One of the things about this thread that is really gelling for me is that TWI leadership was trained to do many things that are damnable in a Biblical sense.
I really am not sure why I didn't see Wierwille's error in the blashphemy of the spirit doctrine right away!? I mean the Lord meant exactly what he said as it applied to what the Pharisees were saying about him. It couldn't be any more simple.
And later, TWI leadership felt that they had the liberty to use slander and every other dirty trick in the book to put down honest and good people with the spirit of God that were confronting TWI practices.
And now , in part, because of the refusal to except just reproof they are forever marked until they are judged by the fact that they said these good people were devilish. And they did everything in their power to destroy the lives of these folks and wreck their reputations too.
They blashemed the holy spirit and didn't even know it! But I'm certain that they were warned according to the mercies of a just God. There are many stories here of brave people who tried to get them to see the errors in what they were doing, even at their own peril. IMO it seems clear to me that if the Lord will ever personally reward anyone, it will be the ones who warned TWI leadership at their own peril.
GOD BLESS TWI misfits and malcontents! THE LORD IS JUST AND HAS AN EXCELLENT MEMORY.
I really laughed at the SNL skit Mister P-Mosh. Quite a bit over the years. But in a more serious note.
It seems true to me that many non-Christians have every right to make fun of Christians who throw "devilish" about every time they face something that they do not like. SNL does not seem far off the mark in this sense to me, many Christians hardly seem to have more depth and compassion than "The Church Lady." IMO all anybody has to do is apply a little common sense to this religious situation.
I believe that the Bible is telling the truth on this subject and I endeavor to handle the topic in a manner that is good. But if I were to ever see anybody speak to another with the same effect as the Apostle Paul did in Acts 13 then the "hand of God" being with the speaker would be plain for all to see. But that still isn't taking into account all the fraudulent miracles out there that when exposed give Christianity a bad name.
And another factor is all the people who in the course of many centuries who have been persecuted and put to death even in the Lord's name. Often times this Christian initiated persecution has included false propaganda, encouraging in many different words, "fighting the Devil."
But just like What the Hey's initial sentence that inspired me to make this thread, these things do harm to anybody who has to suffer the put-down and the one who takes it upon themselves to call another "devilish."
The speaker will be hurt big-time if as the Bible says, the speaker will not be forgiven for calling a person who is inspired by the spirit of God a devilish person.
This last weekend it has continued to amaze me that I ever believed Wierwille's handling of Mat. 12 was correct. The Lord was being told that he had a devil. And he rebuked the accusers as directly as possible, telling them that they would not be forgiven for what they were doing. Now that I see this record simply, Wierwille's ideas of "seed of the serpent" that he introduced in PFAL from these verses only seem like a bunch of gobbledeegook that only serves to confuse what was in effect; a very simple scriptural narrative.
(Edited for spelling and clarity, or lack thereof)
I really laughed at the SNL skit Mister P-Mosh. Quite a bit over the years. But in a more serious note.
It seems true to me that many non-Christians have every right to make fun of Christians who throw "devilish" about every time they face something that they do not like. SNL does not seem far off the mark in this sense to me, many Christians hardly seem to have more depth and compassion than "The Church Lady." IMO all anybody has to do is apply a little common sense to this religious situation.
I believe that the Bible is telling the truth on this subject and I endeavor to handle the topic in a manner that is good. But if I were to ever see anybody speak to another with the same effect as the Apostle Paul did in Acts 13 then the "hand of God" being with the speaker would be plain for all to see. But that still isn't taking into account all the fraudulent miracles out there that when exposed give Christianity a bad name.
And another factor is all the people who in the course of many centuries who have been persecuted and put to death even in the Lord's name. Often times this Christian initiated persecution has included false propaganda, encouraging in many different words, "fighting the Devil."
But just like What the Hey's initial sentence that inspired me to make this thread, these things do harm to anybody who has to suffer the put-down and the one who takes it upon themselves to call another "devilish."
The speaker will be hurt big-time if as the Bible says, the speaker will not be forgiven for calling a person who is inspired by the spirit of God a devilish person.
This last weekend it has continued to amaze me that I ever believed Wierwille's handling of Mat. 12 was correct. The Lord was being told that he had a devil. And he rebuked the accusers as directly as possible, telling them that they would not be forgiven for what they were doing. Now that I see this record simply, Wierwille's ideas of "seed of the serpent" that he introduced in PFAL from these verses only seem like a bunch of gobbledeegook that only serves to confuse what was in effect; a very simple scriptural narrative.
(Edited for spelling and clarity, or lack thereof)
I just saw this. LOL
Gotta tell you, I laughed when I read the intial comment that promted your thread. It was directed at me and all I thought was, no doubt he was in TWI.
I insulted an idol is all. People take it personally. I thought I handled it rather well. :)
It didn't hurt me. There is no ill will toward the poster. I feel empathy for him/her.
But, you do have a really excellent point. We did have a rather ugly habit of arrogance in general and a fall back position of the devil. Especially toward the Christian faith . Not only did we feel that they were ignorant, and we knew more scripture and the "Truth". . . . but often our superior attitude allowed us to judge the church as idolators. We did this from the perspective of an entirely differing faith. Different understanding of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We did this from outside the church.
It got soooooo bad that at one point I think we called the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. Now, that is dangerous territory. Now, you are on some serious shakey ground.
Having come full circle, and seen the same scriptures in a new light, having a new understanding. . . . and having met and prayed and worshipped with genuine Christians. . . I have truly repented. I understand WHY they believe as they do. . . I see the same God they do. . . . I know so many Christians. God has allowed me to take communion with the same people I mocked. To see the love they have for me, each other, and even those who mock them. Patience, because they came to the table empty and were filled. Not of their own doing. Amazing love and patience. Hope and genuine long term prayer for others. I am always undone by God's people.
It is so difficult to explain, but, TWI and its offshoots are so different than the Christian church. They still have a condscending attitude about great truths that the church is missing. It is so ironic. . . . they are still our brothers and sisters. . . just misguided??
NO. . . they are not misguided. . . they are guided by a right understanding. . . not hidden from God's own people. They belong to the Most High. They are His servants. What does that make us? Mockers? The enlightened ones? or brothers?
I used to send my son to a bible camp every summer. BUT, I would tell this poor kid. . . . Jesus isn't God. . . . they don't know what they are talking about. . . come to us so we can fix what they teach you???????????? Why send him somewhere I thought was so misguided? I don't know. . . thought we belonged, but they were just wrong. I got involved and met the people, most amazing place. It took until he was 10 for me to start realizing it was ME there was something wrong with. My understanding. It was the fruit in the lives of these people that served.
They were not condescending.
Ever have a 10 year old look at you with a little bit of bewilderment mixed with pity and gently correct your bible understanding?? Not fun. Humbles you.
This throwing around of "devil spirits" "Discernment" and the mocking. . . it comes from a place of arrogance. God doesn't dwell there. It is confidence in our own knowledge or understanding that breeds such contempt. It is a dangerous payground.
But, God He is so merciful. He does deliver people out of this hornets nest of confusion.
The one thing that does always give me serious pause though. . . was our handling of the Holy Spirit. Kinda what you were alluding to in Mat 12. Little scary when you consider some called the Jesus of the church a devil spirit.
I laughed when I read how you handled the initial comment. But I told What the Hey once before that the more that he put folks down, the more that I recognized him for what he really was. And once he threw the "real devil" comment out it seemed like it was a good time for a "throw down" on my part anyway.
I remember TWI taking shots at another Jesus too. Considering how the Lord handled a similar situation it does make it a scary topic IMO. But considering what the Lord said was at stake it seems to me to be an overdue(perhaps) or timely doctrinal consideration.
I'm real glad to finally have your take on this thread Geisha, because the post that prompted my response was directed at you. :)
Maybe you could expound a bit on your understanding of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 12. I am genuinely interested.
You alluded to the issue as being serious.Some things not being forgiven. Now, remember, it doesn't matter what VP taught. . . . or anyone, I am curious what Jesus is saying to YOU in these scriptures! :)
Here are some simple basic understandings from bible gateway.
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Jesus presents a world sharply divided into God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom, and indicates through various arguments that one cannot be working for both kingdoms at the same time.
Jesus first asks why the devil would work at cross-purposes with himself (vv. 25-26). Perhaps the devil might permit a few exorcisms to bring fame to a sorcerer and gain ground in the long run; Jesus' widespread expulsion of demons, however, constitutes no minor strategic retreat but a wholesale assault on Satan's kingdom on earth. The necessity of concord or harmony for survival represents common wisdom in ancient society (unfortunately sometimes ignored by Christians today).
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Jesus next questions why his opponents single out his ministry of exorcism while approving exorcisms performed by their own disciples (v. 27). Jewish exorcists were common and employed a variety of magical techniques (see comment on 8:17; compare Meier 1980:134-35), quite in contrast to Jesus, whose mere command the demons obeyed in fear.
Third, if Jesus was driving out demons by God's Spirit, this action constituted proof that the time of the kingdom was upon them (12:28). Most Pharisees apparently believed that the prophetic Spirit had been quenched when the last biblical prophets died and that the Spirit would be restored only in the time of the kingdom (Keener 1991b:77-84). Although many Pharisees apparently rejected miracles as proof of truth (Bonsirven 1964:16), Jesus summons them to consider an alternative explanation for his miracles, namely, that the promised time of the Spirit has come. Indeed, the Greek construction here could be rendered "since I drive out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom has come on the scene." Matthew rightly interprets "finger of God" (Lk 11:20 and Q) as God's Spirit, showing that Jesus is the promised harbinger of the Spirit (12:18), the first agent of God's kingdom. This makes good sense: as the climax of history approaches, the forces of God's kingdom and the devil's are arrayed in battle against one another.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Fourth, Jesus had defeated the strong man, "binding" him (tying him up) so that he could plunder the possessions in the strong man's house (v. 29). That is to say, Jesus invaded Satan's domain and defeated him so he could recapture the human hearts that Satan had enslaved through demon possession or other means. Far from being authorized by the demons' ruler, Jesus had authority over the devil-one spirit that no mere magical incantation could thwart (compare Test. Sol. 6:8)! Since Jesus claims a specific act of binding prior to his ministry of exorcism, he probably refers back to his defeat of Satan at the temptation (using language from Is 49:24-25). Jesus is saying that his integrity before God in defeating temptation has given him power over Satan.
In some modern circles, attempts at exorcism dabble in imaginary demons or recite formulas taken out of context from Scripture. Although God honors faith regardless of the formula used, exorcists do not need to say "I bind you" to demons before expelling them; they just need to make sure they are walking in integrity before God (Acts 19:11-20). In establishing the first stage of his kingdom, Jesus already defeated the devil, and he has delegated his authority over evil spirits to those who are truly his followers, those who submit to his reign. The final "binding" of Satan awaits his future defeat (compare 13:30; Rev 20:2; Twelftree 1986:391-92); thus it is possible that his binding before the end of the age may have caught him by surprise (see 8:29).
Finally, this list of arguments concludes with Jesus' warning that whoever was not on his side was on the other side (12:30). This saying also reflects common wisdom in both Greek (compare Suet. Julius 75) and Jewish (compare Flusser 1988:510-11) life. Jesus allows no would-be disciples to straddle the fence: one either follows him or opposes him, just as one does with the devil.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jewish teachers acknowledged that deliberate sin against God's law ("sin with a high hand" or "defiantly"-see Num 15:30-31; Deut 29:18-20; CD 8.8), such as deliberate blasphemy against God, was normally unforgivable (Jub. 15:34; 1QS 7.15-17, 22-23). Even such a sin as Peter's denial of Jesus (Mt 26:69-75) clearly does not count in the unforgivable category (28:10, 16-20); the context of blaspheming against the Spirit here refers specifically to the sin of the Pharisees, who are on the verge of becoming incapable of repentance. The sign of their hardness of heart is their determination to reject any proof for Jesus' divine mission, to the extent that they even attribute God's attestation of Jesus to the devil.
The equivalent today would be someone who remained so committed to rejecting Christ that she determined to find alternative explanations for any obvious proof (such as miracles) attesting him. Even in what seems to be that case, however, Paul exhorts one of his students and coworkers to remember that we humans cannot judge who has forever crossed that line (1 Tim 1:12-20). Not uncommonly young Christians read about the "unforgivable sin" and fear they have committed it. We therefore must reiterate the point in this context: the sin is unforgivable only because it reflects a heart too hard to repent. Those who desire to repent, troubled by the fear that they may have committed this sin, plainly have not committed it!
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
That one's speech reveals one's heart may represent conventional Jewish wisdom, Jesus here indicates that even the most careless words spoken without thought will testify concerning one's character in the judgment day. God does not listen only to what we say during Sunday-morning church services.
In this context Jesus is saying that one expects people like these Pharisees to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because their hearts are so corrupt. Because the Pharisees appeared righteous to most other observers (compare Lk 16:15), Jesus' harsh condemnation of their behavior sounds an even greater warning to those today who reject the truth of Christ yet sit in churches.
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Because God has already provided the world with sufficient evidence, he has the right to expect faith from those who have heard the truth. It is important to be ready to respond to people's objections to the faith, but sometimes we must also point out where the challengers ignore evidence already available to them. Jesus had already been providing signs, and his opponents were disputing their validity (vv. 22-24). The demand for a sign may recall Pharaoh's challenge to Moses for a sign .
The whole of Matthew 12:39-45 constitutes Jesus' response to his opponents' charges (wicked . . . generation in vv. 39, 45 frames the section). Jesus explains that his generation needs no greater sign that he is from God than his own message.
He first insists that the only sign the sign seekers would be given was the sign that God supplied to the Ninevites: Jonah's restoration after three days on the edge of death (vv. 39-40). One should keep in mind, however, that the Ninevites did not witness Jonah's resuscitation for themselves; indeed, there is no evidence he even recounted it to them (Jon 3:1-4; compare 3 Macc 6:8; Justin Dial. 107). The Ninevites experienced the effects of a divine sign they never recognized, and this may be Matthew's point (not clear in Lk 11:29, 32): the Ninevites repented without recognizing a sign, whereas Jesus' opponents were too hardhearted to repent despite the many signs he had been giving them (compare Mt 11:20-24; Jon 1:16; 4:2). All the Ninevites needed was Jonah's preaching of the truth, yet Jesus was greater than Jonah (Mt 12:41; compare v. 6).
Jesus' second example is that Solomon's wisdom was enough to prove his divine appointment, and that a distant queen heard and came to him (as some Gentile seekers had done with Jesus-2:1-12; 1 Kings 10:1-13). Yet one greater than Solomon was there. The images of the Ninevites and the queen of Sheba condemning Jesus' generation in Israel at the judgment would have horrified Jesus' hearers, many of whom expected Israel's final vindication against the nations on judgment day.
At least part of the point of the story of the queen of Sheba in context is Solomon's witness to the nations, and God's concern for Gentiles stands at the heart of the book of Jonah as well. By appealing to two repentant Gentiles in the Hebrew Bible, Matthew reemphasizes the Gentile mission: those who know little about Israel's God (like the Ninevites or the queen of Sheba, or the Magi earlier in his Gospel) are often least arrogant, hence most responsive to the gospel.
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Matthew specifically places this paragraph within the discussion of this wicked generation (vv. 39, 45) and uses it (unlike Luke) to conclude Jesus' response to his opponents. Whatever else the parable might say about exorcism, Jesus' point is what it says to that generation: although Jesus was exorcising the generation, its evil leaders were setting it up to be demonized all the more by rejecting Jesus' reign (compare Jeremias 1972:106; Argyle 1963:99).
If one translates the passage literally, a key sentence may be conditional: the demons will return if the house is left empty (Jeremias 1971:154). Were Jesus' opponents accusing him of being in league with Satan through his exorcisms (v. 24)? Jesus here returns the charge: it is they, not he, who are redemonizing their generation, for they leave the house empty in which God, the only true alternative to the devil, should reign (compare 23:38-39).
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Just an aside, I wonder if you ever notice what Jesus does when He speaks. He speaks in parables. . . He says "Consider" consider this, consider that, He asks questions. He nails the entire human heart in a few phrases. I just love that about Him. He asks "Who do YOU say I am?" Same question He is still asking today.
He is always gently causing people to examine what they do believe and think, while often giving them an alternate explanation. Offered, but never forced. It is so cool.
In relation to the topic, there is a very sad website, truly misguided, where people make videos denying the Holy Spirit. Thinking this will damn them, but not really believing in the first place. Mocking really. It isn't the unforgivable sin. . . . but they think it is. . . http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/
We rode the rail much closer in TWI IMHO. When I mentioned calling the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. . . or the name of the Jesus. . . I forget. . . . and
our understanding of the Holy Spirit. . . . we were closer to what Matthew is speaking of here. It was all wrapped up in such arrogance. Just consider it! :)
Maybe you could expound a bit on your understanding of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 12. I am genuinely interested.
You alluded to the issue as being serious.Some things not being forgiven. Now, remember, it doesn't matter what VP taught. . . . or anyone, I am curious what Jesus is saying to YOU in these scriptures! :)
Don't worry about me worrying about what Wierwille said Geisha. :) One of my purposes in this thread is to point out that the doctrine that Wierwille introduced using these scriptures totally misses the point of these scriptures. I believe that for TWI's benefit I am sharing that not only did Wierwille miss the point, but that leadership's manner became damnable because in their arrogance they have not only spoken against the Spirit of God but have destroyed lives in the very same manner that the Pharisees are recorded as going after the Lord in Mt12.
Here are some simple basic understandings from bible gateway.
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Jesus presents a world sharply divided into God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom, and indicates through various arguments that one cannot be working for both kingdoms at the same time.
Jesus first asks why the devil would work at cross-purposes with himself (vv. 25-26). Perhaps the devil might permit a few exorcisms to bring fame to a sorcerer and gain ground in the long run; Jesus' widespread expulsion of demons, however, constitutes no minor strategic retreat but a wholesale assault on Satan's kingdom on earth. The necessity of concord or harmony for survival represents common wisdom in ancient society (unfortunately sometimes ignored by Christians today).
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Jesus next questions why his opponents single out his ministry of exorcism while approving exorcisms performed by their own disciples (v. 27). Jewish exorcists were common and employed a variety of magical techniques (see comment on 8:17; compare Meier 1980:134-35), quite in contrast to Jesus, whose mere command the demons obeyed in fear.
Third, if Jesus was driving out demons by God's Spirit, this action constituted proof that the time of the kingdom was upon them (12:28). Most Pharisees apparently believed that the prophetic Spirit had been quenched when the last biblical prophets died and that the Spirit would be restored only in the time of the kingdom (Keener 1991b:77-84). Although many Pharisees apparently rejected miracles as proof of truth (Bonsirven 1964:16), Jesus summons them to consider an alternative explanation for his miracles, namely, that the promised time of the Spirit has come. Indeed, the Greek construction here could be rendered "since I drive out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom has come on the scene." Matthew rightly interprets "finger of God" (Lk 11:20 and Q) as God's Spirit, showing that Jesus is the promised harbinger of the Spirit (12:18), the first agent of God's kingdom. This makes good sense: as the climax of history approaches, the forces of God's kingdom and the devil's are arrayed in battle against one another.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Fourth, Jesus had defeated the strong man, "binding" him (tying him up) so that he could plunder the possessions in the strong man's house (v. 29). That is to say, Jesus invaded Satan's domain and defeated him so he could recapture the human hearts that Satan had enslaved through demon possession or other means. Far from being authorized by the demons' ruler, Jesus had authority over the devil-one spirit that no mere magical incantation could thwart (compare Test. Sol. 6:8)! Since Jesus claims a specific act of binding prior to his ministry of exorcism, he probably refers back to his defeat of Satan at the temptation (using language from Is 49:24-25). Jesus is saying that his integrity before God in defeating temptation has given him power over Satan.
In some modern circles, attempts at exorcism dabble in imaginary demons or recite formulas taken out of context from Scripture. Although God honors faith regardless of the formula used, exorcists do not need to say "I bind you" to demons before expelling them; they just need to make sure they are walking in integrity before God (Acts 19:11-20). In establishing the first stage of his kingdom, Jesus already defeated the devil, and he has delegated his authority over evil spirits to those who are truly his followers, those who submit to his reign. The final "binding" of Satan awaits his future defeat (compare 13:30; Rev 20:2; Twelftree 1986:391-92); thus it is possible that his binding before the end of the age may have caught him by surprise (see 8:29).
Finally, this list of arguments concludes with Jesus' warning that whoever was not on his side was on the other side (12:30). This saying also reflects common wisdom in both Greek (compare Suet. Julius 75) and Jewish (compare Flusser 1988:510-11) life. Jesus allows no would-be disciples to straddle the fence: one either follows him or opposes him, just as one does with the devil.
All the things that you've said in this last section will take me some time to take in. But even without in-depth analysis on my part I believe that the lord showed them how their attempts to discredit him in truth only showed how they made no sense whatsoever and that they were missing out on the blessings that He actually were bringing to God's people.
Earlier in this chapter the scriptures record that the Pharisees were already scheming on how they might destroy Him. It is sad to me that TWI leadership has sought to destroy people that were trying to help them in the same manner. Their have been many accounts here of people who tried to confront TWI in the old days. And by all accounts here TWI has only gotten much worse since the eighties which was my time of association with TWI.
Since What the Hey took it upon himself to speak of those that had "real devils" right here at the Greasespot I thought it might do him some good to explore the options. In my thinking these are two of the options....
1. What the Hey was getting all worked up about "real devils" for the wrong reasons and was actually fighting against good people and bringing the judgment of God upon himself by fighting these devils that he thinks he sees. If I understood anything about the biblical doctrine of a spiritual contest it is that when we are deceived off of God's Word we have already lost. If those who are fighting devils are just as wrong as the Pharisees were then they need someone to tell them that they are making no sense whatsoever and will be judged for their obstinate refusal to see that what they are doing is wrong.
2. What the Hey might be willing to defend his accusation of seeing "real devils" WHAT THE HECK What the Hey? I've given you this chance anyway.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jewish teachers acknowledged that deliberate sin against God's law ("sin with a high hand" or "defiantly"-see Num 15:30-31; Deut 29:18-20; CD 8.8), such as deliberate blasphemy against God, was normally unforgivable (Jub. 15:34; 1QS 7.15-17, 22-23). Even such a sin as Peter's denial of Jesus (Mt 26:69-75) clearly does not count in the unforgivable category (28:10, 16-20); the context of blaspheming against the Spirit here refers specifically to the sin of the Pharisees, who are on the verge of becoming incapable of repentance. The sign of their hardness of heart is their determination to reject any proof for Jesus' divine mission, to the extent that they even attribute God's attestation of Jesus to the devil.
The equivalent today would be someone who remained so committed to rejecting Christ that she determined to find alternative explanations for any obvious proof (such as miracles) attesting him. Even in what seems to be that case, however, Paul exhorts one of his students and coworkers to remember that we humans cannot judge who has forever crossed that line (1 Tim 1:12-20). Not uncommonly young Christians read about the "unforgivable sin" and fear they have committed it. We therefore must reiterate the point in this context: the sin is unforgivable only because it reflects a heart too hard to repent. Those who desire to repent, troubled by the fear that they may have committed this sin, plainly have not committed it!
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
That one's speech reveals one's heart may represent conventional Jewish wisdom, Jesus here indicates that even the most careless words spoken without thought will testify concerning one's character in the judgment day. God does not listen only to what we say during Sunday-morning church services.
In this context Jesus is saying that one expects people like these Pharisees to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because their hearts are so corrupt. Because the Pharisees appeared righteous to most other observers (compare Lk 16:15), Jesus' harsh condemnation of their behavior sounds an even greater warning to those today who reject the truth of Christ yet sit in churches.
One thing about this record that I'm reminded of is that it was not academic. The Lord himself was working and people were taking sides as a result. I believe that our judgment will be as the Lord has said in these verses. So it would behoove any of us to think about our own words. This is much better IMO than any pointing at other folks outside of what is going on right here and now.
It is evident to me that all of us are capable of pointing some imaginary folks out there somewhere who've rejected the Lord. But what about the things that are going on right here and right now? Are not we taking sides and are not some thinking that they are fighting "real devils" even now? Do they even know what they are rejecting before they resort to every nasty trick in the book to put another down?
In my former splinter group they rejected every chance that I gave them to stop fighting the devil that they percieved and stand corrected on their bogus doctrines. They have foolishly decided that it is o.k. to follow a man who has allowed ten young women to in one of the girl's own words to be "married to the christ in Victor." They have decided to follow a man who before they kicked me out had made several false prophecies concerning the Lord's return. Most all of them has given everything in their own life over to a man who IMO really fears and despises them. But in their mind, to not listen to me was successfully fighting the devil. pffhhh!
I'm giving What the Hey a chance to make his case out here in broad daylight where we all can see it.
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Because God has already provided the world with sufficient evidence, he has the right to expect faith from those who have heard the truth. It is important to be ready to respond to people's objections to the faith, but sometimes we must also point out where the challengers ignore evidence already available to them. Jesus had already been providing signs, and his opponents were disputing their validity (vv. 22-24). The demand for a sign may recall Pharaoh's challenge to Moses for a sign .
The whole of Matthew 12:39-45 constitutes Jesus' response to his opponents' charges (wicked . . . generation in vv. 39, 45 frames the section). Jesus explains that his generation needs no greater sign that he is from God than his own message.
He first insists that the only sign the sign seekers would be given was the sign that God supplied to the Ninevites: Jonah's restoration after three days on the edge of death (vv. 39-40). One should keep in mind, however, that the Ninevites did not witness Jonah's resuscitation for themselves; indeed, there is no evidence he even recounted it to them (Jon 3:1-4; compare 3 Macc 6:8; Justin Dial. 107). The Ninevites experienced the effects of a divine sign they never recognized, and this may be Matthew's point (not clear in Lk 11:29, 32): the Ninevites repented without recognizing a sign, whereas Jesus' opponents were too hardhearted to repent despite the many signs he had been giving them (compare Mt 11:20-24; Jon 1:16; 4:2). All the Ninevites needed was Jonah's preaching of the truth, yet Jesus was greater than Jonah (Mt 12:41; compare v. 6).
Jesus' second example is that Solomon's wisdom was enough to prove his divine appointment, and that a distant queen heard and came to him (as some Gentile seekers had done with Jesus-2:1-12; 1 Kings 10:1-13). Yet one greater than Solomon was there. The images of the Ninevites and the queen of Sheba condemning Jesus' generation in Israel at the judgment would have horrified Jesus' hearers, many of whom expected Israel's final vindication against the nations on judgment day.
At least part of the point of the story of the queen of Sheba in context is Solomon's witness to the nations, and God's concern for Gentiles stands at the heart of the book of Jonah as well. By appealing to two repentant Gentiles in the Hebrew Bible, Matthew reemphasizes the Gentile mission: those who know little about Israel's God (like the Ninevites or the queen of Sheba, or the Magi earlier in his Gospel) are often least arrogant, hence most responsive to the gospel.
I believe that in like manner we need to give the non-Christians a brake and focus on bogus Christian doctrines and practices. In my mind it seems plain that corrupt belief is more damnable than those who haven't heard enough to believe yet.
Who can say if and when someone may believe in Christ? not me.
But some of these people's words condemn themselves and others through bad doctrines and nasty practices.
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Matthew specifically places this paragraph within the discussion of this wicked generation (vv. 39, 45) and uses it (unlike Luke) to conclude Jesus' response to his opponents. Whatever else the parable might say about exorcism, Jesus' point is what it says to that generation: although Jesus was exorcising the generation, its evil leaders were setting it up to be demonized all the more by rejecting Jesus' reign (compare Jeremias 1972:106; Argyle 1963:99).
If one translates the passage literally, a key sentence may be conditional: the demons will return if the house is left empty (Jeremias 1971:154). Were Jesus' opponents accusing him of being in league with Satan through his exorcisms (v. 24)? Jesus here returns the charge: it is they, not he, who are redemonizing their generation, for they leave the house empty in which God, the only true alternative to the devil, should reign (compare 23:38-39).
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Again, it is about doing, and I intend to do my best to focus on right here and now.
As I said in my profile," Their may be some fellowship out their that is good for us."
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It seems consisted to me that the Lord was patient with the unbelievers who rejected him. Like the time the disciples wanted to call fire from heaven on the Samaritans because they rejected Him. But upon those cities he upbraided for hardness of heart, well, they were of Israel.
Even when they crucified him he asked for mercy because they did not know what they were doing, which right now brings to mind the idjits in your next post Geisha. At least about the not having a freakin clue as to what they are doing.
But as to the times and places of the lord's eventual judgment of us all, I believe it is most important to let him do it. He will have the timing right, and his disciples always seemed to get it wrong. When we judge people as coming up short we run the risk of becoming no better than the Pharisees. They sat in Moses' seat, but still managed it seems to get harsh reality from the Lord himself.
Are we any better if we in our own high-mindedness wrongly say of a non-Christian,"They should have believed by now." I think not. It would be a sad day if we condemn people like the disciples tried to do to the Samaritans without it being of the Lord.
Why the next thing you know we have developed some kind of bunker mentality and think that the whole world of unbelievers are damned and we are the only ones. Why we might even start calling the wrong people devils. we might even destroy the lives of those whop are only trying to help. WE MIGHT EVEN END UP BEING JUDGED AS WE JUDGE.....IT IS WRITTEN.
Just an aside, I wonder if you ever notice what Jesus does when He speaks. He speaks in parables. . . He says "Consider" consider this, consider that, He asks questions. He nails the entire human heart in a few phrases. I just love that about Him. He asks "Who do YOU say I am?" Same question He is still asking today.
He is always gently causing people to examine what they do believe and think, while often giving them an alternate explanation. Offered, but never forced. It is so cool.
Yeah, I like to cool stuff too. It has always fascinated me that he never did anything to harm anyone but people were still afraid of him. It got to the point where they were afraid to ask him any further questions because the had gotten tired of being trounced.
In relation to the topic, there is a very sad website, truly misguided, where people make videos denying the Holy Spirit. Thinking this will damn them, but not really believing in the first place. Mocking really. It isn't the unforgivable sin. . . . but they think it is. . . http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/
Unless idjits like these happen to be harming someone that I know I usually won't have much to say. It's sad to me that their mocking this recored seems to account for a better understanding of what is said than Wierwille's teaching on blasphemy of the spirit.
We rode the rail much closer in TWI IMHO. When I mentioned calling the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. . . or the name of the Jesus. . . I forget. . . . and
our understanding of the Holy Spirit. . . . we were closer to what Matthew is speaking of here. It was all wrapped up in such arrogance. Just consider it! :)
I hear you geisha, I've been considering it. In everything it seems a sad part of the human condition that it is easy for us to point fingers and hard to evaluate self.
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Pride cometh before a fall. Over and over again in the scripture people have seemed to think that they've had it made in the shade only to have someone tell them that they were lacking. And most often it seems they've rejected these calls to change.
It still holds true IMO that what God told Ezekiel is true. The righteous who sin will be held accountable for their sin.
But the wicked who turn to the Lord will be forgiven.
Then God said that the righteous would say that this isn't fair. But God told them that it was fair, they were wrong.
A person can talk about this changing with the new testament all they want, but where does it say this has changed? God has not changed. Paul feared the Lord's judgment and could say with a clear conscience that there was no blood on his hands, it sounds to me like he still applied these things as they were taught in thew Old Testament to himself.
Peter taught that Christians should know how to behave because of the Lord's fiery judgment too.
I can give a non-believer more of a brake than a believer because of these things. And on top of that, the scriptures say that among the believers, the teachers will get the more severe judgment. It looks to me like TWI leadership is in deep doo-doo.
Well, Jeff, when I first read the line "when is it not wise to talk about devils" it struck my funny bone.
I have catered many weddings and funerals. Boy, OH, boy have I heard some name calling. The majority of it has been done in whispers. Why, as the caterer, the families assume I need to know what they think about the other family is beyond me. I never thought to charge for that.
I have only one experience with a TWI leadership doing a funeral. It was for my brother. My brother was not associated with TWI. The Corps person was very kind and loving.
One of the things about this thread that is really gelling for me is that TWI leadership was trained to do many things that are damnable in a Biblical sense.
I really am not sure why I didn't see Wierwille's error in the blashphemy of the spirit doctrine right away!? I mean the Lord meant exactly what he said as it applied to what the Pharisees were saying about him. It couldn't be any more simple.
And later, TWI leadership felt that they had the liberty to use slander and every other dirty trick in the book to put down honest and good people with the spirit of God that were confronting TWI practices.
And now , in part, because of the refusal to except just reproof they are forever marked until they are judged by the fact that they said these good people were devilish. And they did everything in their power to destroy the lives of these folks and wreck their reputations too.
They blashemed the holy spirit and didn't even know it! But I'm certain that they were warned according to the mercies of a just God. There are many stories here of brave people who tried to get them to see the errors in what they were doing, even at their own peril. IMO it seems clear to me that if the Lord will ever personally reward anyone, it will be the ones who warned TWI leadership at their own peril.
GOD BLESS TWI misfits and malcontents! THE LORD IS JUST AND HAS AN EXCELLENT MEMORY.
I don't know about this Jeff? That sin was paticular to those witnessing JESUS doing those miracles by the power of God, and by saying it was of Beelzebub. I don't know how that translates into those confronting TWI practices to blaspheming The Holy Spirit.
In fact, I am pretty sure it doesn't. That is quite a judgement to make. Assuming quite a bit too. One, assuming The Holy Spirit was at work in the lives of those doing the confronting. Two, assuming not heeding that reproof is blasphemy.
If you take a look at the word blasphemy, it looks like a sin of speech. Which is why you hear people say taking the Lord's name in vain is blasphemous.
It is much more frightening to think of what we said about the Jesus of the church. That His name was actually a devil spirit. That actually IS calling someone of the devil. Quite a leap of faith in ones own view to take, don't you think?
We worship Jesus in the church. TWI called that idolatry. They then took it further and said Jesus' name used by Christians of the church(Their distinction). . . who we know as Lord. . . was really a devil.
IMHO THAT is how they teetered on the edge.
These people who did this. . . are not beyond salvation. It will take the power of God. No one will be delivered on their own. . . but, you can still pray for them. . . even if it hurts.
In my first post I tried to call What the Hey out for claiming that he perceived "real devils" at work here at the Greasespot.I'm also attempting to deal with TWI leadership habit of calling things that they do not like to be devilish.
I agree with you 100% as to calling the Jesus of the church to be a devil. Because if through the Holy Spirit, Jesus is present in any group I feel that calling that Jesus a devil fits the sin that the Lord says was unforgivable. Especially when a concerted effort is made to spin-doctor them into appearing evil and also fighting the things that the lord is working in the church.
I think that it's true whether or not their happens to be signs and wonders happening for all to see. The most important single thing seems to me to be the Spirit's presence. Hence the unforgivableness of the sin in calling the Spirit a devil especially when coupled with fighting against God's workings.
Now if the Spirit works reproof, then I suppose that calling it devilish is not good too. But it's not just in the heading of reproof or not IMO. It is also in the blasphemy of those who make this tremendously arrogant assumption that because they don't like what they hear, that they will announce to all that "it is a devil."
If I understand you correctly in your last post you seem to think that I'm refering to those who will not accept reproof from TWI. For me it is not just that alone. It is also that IMO TWI has a long history of destroying those who reprove or rebuke them. And also that they have a long history of accusing groups and individuals who did those things of having devils.
And I happen to think that Wierwille's bogus teaching on blasphemy of the spirit has left them unaware of the possible consequences of their actions.
Geisha, does that help clarify things at all, or not?
Or if I don't really understand your last post and perhaps am just rambling could you please clarify it for me?
In my first post I tried to call What the Hey out for claiming that he perceived "real devils" at work here at the Greasespot.I'm also attempting to deal with TWI leadership habit of calling things that they do not like to be devilish.
I agree with you 100% as to calling the Jesus of the church to be a devil. Because if through the Holy Spirit, Jesus is present in any group I feel that calling that Jesus a devil fits the sin that the Lord says was unforgivable. Especially when a concerted effort is made to spin-doctor them into appearing evil and also fighting the things that the lord is working in the church.
I think that it's true whether or not their happens to be signs and wonders happening for all to see. The most important single thing seems to me to be the Spirit's presence. Hence the unforgivableness of the sin in calling the Spirit a devil especially when coupled with fighting against God's workings.
Now if the Spirit works reproof, then I suppose that calling it devilish is not good too. But it's not just in the heading of reproof or not IMO. It is also in the blasphemy of those who make this tremendously arrogant assumption that because they don't like what they hear, that they will announce to all that "it is a devil."
If I understand you correctly in your last post you seem to think that I'm refering to those who will not accept reproof from TWI. For me it is not just that alone. It is also that IMO TWI has a long history of destroying those who reprove or rebuke them. And also that they have a long history of accusing groups and individuals who did those things of having devils.
And I happen to think that Wierwille's bogus teaching on blasphemy of the spirit has left them unaware of the possible consequences of their actions.
Geisha, does that help clarify things at all, or not?
Or if I don't really understand your last post and perhaps am just rambling could you please clarify it for me?
Jeff,
That did help to clarify things thanks. . . I can speak with no authority on the unforgivable sin. I do not believe that the sin unto death is the same thing. . . . and I am not even sure you can commit the unforgivable sin today. The circumstances in which the Pharisees did this are not available today. Jesus is not in the flesh here on the earth. . . so, I don't really know.
That said. . . I can only discuss and try to understand WITH you.
What the leaders in TWI and your splinter group did, were terrible things, Jeff, . . . . that is a given. But, here is something to consider. I did the same things.
Maybe not to the degree or in the same manner, but it was every bit as grevious.
I was stiff necked and hardened in TWI. I was a very puffed up and often a mean person. In fact, I didn't know true repentance. I was very busy justifying my sin with twisted scripture. I loved darkness rather than light. This is true Jeff. How did I get that way? That is something I have had to think about.
It didn't happen over night. It was a slow imperceptible change. . . gradual. I was a gentle person when I took the class. I cried over "After School Specials". . . "Phone commercials". . . Goodness, I could not say a mean word to anyone.
I knew the difference between right and wrong. In my heart I knew. But, I was weak willed and not yet brought to repentance. I heard something that tickled my ears. . . and because I was burdened by sin. . . but not yet led to repentance, I fell into the trap. I was primed for false teaching. I am no better than those who also fell into the trap.
I truly wanted to know God. . . to love Him. . . heck, I always had in some way or another. But, I got tripped up. . . caught up in false teaching. I never came to a saving faith in TWI. . . because it wasn't there. It was an easy believism. Not real faith. Does that make sense to you?
I said the same things about the Jesus of the church. Angrily as a matter of fact. I can remember being a WOW and listening to music mocking the trinity. I sang right along with this attitude that I can only describe as haughty superiority. Those in the Christian church believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. That is what we were mocking. Calling idolatrous. Saying was a devil Spirit. We assumed these people ALL tricked.
The reproof that was given to those in TWI did often come from outside the group. . . our persecutors. . . remember? That is not what we are speaking of here. . . we are talking about those in the group. Very few of us were actually born again. I would venture to say. . . that had we not been born again before TWI. . . chances are high. . . it did not happen in TWI.
So, to assume that The Holy Spirit was working in the lives of those trying to reprove this oragnization from within. . . is just that. . . a big assumption. I don't know that is the case. I don't know that it isn't.
To charge someone with having commited a sin that is not pardonable. . . is a big deal. God is able to protect our hearts and deliver us from this stuff. It is always to His glory when this happens. Always. . . He must be glorified. . . look for that, but look closely.
Now, God can use whatever He wants. . . He used Caiphas to prophesy. He used Baalam (A false prophet) to warn Israel. He used Baalams donkey to reprove Baalam. He used Paul's thorn in the flesh. . . He used Paul's time in prison to pen some of the epistles. . . John's exile in Patmos to write Revelation.
He used the death of Christ to redeem us.
So, I am not saying that God was not at work in TWI. But, the way He was working might be different than we understand or how we think God should work. We just cannot assume that people are beyond salvation, or that anything can thwart God's purposes for His elect.
God has used my time in TWI to teach me many great things. I was blinded, and He has slowly and carefully delivered me. He has shown me the depth of my blindness and the why's of it. . . used it to be glorified in my deliverance. I could NEVER-EVER-NEVER-EVER have come out of this without His work in my life. I take no credit in any of it. . . I can't. The things He has used. . . are astounding.
I didn't just go find a new theology I couldn't argue with. . . or continue on in what I liked or sounded reasonable from TWI. . HE HE HE stripped me of all of it. . . But, He did it. . . not me. He has led me to Him by The Holy Spirit.
I don't know what God has worked in the lives of others. . . or what He will use to be glorified or for their deliverance. We were terribly close to many bad and evil things in TWI. . . .everyday. . . we dwelt in the land of false teaching. . . not a good habitat. I know what we said and did was wrong.
But, I am DAILY brought to worship when I consider what He delivered me from. Who knows, but Him, who else He is working these same things in. . . not me.
All I can do is pray fervently for others. With God all things are possible. I can't do it. . . He can. . .
Does any of this make sense?
Now, to tell someone it is WRONG to call things "Devils" is right on the money. . . but to assume anyone is past redemption is to assume we know and understand what God is working in others lives. . . I can't go there. I just don't know. . . I know to pray for them. . . with a pure and hopeful heart.
I am genuinely interested in what you are saying. . . the only thing I took issue with was that some were marked forever. Only God knows that. Consider if you will. . . if we were led so dangerously close to the edge with this teaching. . . what else took us there? Couldn't just be this one thing. . . how bad does it have to really be to get us to this point?
I have been in situations where the application of these things seemed cut and dry. For instance, any one of the times where my splinter group leader did things that were evil and manipulative on virtually every level. And to top it off he is so in tune to the casual conversation in the group and has taught his followers to be super sensitive to every utterance and report back that he can effectively squash any opposition before it begins.
But in spite of these things seeming exceedingly clear to me as far as understanding Barnard's actions right now, when looking at the consequences in the scriptures for these things when the Lord Himself judges they are not so clear to me.
The fact that even the apostle Paul reported looking ahead at these future events as "seeing through a glass darkly" speaks to my heart that I am not suppose to have a clear picture as to what the Lord Jesus will do to them. Another reference is when the scriptures speaking of the Lord Himself revealing the hidden things in mens' hearts at His coming.
So in all these things I find it to be wise to not say too much and wait for the Lord. But if I feel compelled to refer to part of Barnard's doctrine as devilish it certainly seems that it is good that I must understand that I may be held accountable for it. And that is part of why I called out What The Hey. It didn't seem to me that he knew that.
And Geisha, I'm happy to explore these things with you.
But as far as the worst of TWI abuse goes, including the times that leadership manipulated and destroyed those who perhaps were by the spirit reproving them, yeah, IMO those offenders are forever marked by their wickedness until the Lord himself takes it out of their hides.
But with such emotion filled sentences the human tendency is to go too far and fall into error too IMO. But on the other hand.....
Wierwille tuned the Grace of God (scriptures and the name of Christ, etc.) into lasciviousness.
My former splinter group broke down the natural family order until the men were castrated and the women were thinking of Barnard as their children's "true" father.
I have no qualms of conscience in calling both these things damnable and devilish.
But as far as the worst of TWI abuse goes, including the times that leadership manipulated and destroyed those who perhaps were by the spirit reproving them, yeah, IMO those offenders are forever marked by their wickedness until the Lord himself takes it out of their hides.
But with such emotion filled sentences the human tendency is to go too far and fall into error too IMO. But on the other hand.....
Wierwille tuned the Grace of God (scriptures and the name of Christ, etc.) into lasciviousness.
My former splinter group broke down the natural family order until the men were castrated and the women were thinking of Barnard as their children's "true" father.
I have no qualms of conscience in calling both these things damnable and devilish.
Oh no, I agree. The scriptures cover this in great detail. . . false teachers whose destruction was from long ago. . . . I was thinking about that in relation to this topic.
That would be interesting to hear your take on. . . I have a rather forceful one :) on false teachers. . .
How does that relate do you think? Does it? I am curious ?
The subject of false teachers.....hhhmmm..... Yeah, I suppose it can relate to this topic.
If the false teacher is accusing others of having devils, you bet it applies IMO. As a matter of fact, since I haven't heard anything otherwise it seems entirely possible that this thread DIRECTLY APPLIES TO SUCH A SITUATION. :P
But as I said before, it is all to easy to go too far in this sort of consideration.
Since nobody saw fit to clarify their position in regards to seeing "real devils" I suppose that we are free to figure it out for ourselves. :B)
But I also think that most folks who throw around such verses that boldly concern false teachers and/or devils throw these things around all too freely. Perhaps bringing upon themselves the very judgment that they seek to put on others.
So in matters of such importance I'm going to have to be more deliberate in my statements than my emotions alone might tend to have me be.
The subject of false teachers.....hhhmmm..... Yeah, I suppose it can relate to this topic.
If the false teacher is accusing others of having devils, you bet it applies IMO. As a matter of fact, since I haven't heard anything otherwise it seems entirely possible that this thread DIRECTLY APPLIES TO SUCH A SITUATION. :P
But as I said before, it is all to easy to go too far in this sort of consideration.
Since nobody saw fit to clarify their position in regards to seeing "real devils" I suppose that we are free to figure it out for ourselves. :B)
But I also think that most folks who throw around such verses that boldly concern false teachers and/or devils throw these things around all too freely. Perhaps bringing upon themselves the very judgment that they seek to put on others.
So in matters of such importance I'm going to have to be more deliberate in my statements than my emotions alone might tend to have me be.
In many ways, yes those verses are thrown around to freely. I would submit to you that concerning VP or your splinter group leader or any offshoot of TWI that is NOT the case.
I have seen true ministers make an error and be quickly maligned as a false teacher, and yes, then I think one could then be in dangerous seas. Just like with our maligning the Jesus of the church, true ministers are called of God. We are in essence calling someone of God. . . evil.
However, the scriptures spend much time and effort in warning on the topic of false teachers. We, of all people should understand and heed these verses because we have been decieved by such men. It IS possible to jump from one false teaching to another. . . decieved again and again. "Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
It takes coming to the Lord and a knowledge of Him to have that veil taken away. We never did that in TWI, and I venture to say the offshoots are not any better, although they may speak as if they have a more personal knowledge of Him. They even give lip service to some kind of relationship with Him. But, if we ourselves "Know" Him we will be able to spot this for what it is. There are certain things that are easy give-aways. :)
We were fond of knowledge in TWI. Nothing wrong with learning, but our foundation must be right. Jesus Christ is our foundation. If we build on anything else it is a rickety building. It must be a right knowledge of Him. . . not a wrong understanding.
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Holy Spirit. . . He is the one who points and guides us to Jesus and to all truth. Not our knowledge or theology. He glorifies the Lord. . . that is how you can tell it is the real thing. Listen to what others tell you. Is the Lord glorified or denied??
Spiritual pride is abominable. What you describe in your splinter group. . . reeks of it. A man is glorified. . . No? You can't take a carnal life and join it with divine faith. You can't profess Christianity and wed it with the corruption of sin. Jesus is the only one able to bear the weight of that sin. That must be our foundation. That is the church's foundation.
False teachers teach unholy doctrines. . . or doctrines of demons. . . The Spirit of Christ dwells in all true believers. We are Holy by profession. We are holy in our behavior and heart. We are deceived when we think of ourselves as the temple of the Holy Spirit, yet are unconcerned about our personal holiness, or the peace and purity of the church.
When we have such a high opinion of ourselves or our own wisdom. . . we are deceived. Self-flattery is deception. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God, it is not knowledge, but vanity and weakness. This alone should teach us to be humble before the Lord. Think about that in terms of TWI or your splinter.
This should cause us to be willing to be taught BY God. . . He holds nothing good from us. He wants us to prepare in this life for our lives in heaven. We must ask for a humble heart. . . no matter the cost now.
Lord, take us from sin and sorrow and guide us to the Father's house!!! This may involve losing some of our confidence in our knowledge and in our theology. It is worth it. Believe it or not. . . there can be great delight in this.
False teachers replace the simplicity in Christ with endless rules or endless sin. I really believe we have to look at these things. . . deeply and with God to guide us. Not men. . . not books. . . not theology our minds are not able to argue with. With the Holy Spirit to enlighten.
Then we do need to speak out and warn. It IS emotional Jeff. . . . our relationship with Jesus is a LOVE relationship. Anyone or thing that stands opposed to Him will bring up emotion. It will bring things from the depth of your heart. It will bring warnings because we love people.
Saying those kinds of things just like you did is tremendously better than any unsubstantiated running off at the mouth about devils, that's for sure. :)
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JeffSjo
I've been thinking on this thread a lot.
I can't say much now, except RAMIFICATIONS.
I hope this thread develops into more later. I probably will expound on the "speaking against the spirit of God" part later.
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JeffSjo
One of the things about this thread that is really gelling for me is that TWI leadership was trained to do many things that are damnable in a Biblical sense.
I really am not sure why I didn't see Wierwille's error in the blashphemy of the spirit doctrine right away!? I mean the Lord meant exactly what he said as it applied to what the Pharisees were saying about him. It couldn't be any more simple.
And later, TWI leadership felt that they had the liberty to use slander and every other dirty trick in the book to put down honest and good people with the spirit of God that were confronting TWI practices.
And now , in part, because of the refusal to except just reproof they are forever marked until they are judged by the fact that they said these good people were devilish. And they did everything in their power to destroy the lives of these folks and wreck their reputations too.
They blashemed the holy spirit and didn't even know it! But I'm certain that they were warned according to the mercies of a just God. There are many stories here of brave people who tried to get them to see the errors in what they were doing, even at their own peril. IMO it seems clear to me that if the Lord will ever personally reward anyone, it will be the ones who warned TWI leadership at their own peril.
GOD BLESS TWI misfits and malcontents! THE LORD IS JUST AND HAS AN EXCELLENT MEMORY.
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Mister P-Mosh
I have discovered who VPW ripped off his devil spirit ideas from. This person:
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JeffSjo
I really laughed at the SNL skit Mister P-Mosh. Quite a bit over the years. But in a more serious note.
It seems true to me that many non-Christians have every right to make fun of Christians who throw "devilish" about every time they face something that they do not like. SNL does not seem far off the mark in this sense to me, many Christians hardly seem to have more depth and compassion than "The Church Lady." IMO all anybody has to do is apply a little common sense to this religious situation.
I believe that the Bible is telling the truth on this subject and I endeavor to handle the topic in a manner that is good. But if I were to ever see anybody speak to another with the same effect as the Apostle Paul did in Acts 13 then the "hand of God" being with the speaker would be plain for all to see. But that still isn't taking into account all the fraudulent miracles out there that when exposed give Christianity a bad name.
And another factor is all the people who in the course of many centuries who have been persecuted and put to death even in the Lord's name. Often times this Christian initiated persecution has included false propaganda, encouraging in many different words, "fighting the Devil."
But just like What the Hey's initial sentence that inspired me to make this thread, these things do harm to anybody who has to suffer the put-down and the one who takes it upon themselves to call another "devilish."
The speaker will be hurt big-time if as the Bible says, the speaker will not be forgiven for calling a person who is inspired by the spirit of God a devilish person.
This last weekend it has continued to amaze me that I ever believed Wierwille's handling of Mat. 12 was correct. The Lord was being told that he had a devil. And he rebuked the accusers as directly as possible, telling them that they would not be forgiven for what they were doing. Now that I see this record simply, Wierwille's ideas of "seed of the serpent" that he introduced in PFAL from these verses only seem like a bunch of gobbledeegook that only serves to confuse what was in effect; a very simple scriptural narrative.
(Edited for spelling and clarity, or lack thereof)
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geisha779
I just saw this. LOL
Gotta tell you, I laughed when I read the intial comment that promted your thread. It was directed at me and all I thought was, no doubt he was in TWI.
I insulted an idol is all. People take it personally. I thought I handled it rather well. :)
It didn't hurt me. There is no ill will toward the poster. I feel empathy for him/her.
But, you do have a really excellent point. We did have a rather ugly habit of arrogance in general and a fall back position of the devil. Especially toward the Christian faith . Not only did we feel that they were ignorant, and we knew more scripture and the "Truth". . . . but often our superior attitude allowed us to judge the church as idolators. We did this from the perspective of an entirely differing faith. Different understanding of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We did this from outside the church.
It got soooooo bad that at one point I think we called the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. Now, that is dangerous territory. Now, you are on some serious shakey ground.
Having come full circle, and seen the same scriptures in a new light, having a new understanding. . . . and having met and prayed and worshipped with genuine Christians. . . I have truly repented. I understand WHY they believe as they do. . . I see the same God they do. . . . I know so many Christians. God has allowed me to take communion with the same people I mocked. To see the love they have for me, each other, and even those who mock them. Patience, because they came to the table empty and were filled. Not of their own doing. Amazing love and patience. Hope and genuine long term prayer for others. I am always undone by God's people.
It is so difficult to explain, but, TWI and its offshoots are so different than the Christian church. They still have a condscending attitude about great truths that the church is missing. It is so ironic. . . . they are still our brothers and sisters. . . just misguided??
NO. . . they are not misguided. . . they are guided by a right understanding. . . not hidden from God's own people. They belong to the Most High. They are His servants. What does that make us? Mockers? The enlightened ones? or brothers?
I used to send my son to a bible camp every summer. BUT, I would tell this poor kid. . . . Jesus isn't God. . . . they don't know what they are talking about. . . come to us so we can fix what they teach you???????????? Why send him somewhere I thought was so misguided? I don't know. . . thought we belonged, but they were just wrong. I got involved and met the people, most amazing place. It took until he was 10 for me to start realizing it was ME there was something wrong with. My understanding. It was the fruit in the lives of these people that served.
They were not condescending.
Ever have a 10 year old look at you with a little bit of bewilderment mixed with pity and gently correct your bible understanding?? Not fun. Humbles you.
This throwing around of "devil spirits" "Discernment" and the mocking. . . it comes from a place of arrogance. God doesn't dwell there. It is confidence in our own knowledge or understanding that breeds such contempt. It is a dangerous payground.
But, God He is so merciful. He does deliver people out of this hornets nest of confusion.
The one thing that does always give me serious pause though. . . was our handling of the Holy Spirit. Kinda what you were alluding to in Mat 12. Little scary when you consider some called the Jesus of the church a devil spirit.
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JeffSjo
Dear Geisha,
I laughed when I read how you handled the initial comment. But I told What the Hey once before that the more that he put folks down, the more that I recognized him for what he really was. And once he threw the "real devil" comment out it seemed like it was a good time for a "throw down" on my part anyway.
I remember TWI taking shots at another Jesus too. Considering how the Lord handled a similar situation it does make it a scary topic IMO. But considering what the Lord said was at stake it seems to me to be an overdue(perhaps) or timely doctrinal consideration.
I'm real glad to finally have your take on this thread Geisha, because the post that prompted my response was directed at you. :)
Peace,
JEFF
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geisha779
Jeff
Maybe you could expound a bit on your understanding of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 12. I am genuinely interested.
You alluded to the issue as being serious.Some things not being forgiven. Now, remember, it doesn't matter what VP taught. . . . or anyone, I am curious what Jesus is saying to YOU in these scriptures! :)
Here are some simple basic understandings from bible gateway.
22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Jesus presents a world sharply divided into God's kingdom and the devil's kingdom, and indicates through various arguments that one cannot be working for both kingdoms at the same time.
Jesus first asks why the devil would work at cross-purposes with himself (vv. 25-26). Perhaps the devil might permit a few exorcisms to bring fame to a sorcerer and gain ground in the long run; Jesus' widespread expulsion of demons, however, constitutes no minor strategic retreat but a wholesale assault on Satan's kingdom on earth. The necessity of concord or harmony for survival represents common wisdom in ancient society (unfortunately sometimes ignored by Christians today).
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Jesus next questions why his opponents single out his ministry of exorcism while approving exorcisms performed by their own disciples (v. 27). Jewish exorcists were common and employed a variety of magical techniques (see comment on 8:17; compare Meier 1980:134-35), quite in contrast to Jesus, whose mere command the demons obeyed in fear.
Third, if Jesus was driving out demons by God's Spirit, this action constituted proof that the time of the kingdom was upon them (12:28). Most Pharisees apparently believed that the prophetic Spirit had been quenched when the last biblical prophets died and that the Spirit would be restored only in the time of the kingdom (Keener 1991b:77-84). Although many Pharisees apparently rejected miracles as proof of truth (Bonsirven 1964:16), Jesus summons them to consider an alternative explanation for his miracles, namely, that the promised time of the Spirit has come. Indeed, the Greek construction here could be rendered "since I drive out demons by the Spirit, the kingdom has come on the scene." Matthew rightly interprets "finger of God" (Lk 11:20 and Q) as God's Spirit, showing that Jesus is the promised harbinger of the Spirit (12:18), the first agent of God's kingdom. This makes good sense: as the climax of history approaches, the forces of God's kingdom and the devil's are arrayed in battle against one another.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Fourth, Jesus had defeated the strong man, "binding" him (tying him up) so that he could plunder the possessions in the strong man's house (v. 29). That is to say, Jesus invaded Satan's domain and defeated him so he could recapture the human hearts that Satan had enslaved through demon possession or other means. Far from being authorized by the demons' ruler, Jesus had authority over the devil-one spirit that no mere magical incantation could thwart (compare Test. Sol. 6:8)! Since Jesus claims a specific act of binding prior to his ministry of exorcism, he probably refers back to his defeat of Satan at the temptation (using language from Is 49:24-25). Jesus is saying that his integrity before God in defeating temptation has given him power over Satan.
In some modern circles, attempts at exorcism dabble in imaginary demons or recite formulas taken out of context from Scripture. Although God honors faith regardless of the formula used, exorcists do not need to say "I bind you" to demons before expelling them; they just need to make sure they are walking in integrity before God (Acts 19:11-20). In establishing the first stage of his kingdom, Jesus already defeated the devil, and he has delegated his authority over evil spirits to those who are truly his followers, those who submit to his reign. The final "binding" of Satan awaits his future defeat (compare 13:30; Rev 20:2; Twelftree 1986:391-92); thus it is possible that his binding before the end of the age may have caught him by surprise (see 8:29).
Finally, this list of arguments concludes with Jesus' warning that whoever was not on his side was on the other side (12:30). This saying also reflects common wisdom in both Greek (compare Suet. Julius 75) and Jewish (compare Flusser 1988:510-11) life. Jesus allows no would-be disciples to straddle the fence: one either follows him or opposes him, just as one does with the devil.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jewish teachers acknowledged that deliberate sin against God's law ("sin with a high hand" or "defiantly"-see Num 15:30-31; Deut 29:18-20; CD 8.8), such as deliberate blasphemy against God, was normally unforgivable (Jub. 15:34; 1QS 7.15-17, 22-23). Even such a sin as Peter's denial of Jesus (Mt 26:69-75) clearly does not count in the unforgivable category (28:10, 16-20); the context of blaspheming against the Spirit here refers specifically to the sin of the Pharisees, who are on the verge of becoming incapable of repentance. The sign of their hardness of heart is their determination to reject any proof for Jesus' divine mission, to the extent that they even attribute God's attestation of Jesus to the devil.
The equivalent today would be someone who remained so committed to rejecting Christ that she determined to find alternative explanations for any obvious proof (such as miracles) attesting him. Even in what seems to be that case, however, Paul exhorts one of his students and coworkers to remember that we humans cannot judge who has forever crossed that line (1 Tim 1:12-20). Not uncommonly young Christians read about the "unforgivable sin" and fear they have committed it. We therefore must reiterate the point in this context: the sin is unforgivable only because it reflects a heart too hard to repent. Those who desire to repent, troubled by the fear that they may have committed this sin, plainly have not committed it!
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
That one's speech reveals one's heart may represent conventional Jewish wisdom, Jesus here indicates that even the most careless words spoken without thought will testify concerning one's character in the judgment day. God does not listen only to what we say during Sunday-morning church services.
In this context Jesus is saying that one expects people like these Pharisees to blaspheme the Holy Spirit because their hearts are so corrupt. Because the Pharisees appeared righteous to most other observers (compare Lk 16:15), Jesus' harsh condemnation of their behavior sounds an even greater warning to those today who reject the truth of Christ yet sit in churches.
38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Because God has already provided the world with sufficient evidence, he has the right to expect faith from those who have heard the truth. It is important to be ready to respond to people's objections to the faith, but sometimes we must also point out where the challengers ignore evidence already available to them. Jesus had already been providing signs, and his opponents were disputing their validity (vv. 22-24). The demand for a sign may recall Pharaoh's challenge to Moses for a sign .
The whole of Matthew 12:39-45 constitutes Jesus' response to his opponents' charges (wicked . . . generation in vv. 39, 45 frames the section). Jesus explains that his generation needs no greater sign that he is from God than his own message.
He first insists that the only sign the sign seekers would be given was the sign that God supplied to the Ninevites: Jonah's restoration after three days on the edge of death (vv. 39-40). One should keep in mind, however, that the Ninevites did not witness Jonah's resuscitation for themselves; indeed, there is no evidence he even recounted it to them (Jon 3:1-4; compare 3 Macc 6:8; Justin Dial. 107). The Ninevites experienced the effects of a divine sign they never recognized, and this may be Matthew's point (not clear in Lk 11:29, 32): the Ninevites repented without recognizing a sign, whereas Jesus' opponents were too hardhearted to repent despite the many signs he had been giving them (compare Mt 11:20-24; Jon 1:16; 4:2). All the Ninevites needed was Jonah's preaching of the truth, yet Jesus was greater than Jonah (Mt 12:41; compare v. 6).
Jesus' second example is that Solomon's wisdom was enough to prove his divine appointment, and that a distant queen heard and came to him (as some Gentile seekers had done with Jesus-2:1-12; 1 Kings 10:1-13). Yet one greater than Solomon was there. The images of the Ninevites and the queen of Sheba condemning Jesus' generation in Israel at the judgment would have horrified Jesus' hearers, many of whom expected Israel's final vindication against the nations on judgment day.
At least part of the point of the story of the queen of Sheba in context is Solomon's witness to the nations, and God's concern for Gentiles stands at the heart of the book of Jonah as well. By appealing to two repentant Gentiles in the Hebrew Bible, Matthew reemphasizes the Gentile mission: those who know little about Israel's God (like the Ninevites or the queen of Sheba, or the Magi earlier in his Gospel) are often least arrogant, hence most responsive to the gospel.
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Matthew specifically places this paragraph within the discussion of this wicked generation (vv. 39, 45) and uses it (unlike Luke) to conclude Jesus' response to his opponents. Whatever else the parable might say about exorcism, Jesus' point is what it says to that generation: although Jesus was exorcising the generation, its evil leaders were setting it up to be demonized all the more by rejecting Jesus' reign (compare Jeremias 1972:106; Argyle 1963:99).
If one translates the passage literally, a key sentence may be conditional: the demons will return if the house is left empty (Jeremias 1971:154). Were Jesus' opponents accusing him of being in league with Satan through his exorcisms (v. 24)? Jesus here returns the charge: it is they, not he, who are redemonizing their generation, for they leave the house empty in which God, the only true alternative to the devil, should reign (compare 23:38-39).
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
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geisha779
Just an aside, I wonder if you ever notice what Jesus does when He speaks. He speaks in parables. . . He says "Consider" consider this, consider that, He asks questions. He nails the entire human heart in a few phrases. I just love that about Him. He asks "Who do YOU say I am?" Same question He is still asking today.
He is always gently causing people to examine what they do believe and think, while often giving them an alternate explanation. Offered, but never forced. It is so cool.
In relation to the topic, there is a very sad website, truly misguided, where people make videos denying the Holy Spirit. Thinking this will damn them, but not really believing in the first place. Mocking really. It isn't the unforgivable sin. . . . but they think it is. . . http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/
We rode the rail much closer in TWI IMHO. When I mentioned calling the Jesus of the church a devil spirit. . . or the name of the Jesus. . . I forget. . . . and
our understanding of the Holy Spirit. . . . we were closer to what Matthew is speaking of here. It was all wrapped up in such arrogance. Just consider it! :)
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JeffSjo
Don't worry about me worrying about what Wierwille said Geisha. :) One of my purposes in this thread is to point out that the doctrine that Wierwille introduced using these scriptures totally misses the point of these scriptures. I believe that for TWI's benefit I am sharing that not only did Wierwille miss the point, but that leadership's manner became damnable because in their arrogance they have not only spoken against the Spirit of God but have destroyed lives in the very same manner that the Pharisees are recorded as going after the Lord in Mt12.
All the things that you've said in this last section will take me some time to take in. But even without in-depth analysis on my part I believe that the lord showed them how their attempts to discredit him in truth only showed how they made no sense whatsoever and that they were missing out on the blessings that He actually were bringing to God's people.
Earlier in this chapter the scriptures record that the Pharisees were already scheming on how they might destroy Him. It is sad to me that TWI leadership has sought to destroy people that were trying to help them in the same manner. Their have been many accounts here of people who tried to confront TWI in the old days. And by all accounts here TWI has only gotten much worse since the eighties which was my time of association with TWI.
Since What the Hey took it upon himself to speak of those that had "real devils" right here at the Greasespot I thought it might do him some good to explore the options. In my thinking these are two of the options....
1. What the Hey was getting all worked up about "real devils" for the wrong reasons and was actually fighting against good people and bringing the judgment of God upon himself by fighting these devils that he thinks he sees. If I understood anything about the biblical doctrine of a spiritual contest it is that when we are deceived off of God's Word we have already lost. If those who are fighting devils are just as wrong as the Pharisees were then they need someone to tell them that they are making no sense whatsoever and will be judged for their obstinate refusal to see that what they are doing is wrong.
2. What the Hey might be willing to defend his accusation of seeing "real devils" WHAT THE HECK What the Hey? I've given you this chance anyway.
One thing about this record that I'm reminded of is that it was not academic. The Lord himself was working and people were taking sides as a result. I believe that our judgment will be as the Lord has said in these verses. So it would behoove any of us to think about our own words. This is much better IMO than any pointing at other folks outside of what is going on right here and now.
It is evident to me that all of us are capable of pointing some imaginary folks out there somewhere who've rejected the Lord. But what about the things that are going on right here and right now? Are not we taking sides and are not some thinking that they are fighting "real devils" even now? Do they even know what they are rejecting before they resort to every nasty trick in the book to put another down?
In my former splinter group they rejected every chance that I gave them to stop fighting the devil that they percieved and stand corrected on their bogus doctrines. They have foolishly decided that it is o.k. to follow a man who has allowed ten young women to in one of the girl's own words to be "married to the christ in Victor." They have decided to follow a man who before they kicked me out had made several false prophecies concerning the Lord's return. Most all of them has given everything in their own life over to a man who IMO really fears and despises them. But in their mind, to not listen to me was successfully fighting the devil. pffhhh!
I'm giving What the Hey a chance to make his case out here in broad daylight where we all can see it.
I believe that in like manner we need to give the non-Christians a brake and focus on bogus Christian doctrines and practices. In my mind it seems plain that corrupt belief is more damnable than those who haven't heard enough to believe yet.
Who can say if and when someone may believe in Christ? not me.
But some of these people's words condemn themselves and others through bad doctrines and nasty practices.
Again, it is about doing, and I intend to do my best to focus on right here and now.
As I said in my profile," Their may be some fellowship out their that is good for us."
(added in editing)
It seems consisted to me that the Lord was patient with the unbelievers who rejected him. Like the time the disciples wanted to call fire from heaven on the Samaritans because they rejected Him. But upon those cities he upbraided for hardness of heart, well, they were of Israel.
Even when they crucified him he asked for mercy because they did not know what they were doing, which right now brings to mind the idjits in your next post Geisha. At least about the not having a freakin clue as to what they are doing.
But as to the times and places of the lord's eventual judgment of us all, I believe it is most important to let him do it. He will have the timing right, and his disciples always seemed to get it wrong. When we judge people as coming up short we run the risk of becoming no better than the Pharisees. They sat in Moses' seat, but still managed it seems to get harsh reality from the Lord himself.
Are we any better if we in our own high-mindedness wrongly say of a non-Christian,"They should have believed by now." I think not. It would be a sad day if we condemn people like the disciples tried to do to the Samaritans without it being of the Lord.
Why the next thing you know we have developed some kind of bunker mentality and think that the whole world of unbelievers are damned and we are the only ones. Why we might even start calling the wrong people devils. we might even destroy the lives of those whop are only trying to help. WE MIGHT EVEN END UP BEING JUDGED AS WE JUDGE.....IT IS WRITTEN.
(edited for spelling)
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JeffSjo
Yeah, I like to cool stuff too. It has always fascinated me that he never did anything to harm anyone but people were still afraid of him. It got to the point where they were afraid to ask him any further questions because the had gotten tired of being trounced.
Unless idjits like these happen to be harming someone that I know I usually won't have much to say. It's sad to me that their mocking this recored seems to account for a better understanding of what is said than Wierwille's teaching on blasphemy of the spirit.
I hear you geisha, I've been considering it. In everything it seems a sad part of the human condition that it is easy for us to point fingers and hard to evaluate self.
(added in editing)
Pride cometh before a fall. Over and over again in the scripture people have seemed to think that they've had it made in the shade only to have someone tell them that they were lacking. And most often it seems they've rejected these calls to change.
It still holds true IMO that what God told Ezekiel is true. The righteous who sin will be held accountable for their sin.
But the wicked who turn to the Lord will be forgiven.
Then God said that the righteous would say that this isn't fair. But God told them that it was fair, they were wrong.
A person can talk about this changing with the new testament all they want, but where does it say this has changed? God has not changed. Paul feared the Lord's judgment and could say with a clear conscience that there was no blood on his hands, it sounds to me like he still applied these things as they were taught in thew Old Testament to himself.
Peter taught that Christians should know how to behave because of the Lord's fiery judgment too.
I can give a non-believer more of a brake than a believer because of these things. And on top of that, the scriptures say that among the believers, the teachers will get the more severe judgment. It looks to me like TWI leadership is in deep doo-doo.
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kimberly
When is it not wise to talk about devils...?.....maybe funerals and weddings. That is the first thing that came to mind.
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JeffSjo
O.K., I can certainly go along with that Kimberly.
Now I'm wondering if things like that were commonplace in TWI.
I suppose it is not wise to stagger down the street and ramble incoherently about them too.
Sorry Kimberly, no offense intended, I guess your comment just struck a little bit of my funny bone.
I'm really wondering if TWI ministers ever tried to show off by talking about devils at funerals and weddings now....hhhmmm.
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kimberly
Well, Jeff, when I first read the line "when is it not wise to talk about devils" it struck my funny bone.
I have catered many weddings and funerals. Boy, OH, boy have I heard some name calling. The majority of it has been done in whispers. Why, as the caterer, the families assume I need to know what they think about the other family is beyond me. I never thought to charge for that.
I have only one experience with a TWI leadership doing a funeral. It was for my brother. My brother was not associated with TWI. The Corps person was very kind and loving.
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geisha779
I don't know about this Jeff? That sin was paticular to those witnessing JESUS doing those miracles by the power of God, and by saying it was of Beelzebub. I don't know how that translates into those confronting TWI practices to blaspheming The Holy Spirit.
In fact, I am pretty sure it doesn't. That is quite a judgement to make. Assuming quite a bit too. One, assuming The Holy Spirit was at work in the lives of those doing the confronting. Two, assuming not heeding that reproof is blasphemy.
If you take a look at the word blasphemy, it looks like a sin of speech. Which is why you hear people say taking the Lord's name in vain is blasphemous.
It is much more frightening to think of what we said about the Jesus of the church. That His name was actually a devil spirit. That actually IS calling someone of the devil. Quite a leap of faith in ones own view to take, don't you think?
We worship Jesus in the church. TWI called that idolatry. They then took it further and said Jesus' name used by Christians of the church(Their distinction). . . who we know as Lord. . . was really a devil.
IMHO THAT is how they teetered on the edge.
These people who did this. . . are not beyond salvation. It will take the power of God. No one will be delivered on their own. . . but, you can still pray for them. . . even if it hurts.
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JeffSjo
Dear Geisha,
In my first post I tried to call What the Hey out for claiming that he perceived "real devils" at work here at the Greasespot.I'm also attempting to deal with TWI leadership habit of calling things that they do not like to be devilish.
I agree with you 100% as to calling the Jesus of the church to be a devil. Because if through the Holy Spirit, Jesus is present in any group I feel that calling that Jesus a devil fits the sin that the Lord says was unforgivable. Especially when a concerted effort is made to spin-doctor them into appearing evil and also fighting the things that the lord is working in the church.
I think that it's true whether or not their happens to be signs and wonders happening for all to see. The most important single thing seems to me to be the Spirit's presence. Hence the unforgivableness of the sin in calling the Spirit a devil especially when coupled with fighting against God's workings.
Now if the Spirit works reproof, then I suppose that calling it devilish is not good too. But it's not just in the heading of reproof or not IMO. It is also in the blasphemy of those who make this tremendously arrogant assumption that because they don't like what they hear, that they will announce to all that "it is a devil."
If I understand you correctly in your last post you seem to think that I'm refering to those who will not accept reproof from TWI. For me it is not just that alone. It is also that IMO TWI has a long history of destroying those who reprove or rebuke them. And also that they have a long history of accusing groups and individuals who did those things of having devils.
And I happen to think that Wierwille's bogus teaching on blasphemy of the spirit has left them unaware of the possible consequences of their actions.
Geisha, does that help clarify things at all, or not?
Or if I don't really understand your last post and perhaps am just rambling could you please clarify it for me?
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geisha779
Jeff,
That did help to clarify things thanks. . . I can speak with no authority on the unforgivable sin. I do not believe that the sin unto death is the same thing. . . . and I am not even sure you can commit the unforgivable sin today. The circumstances in which the Pharisees did this are not available today. Jesus is not in the flesh here on the earth. . . so, I don't really know.
That said. . . I can only discuss and try to understand WITH you.
What the leaders in TWI and your splinter group did, were terrible things, Jeff, . . . . that is a given. But, here is something to consider. I did the same things.
Maybe not to the degree or in the same manner, but it was every bit as grevious.
I was stiff necked and hardened in TWI. I was a very puffed up and often a mean person. In fact, I didn't know true repentance. I was very busy justifying my sin with twisted scripture. I loved darkness rather than light. This is true Jeff. How did I get that way? That is something I have had to think about.
It didn't happen over night. It was a slow imperceptible change. . . gradual. I was a gentle person when I took the class. I cried over "After School Specials". . . "Phone commercials". . . Goodness, I could not say a mean word to anyone.
I knew the difference between right and wrong. In my heart I knew. But, I was weak willed and not yet brought to repentance. I heard something that tickled my ears. . . and because I was burdened by sin. . . but not yet led to repentance, I fell into the trap. I was primed for false teaching. I am no better than those who also fell into the trap.
I truly wanted to know God. . . to love Him. . . heck, I always had in some way or another. But, I got tripped up. . . caught up in false teaching. I never came to a saving faith in TWI. . . because it wasn't there. It was an easy believism. Not real faith. Does that make sense to you?
I said the same things about the Jesus of the church. Angrily as a matter of fact. I can remember being a WOW and listening to music mocking the trinity. I sang right along with this attitude that I can only describe as haughty superiority. Those in the Christian church believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. That is what we were mocking. Calling idolatrous. Saying was a devil Spirit. We assumed these people ALL tricked.
The reproof that was given to those in TWI did often come from outside the group. . . our persecutors. . . remember? That is not what we are speaking of here. . . we are talking about those in the group. Very few of us were actually born again. I would venture to say. . . that had we not been born again before TWI. . . chances are high. . . it did not happen in TWI.
So, to assume that The Holy Spirit was working in the lives of those trying to reprove this oragnization from within. . . is just that. . . a big assumption. I don't know that is the case. I don't know that it isn't.
To charge someone with having commited a sin that is not pardonable. . . is a big deal. God is able to protect our hearts and deliver us from this stuff. It is always to His glory when this happens. Always. . . He must be glorified. . . look for that, but look closely.
Now, God can use whatever He wants. . . He used Caiphas to prophesy. He used Baalam (A false prophet) to warn Israel. He used Baalams donkey to reprove Baalam. He used Paul's thorn in the flesh. . . He used Paul's time in prison to pen some of the epistles. . . John's exile in Patmos to write Revelation.
He used the death of Christ to redeem us.
So, I am not saying that God was not at work in TWI. But, the way He was working might be different than we understand or how we think God should work. We just cannot assume that people are beyond salvation, or that anything can thwart God's purposes for His elect.
God has used my time in TWI to teach me many great things. I was blinded, and He has slowly and carefully delivered me. He has shown me the depth of my blindness and the why's of it. . . used it to be glorified in my deliverance. I could NEVER-EVER-NEVER-EVER have come out of this without His work in my life. I take no credit in any of it. . . I can't. The things He has used. . . are astounding.
I didn't just go find a new theology I couldn't argue with. . . or continue on in what I liked or sounded reasonable from TWI. . HE HE HE stripped me of all of it. . . But, He did it. . . not me. He has led me to Him by The Holy Spirit.
I don't know what God has worked in the lives of others. . . or what He will use to be glorified or for their deliverance. We were terribly close to many bad and evil things in TWI. . . .everyday. . . we dwelt in the land of false teaching. . . not a good habitat. I know what we said and did was wrong.
But, I am DAILY brought to worship when I consider what He delivered me from. Who knows, but Him, who else He is working these same things in. . . not me.
All I can do is pray fervently for others. With God all things are possible. I can't do it. . . He can. . .
Does any of this make sense?
Now, to tell someone it is WRONG to call things "Devils" is right on the money. . . but to assume anyone is past redemption is to assume we know and understand what God is working in others lives. . . I can't go there. I just don't know. . . I know to pray for them. . . with a pure and hopeful heart.
I am genuinely interested in what you are saying. . . the only thing I took issue with was that some were marked forever. Only God knows that. Consider if you will. . . if we were led so dangerously close to the edge with this teaching. . . what else took us there? Couldn't just be this one thing. . . how bad does it have to really be to get us to this point?
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JeffSjo
Dear Geisha,
Yes, what you are saying makes sense to me.
I have been in situations where the application of these things seemed cut and dry. For instance, any one of the times where my splinter group leader did things that were evil and manipulative on virtually every level. And to top it off he is so in tune to the casual conversation in the group and has taught his followers to be super sensitive to every utterance and report back that he can effectively squash any opposition before it begins.
But in spite of these things seeming exceedingly clear to me as far as understanding Barnard's actions right now, when looking at the consequences in the scriptures for these things when the Lord Himself judges they are not so clear to me.
The fact that even the apostle Paul reported looking ahead at these future events as "seeing through a glass darkly" speaks to my heart that I am not suppose to have a clear picture as to what the Lord Jesus will do to them. Another reference is when the scriptures speaking of the Lord Himself revealing the hidden things in mens' hearts at His coming.
So in all these things I find it to be wise to not say too much and wait for the Lord. But if I feel compelled to refer to part of Barnard's doctrine as devilish it certainly seems that it is good that I must understand that I may be held accountable for it. And that is part of why I called out What The Hey. It didn't seem to me that he knew that.
And Geisha, I'm happy to explore these things with you.
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JeffSjo
But as far as the worst of TWI abuse goes, including the times that leadership manipulated and destroyed those who perhaps were by the spirit reproving them, yeah, IMO those offenders are forever marked by their wickedness until the Lord himself takes it out of their hides.
But with such emotion filled sentences the human tendency is to go too far and fall into error too IMO. But on the other hand.....
Wierwille tuned the Grace of God (scriptures and the name of Christ, etc.) into lasciviousness.
My former splinter group broke down the natural family order until the men were castrated and the women were thinking of Barnard as their children's "true" father.
I have no qualms of conscience in calling both these things damnable and devilish.
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geisha779
Oh no, I agree. The scriptures cover this in great detail. . . false teachers whose destruction was from long ago. . . . I was thinking about that in relation to this topic.
That would be interesting to hear your take on. . . I have a rather forceful one :) on false teachers. . .
How does that relate do you think? Does it? I am curious ?
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JeffSjo
The subject of false teachers.....hhhmmm..... Yeah, I suppose it can relate to this topic.
If the false teacher is accusing others of having devils, you bet it applies IMO. As a matter of fact, since I haven't heard anything otherwise it seems entirely possible that this thread DIRECTLY APPLIES TO SUCH A SITUATION. :P
But as I said before, it is all to easy to go too far in this sort of consideration.
Since nobody saw fit to clarify their position in regards to seeing "real devils" I suppose that we are free to figure it out for ourselves. :B)
But I also think that most folks who throw around such verses that boldly concern false teachers and/or devils throw these things around all too freely. Perhaps bringing upon themselves the very judgment that they seek to put on others.
So in matters of such importance I'm going to have to be more deliberate in my statements than my emotions alone might tend to have me be.
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geisha779
In many ways, yes those verses are thrown around to freely. I would submit to you that concerning VP or your splinter group leader or any offshoot of TWI that is NOT the case.
I have seen true ministers make an error and be quickly maligned as a false teacher, and yes, then I think one could then be in dangerous seas. Just like with our maligning the Jesus of the church, true ministers are called of God. We are in essence calling someone of God. . . evil.
However, the scriptures spend much time and effort in warning on the topic of false teachers. We, of all people should understand and heed these verses because we have been decieved by such men. It IS possible to jump from one false teaching to another. . . decieved again and again. "Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
It takes coming to the Lord and a knowledge of Him to have that veil taken away. We never did that in TWI, and I venture to say the offshoots are not any better, although they may speak as if they have a more personal knowledge of Him. They even give lip service to some kind of relationship with Him. But, if we ourselves "Know" Him we will be able to spot this for what it is. There are certain things that are easy give-aways. :)
We were fond of knowledge in TWI. Nothing wrong with learning, but our foundation must be right. Jesus Christ is our foundation. If we build on anything else it is a rickety building. It must be a right knowledge of Him. . . not a wrong understanding.
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Holy Spirit. . . He is the one who points and guides us to Jesus and to all truth. Not our knowledge or theology. He glorifies the Lord. . . that is how you can tell it is the real thing. Listen to what others tell you. Is the Lord glorified or denied??
Spiritual pride is abominable. What you describe in your splinter group. . . reeks of it. A man is glorified. . . No? You can't take a carnal life and join it with divine faith. You can't profess Christianity and wed it with the corruption of sin. Jesus is the only one able to bear the weight of that sin. That must be our foundation. That is the church's foundation.
False teachers teach unholy doctrines. . . or doctrines of demons. . . The Spirit of Christ dwells in all true believers. We are Holy by profession. We are holy in our behavior and heart. We are deceived when we think of ourselves as the temple of the Holy Spirit, yet are unconcerned about our personal holiness, or the peace and purity of the church.
When we have such a high opinion of ourselves or our own wisdom. . . we are deceived. Self-flattery is deception. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God, it is not knowledge, but vanity and weakness. This alone should teach us to be humble before the Lord. Think about that in terms of TWI or your splinter.
This should cause us to be willing to be taught BY God. . . He holds nothing good from us. He wants us to prepare in this life for our lives in heaven. We must ask for a humble heart. . . no matter the cost now.
Lord, take us from sin and sorrow and guide us to the Father's house!!! This may involve losing some of our confidence in our knowledge and in our theology. It is worth it. Believe it or not. . . there can be great delight in this.
False teachers replace the simplicity in Christ with endless rules or endless sin. I really believe we have to look at these things. . . deeply and with God to guide us. Not men. . . not books. . . not theology our minds are not able to argue with. With the Holy Spirit to enlighten.
Then we do need to speak out and warn. It IS emotional Jeff. . . . our relationship with Jesus is a LOVE relationship. Anyone or thing that stands opposed to Him will bring up emotion. It will bring things from the depth of your heart. It will bring warnings because we love people.
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JeffSjo
Well now Geisha,
Saying those kinds of things just like you did is tremendously better than any unsubstantiated running off at the mouth about devils, that's for sure. :)
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