The following are excerpts from the article about the Holy Spirit on my website. (The full article can be seen here.)
There has been much misunderstanding about the holy spirit.
Says who? You? And you are? Who? Your point of reference being. . . what?. . . . your understanding? PFAL? "Most CHRISTIANS???" Is your point of reference the bible? Or is it what you believe the bible has to say? What is your point of reference for saying there has been much misunderstanding?
My point of reference is the simple fact that many Christians, not just ex-Way, have a different understanding of what the Bible says about the holy spirit. Granted, you may not agree with what others believe, but the fact is that other beliefs do exist.
Most Christians think of the holy spirit as a person, partly because it is used with personal pronouns, such as "He," "Him" and "Who" in most English Bibles.
Okay, PARTLY. . . what is the rest? Why else do they understand the Holy Spirit as a unique CHARACTER of God?
For various reasons which I get into here a bit, and which are dealt with extensively on various other websites.
Grammar aside, the Bible nowhere presents the holy spirit as a person. For one thing, it is never given a proper name. God's proper name is given as Yahweh, and His Son's name is Jesus. But the holy spirit is simply called the holy spirit.
That would be a name. . . no? You just called Him something. . THE Holy Spirit
Using an article, such as "the," is not a name. The Holy Spirit is never addressed as a person, by name, in the Bible. That is, nobody speaks to the Holy Spirit and says something like, "I beseech thee, O Holy Spirit."
The epistles frequently include greetings from the Father and the Son. However, never do they give greetings "from the Holy Spirit." Why would this be so if the holy spirit were a co-equal, co-eternal person?
And this means what? So, therefore He is not who Christians understand Him to be?
That is my point. Can you answer the question of why greetings from the Holy Spirit are not included if "he" is a co-equal, co-eternal person?
Jesus instructed his disciples to pray to the Father, and to do it in his name. He told them to ask God to send His holy spirit. Never are we told to pray to the holy spirit, and "ask him to come into our hearts" as many do today. The spirit is poured forth by Jesus (Acts 2:33), and we are baptized in it (Acts 1:5). One cannot pour forth a person, or be baptized in a person. The spirit is described as the spirit of God or the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, Matthew 11:27 says that no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son. Matthew 24:36 says that no man knows the hour of Christ's return, not even the Son, but only the Father. John wrote in his first epistle that a person is antichrist if he denies the Father and the Son (I John 2:22-23). In his second epistle he wrote, "He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (II John 9). If the holy spirit is a third co-equal person, why is there no mention of him in verses like these?
Mark, the word person is simply used to describe. . . . just like the word trinity is a word we use to describe the nature of God. Did you ever stop to ask yourself WHY pronouns to describe are used in translation? Ever? Is it because what is revealed to "MOST" Christians and described and understood is wrong? That is a mighty big tide to be bucking. . . have you ever considered WHY you want so badly to buck it?
First of all, yes I have considered all of this. Please don't assume that I am just flipping this off the top of my head without careful study and consideration. It isn't that I "want so badly to buck it." It is that in studying the Bible I have come to the same conclusions that many before me have come to as well.
Second, it's not just the
word
"person" that I am talking about. The Holy Spirit is never referred to or addressed as a person, nor included in the verses I cited which refer to the Father and the Son. Would "he" not be included if "he" were a co-equal person?
I believe VPW had it right when he taught that the holy spirit is not the Third Person of the Trinity. But I think what he said it was, is just as incorrect. I'll continue in the next post.
So, you have moved on from a cult leaders understanding. . . and fixed it? Consider this, VP and others who hold similar beliefs are actually outside the church. VP came from the church. . . understood the nature of God. . . it wasn't until he LEFT the church. .. . got booted. . . that he came up with this stuff. He came out from among those in the church. . . . but he was not ever of them. Do you know what it is that distingushes VP from the church? His understanding of the nature of God.
I don't claim to have "fixed" anything. I just studied the Bible and read the works of other theologians, and concluded that in many of the things VPW taught he was wrong. But the issue of the trinity, and the fact that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, not God, is not something VPW came up with. Many scholars throughout the history of the church have come to the same conclusions. There was great resistance to the original suggestion that Jesus was God, which was more than two hundred years after the NT was completed. Since then small groups of people have come to similar conclusions by studying the Bible.
Mark, I like you. . . and although my tone may exhibit a bit of frustration, it is never anything against you. In fact, I thought about this all day yesterday, and I talked it to death with hubby. I backspaced several posts. . . I know you cannot hear me or understand me when I say this to you. . . but I really desire you to. With all my heart. So please just mindfully consider. . . .
What you have written. . . is not what Christians believe. Your understanding changes the very nature of God. It takes it out of the realm of a common faith. It turns it into a different faith. Does that make sense? It is no different than someone who does not claim Christianity telling me the nature of God. Your understanding is not common with MOST Christians. You don't share a common salvation.
Which is why. . . ex-way people have such a DIFFICULT time with church. . . an often vampireish reaction to the Cross. . . and issues with the way people worship. It is why ABC had a hard time with being accredited. It is why we have splinter groups. It is because it is another faith. Why would one go to a church that holds differing beliefs than yours. Because you label yourself a Christian?
I agree this is not what most Christians believe. Yes it is a "different faith," if you will. But just consider the possibility that there
has
been error taught in the church - wouldn't you want to know the truth? We know that much of what the Roman Catholic Church taught was disagreed with in a big way by the Protestant Reformation. There was at that time a smaller group who felt that the Reformers didn't go far enough, and who saw the error of the Trinity. Some, like Michael Servetus, were murdered because they dared to believe what the Bible says rather than what the Church said.
I will be flayed alive for this. . . so be it. It is the same thing they fought about in the first centuries of the church. Gnosticism.
Actually, it was gnostic ideas that led to the development of the doctrine of the Trinity.
Now, to turn your logic back on you. . . . you said to me in another thread. . . that God was able to preserve His word and handle the devil. Good for you. . .you believe God is able. Given the same logic which refuted Mike's claim that the original intent was lost. Is God not able to, in His providence, preserve for His people an understanding of His nature? Would He do this within the church? Where His people dwell. Most Christians?
Is He able? Absolutely, and He has. That's why those who reject the Trinity can prove their position from the Bible. Would He do it in the Church? That would depend on whether the leaders in the Church were open to considering what the Bible actually said rather than adhering to Church traditions.
We had it wrong. We were on the outside looking in. We were trying to redefine God and His nature. . . .We were telling them they "misunderstood".
We were not welcome because of these very teachings. They infect and they cling and those not grounded and strong in their faith are protected in the church by those who are. It is why we have creeds. . . it is why we have teachings. . . it is HOW we define cults. . . it is why we don't accredit bible colleges who deny the triune nature of God.
You confuse those who hold different beliefs with those who are not grounded and strong in their beliefs. There have been many who have been strong in their faith and have done work for the Lord, even though they reject the Trinity as unbiblical. Please don't lump all Biblical Unitarians with The Way. That was one organization who happened to share the belief that the Trinity was wrong. There have been many others, although they remain in the minority. The number of people who believe in something does not prove that it is right.
It is why many can no longer find a haven or home outside of the cults. . . it isn't there.
If you believe one way. . . . that God is different than I believe. . . . I fall into the "Most" category. . . Do we share a common faith? No, we don't.
But we do share other beliefs, such as the integrity of the Bible. Why not let it speak for itself rather than appealing to what "the majority" believes? Have you looked into other non-Trinitarian sources besides the Way and its offshoots? You might be surprised.
God's whole plan was to redeem man to Himself. . . . He gives them hundreds of years of Prophecies about how to recognize the redeemer, everything points to Jesus. . . Jonah, Moses, Joseph, Job, David, Isaiah. . . . EVERYTHING! Agreed. And none of them ever said the Messiah would be God in human form. He would be the Son of God as well as a descendant of David. Then John comes along. . . the final prophet, who goes into explicit visual DETAIL about who the redeemer would be. . . Agreed again. And he said he wrote his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" (John 20:31). the spirit Himself comes along to testify. . . a voice from HEAVEN comes out, Which says, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased... and they still rejected who He is. . . . it takes the Holy Spirit to lead people. . . to Jesus. Agreed.
"Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." Agreed. But what is it to speak by the Holy Spirit? That is what I intend to demonstrate in this discussion.
The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to point people to Jesus. He helps people recognize who Jesus is, and He confirms it. Agreed. But how do we know whether what we think we believe is confirmed by the Holy Spirit? It must line up with what the Scriptures say. The Spirit and the Word work together.
It is not secret, hidden, or misunderstood knowledge. . . . or an enlightened training in classical greek. . . . NOW God can truly say man is without excuse.
If you have a different belief of the Holy Spirit. . . stands to reason you are not going to recognize as "Most" Christians do. . . that Jesus is God.
Agreed. The question is, does the Bible confirm what "most" Christians believe?
Instead of trying to understand and humble ourselves to what "Most" Christians know about God. . . including Bullinger. . . we just invent an new religion to support our own way.
I would say, rather, that instead of trying to understand what "most" Christians know about God, I have endeavored to see what the Bible teaches. Far from being a new religion, the idea that God is one person goes back to Moses. Jesus confirmed the
Shema
- "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God is One." He claimed to be the only begotten Son of God, not God.
The arguments I mentioned here against the Holy Spirit being a person are in addition to the many arguments against the Trinity as a whole. That has been debated in many other threads. If you feel you can prove the Trinity from the Bible, not from Church tradition, we could start another thread, if you like. In this thread my goal is to prove from the Bible that God's holy spirit is His presence and power in action, which is what I believe the Bible teaches.
TWI taught (based largely on Bullinger) that there were different meanings for the phrase "holy spirit" and for the word "spirit" by itself. This is true, but as I said in a previous post, TWI rarely if ever dealt with the Hebrew word and how it is used in the Old Testament, even though Bullinger did. The words for "spirit" in both Greek and Hebrew do have a number of different meanings, but all relate to the basic idea of an invisible force or influence. In the excerpts from articles I posted last time, I talked about the difference between soul and spirit, and the Hebrew words used for each.
To continue from my Holy Spirit article:
...We saw that the breath (or spirit) of life is the unseen force that makes man a living soul. The word
ruach
can also be used to refer to literal breath, as well as literal wind, or it can mean the "spirit of man" (Ecclesiastes 3:21; Zechariah 12:1) which is used interchangeably with "soul" and basically means one's self. For example, When Job says "I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul" (Job 7:11), they are both ways of referring to the anguish in the inner depths of his being. It is also parallel to the word "heart." For example, Psalm 77:6 - "I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search." Also Psalm 143:4, "Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate." (See also Exodus 35:21; Deuteronomy 2:30; Psalm 34:18; 51:10,17 and others).
Just as the spirit of man refers to the man's inner self, or his heart, in a similar manner God's inner self or heart is called the spirit of God, or the spirit of the Lord. For example, in Genesis 6:3 God says, "My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh." Isaiah 63:10 refers to rebellion "grieving God's spirit." To say "my spirit shall not always strive" is equivalent to saying "I will not always strive." To say rebellion grieves God's spirit is another way of saying that it grieves God. The spirit of God, being an extension of God's heart and mind, has the same qualities of God. But this does not make it a separate person. Paul's explanation in I Corinthians 2 clarifies this, by comparing the spirit of God with the spirit of man.
I Corinthians 2:
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so no man knoweth the things of God, but the Spirit of God.
So the spirit of God is not a separate person from God, any more than my spirit is a separate person from me.
God's spirit also refers to His presence. Psalm 51:10 (referenced above) refers to man's spirit, and in the next verse, David linked God's spirit with His presence: "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11). Psalm 139:7 also connects God's spirit with his presence. "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?" The very first occurance of spirit, in fact, illustrates that God was present in His creation. Genesis 1:2 reads, "...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
The spirit of God has been called an "impersonal force" by some, mainly as a response to the Trinitarian belief that it is a person. However, this may not be the best word to use. It is more than an abstract power, since it is the operational presence and power of God. It is His heart and personality as communicated to His creation. Alan Richardson, in his Introduction to the Theology of the New Testament (London: SCM Press, 1958, p. 120), desribes the holy spirit like this:
To ask whether in the New Testament the spirit is a person in the modern sense of the word would be like asking whether the spirit of Elijah is a person. The Spirit of God is of course personal; it is God's dunamis [power] in action. But the Holy Spirit is not a person, existing independently of God; it is a way of speaking about God's personally acting in history, or of the Risen Christ's personally acting in the life and witness of the Church. The New Testament (and indeed patristic thought generally) nowhere represents the Spirit, any more than the wisdom of God, as having independent personality.
While the vast majority of references to the holy spirit can be seen to fit this definition, there are some verses which speak of the holy spirit in terms which could seem to be referring to a person. Jesus refers to speaking against the holy spirit in Matthew 12:31-32. Ephesians 4:30 speaks of grieving the holy spirit, and the spirit is said to speak in Revelation 2:17; 14:13; and 22:17. Throughout Acts, the spirit speaks, moves, and guides the believers as well. It is verses like these that Trinitarians use to prove that the holy spirit is a person. They are also why Bullinger, Wierwille and others thought that one "usage" of the term "holy spirit" must be a name or title for God Himself. But the holy spirit, being the power and presence of God, is an extention of Himself. So all of His characteristics, all of His actions, all of His words and will, are attributed to His spirit. Thus, to speak against the holy spirit is to speak against God, especially with reference to His working in the peoples' presence (which is the context of the Lord's warning about blaspheming against the holy spirit). When God speaks through His holy spirit, it is said that the spirit speaks. In the same way you could say that a person's voice speaks words, and it is understood that you mean that it is the person who is speaking. But nowhere does the Bible speak of "God the Holy Spirit" whether in the Trinitarian sense or in the sense that it is a name or title for God.
Acts 5:3-4 is often used to prove that the holy spirit is God. Ananias is said to have lied to the holy spirit in verse 3, and it is equated with lying to God in verse 4. The holy spirit refers to the power and authority of God, which in this instance was invested in Peter. Just as "grieving the holy spirit" is another way of saying "grieving God," saying he "lied to the holy spirit" is another way of saying he lied to God. This is showing the connection between God and His spirit which was working in Peter and the other apostles.
To lie to the apostles who speak for God is equivalent to lying to God, as Paul says, "He therefore that despiseth this, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us His Holy Spirit" (I Thessalonians 4:8). This is similar to the statement by Moses in Exodus 16:8, that "your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD." This did not make Moses and Aaron God, any more than the apostles were God when they spoke on His behalf. But the holy spirit, as well as those in whom God's spirit worked, represented God. When Ananias lied to the apostles, he lied to God's holy spirit working in and through them, and therefore he lied to God.
Those who speak on God's behalf are said to have God's spirit working and speaking through them. Throughout the Scriptures, God's spirit is closely associated with His Word, and His words. When I speak words which reflect my mind and heart, I am communicating my spirit. Likewise, God's Word communicates His spirit.
II Samuel 23:
2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
Job 26:
2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
Proverbs 1:
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I [wisdom] will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
John 3:
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 6:
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
My spirit is communicated by words which are spoken, and speaking literally involves breath. In the same way, God's breath (the same word
ruach
that is translated "spirit") is associated with His Word. He created all things by His breath, or His Word, according to Psalm 33:6 - "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." The breath of God is one way the Scriptures refer to His power being exercised (Exodus 15:8; Job 4:9; 37:10). God breathed life into man (Genesis 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4), and His Word (which is "God breathed" according to II Timothy 3:16) is living and powerful (Hebrews 4:12). God's breath or spirit communicates His Word and exercises His almighty power.
I realize this is a lot to take in all at once. But it is not just something I made up. Many recognized Bible reference books concur, and this definition is what one sees when one approaches the Scriptures without preconceived ideas.
The holy spirit takes on added significance in the New Testament, especially when we start to see references to the Spirit of Christ. More on that next time.
Pursuing truth begins with intellectual humility--recognizing that one might be wrong about his or her current beliefs. Truth should not be feared but rather embraced even if it causes distress. We must be open on matters of faith and willing to hear the other side of the argument. Furthermore, since each of us is capable of making mistakes, we believe it is best to work out our theology in community where others can critique and contribute. Questing for truth is exciting and worthwhile because, as Jesus said, "the truth will set you free" (John 8.32).
If the Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father, which one is the father of Jesus? Many passages refer to God the Father of the Lord Jesus. But some refer to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit. This makes perfect sense if you understand the Holy Spirit as God's power in operation.
But if the Holy Spirit is a person, how could he be the one that conceived Jesus? Wouldn't that make him the father? Then what of God the Father?
I believe most Trinitarians would say that God is the Father of Jesus, and not any one person of the Trinity. But if they all have an equal part, then God the Son, i.e. Jesus, must be his own father as well. See the confusion gendered by this doctrine which is nowhere presented in the Bible?
If you have so many questions, perhaps you should find a good bible believing church, and a minister who graduated from an accredited theological seminary to sit down prayerfully with a bible and expound on these things with you.
It is my express hope for you.
We seek God, and humble ourselves before Him. Endless disputes over words and arguments against who God isn't and how all Christians who claim an intimate relationship with God and do His work are "wrong", is not the way to understand.
It is not even close. You question, great, question God. Ask Him, don't tell Him who He is or isn't. . . . because we can ALL read the same verse of scripture and see differing things depending on our knowledge and own understanding.
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me.
You said to me in another thread we needed a bible to know God. Well, I let it go. However, what we need is someone to tell us about God to believe. The Holy Spirit confirms the truth in our hearts. If you have to ask me what that means. . . or how one knows. . . it is clear it has never happened.
You need to pray and be patient. Deliverance can take years, but God is so merciful and gracious. If we humble ourselves before Him, express our hearts, which are already laid bare and truly desire to go beyond our own head knowledge. . . He will be kind and He will be gracious to us. Stop hopping from one faith to another outside of Christianity to find the Christian God. Any group who claims to have the "right" understanding but stands opposed to it, might be a problem.
You seem to forget I believed both ways. I sang the songs mocking the trinity. I had volumious arguments against that which I rejected. Words and words and endless disputes in arrogance.
Makes me queasy to even consider it now.
This is not about a gentle or kinder way to say I am still right. . . all Christians wrong. Most Christians? No . . . ALL. . . to be a Christian you must confess Jesus as Lord? No? "Whom do you say I am?"
God is to be glorified. God is glorified, and will be. That is what we were made for. . . to worship. Sunesis said the most profound thing on here ages ago. She said. . . "you will never understand the greatness of what was done for you" Still sticks with me. That is how we glorify and worship. When we understand the greatness of what was done. We do that when we understand who God is. .. . revealed to us through scripture via THE Holy Spirit. . . who is GOD.
The symbolism of a dove from heaven. . . it should bring you closer to God. . . it should reveal something to you about the character of God. Jesus. . . should bring you closer to God. . . reveal God to you. Our creator, a God so big as not to be contained in a little box carried around on the shoulders of men. . . has expressed Himself to us.
This is what you look for. . . . this is the "truth" you seek. . . GOD. . . not head knowledge . . . but HIM!! Truth is a person a WHO. . . . No man alone saved you. . . . God did.
Don't get hung up on endless disputes over words. . . like person. . . it is just a word. . . a way to describe something distinct. You are not just body alone, or spirit alone, or soul alone. All three make up one person. Seperate and distinct yet one. You are made in His image.
Good luck, God's nature and an understanding of the gospel are all wrapped up together. Worship is our response. Any real knowledge of Him should be setting you up for feet washing. . . not argument.
The Personality of God has often been defined in terms of the stand-alone qualities of intellect, emotion and will. No doubt, a good reason behind this conclusion has been the result of our reflection on corresponding qualities in human persons. So far, so good. But can and do these qualities exist in isolation?
Is not the intellect the activity of the mind about something? Is not the emotion a feeling about another? Is not the will active in deciding and acting freely with regard to available choices?
I submit that personality in God and in us cannot be understood in isolation but in relationship. The Ultimate Person, God, therefore will not be absolute and perfect except as Person in Community. To be sure, the Church did not formulate the doctrine of the Trinity as the result of an extended philosophical reflection of the kind described above. The first disciples who were strictly monotheistic Jews were inescapably driven to the doctrine because of their exposure to the divinity of Christ as well as their familiarity with His explicit relationship with the One Whom He called His Father. This route to Trinitarian conclusions needs to be explored although that is not the purpose of this essay. Here we are content to let reason reflect on revelation – an exercise recommended by Oxford theologian, Alistair McGrath.
The Trinitarian understanding of God gives an excellent starting point for the branch of philosophy called epistemology. This particular branch deals with questions pertaining to knowledge. In the New Testament, Jesus’ striking statement in Matthew 11:27 has profound epistemological implications in addition to the obvious relational aspects it describes. We may legitimately expatiate on this verse to show that the omniscience of God is not dependent upon His knowledge of His creation although that is how this divine quality is often defined. Such an understanding will require the implausibility of making God dependent on His creation to actualise His capacity for knowledge. For God to be truly exhaustive in His knowledge of the Other, the Other will necessarily have to be as infinite and coextensive as God Himself. Because God is infinitely relational, the necessary subject-object relationship necessary for such knowledge is contained within His own Being.
The prophetic passage in Proverbs 8:22-31 (particularly vv. 30,31) has puzzled and confounded Jewish commentators who nevertheless saw Messianic possibilities in it. For the Christian, these verses are the delightful precursors of the Father’s pleasure in Jesus (Matthew 3:17 and many other verses). The emotions of God are nothing short of the mutual delight infinitely and eternally enjoyed by the Father and the Son. The self-confessed Christian hedonist, John Piper has put his finger rightly on this aspect of the Christian’s privilege. The Song of Solomon occupies a central place in the Scriptures only because sexual love in human marriage sacredly reflects the mutually enjoyable and satisfying relationship within the Trinity.
Willful actions and morality are inseparable. The infinite holiness of God can be seen not as one of ascetic separation but of an eternal love-commitment to the Other. While asceticism recommends breaking of relationships, true virtue consists in building them. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in John 17: 24b. The eternal love-relationship between the Father and the Son is the crown of divine holiness. The blazing glory of the Godhead is in some sublime way linked to this eternal Communion between the Persons of the Trinity (John 17:2,4,5,22,24).
What about the Holy Spirit? None of the three aspects of the Super-Personality of God would be realised without the activity of the Infinite Person of the Holy Spirit. The mutual knowledge between the Father and Son is made possible only by the Spirit as He makes that knowledge possible for us (I Corinthians 2:10,11). The joy and delight of the Godhead is the joy of the Holy Spirit (Romans 14: 17). The Medium of communication of infinite love between the Father and the Son has to be Infinite Himself – the Sprit Who now pours out that love into our hearts (Romans 5:5). It is the Spirit Who provides space and freedom for the Son to be Son and the Father to be Father because He is the Spirit of freedom (II Corinthians 3:17). But He is the Spirit Who makes One the Father and the Son so that we have one God, not three. That is the Sprit’s ministry to us as well (I Corinthians 12:13). In the Infinite-Personal-Relational God of the Bible, the Individuality of the 3 Persons and the One Community of the God-head are both equally sacrosanct.
Sterile conceptual monotheism is an arid desert. The robust Trinitarian God of the Bible, on the other hand, is the profound ravisher of the hearts and minds of His worshippers.
A little bit more Mark, so you can understand why it is hard for me to hear you pronounce misunderstanding on "most" Christians. From the perspective of another faith. I honestly don't think you understand most Christians. . . here is a bit that might help you understand better.
As an apologist, I am often engaged in conversations that involve the philosophical, theological, scientific, and historical reasons by which one could reasonably conclude that Jesus is exactly who he said he was--the eternal God now come in the flesh. But interestingly enough, Jesus tells us in John 13:34-35 that the final apologetic by which this world will recognize that he was sent by God is the demonstrable love-relationship that will be seen in the lives of his disciples.
Why is it that the unfathomable truth of Word made flesh can only be conclusively understood in a living, verifiable community of believers? Why is it that of all the methods that the evil one could invent to thwart the purposes of God, none would succeed so spectacularly as the disruption of relationships among the members of the body of Christ?
There is one simple but profound answer. God is a Being in relationship and any truth pertaining to Him, in the final analysis, stands attested by exemplary relationships among his creatures.
To the clever lawyer who questioned him about the greatest commandment in all of Scripture, Jesus significantly refrained from giving religious or ritualistic requirements; instead, he had only two simple relational injunctions to offer: "Love your God" and "Love your neighbor" (Matthew 22:34-40). By placing these two commands at the same level, Jesus brought relationships into focus. Thus, worshipping God is not about mere observance, but relating to Him in love. He is likewise the one who liberates the individual from the self to love others. The first commandment thus becomes foundational and makes the second obey-able. But by the same token, obedience to the second commandment becomes the evidence that the first has been obeyed. The brilliance of this summation is polluted by the pluralist cacophony assaulting us at every turn.
Yet it is in this context that the Church finds itself entrusted with the onerous responsibility of speaking about the relational nature of God. What better way could there be to communicate this blessed reality than by a model which would uncompromisingly demonstrate it before a watching world!
In this, no contemplation of the beauty and glory of God within a community of believers can be complete without some understanding of the relationship between the Three Persons of the Trinity. The image God has given us in the Trinity is an image of three co-eternal, co-equal Persons giving themselves to one another in eternal self-effacement. The glory of our God is not a thunder-and-lighting quality, but a self-giving love within the Trinity. And Jesus's prayer for his disciples (and us) is that this same glory may be given to us that we "may be one" even as they are one. Is there any question why servanthood and relationship-building is no longer an optional extra for the Christian but essential to reflecting the glory of the Triune God?
In a society that is increasingly fragmented and individualized, it is easy to develop a theology of the Church as a collection of perfect individuals. But a right understanding of the relationships within the Trinity would militate against such an interpretation. We do well to remember the powerfully acted parable of Jesus as he washed the disciples' feet. The feet of all the disciples were dirty, but as they would submit themselves to cleansing by one another, they would emerge as a perfect community (John 13:14). We may fundamentally have no difficulty having ourselves cleansed by Christ, but to submit to ablutions by another is virtually unthinkable. The disciples (and we as well) would have been very happy to wash the feet of Jesus, but his injunction was that they should wash one another's feet. It was a strange but effective way of communicating the importance of relating to one another by forgiving, cleansing, and accepting one another in perfect mutuality. In other words, two imperfect individuals can synergistically portray a perfect relationship--the very antidote so desperately needed to correct our individualistic privatized spirituality!
It is an issue within Scripture that cannot be overemphasized. The hallmark of the Church of Jesus Christ is a relational testimony which serves as a pointer to the reality of the Eternal Triune God. May we, under God, consciously discern every trap that the devil sets for us to rupture relationships, and trust the Holy Spirit of love to breathe his healing and remake our fractured bonds.
One more Mark, I promise, last one. :) I have been called on the carpet in the doctrinal forums more than once for the way I speak. But, I speak from the heart. It is a heart overflowing and satisfied. Full of worship and praise. I can't help it. I am satisfied in Him. Here is a way to explain it that perhaps you can begin to understand.
There is something in this understanding that not only satisfies the intellect, but the very heart and soul of the one who knows. I no longer have to endlessly prove or debate. I am filled. I just want to share that with you. For you to be filled. Not quest and strive and wander. (There is that language again!)
"All day long we are surrounded by "the spirit of the age." We see it, hear it, and even believe it in bits and pieces. We know people in it and we rear our children in it. There is rarely a time when we can actually remove ourselves from it. It is, in some ways, even in our blood.
But how odd would it be to think that this "spirit of the age" is an actual person. We do not think there is an actual being called "The Spirit of the Age" that marches through time and takes on different shapes and sizes. "The spirit of the age" is no more than an attitude stemmed from certain beliefs of a conglomerate of people in the midst of a culture.
That is not the only way we use the word "spirit" today. If someone has a good attitude, we say, "That's the right spirit." If someone uses energy and gusto, we say, "She sang her song with spirit." If we're talking about the mindset or idea of a person, we say something like, "The spirit of the Wright Brothers is alive and strong at Boeing."
When we say a person has the Spirit of Christ, what do we mean? In one sense, we could be speaking of someone who shares the passion of Christ to help the poor and suffering. If we meant it in this way, "spirit" would be used similarly to the way Gandhi used it. The "Spirit of Jesus" is simply a man to emulate—merely an example for everyone.
But when the Bible talks the Spirit of Christ, it is referring to it in a very different way. This is what makes following Jesus unique to following anyone else. Romans 8:9 says this:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
What is the Apostle Paul saying to the Christians in Rome? He is saying that "Spirit" is not an idea or an attitude. "Spirit" is a living person. In fact, Paul is saying that if we are not rightly related to this person, if this person is not part of our lives, then we do not belong to God. We are still a long way off.
When Christ came into the world he didn't come merely to give us an example in suffering, a good attitude in oppression, nor a way to help the poor and needy, though an example he did give. Rather, he came to reconnect us with God, to birth a relationship with our maker that has no end, to love us who are unlovely, understand us who are easily misunderstood, and to quell our fear of death and suffering because he identified with us in both and conquered their treacherous stings.
The Spirit of Christ is a Person who walks with all who choose to join as citizens of his Kingdom.
He's real, not simply an idea; he's a person ready to meet us in the moment, not merely an example of bygone years.
Malcolm Muggeridge talked about his filming a documentary of the Holy Land. He walked with his friend along the road to Emmaus. The same one mentioned in Luke 24. He said,
"Shortly after the Crucifixion, Cleopas and a friend were walking from Jerusalem to Emmaus and inevitably talking as they went along about the Crucifixion, which had happened so recently. They were joined by a third man who … shared in their conversation. As my friend and I walked along like Cleopas and his friend, we recalled the events of the Crucifixion and its aftermath in the light of our utterly different and yet similar world. Nor was it a fancy that we, too, were joined by a third presence. And I tell you that wherever the walk, and whoever the wayfarers, there is always this third presence ready to emerge from the shadows and fall in step along the dusty, stony way."
When the Spirit is a person, and not just an attitude, then a relationship is not only important, but imperative. It is this Person who promises, if we allow Him, to dwell in us and we in Him. It is this Person who promises to be with us to the very end of the age. Let us think afresh that relating with this Person is the central reason of why we were made."
If you have so many questions, perhaps you should find a good bible believing church, and a minister who graduated from an accredited theological seminary to sit down prayerfully with a bible and expound on these things with you.
It is my express hope for you.
We seek God, and humble ourselves before Him. Endless disputes over words and arguments against who God isn't and how all Christians who claim an intimate relationship with God and do His work are "wrong", is not the way to understand.
It is not even close. You question, great, question God. Ask Him, don't tell Him who He is or isn't. . . . because we can ALL read the same verse of scripture and see differing things depending on our knowledge and own understanding.
You misunderstand me. My questions were not seeking answers or looking for understanding. They were rhetorical questions designed to engage in a discussion, and perhaps afford you an opportunity to explain passages of Scripture from your point of view. I have, in fact, questioned God and found His answers in His Word. I didn't tell Him who He is, He told all of us. But sadly, what you say is true. "We can ALL read the same verse of scripture and see differing things depending on our knowledge and own understanding." This is why we must search the Scriptures. We cannot take someone's word on it without checking it out for ourselves like the Bereans, because so many people see and teach different things from the Bible. Yes, the goal is to have a relationship with God and His Son, but we must get there by understanding, first, the words that His Son spoke, and second, the other words about him that other men of God wrote, which are recorded in the Bible.
The only way to find the Trinity in the Bible is to have it in your mind to start with. When I approach the Scriptures without those pre-conceived glasses, I find a beautiful story of God promising Abraham offspring, land, and many blessings for the whole world. I find Him telling Moses that He would raise up a prophet from among Moses' brethren, whose words would be God's own words, and whom we must hear. I find Him promising David that a descendant of his would sit on his throne, and his reign would be forever. I find promise after promise of a Messiah who would be a man, but also the Son of God (not God Himself in human form). I find that man in the person of Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, who proclaimed the good news that the Kingdom was at hand, and who gave his very life on the cross for us to be able to enter that Kingdom. I find him living in our hearts by way of the holy spirit, and being able to strengthen us and encourage us in a way he never could while on earth. And I find the promise of a glorious future in paradise on a renewed earth. But none of these things suggests anything of three persons in one God. It's just not in there. Truly, God is to be glorified. And we do that by giving honor to His Son as the Lord and King (Phil. 2:11). You said, "to be a Christian you must confess Jesus as Lord? No?" That's correct. We confess Jesus as Lord. That doesn't mean we must confess him as God the Son.
You said to me in another thread we needed a bible to know God. Well, I let it go. However, what we need is someone to tell us about God to believe. The Holy Spirit confirms the truth in our hearts. If you have to ask me what that means. . . or how one knows. . . it is clear it has never happened.
You need to pray and be patient. Deliverance can take years, but God is so merciful and gracious. If we humble ourselves before Him, express our hearts, which are already laid bare and truly desire to go beyond our own head knowledge. . . He will be kind and He will be gracious to us. Stop hopping from one faith to another outside of Christianity to find the Christian God. Any group who claims to have the "right" understanding but stands opposed to it, might be a problem.
Again, you misunderstand me. I wasn't asking how the holy spirit confirms the truth in our hearts. But there are many people who believe many different things about God, yet are all equally convinced that the holy spirit has revealed the truth in their hearts. The way not to be deceived is to compare what the spirit reveals to you with what the spirit has revealed to the men who wrote by inspiration of the same spirit. The Spirit and the Word work together to establish the truth.
In all of those responses, you never did respond to any of my points. That's your privilege. You say you once believed as I do (that the Trinity was false), yet now you believe in the Trinity. Did you in fact search the Scriptures to come to that conclusion? And also, why is it such a big deal to you that I suggest most Christians may be wrong? Weren't most of them wrong before the Protestant Reformation? Don't you think the devil is capable of deceiving that many people? He is called the Deceiver and the Father of Lies. But that's why God gave us the Bible - so that we could recover the truth in spite of all the error that exists. This is why we are told to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (I Thes. 5:21) and to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (I John 4:1). You're right that we must seek HIM, not just head knowledge, but our seeking of Him must begin with the knowledge of Himself that He has given us. I believe I have done this, and have shown what I believe the Bible teaches.
P.S. - I agree with Mark Driscoll's point. It is serious and there are many false teachers. That's why we need to demonstrate from the Bible that our doctrine is sound. The Trinity is not a sound Biblical doctrine but was developed more than two hundred years after Christ.
Who says that you must predisposed to the doctrine of the trinity to see it? You? Who are you? I am living proof of the opposite.
You know the scriptures, you know the doctrine. You deny it . You don't see it the way I NOW do. That makes our belief system different.
Can't make it any clearer. If you think you are objective. . . so be it. If you think Christians are in error and you and the cults have the right way. Fine.
Nothing I will say to you will change that. You want to argue. Endless debate. Ever learning. . .
I am satisfied. I know God . . . in Him I am satisfied.
Yes Mark, You have a Jesus. . . you find a beautiful story. The JW's have a Jesus, the Moonies have a Jesus, The Branch Dividians have a Jesus, TWI has a Jesus, Mary Baker Eddy had a Jesus, Word Faith has a Jesus, Islam has a Jesus, The Worldwide Church of God has a Jesus, New age gurus love Jesus. . . .
It doesn't make any of them the Jesus of scripture. Notice the wide variety of Jesus' here. I could post more if you want. Vince Finnegan has a Jesus. . . . John Lynn has a Jesus.
It does matter what Jesus you confess.
Call Him what you want. Argue. . . words and more words. . . articles and volumes about how you are right. . . "Prove" how Christians are wrong.
It still puts you outside the church with a different faith. Because Christians are not wrong. . . nor have they been misguided. They know God. It is a relationship. It is an intimate worshipful, heart flowing, love, relationship. . . as HE is a relationship. Can you relate??
If you think VF or Anthony Buzzard or the Abrahamic Faith is right. . . so be it. . . if that is what you see in scripture and are so sure. . .. fine. Or take some time to study some sound Christian thinkers.
The TRINITY was defined not developed. . . . .I have finally "GOT" this. . . . I landed on the wrong side of this debate once, for me it is now a non issue. . . the thing is. . . Christians don't get tripped up with this one too much anymore. . . . it is understood through scripture,. . . our faith is built on THIS GOD of scripture. . . . this is why another understanding of Jesus dwells in the land of cults.
You actually reject the Jesus I confess.
But, you better be preaching to the cults cause the church won't hear you. This is why Mark Driscoll yells false teaching.
Oh and what I did, was humble myself before God. . . ask Him who He is. . . and read my bible. Fact check? Did I fact check the Holy Spirit? You know the scriptures. We see in them differing things. Spiritual things must be discerned spirtually. My whole understanding changed. It was like a light went on. I was overwhelmed and humbled and praised and truly worshipped God. His presence, His Majesty, His Glory, I am continually undone by His greatness. It is too much for words, which is what I get called on here for. . . often.
It is there. . . and when you see God revealed it will change your life. That is why the new birth is life altering.
God then allowed me to meet the most amazing Christian teachers and pastors. . . my journey has been profound.
I also know every argument you make against the same scriptures. You argue against the scriptures Mark. I did fact check you. It isn't worth my time or yours to ARGUE and endlessly debate. I could NEVER return to such an arid an empty faith.
I just don't want you to miss it. That is my heart in answering you. . . told ya, I really considered it first.
Did you ever consider this really is the same thing as TWI, but dressed up with more words?
I wonder, do either of you see the irony of this argument. You are both so very concerned that the other may be worshipping the wrong god. God is so much bigger than any defition either of you can come up with. Bigger than any definition I can come up with, or Cman, or Sir.
Neither of you have it completely right. Neither of you have it completely wrong. And in the end, you both have far more in common than you realize.
Did you ever consider this really is the same thing as TWI, but dressed up with more words?
The rejection of the Trinity is the same thing as one of TWI's doctrines, one which they happened to get right. But many of their other ones, and many of their practices, I do not condone.
I hadn't really wanted to get into an argument about the Trinity anyway. I wanted to show that TWI's definition of the holy spirit was not Scriptural.
No arguing here. I think that is the issue :) . I am getting over a baaaaad stomach flu. Don't have much interest in a debate over something I don't believe anymore and never will again.
I like Mark though. . . and his last post gave me a real chuckle.
I wonder, do either of you see the irony of this argument. You are both so very concerned that the other may be worshipping the wrong god. God is so much bigger than any defition either of you can come up with. Bigger than any definition I can come up with, or Cman, or Sir.
Neither of you have it completely right. Neither of you have it completely wrong. And in the end, you both have far more in common than you realize.
Abi, I can't keep silent any longer. I sent Mark a check for $100 so that he could distract Geisha in order that she stop praying for me.
Abi, I can't keep silent any longer. I sent Mark a check for $100 so that he could distract Geisha in order that she stop praying for me.
LOL I think my stomach flu took care of prayers for anyone other than myself for the time. You moved quickly to the bottom of list when faced with wretching out "Oh God Pleeeease!"
Out of bed, not out of the house. Lucky you, I have been posting! :) Thanks for the prayers, that is lovely, I take ALL I can get!! On the bright side, my skinny jeans are loose!!
Jesus Christ is called "the Word made flesh" in John 1:14. His very existance is due to the holy spirit begetting him in Mary's womb (Luke 1:35). This is why he is the ultimate communication of God and His Word. (For more on this idea, see the Closer Look article on
.) Because of this, the words that he spoke were God's words, spoken by the influence of God's spirit (John 3:34). It was foretold by Moses that God would raise up a prophet and put His words in that prophet's mouth (Deuteronomy 18:18). Jesus said his words were not his own but His Father's (John 14:10-24). "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33). "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63). This is why his words are the key to eternal life as we saw in the article on the
When Jesus ascended into heaven he did not leave his followers without comfort and guidance. In John chapters 14-16 Jesus gave his most comprehensive teaching about the holy spirit. He said it would be a substitute for him, and would be their helper and comforter, and would be with them forever. It would bring to their remembrance everything that he had said to them, and teach them things that they were not yet able to bear at the time he was speaking. It would testify about Christ and convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. It would succor and strengthen them, and enable them to live a Christlike life.
I was once taught that Old Testament believers had the holy spirit "upon" them, while believers after Pentecost had holy spirit "in" them. But this does not hold true upon closer examination. Joseph was called "a man
in
whom the spirit of God is" in Genesis 41:38, and Joshua was called that in Numbers 27:18. God's ministers were said to be
filled with
God's spirit in Exodus 28:3; 31:3; and 35:31. Isaiah 63:11 reads, "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit
within
him?" On the other hand, we saw that the outpouring of the holy spirit in Acts was a partial fulfilling of God's promise to "pour out of my Spirit
upon
all flesh" (Acts 2:17). And Peter specifically states in I Peter 4:14 that, "the spirit of glory and of God
resteth upon
you." Therefore the distinction between "spirit in" and "spirit upon" has no Biblical basis. But does this mean the holy spirit after Pentecost was no different than it was before?
It can't be true that there was no holy spirit before Pentecost, since Jesus and the apostles worked many mighty miracles. Jesus specifically said that he cast out demons by the power of the holy spirit (Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20). Yet in John 7:38-39 Jesus said, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" So there is a distinction between the spirit of God before Pentecost and what came after. Before Christ the spirit of God was God's presence and power at work in people and situations. It is the same afterward, but with an added dimension. The spirit as concentrated and focused in the person of the risen Christ is now made to dwell in the believer.
Jesus said that God would give them "another" comforter, namely the spirit of truth. It is "another" comforter because it would comfort them the way he had done when he was with them. It is through the spirit that Jesus said he would come to them and abide with them.
John 14:
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Notice again the close association with the holy spirit and the words of Jesus. "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Remember we saw that the Word of God, as communicated through the words of Jesus, was the key to eternal life, and was the seed which provides the new birth. Here we see that the spirit indwells a person when they have the words of Jesus abiding in their heart. The spirit, besides being called the holy spirit and the spirit of God, is also called the spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; I Peter 1:11) and the spirit of Jesus (Philippians 1:19). There is no difference since Jesus made God known and always did the Father's will. In fact II Corinthians 3:17 says that "the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
God's holy spirit is His personal power and presence, and Jesus said, "my Father will love him, and
we
will come unto him, and make
our
abode with him." It is by way of the holy spirit that God and His Son dwell in a person who believes the words Jesus spoke. This is how Jesus would be with them until the end of the age, as he promised in Matthew 28:20. While Jesus is physically in heaven, seated at the right hand of God, his spirit, which is also the spirit of God, is within each believer, and thus the Church is the Body of Christ with Jesus himself as the head. In this way Jesus can strengthen and encourage each member in a way that he could not do when he was physically present on earth.
The spirit of God, as communicated by the Word of God is what makes Jesus who he is. When a person accepts him as their Lord, that spirit of God in Christ dwells in them, and thus Colossians 1:27 refers to "Christ in you, the hope of glory." It is the hope of glory because the Word is the Gospel of the coming kingdom of God, when Jesus will be glorified and rule the earth, with believers being glorified and ruling with him.
The words that a person speaks are an indicator of what sort of "spirit" he has. If he has the spirit of Christ, his words will sound like those of Christ. This is one way to tell whether a person who seems to be "spiritual" and manifests supernatural power is really showing forth God's holy spirit or a counterfeit. Jesus warned us that there would be many counterfeit signs and wonders which we should watch out for (Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22). He specifically said that there would be people who seem to be Christians, and even consider themselves to be Christians, but in fact are not.
Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I used to think these verses referred to people who just talked about Jesus but didn't follow through in their actions. But it is even more than that. The people he refers to will also include ones who even did mighty works in Jesus' name - prophesied, cast out devils, etc. - but were not in fact doing the will of God. This tells us that doing these mighty works is not an indication that one is "saved" or even in a right relationship with the Lord. How does one determine if he is doing God's will then? The next verse tells us. "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock..." (Matthew 7:24). In order to have a right relationship with God and His Son, you must hear and do his sayings. Doing mighty works without the right foundation of the words of Jesus Christ, the Gospel of the Kingdom, is building your house on the sand. It will not stand.
In TWI, the "manifestations" were extremely overemphasized, but I don't believe they are the primary or normal activity of the holy spirit. The normal working involves growth and change of heart, which God is more interested in accomplishing in a believer. And this was hardly, if ever, mentioned in the Way. I even asked a limb leader once if the holy spirit might be a power that helps us live more Christian lives. He said he'd never thought of that.
It is this growth and "regeneration of the holy spirit" (Titus 3:5), not "operating manifestations," which produces the fruit of the spirit. As the Word of God, which is the heart of God, grows in a believer, the attributes of God become more and more evident in his life. Then a person realizes love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, which are called the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5:22. This is another way to tell if someone demonstrating power is genuine or not. Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16,20).
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
9
28
22
6
Popular Days
Feb 4
19
Feb 9
11
Feb 16
8
Feb 6
6
Top Posters In This Topic
Abigail 9 posts
Mark Clarke 28 posts
geisha779 22 posts
cman 6 posts
Popular Days
Feb 4 2009
19 posts
Feb 9 2009
11 posts
Feb 16 2009
8 posts
Feb 6 2009
6 posts
RumRunner
Well then you can answer the following two questions.
a) What is a Polish dope ring?
b) Why was Jesus not Polish?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
Geisha,
The following are excerpts from the article about the Holy Spirit on my website. (The full article can be seen here.)
There has been much misunderstanding about the holy spirit.
Says who? You? And you are? Who? Your point of reference being. . . what?. . . . your understanding? PFAL? "Most CHRISTIANS???" Is your point of reference the bible? Or is it what you believe the bible has to say? What is your point of reference for saying there has been much misunderstanding?
Most Christians think of the holy spirit as a person, partly because it is used with personal pronouns, such as "He," "Him" and "Who" in most English Bibles.
Okay, PARTLY. . . what is the rest? Why else do they understand the Holy Spirit as a unique CHARACTER of God?
Grammar aside, the Bible nowhere presents the holy spirit as a person. For one thing, it is never given a proper name. God's proper name is given as Yahweh, and His Son's name is Jesus. But the holy spirit is simply called the holy spirit.
That would be a name. . . no? You just called Him something. . THE Holy Spirit
The epistles frequently include greetings from the Father and the Son. However, never do they give greetings "from the Holy Spirit." Why would this be so if the holy spirit were a co-equal, co-eternal person?
And this means what? So, therefore He is not who Christians understand Him to be?
Jesus instructed his disciples to pray to the Father, and to do it in his name. He told them to ask God to send His holy spirit. Never are we told to pray to the holy spirit, and "ask him to come into our hearts" as many do today. The spirit is poured forth by Jesus (Acts 2:33), and we are baptized in it (Acts 1:5). One cannot pour forth a person, or be baptized in a person. The spirit is described as the spirit of God or the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, Matthew 11:27 says that no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son. Matthew 24:36 says that no man knows the hour of Christ's return, not even the Son, but only the Father. John wrote in his first epistle that a person is antichrist if he denies the Father and the Son (I John 2:22-23). In his second epistle he wrote, "He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (II John 9). If the holy spirit is a third co-equal person, why is there no mention of him in verses like these?
Mark, the word person is simply used to describe. . . . just like the word trinity is a word we use to describe the nature of God. Did you ever stop to ask yourself WHY pronouns to describe are used in translation? Ever? Is it because what is revealed to "MOST" Christians and described and understood is wrong? That is a mighty big tide to be bucking. . . have you ever considered WHY you want so badly to buck it?
I believe VPW had it right when he taught that the holy spirit is not the Third Person of the Trinity. But I think what he said it was, is just as incorrect. I'll continue in the next post.
So, you have moved on from a cult leaders understanding. . . and fixed it? Consider this, VP and others who hold similar beliefs are actually outside the church. VP came from the church. . . understood the nature of God. . . it wasn't until he LEFT the church. .. . got booted. . . that he came up with this stuff. He came out from among those in the church. . . . but he was not ever of them. Do you know what it is that distingushes VP from the church? His understanding of the nature of God.
Mark, I like you. . . and although my tone may exhibit a bit of frustration, it is never anything against you. In fact, I thought about this all day yesterday, and I talked it to death with hubby. I backspaced several posts. . . I know you cannot hear me or understand me when I say this to you. . . but I really desire you to. With all my heart. So please just mindfully consider. . . .
What you have written. . . is not what Christians believe. Your understanding changes the very nature of God. It takes it out of the realm of a common faith. It turns it into a different faith. Does that make sense? It is no different than someone who does not claim Christianity telling me the nature of God. Your understanding is not common with MOST Christians. You don't share a common salvation.
Which is why. . . ex-way people have such a DIFFICULT time with church. . . an often vampireish reaction to the Cross. . . and issues with the way people worship. It is why ABC had a hard time with being accredited. It is why we have splinter groups. It is because it is another faith. Why would one go to a church that holds differing beliefs than yours. Because you label yourself a Christian?
I will be flayed alive for this. . . so be it. It is the same thing they fought about in the first centuries of the church. Gnosticism.
Now, to turn your logic back on you. . . . you said to me in another thread. . . that God was able to preserve His word and handle the devil. Good for you. . .you believe God is able. Given the same logic which refuted Mike's claim that the original intent was lost. Is God not able to, in His providence, preserve for His people an understanding of His nature? Would He do this within the church? Where His people dwell. Most Christians?
We had it wrong. We were on the outside looking in. We were trying to redefine God and His nature. . . .We were telling them they "misunderstood".
We were not welcome because of these very teachings. They infect and they cling and those not grounded and strong in their faith are protected in the church by those who are. It is why we have creeds. . . it is why we have teachings. . . it is HOW we define cults. . . it is why we don't accredit bible colleges who deny the triune nature of God.
It is why many can no longer find a haven or home outside of the cults. . . it isn't there.
If you believe one way. . . . that God is different than I believe. . . . I fall into the "Most" category. . . Do we share a common faith? No, we don't.
God's whole plan was to redeem man to Himself. . . . He gives them hundreds of years of Prophecies about how to recognize the redeemer, everything points to Jesus. . . Jonah, Moses, Joseph, Job, David, Isaiah. . . . EVERYTHING! Agreed. And none of them ever said the Messiah would be God in human form. He would be the Son of God as well as a descendant of David. Then John comes along. . . the final prophet, who goes into explicit visual DETAIL about who the redeemer would be. . . Agreed again. And he said he wrote his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" (John 20:31). the spirit Himself comes along to testify. . . a voice from HEAVEN comes out, Which says, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased... and they still rejected who He is. . . . it takes the Holy Spirit to lead people. . . to Jesus. Agreed.
"Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." Agreed. But what is it to speak by the Holy Spirit? That is what I intend to demonstrate in this discussion.
The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to point people to Jesus. He helps people recognize who Jesus is, and He confirms it. Agreed. But how do we know whether what we think we believe is confirmed by the Holy Spirit? It must line up with what the Scriptures say. The Spirit and the Word work together.
It is not secret, hidden, or misunderstood knowledge. . . . or an enlightened training in classical greek. . . . NOW God can truly say man is without excuse.
If you have a different belief of the Holy Spirit. . . stands to reason you are not going to recognize as "Most" Christians do. . . that Jesus is God.
Instead of trying to understand and humble ourselves to what "Most" Christians know about God. . . including Bullinger. . . we just invent an new religion to support our own way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
TWI taught (based largely on Bullinger) that there were different meanings for the phrase "holy spirit" and for the word "spirit" by itself. This is true, but as I said in a previous post, TWI rarely if ever dealt with the Hebrew word and how it is used in the Old Testament, even though Bullinger did. The words for "spirit" in both Greek and Hebrew do have a number of different meanings, but all relate to the basic idea of an invisible force or influence. In the excerpts from articles I posted last time, I talked about the difference between soul and spirit, and the Hebrew words used for each.
To continue from my Holy Spirit article:
I realize this is a lot to take in all at once. But it is not just something I made up. Many recognized Bible reference books concur, and this definition is what one sees when one approaches the Scriptures without preconceived ideas.
The holy spirit takes on added significance in the New Testament, especially when we start to see references to the Spirit of Christ. More on that next time.
Edited by Mark ClarkeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
From the website, Christian Monotheism
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
Here's a question:
If the Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father, which one is the father of Jesus? Many passages refer to God the Father of the Lord Jesus. But some refer to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit. This makes perfect sense if you understand the Holy Spirit as God's power in operation.
But if the Holy Spirit is a person, how could he be the one that conceived Jesus? Wouldn't that make him the father? Then what of God the Father?
I believe most Trinitarians would say that God is the Father of Jesus, and not any one person of the Trinity. But if they all have an equal part, then God the Son, i.e. Jesus, must be his own father as well. See the confusion gendered by this doctrine which is nowhere presented in the Bible?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Mark,
If you have so many questions, perhaps you should find a good bible believing church, and a minister who graduated from an accredited theological seminary to sit down prayerfully with a bible and expound on these things with you.
It is my express hope for you.
We seek God, and humble ourselves before Him. Endless disputes over words and arguments against who God isn't and how all Christians who claim an intimate relationship with God and do His work are "wrong", is not the way to understand.
It is not even close. You question, great, question God. Ask Him, don't tell Him who He is or isn't. . . . because we can ALL read the same verse of scripture and see differing things depending on our knowledge and own understanding.
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me.
You said to me in another thread we needed a bible to know God. Well, I let it go. However, what we need is someone to tell us about God to believe. The Holy Spirit confirms the truth in our hearts. If you have to ask me what that means. . . or how one knows. . . it is clear it has never happened.
You need to pray and be patient. Deliverance can take years, but God is so merciful and gracious. If we humble ourselves before Him, express our hearts, which are already laid bare and truly desire to go beyond our own head knowledge. . . He will be kind and He will be gracious to us. Stop hopping from one faith to another outside of Christianity to find the Christian God. Any group who claims to have the "right" understanding but stands opposed to it, might be a problem.
You seem to forget I believed both ways. I sang the songs mocking the trinity. I had volumious arguments against that which I rejected. Words and words and endless disputes in arrogance.
Makes me queasy to even consider it now.
This is not about a gentle or kinder way to say I am still right. . . all Christians wrong. Most Christians? No . . . ALL. . . to be a Christian you must confess Jesus as Lord? No? "Whom do you say I am?"
God is to be glorified. God is glorified, and will be. That is what we were made for. . . to worship. Sunesis said the most profound thing on here ages ago. She said. . . "you will never understand the greatness of what was done for you" Still sticks with me. That is how we glorify and worship. When we understand the greatness of what was done. We do that when we understand who God is. .. . revealed to us through scripture via THE Holy Spirit. . . who is GOD.
The symbolism of a dove from heaven. . . it should bring you closer to God. . . it should reveal something to you about the character of God. Jesus. . . should bring you closer to God. . . reveal God to you. Our creator, a God so big as not to be contained in a little box carried around on the shoulders of men. . . has expressed Himself to us.
This is what you look for. . . . this is the "truth" you seek. . . GOD. . . not head knowledge . . . but HIM!! Truth is a person a WHO. . . . No man alone saved you. . . . God did.
Don't get hung up on endless disputes over words. . . like person. . . it is just a word. . . a way to describe something distinct. You are not just body alone, or spirit alone, or soul alone. All three make up one person. Seperate and distinct yet one. You are made in His image.
Good luck, God's nature and an understanding of the gospel are all wrapped up together. Worship is our response. Any real knowledge of Him should be setting you up for feet washing. . . not argument.
http://www.rzim.org/IN/INFV/tabid/437/Arti...74/Default.aspx
http://www.rzim.org/IN/Resources/Read/Enga...40/Default.aspx
Meekness and majesty, manhood and deity
In perfect harmony, the Man Who is God;
Lord of eternity, dwells in humanity,
Kneels in humility and washes our feet!
O what a mystery!
Meekness and majesty -
Bow down and worship
For this is your God! :)
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
If you really want to begin to understand what it means when one says the person of the Holy Spirit. . . this may help a bit.
http://www.rzim.org/IN/INFV/tabid/437/Arti...78/Default.aspx
Copied in part with permission. . . .
The Personality of God has often been defined in terms of the stand-alone qualities of intellect, emotion and will. No doubt, a good reason behind this conclusion has been the result of our reflection on corresponding qualities in human persons. So far, so good. But can and do these qualities exist in isolation?
Is not the intellect the activity of the mind about something? Is not the emotion a feeling about another? Is not the will active in deciding and acting freely with regard to available choices?
I submit that personality in God and in us cannot be understood in isolation but in relationship. The Ultimate Person, God, therefore will not be absolute and perfect except as Person in Community. To be sure, the Church did not formulate the doctrine of the Trinity as the result of an extended philosophical reflection of the kind described above. The first disciples who were strictly monotheistic Jews were inescapably driven to the doctrine because of their exposure to the divinity of Christ as well as their familiarity with His explicit relationship with the One Whom He called His Father. This route to Trinitarian conclusions needs to be explored although that is not the purpose of this essay. Here we are content to let reason reflect on revelation – an exercise recommended by Oxford theologian, Alistair McGrath.
The Trinitarian understanding of God gives an excellent starting point for the branch of philosophy called epistemology. This particular branch deals with questions pertaining to knowledge. In the New Testament, Jesus’ striking statement in Matthew 11:27 has profound epistemological implications in addition to the obvious relational aspects it describes. We may legitimately expatiate on this verse to show that the omniscience of God is not dependent upon His knowledge of His creation although that is how this divine quality is often defined. Such an understanding will require the implausibility of making God dependent on His creation to actualise His capacity for knowledge. For God to be truly exhaustive in His knowledge of the Other, the Other will necessarily have to be as infinite and coextensive as God Himself. Because God is infinitely relational, the necessary subject-object relationship necessary for such knowledge is contained within His own Being.
The prophetic passage in Proverbs 8:22-31 (particularly vv. 30,31) has puzzled and confounded Jewish commentators who nevertheless saw Messianic possibilities in it. For the Christian, these verses are the delightful precursors of the Father’s pleasure in Jesus (Matthew 3:17 and many other verses). The emotions of God are nothing short of the mutual delight infinitely and eternally enjoyed by the Father and the Son. The self-confessed Christian hedonist, John Piper has put his finger rightly on this aspect of the Christian’s privilege. The Song of Solomon occupies a central place in the Scriptures only because sexual love in human marriage sacredly reflects the mutually enjoyable and satisfying relationship within the Trinity.
Willful actions and morality are inseparable. The infinite holiness of God can be seen not as one of ascetic separation but of an eternal love-commitment to the Other. While asceticism recommends breaking of relationships, true virtue consists in building them. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in John 17: 24b. The eternal love-relationship between the Father and the Son is the crown of divine holiness. The blazing glory of the Godhead is in some sublime way linked to this eternal Communion between the Persons of the Trinity (John 17:2,4,5,22,24).
What about the Holy Spirit? None of the three aspects of the Super-Personality of God would be realised without the activity of the Infinite Person of the Holy Spirit. The mutual knowledge between the Father and Son is made possible only by the Spirit as He makes that knowledge possible for us (I Corinthians 2:10,11). The joy and delight of the Godhead is the joy of the Holy Spirit (Romans 14: 17). The Medium of communication of infinite love between the Father and the Son has to be Infinite Himself – the Sprit Who now pours out that love into our hearts (Romans 5:5). It is the Spirit Who provides space and freedom for the Son to be Son and the Father to be Father because He is the Spirit of freedom (II Corinthians 3:17). But He is the Spirit Who makes One the Father and the Son so that we have one God, not three. That is the Sprit’s ministry to us as well (I Corinthians 12:13). In the Infinite-Personal-Relational God of the Bible, the Individuality of the 3 Persons and the One Community of the God-head are both equally sacrosanct.
Sterile conceptual monotheism is an arid desert. The robust Trinitarian God of the Bible, on the other hand, is the profound ravisher of the hearts and minds of His worshippers.
- L.T.Jeyachandran
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
A little bit more Mark, so you can understand why it is hard for me to hear you pronounce misunderstanding on "most" Christians. From the perspective of another faith. I honestly don't think you understand most Christians. . . here is a bit that might help you understand better.
Copied with permission. http://www.rzim.org/GlobalElements/GFV/tab...78/Default.aspx
As an apologist, I am often engaged in conversations that involve the philosophical, theological, scientific, and historical reasons by which one could reasonably conclude that Jesus is exactly who he said he was--the eternal God now come in the flesh. But interestingly enough, Jesus tells us in John 13:34-35 that the final apologetic by which this world will recognize that he was sent by God is the demonstrable love-relationship that will be seen in the lives of his disciples.
Why is it that the unfathomable truth of Word made flesh can only be conclusively understood in a living, verifiable community of believers? Why is it that of all the methods that the evil one could invent to thwart the purposes of God, none would succeed so spectacularly as the disruption of relationships among the members of the body of Christ?
There is one simple but profound answer. God is a Being in relationship and any truth pertaining to Him, in the final analysis, stands attested by exemplary relationships among his creatures.
To the clever lawyer who questioned him about the greatest commandment in all of Scripture, Jesus significantly refrained from giving religious or ritualistic requirements; instead, he had only two simple relational injunctions to offer: "Love your God" and "Love your neighbor" (Matthew 22:34-40). By placing these two commands at the same level, Jesus brought relationships into focus. Thus, worshipping God is not about mere observance, but relating to Him in love. He is likewise the one who liberates the individual from the self to love others. The first commandment thus becomes foundational and makes the second obey-able. But by the same token, obedience to the second commandment becomes the evidence that the first has been obeyed. The brilliance of this summation is polluted by the pluralist cacophony assaulting us at every turn.
Yet it is in this context that the Church finds itself entrusted with the onerous responsibility of speaking about the relational nature of God. What better way could there be to communicate this blessed reality than by a model which would uncompromisingly demonstrate it before a watching world!
In this, no contemplation of the beauty and glory of God within a community of believers can be complete without some understanding of the relationship between the Three Persons of the Trinity. The image God has given us in the Trinity is an image of three co-eternal, co-equal Persons giving themselves to one another in eternal self-effacement. The glory of our God is not a thunder-and-lighting quality, but a self-giving love within the Trinity. And Jesus's prayer for his disciples (and us) is that this same glory may be given to us that we "may be one" even as they are one. Is there any question why servanthood and relationship-building is no longer an optional extra for the Christian but essential to reflecting the glory of the Triune God?
In a society that is increasingly fragmented and individualized, it is easy to develop a theology of the Church as a collection of perfect individuals. But a right understanding of the relationships within the Trinity would militate against such an interpretation. We do well to remember the powerfully acted parable of Jesus as he washed the disciples' feet. The feet of all the disciples were dirty, but as they would submit themselves to cleansing by one another, they would emerge as a perfect community (John 13:14). We may fundamentally have no difficulty having ourselves cleansed by Christ, but to submit to ablutions by another is virtually unthinkable. The disciples (and we as well) would have been very happy to wash the feet of Jesus, but his injunction was that they should wash one another's feet. It was a strange but effective way of communicating the importance of relating to one another by forgiving, cleansing, and accepting one another in perfect mutuality. In other words, two imperfect individuals can synergistically portray a perfect relationship--the very antidote so desperately needed to correct our individualistic privatized spirituality!
It is an issue within Scripture that cannot be overemphasized. The hallmark of the Church of Jesus Christ is a relational testimony which serves as a pointer to the reality of the Eternal Triune God. May we, under God, consciously discern every trap that the devil sets for us to rupture relationships, and trust the Holy Spirit of love to breathe his healing and remake our fractured bonds.
It is why we have cults.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
One more Mark, I promise, last one. :) I have been called on the carpet in the doctrinal forums more than once for the way I speak. But, I speak from the heart. It is a heart overflowing and satisfied. Full of worship and praise. I can't help it. I am satisfied in Him. Here is a way to explain it that perhaps you can begin to understand.
There is something in this understanding that not only satisfies the intellect, but the very heart and soul of the one who knows. I no longer have to endlessly prove or debate. I am filled. I just want to share that with you. For you to be filled. Not quest and strive and wander. (There is that language again!)
"All day long we are surrounded by "the spirit of the age." We see it, hear it, and even believe it in bits and pieces. We know people in it and we rear our children in it. There is rarely a time when we can actually remove ourselves from it. It is, in some ways, even in our blood.
But how odd would it be to think that this "spirit of the age" is an actual person. We do not think there is an actual being called "The Spirit of the Age" that marches through time and takes on different shapes and sizes. "The spirit of the age" is no more than an attitude stemmed from certain beliefs of a conglomerate of people in the midst of a culture.
That is not the only way we use the word "spirit" today. If someone has a good attitude, we say, "That's the right spirit." If someone uses energy and gusto, we say, "She sang her song with spirit." If we're talking about the mindset or idea of a person, we say something like, "The spirit of the Wright Brothers is alive and strong at Boeing."
When we say a person has the Spirit of Christ, what do we mean? In one sense, we could be speaking of someone who shares the passion of Christ to help the poor and suffering. If we meant it in this way, "spirit" would be used similarly to the way Gandhi used it. The "Spirit of Jesus" is simply a man to emulate—merely an example for everyone.
But when the Bible talks the Spirit of Christ, it is referring to it in a very different way. This is what makes following Jesus unique to following anyone else. Romans 8:9 says this:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
What is the Apostle Paul saying to the Christians in Rome? He is saying that "Spirit" is not an idea or an attitude. "Spirit" is a living person. In fact, Paul is saying that if we are not rightly related to this person, if this person is not part of our lives, then we do not belong to God. We are still a long way off.
When Christ came into the world he didn't come merely to give us an example in suffering, a good attitude in oppression, nor a way to help the poor and needy, though an example he did give. Rather, he came to reconnect us with God, to birth a relationship with our maker that has no end, to love us who are unlovely, understand us who are easily misunderstood, and to quell our fear of death and suffering because he identified with us in both and conquered their treacherous stings.
The Spirit of Christ is a Person who walks with all who choose to join as citizens of his Kingdom.
He's real, not simply an idea; he's a person ready to meet us in the moment, not merely an example of bygone years.
Malcolm Muggeridge talked about his filming a documentary of the Holy Land. He walked with his friend along the road to Emmaus. The same one mentioned in Luke 24. He said,
"Shortly after the Crucifixion, Cleopas and a friend were walking from Jerusalem to Emmaus and inevitably talking as they went along about the Crucifixion, which had happened so recently. They were joined by a third man who … shared in their conversation. As my friend and I walked along like Cleopas and his friend, we recalled the events of the Crucifixion and its aftermath in the light of our utterly different and yet similar world. Nor was it a fancy that we, too, were joined by a third presence. And I tell you that wherever the walk, and whoever the wayfarers, there is always this third presence ready to emerge from the shadows and fall in step along the dusty, stony way."
When the Spirit is a person, and not just an attitude, then a relationship is not only important, but imperative. It is this Person who promises, if we allow Him, to dwell in us and we in Him. It is this Person who promises to be with us to the very end of the age. Let us think afresh that relating with this Person is the central reason of why we were made."
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Not my favorite Pastor, but he makes a good point. :)
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
You misunderstand me. My questions were not seeking answers or looking for understanding. They were rhetorical questions designed to engage in a discussion, and perhaps afford you an opportunity to explain passages of Scripture from your point of view. I have, in fact, questioned God and found His answers in His Word. I didn't tell Him who He is, He told all of us. But sadly, what you say is true. "We can ALL read the same verse of scripture and see differing things depending on our knowledge and own understanding." This is why we must search the Scriptures. We cannot take someone's word on it without checking it out for ourselves like the Bereans, because so many people see and teach different things from the Bible. Yes, the goal is to have a relationship with God and His Son, but we must get there by understanding, first, the words that His Son spoke, and second, the other words about him that other men of God wrote, which are recorded in the Bible.
The only way to find the Trinity in the Bible is to have it in your mind to start with. When I approach the Scriptures without those pre-conceived glasses, I find a beautiful story of God promising Abraham offspring, land, and many blessings for the whole world. I find Him telling Moses that He would raise up a prophet from among Moses' brethren, whose words would be God's own words, and whom we must hear. I find Him promising David that a descendant of his would sit on his throne, and his reign would be forever. I find promise after promise of a Messiah who would be a man, but also the Son of God (not God Himself in human form). I find that man in the person of Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, who proclaimed the good news that the Kingdom was at hand, and who gave his very life on the cross for us to be able to enter that Kingdom. I find him living in our hearts by way of the holy spirit, and being able to strengthen us and encourage us in a way he never could while on earth. And I find the promise of a glorious future in paradise on a renewed earth. But none of these things suggests anything of three persons in one God. It's just not in there. Truly, God is to be glorified. And we do that by giving honor to His Son as the Lord and King (Phil. 2:11). You said, "to be a Christian you must confess Jesus as Lord? No?" That's correct. We confess Jesus as Lord. That doesn't mean we must confess him as God the Son.
Again, you misunderstand me. I wasn't asking how the holy spirit confirms the truth in our hearts. But there are many people who believe many different things about God, yet are all equally convinced that the holy spirit has revealed the truth in their hearts. The way not to be deceived is to compare what the spirit reveals to you with what the spirit has revealed to the men who wrote by inspiration of the same spirit. The Spirit and the Word work together to establish the truth.
In all of those responses, you never did respond to any of my points. That's your privilege. You say you once believed as I do (that the Trinity was false), yet now you believe in the Trinity. Did you in fact search the Scriptures to come to that conclusion? And also, why is it such a big deal to you that I suggest most Christians may be wrong? Weren't most of them wrong before the Protestant Reformation? Don't you think the devil is capable of deceiving that many people? He is called the Deceiver and the Father of Lies. But that's why God gave us the Bible - so that we could recover the truth in spite of all the error that exists. This is why we are told to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (I Thes. 5:21) and to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (I John 4:1). You're right that we must seek HIM, not just head knowledge, but our seeking of Him must begin with the knowledge of Himself that He has given us. I believe I have done this, and have shown what I believe the Bible teaches.
P.S. - I agree with Mark Driscoll's point. It is serious and there are many false teachers. That's why we need to demonstrate from the Bible that our doctrine is sound. The Trinity is not a sound Biblical doctrine but was developed more than two hundred years after Christ.
Edited by Mark ClarkeLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Mark,
Who says that you must predisposed to the doctrine of the trinity to see it? You? Who are you? I am living proof of the opposite.
You know the scriptures, you know the doctrine. You deny it . You don't see it the way I NOW do. That makes our belief system different.
Can't make it any clearer. If you think you are objective. . . so be it. If you think Christians are in error and you and the cults have the right way. Fine.
Nothing I will say to you will change that. You want to argue. Endless debate. Ever learning. . .
I am satisfied. I know God . . . in Him I am satisfied.
Yes Mark, You have a Jesus. . . you find a beautiful story. The JW's have a Jesus, the Moonies have a Jesus, The Branch Dividians have a Jesus, TWI has a Jesus, Mary Baker Eddy had a Jesus, Word Faith has a Jesus, Islam has a Jesus, The Worldwide Church of God has a Jesus, New age gurus love Jesus. . . .
It doesn't make any of them the Jesus of scripture. Notice the wide variety of Jesus' here. I could post more if you want. Vince Finnegan has a Jesus. . . . John Lynn has a Jesus.
It does matter what Jesus you confess.
Call Him what you want. Argue. . . words and more words. . . articles and volumes about how you are right. . . "Prove" how Christians are wrong.
It still puts you outside the church with a different faith. Because Christians are not wrong. . . nor have they been misguided. They know God. It is a relationship. It is an intimate worshipful, heart flowing, love, relationship. . . as HE is a relationship. Can you relate??
If you think VF or Anthony Buzzard or the Abrahamic Faith is right. . . so be it. . . if that is what you see in scripture and are so sure. . .. fine. Or take some time to study some sound Christian thinkers.
The TRINITY was defined not developed. . . . .I have finally "GOT" this. . . . I landed on the wrong side of this debate once, for me it is now a non issue. . . the thing is. . . Christians don't get tripped up with this one too much anymore. . . . it is understood through scripture,. . . our faith is built on THIS GOD of scripture. . . . this is why another understanding of Jesus dwells in the land of cults.
You actually reject the Jesus I confess.
But, you better be preaching to the cults cause the church won't hear you. This is why Mark Driscoll yells false teaching.
Oh and what I did, was humble myself before God. . . ask Him who He is. . . and read my bible. Fact check? Did I fact check the Holy Spirit? You know the scriptures. We see in them differing things. Spiritual things must be discerned spirtually. My whole understanding changed. It was like a light went on. I was overwhelmed and humbled and praised and truly worshipped God. His presence, His Majesty, His Glory, I am continually undone by His greatness. It is too much for words, which is what I get called on here for. . . often.
It is there. . . and when you see God revealed it will change your life. That is why the new birth is life altering.
God then allowed me to meet the most amazing Christian teachers and pastors. . . my journey has been profound.
I also know every argument you make against the same scriptures. You argue against the scriptures Mark. I did fact check you. It isn't worth my time or yours to ARGUE and endlessly debate. I could NEVER return to such an arid an empty faith.
I just don't want you to miss it. That is my heart in answering you. . . told ya, I really considered it first.
Did you ever consider this really is the same thing as TWI, but dressed up with more words?
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I wonder, do either of you see the irony of this argument. You are both so very concerned that the other may be worshipping the wrong god. God is so much bigger than any defition either of you can come up with. Bigger than any definition I can come up with, or Cman, or Sir.
Neither of you have it completely right. Neither of you have it completely wrong. And in the end, you both have far more in common than you realize.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
The rejection of the Trinity is the same thing as one of TWI's doctrines, one which they happened to get right. But many of their other ones, and many of their practices, I do not condone.
I hadn't really wanted to get into an argument about the Trinity anyway. I wanted to show that TWI's definition of the holy spirit was not Scriptural.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Abi,
No arguing here. I think that is the issue :) . I am getting over a baaaaad stomach flu. Don't have much interest in a debate over something I don't believe anymore and never will again.
I like Mark though. . . and his last post gave me a real chuckle.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
LOL I think my stomach flu took care of prayers for anyone other than myself for the time. You moved quickly to the bottom of list when faced with wretching out "Oh God Pleeeease!"
Should have saved the cash. . . . .
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Get well
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
It sounds like we should be praying for you! :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I wouldn't be offended. . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
Are you feeling better? I've been praying for you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Out of bed, not out of the house. Lucky you, I have been posting! :) Thanks for the prayers, that is lovely, I take ALL I can get!! On the bright side, my skinny jeans are loose!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
Continuing the Holy Spirit article:
In TWI, the "manifestations" were extremely overemphasized, but I don't believe they are the primary or normal activity of the holy spirit. The normal working involves growth and change of heart, which God is more interested in accomplishing in a believer. And this was hardly, if ever, mentioned in the Way. I even asked a limb leader once if the holy spirit might be a power that helps us live more Christian lives. He said he'd never thought of that.
It is this growth and "regeneration of the holy spirit" (Titus 3:5), not "operating manifestations," which produces the fruit of the spirit. As the Word of God, which is the heart of God, grows in a believer, the attributes of God become more and more evident in his life. Then a person realizes love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, which are called the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5:22. This is another way to tell if someone demonstrating power is genuine or not. Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16,20).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
leafytwiglet
ROFL
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.