How can you believe that people would have been ultimately "hurt some other way" and NOT believe they might also have ultimately received the information from another source?
If kismet applies to one, it should apply to the other.
I've read a book from a man that was a contemporary of Calvin's by the name of Tyndale. He talks a little about the predestination concept in his introduction to the book of Romans in his 1534 New Testament. Check this out from the 1989 reprinting with modern spelling from Yale University press----
Library of congress number 88037936 (What the heck, at least Tyndale was the real deal) :B)
"But here must a mark be set unto those unquiet, busy and high-climbing spirits how far they shall go, which first of all bring hither their high reasons and pregnant wits, and begin first from on high to search the bottomless secrets of God's predestination, whether they be predestinate or not. These must needs either cast themselves down headlong into desperation or else commit themselves to free chance careless."
and
"For except thou have bourne the cross of adversity and temptation, and hast felt thyself brought to the very brim of desperation, yea and unto hell gates, thou canst never meddle with the sentence of predestination without thine own harm, and without secret wrath and grudging inwardly against God, for otherwise it shall not be possible for thee to think that God is righteous and just."
___________________
I'm thinking that if that is how Tyndale thought about Calvinism, then he would have been enraged by those who blame TWI victims. But then I can't speak for Tyndale, so maybe it is only me.
(edited for spelling)
(added in editing) Tyndale ran with Luther's crowd.
Bring hither your pregnant wit and high reason to explain away innocence lost, lives ruined, and seek to put your own soul to the pungent salve of your theology.
Salve your own conscience, if you can, with high minded reasons for vile abuses. All the better to keep thy path. What matter if your innermost thoughts blame God for Wierwille's actions?
(edited for grammar)
(added in editing)
Dear Waysider,
I'm still not sure that I understand the sentence that passed through your braincell though.:) Bye for now.
Maybe the folly of ignorantly considering the factors of God's predestination is that we tend to construct our worldviews entirely according to our own misconceptions.
If we are inclined to hold on to the memory of a teacher who did such vile things that according to God's word merit complete and utter destruction of most anything that comes from said work that anytime we meddle with God's predestination we can at best only grasp at straws, attempting to believe anything that would tend to keep us in our unwillingnes to face the truth.
For those that hold onto TWI teachings, and I count myself to be one of them, I think that is most necessary to be able to look at a very ugly situation honestly. I've had to discard some of PFAL in order to at least think in my own mind that the Bible is true. I'm glad that in my case there doesn't seem to be anything that I can think of, doctrinally speaking, that I haven't been willing to hold on to without having something eating away at me for lack of having a good answer.
Wierwille said he asked God for answers that he wouldn't have to back down on, but I have come to recognize that that is not the case with PFAL doctrine. This way I don't have to avoid direct confrontations as is the manner of some. I don't have to put people down in order to lessen the effects of points that I cannot deal with. I don't have to claim victory in a discussion just for effect which only serves to justify the stand of those who happen to already believe the same folly I do. I suspect that Wierwille should have backed down on many things but simply refused. And choosing to be this kind of man, he still to this day carries some along with him in his own folly.
Those carried along still in Wierwille's folly are the ones who will even twist God's predestination in order to lessen the impact of the effect of Wierwille's many abuses. I do not see how they can do this in the face of many clear facts and credible testimonies. And I think it is very human to get histerical and accusatory when the facts tend to contradict any belief that has been held for a long time. Especially in this case, if a person wants to believe that because of what Wierwille said, they will never have to back down on PFAL doctrine.
I freely quote and think very highly of Willam Tyndale, but I credit him for the things that I've learned from his writings. I'm not vainglorious about claiming his writings as my very own as Wierwille did to many when he stole their works and put his own name on them. Therefore, I'm free to say that even though I believe many of the things that I learned in PFAL I prefer to also get to know the men that Wierwille stole from. IMO they tend to freely credit their sources as I like to do also. But Wierwille did not.
Those that will even invoke Calvinist theology in order to lessen the impact of the kind of man that Wierwille really was are only being carried along in Wierwille's folly to this very day.
Dear Waysider,
I decided to share because I think today I understand that first post of yours a little better.
I can't take in all the variations in that link to predestination. It is too much at one time.
But it certainly seems like Tyndale was correct in the "pregnant wit" comment as it applied to the men of his time. I feel like I'm looking at these mens' great great great great grandchildren when I look at the multitude of predestination doctrines. A bunch of their little knee-biters running around.
Those carried along still in Wierwille's folly are the ones who will even twist God's predestination in order to lessen the impact of the effect of Wierwille's many abuses. I do not see how they can do this in the face of many clear facts and credible testimonies. And I think it is very human to get histerical and accusatory when the facts tend to contradict any belief that has been held for a long time. Especially in this case, if a person wants to believe that because of what Wierwille said, they will never have to back down on PFAL doctrine.
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waysider
To clarify my rambling in post # 21. (hopefully)
How can you believe that people would have been ultimately "hurt some other way" and NOT believe they might also have ultimately received the information from another source?
If kismet applies to one, it should apply to the other.
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rascal
Great point.
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Bolshevik
This all reminds me of the "victim mentality" teachings.
One way or another, it ain't yer fault. blah blah blah . . .
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JeffSjo
Hi Waysider, cool thread.
I've read a book from a man that was a contemporary of Calvin's by the name of Tyndale. He talks a little about the predestination concept in his introduction to the book of Romans in his 1534 New Testament. Check this out from the 1989 reprinting with modern spelling from Yale University press----
Library of congress number 88037936 (What the heck, at least Tyndale was the real deal) :B)
"But here must a mark be set unto those unquiet, busy and high-climbing spirits how far they shall go, which first of all bring hither their high reasons and pregnant wits, and begin first from on high to search the bottomless secrets of God's predestination, whether they be predestinate or not. These must needs either cast themselves down headlong into desperation or else commit themselves to free chance careless."
and
"For except thou have bourne the cross of adversity and temptation, and hast felt thyself brought to the very brim of desperation, yea and unto hell gates, thou canst never meddle with the sentence of predestination without thine own harm, and without secret wrath and grudging inwardly against God, for otherwise it shall not be possible for thee to think that God is righteous and just."
___________________
I'm thinking that if that is how Tyndale thought about Calvinism, then he would have been enraged by those who blame TWI victims. But then I can't speak for Tyndale, so maybe it is only me.
(edited for spelling)
(added in editing) Tyndale ran with Luther's crowd.
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JeffSjo
Bring hither your pregnant wit and high reason to explain away innocence lost, lives ruined, and seek to put your own soul to the pungent salve of your theology.
Salve your own conscience, if you can, with high minded reasons for vile abuses. All the better to keep thy path. What matter if your innermost thoughts blame God for Wierwille's actions?
(edited for grammar)
(added in editing)
Dear Waysider,
I'm still not sure that I understand the sentence that passed through your braincell though.:) Bye for now.
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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JeffSjo
Maybe the folly of ignorantly considering the factors of God's predestination is that we tend to construct our worldviews entirely according to our own misconceptions.
If we are inclined to hold on to the memory of a teacher who did such vile things that according to God's word merit complete and utter destruction of most anything that comes from said work that anytime we meddle with God's predestination we can at best only grasp at straws, attempting to believe anything that would tend to keep us in our unwillingnes to face the truth.
For those that hold onto TWI teachings, and I count myself to be one of them, I think that is most necessary to be able to look at a very ugly situation honestly. I've had to discard some of PFAL in order to at least think in my own mind that the Bible is true. I'm glad that in my case there doesn't seem to be anything that I can think of, doctrinally speaking, that I haven't been willing to hold on to without having something eating away at me for lack of having a good answer.
Wierwille said he asked God for answers that he wouldn't have to back down on, but I have come to recognize that that is not the case with PFAL doctrine. This way I don't have to avoid direct confrontations as is the manner of some. I don't have to put people down in order to lessen the effects of points that I cannot deal with. I don't have to claim victory in a discussion just for effect which only serves to justify the stand of those who happen to already believe the same folly I do. I suspect that Wierwille should have backed down on many things but simply refused. And choosing to be this kind of man, he still to this day carries some along with him in his own folly.
Those carried along still in Wierwille's folly are the ones who will even twist God's predestination in order to lessen the impact of the effect of Wierwille's many abuses. I do not see how they can do this in the face of many clear facts and credible testimonies. And I think it is very human to get histerical and accusatory when the facts tend to contradict any belief that has been held for a long time. Especially in this case, if a person wants to believe that because of what Wierwille said, they will never have to back down on PFAL doctrine.
I freely quote and think very highly of Willam Tyndale, but I credit him for the things that I've learned from his writings. I'm not vainglorious about claiming his writings as my very own as Wierwille did to many when he stole their works and put his own name on them. Therefore, I'm free to say that even though I believe many of the things that I learned in PFAL I prefer to also get to know the men that Wierwille stole from. IMO they tend to freely credit their sources as I like to do also. But Wierwille did not.
Those that will even invoke Calvinist theology in order to lessen the impact of the kind of man that Wierwille really was are only being carried along in Wierwille's folly to this very day.
Dear Waysider,
I decided to share because I think today I understand that first post of yours a little better.
JEFF
(edited for spelling)
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JeffSjo
Hi again Waysider,
I can't take in all the variations in that link to predestination. It is too much at one time.
But it certainly seems like Tyndale was correct in the "pregnant wit" comment as it applied to the men of his time. I feel like I'm looking at these mens' great great great great grandchildren when I look at the multitude of predestination doctrines. A bunch of their little knee-biters running around.
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JeffSjo
Dear Waysider,
I tried taking in that link to "predestination" again.
Eyes glazing over......
Losing focus.....
What?....who?....
Darn Knee-biters!
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WordWolf
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