI leaders would be more like Saruman than Gollum.
Anyway, if you have access to a DVD player, get the "green box" edition of Fellowship of the Ring. It's half an hour longer than the theatrical version and explains more of the characters' backstories.
Don't take my word for it. It was only nominated for THIRTEEN Oscars last year, including Best Picture.
The Two Towers is every bit as good, if not better...
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ChattyKathy
Zixar,
Would have to agree, corruption being as it is in twi well Saruman would fit.
And I will make a point of seeing the movies soon.
Kathy
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WordWolf
I was glad they left in the "contest" between
Legolam and Gimli at Helm's Deep, even if it
didn't run thru several scenes.
I think Faramir got short-changed.
Is it part 3 where Eorl the Young (or whatever
his name was) appears? I thought there was a
scene with Theoden & one hobbit....
Perhaps it's in the 3rd book/movie.
If Part 3 does not have the Fellowship show up at
Isengard to "chat" with Saruman, I will be
peeved.....
I missed the lines where Grima/Wormtongue explains
why he calls Gandalf "stormcrow", but, since they
left out Aragorn's answer to why fools in Bree
call him "Longshanks", I guess that's only fair.
We still haven't heard how Smeagol became Gollum,
or what he was before he became Gollum.
Yes, I know the answer, but a lot of people didn't
read the book.
Quickbeam would have been nice to meet, although
he would have extended the ent scenes.
I could have done without that Aragorn-off-the
cliff scene. Where did that come from, & did they
really think it added to the movie, but the stuff
I mentioned before didn't?
Despite all my objections, I think it was great,
especially the Battle at Helm's Deep.
Meanwhile, I'll regroup at Minas Troney.
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Oakspear
I had heard that more was changed in The Two Towers than had been in The Fellowship of the Ring. I just came back from seeing TT and quite a bit was changed, but I think for the most part the movie stayed true to the spirit of the book.
Granted that dialog would have to be cut out, added, changed, or compressed to move things along.
Some of the big changes that I noted:
A couple of small things that were different, but no big deal, really:
Things that I thought were portrayed well, or just pretty cool:
Wormtongue is as unlikeable as he is portrayed in the book. 100% devious sycophant
In the books Elrond, Galadriel and a bunch of other elves do not leave for the Grey Havens until well after Saruman is killed in The Shire, and there is no indication that they had any intention of leaving any earlier. Arwen has mostly an off stage role in the books, so there is no mention of her intentions at all, except that Aragorn gets to marry her after he becomes King.
Brad Dourif (Wormtongue) plays a great evil guy. The first time I remember seeing him was as a condemned murderer in the X-Files who was chanelling Scully's dead Dad, he also played a sociopath Maquis in Star Trek Voyager who is being trained by the Vulcan to control his emotions.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on December 26, 2002 at 22:53.]
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Hope R.
Oaks -
If you look at the link I put up in the other thread, they have some spoilers for the ROTK film, too.
LOTR Move Changes
When I read the film changes for TTT - they seemed to suggest that the elves that were leaving Rivendale were heading to Lothlorien for safety. I didn't get that from the movie at all. But they also had some scenes listed that weren't in the movie at all. I can't seem to get to the site right now, but I'll look later.
Hope R. color>size>face>
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!
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Raf
Wordwolf:
Actually, Gandalf explains it to Frodo in the extended version of Fellowship of the Ring, at the Mines of Moria. If you have not seen the extended version, old friend, get thee to a Blockbuster NOW.
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WordWolf
Do you think we'll have to deal with
"special editions" in several years, once we've
all bought copies?
I hope not. One series is enough for that sort of
thing.
--------
I don't care how unauthentic it is to have
an elf firing arrows while surfing a shield in
the middle of a major battle-it looked too cool
to leave out!
Besides, from the books, it's clear elves can
fire arrows under just about any circumstance
imaginable, & hit their targets.
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Raf
Actually, I simply don't recall if its in the theatrical release. But it's definitely in the extended.
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Steve!
Um, Wolfie, listen to yourself -
Um, Wolfie? What is authentic about elves to begin with?
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Oakspear
One of the big things that is left out of the movie is a lot of the background info. I don't know how you could get it all in without making each movie ten hours long, but there it is.
For instance, the role of Elrond is really diminished in the movies, and Rivendell is portrayed as kind of a retirement home/survivalist bunker for Elves.
Hey, Elrond was around in the First Age, when Sauron's precessor Morgoth was CEO of Evil, Inc. His brother was the first King of Numenor: Aragorn's ancestor. He has slogged it out in untold battles, including the Last Alliance when Sauron lost The Ring.
Maybe they'll indicate it in ROTK, but he (along with Gandalf and Galadriel) is a bearer of one of the Three Elven Rings of Power.
Instead he is shown as wanting to run out on Men, and acts a bit possesive of his daughter.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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ChattyKathy
Just rented and watched The Fellowship of the Ring. Have not read these books for maybe 28 years now. Had forgotten so much of it. The movie (not dvd) was pretty good but the book had depth of character not captured in the movie IMO.
But everyone should have a Samwise Gamgee in their life. Yepper we should all be so blessed.
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ChattyKathy
Hubby picked up The Two Towers to read again to refresh his memory before we see the movie (been approx 28 years since he read these also).
He also picked up The Silmarillion which is the epic history of the Elves. He said a good read of background material. He is looking thru it as he re-reads TTT.
One thing he just mentioned that we both had forgotten was why Gandalf had not died on those occasions he could have. We forgot he was a holder of one of the three rings.
Kathy
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Hope R.
Just watched FOTR with my 12 year old today on DVD.
Elrond does explain he was there, 3000 years before when Isildor cut Sauron's hand off and took the ring. Elrond led Isildor up to the edge of Mount Doom and told him to destroy the ring right away, which we know Isildor did not do.
I knew Elrond had one of the elf rings, and Galadriel... but didn't remember that Gandalf had one.
After watching FOTR again - I'm still peeved about the way they portrayed Galadriel. She's just too freaky and creepy for me. They also leave out almost all the gifts she gives to the fellowship when they leave Lothlorian (other than the phial of light she gives to Frodo) - as well as the Lembas, which is mentioned in TTT - but with no explanation of what it is or what it does.
Hope R. color>size>face>
Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll
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Zixar
Wait a second...
I don't think Gandalf had one of the three Elven rings. The rings, Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, were held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan the Shipwright of the Grey Havens.
You don't really need to read T2T to appreciate the second movie. The only things you need to know are that the Kingdom of Rohan is one of many human kingdoms in Middle-Earth, it is west of Gondor and Mordor, and is basically a horse culture. Rohan is close to Isengard, Saruman's fortress, and therefore a logical strategic target for Saruman's attacks. The rest is fairly straightforward.
Oh, and DEFINITELY get the Extended "green-box" Edition of FOTR. The extra half-hour has vital backstory for those who haven't read the books. (Including, Hope, the whole gifts of Galadriel scene, explaining the lembas, the phial, the rope, Legolas' new bow, etc.)
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ChattyKathy
First off yall probably already know this but the Elves have a different name for Gandalf from the men and hobbits. They call him Mithrandir "The Grey Pilgram". Gandalf (Olorin) one of the Istari (Wizards)
quote:
The Red Ring of Fire...at first that ring had been entrusted to Cirdan, Lord of the Havens; but he had surrendered it to Mithrandir, for he knew whence he came and whither at last he would return.
Take this Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valor of old in a world that grows cold.
Does that help ya Zixar?
Kathy
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Zixar
CKathy: Oh, that's right...my mistake!
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ChattyKathy
Zixar,
Well you were correct in that it was once held by Cirdan.
Hope,
I agree they did a poor job of showing Galadriel, especially where she dealt with the lust/greed factor when she was with Frodo. That was creepy and I don't recall thinking she was that way in the book.
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Zixar
In defense of the movie Galadriel, there is a big setup that Lorien is not a good place to go, and not even Legolas denies this. If everyone there had been happy-go-lucky nice-nice elves, the setup would have been ludicrous.
No, this is one spot where it's Tolkien's fault. In The Hobbit, Mirkwood was a bad place, and the Elvenking was no friend. (even though he is Legolas' father) Elrond was only halfelven, so the hospitality at Rivendell could be explained. They needed to show that the elves weren't all that eager to get involved. Given the reception the Fellowship got when they reached Lothlorien, they really should have made it their first choice of destinations anyway. It just threw a little unnecessary suspense in that had to be paid off somehow. Granted, the whole negative-burn boo-scene was overdone, but how else would you do it?
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Steve Lortz
I just went and saw the movie (T2T) for the 5th time last night. I went to see it four times during its opening weekend to help make up for all the slackers who didn't go until *after* the opening :-) It gets better everytime I see it. Plus, I'm catching bits of dialogue that I missed previously.
Re: Deagol and Smeagol - I've seen promotional pictures that show Deagol and Smeagol in their boat, so I think it was filmed. It will probably (hopefully?) be reinserted into the extended version of T2T. I think it will be put in where Frodo/Sam/Gollum are in the dead marshes, right after the scene where Frodo starts calling him Smeagol. In the dialogue between Slinker and Stinker, there's a place where the nasty Gollum calls Smeagol "...murrderrer...". I'm pretty sure that's a back reference to the murder of Deagol.
The only thing I didn't care for was the visualization of the wargs. They didn't seem wolfish enough. They looked like some big toothy marsupials having a bad hair day. I liked the way they fought, though. I've got three of the Games Workshop wargs painted up already. The models are better than the movie. The hair is more wolfish, which gives better delineation to the musculature. I'm going to run some skirmishes between them and the riders of Rohan using home-brewed rules.
I don't suppose I'm a Tolkien purist as far as minor plot points go. Watching a movie is a different thing from reading a book, so some approaches have to be different in order to generate the same enjoyment. How about this for a plot twist: the Elves get on their ships to the West, but Bill the Butcher and his cronies are waiting for them on the pier, and they all get enlisted to fight for the Union in the Civil War (seems they already have blue cloaks). Could you see the "Rivendell Rovers" brawling with the Bowery Boys and the Plug Uglies?
It's *all* just too much fun!
Love,
Steve
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