None other than I think it's indicative of a mind that isn't working very well. Which is why I don't spend a lot of time conversing with the owner of said mind.
As momma always told me "You can't argue with a crazy person"...
Well ...aside from being sickened and offended at drugging, seduction, rape, child abuse, families destroyed and death of people at the hands of this man and the men he trained...being laid at the feet of God...that these people had it coming as a matter of course...whew
I guess that I am amazed at the evil that can be excused, condoned and ignored in this man in order for ones theology to have any credibility.
All in all, the callousness required to believe this makes me very very sad.
I'd also love to see this, perhaps as a new thread. Shaz, if you'd quote the post where Mike said those things about the victims getting it from someone other than vpw if he hadn't abused them, I'd sure love to see a thread on that because I have plenty to say about how people end up victimized by sharks trolling for victims and setting themselves up as saviors to get access to them.
I'm not Shaz, but I found the post easily enough.
pg-12, post 224, "ONLY Rule..." thread.
(snip)
When WE select pastors and ministers there are certain common sense and scriptural guidelines that we should follow. We do not have infinite wisdom, nor foreknowledge, nor the ability to read a person's heart, only their outward actions. We are often not so good at getting revelation accurate either. FOR THESE reasons the guidelines we are given when WE select leaders tell us to do it in such a way that we protect the flock, kind of erring on the safe side if any error is to take place.
Now when GOD selects a man to get a specific job done for Him, and it's a job that hadn't been done by anyone in thousands of years, and God is not hampered like we are. He has infinite wisdom, foreknowledge, and the ability to read a man's heart IN SPITE of his outward actions.
With all this in mind, do you think the guidelines for God are going to be the same for us? I don't. I think God is wise enough to not need the guidelines.
You see we did not select VPW to "put it all together" and distribute it around the world. God selected Dr to get the job done and it got done.
Anyone hurt in the process would have probably gotten hurt some other way, and either way God is there to help them get healed if they want it.
I know hardly anyone has thought this through very far. This should be pondered for a while before a knee jerk rejection takes place.
(snip)
From Mike...
Uh yeah, Mike, and I didn't buy it then either.
Mike had said that God needed a renegade type of personality, someone who would buck the tide of popular opinion, which is why He chose VPW to write PFAL. Never mind all the scripture verses that say what kind of man God chooses. God wanted an adulterer, child molester, drunkard, liar, and narcissist to teach PFAL because only he would have a mind free enough to dare to plagiarize, er, re-arrange the words of others to make them into God's holy PFAL.
And Mike? That stuff where you said those who were hurt by Wierwille would have been hurt some other way if he hadn't been around was about the lowest. If VP hadn't raped those women someone else would have? Sorry, the scripture I read, and there is nothing so-so in the texts about it, says something entirely different about how God thinks about child molesters and adulterers. Something about a millstone around the neck, and "go and sin no more."
You also sort of forgot my answer back then, which was that God didn't work with people while they were living in sin, but rather when they were doing His will. Even you acknowledge that Wierwille was steeped in debauchery throughout the time he was writing those books and running TWI.
thanks you guys. I would have done it myself if I hadn't had to fly out the door, and I would have hated to see that post disappear before it could be discussed.
so gawd (watch out, wayspeak in use) in his foreknowledge knew that women would be raped and drugged and the time and money of good-hearted people would used to buy toys for the man of gawd, so it MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN VPW since it was going to happen anyway, and gawd would heal them if they wanted it and were meek enough so it's ok, and we all gotta remember that AT LEAST WE GOT "THE WORD" because obviously, only vpw had the right heart to receive what gawd had to tell him.
thanks you guys. I would have done it myself if I hadn't had to fly out the door, and I would have hated to see that post disappear before it could be discussed.
so gawd (watch out, wayspeak in use) in his foreknowledge knew that women would be raped and drugged and the time and money of good-hearted people would used to buy toys for the man of gawd, so it MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN VPW since it was going to happen anyway, and gawd would heal them if they wanted it and were meek enough so it's ok, and we all gotta remember that AT LEAST WE GOT "THE WORD" because obviously, only vpw had the right heart to receive what gawd had to tell him.
excuse me while I puke.
I may join you potato. . . heartbreaking. But, you know what gets me? In this little scenario. . . the only way to get healing is to learn about God. . . from the only source on earth since the 1st century. . . . PFAL. . . . taught by the unrepentant man who did the hurting. Got me?. . . Sounds really reasonable. . . No?
Rascal nailed it. . . the lengths some have gone to simply to justify this man and his theology. Who was he anyway? Just some old guy from Ohio. . . . he wasn't my father or my uncle or guardian of the truth. . . No. . . . he wasn't really anything to me. Why did I EVER think he was?
None other than I think it's indicative of a mind that isn't working very well. Which is why I don't spend a lot of time conversing with the owner of said mind.
As momma always told me "You can't argue with a crazy person"...
"Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." --Proverbs 14:7
I may join you potato. . . heartbreaking. But, you know what gets me? In this little scenario. . . the only way to get healing is to learn about God. . . from the only source on earth since the 1st century. . . . PFAL. . . . taught by the unrepentant man who did the hurting. Got me?. . . Sounds really reasonable. . . No?
Rascal nailed it. . . the lengths some have gone to simply to justify this man and his theology. Who was he anyway? Just some old guy from Ohio. . . . he wasn't my father or my uncle or guardian of the truth. . . No. . . . he wasn't really anything to me. Why did I EVER think he was?
Oh for Ch**** sake! Get a clue man!!
All the real devils are out trying to prove [attempting to prove once again - but horribly failing] they are "holier-than-you-know-who".
All the real devils are out trying to prove [attempting to prove once again - but horribly failing] they are "holier-than-you-know-who".
I don't see anybody trying to prove they are "holier-than-you-know".
What I see are some people who are offended by this statement:
"You see we did not select VPW to "put it all together" and distribute it around the world. God selected Dr to get the job done and it got done. Anyone hurt in the process would have probably gotten hurt some other way, and either way God is there to help them get healed if they want it."
This is a statement that was made recently on another thread regarding people who were adversely affected by the depraved lifestyle of VPW.
**********************************
"You see we did not select VPW to "put it all together" and distribute it around the world. God selected Dr to get the job done and it got done. Anyone hurt in the process would have probably gotten hurt some other way, and either way God is there to help them get healed if they want it."
***********************************
I'm personally at a loss to understand the sort of rationalization it would take to accept this statement.
Any comments?got in the way in 1980 had some good leaders had some mean leaders,when the twig i was in split off from twi in 1987 i stayed with it ( the independent fellowship) when the independent fellowship ceased to exhist after several years i found a twi fellowship to attend, then i moved a few years later and attended a twi fellowship with a major "A" of a coordinator , i spoke up about him and he was fired and we got a nice new coordinator,a year or so later martindale wanted a superclean household and for some unknown reason i was booted out,a few years later i met up with someone in twi i had known and was told about lcm being fired and decided to start going to twi again,boy was i surprised to find this was not my grandpas ministry (I am my own grandpa,i got proof i was born in mississippi !!!) that was 2001 and as far as i know to this day peole who would hurt or be major "A" 's are not tolerated, yeah i got hurt a few times and so did others at the mouths of those that never should have ben put up with ,but i took lowely believers like me not being afraid to speak up ,i'v ben on both sides the independents and twi and have experenced hurt from both, if the way ceased to exhist i'd find others who would rightly divide the word and go to there fellowship,GOD looks on the heart and not at what church you go to ,now i must go and see if i can find some old friends here , i already got united with a few a while back i got friends in all kinds of groups ,GOD bless you, btw GOD also rides in a FORD !!!!
I hope you don't mind;I've taken the liberty of reformatting your response for easier readability.
If you would prefer I not do that in the future, just say the word.
***************************
got in the way in 1980
had some good leaders had some mean leaders,
when the twig i was in split off from twi in 1987 i stayed with it ( the independent fellowship)
when the independent fellowship ceased to exhist after several years i found a twi fellowship to attend, then i moved a few years later and attended a twi fellowship with a major "A" of a coordinator ,
i spoke up about him and he was fired and we got a nice new coordinator,
a year or so later martindale wanted a superclean household and for some unknown reason i was booted out,
a few years later i met up with someone in twi i had known and was told about lcm being fired and decided to start going to twi again,
boy was i surprised to find this was not my grandpas ministry (I am my own grandpa,i got proof i was born in mississippi !!!)
that was 2001 and as far as i know to this day peole who would hurt or be major "A" 's are not tolerated,
yeah i got hurt a few times and so did others at the mouths of those that never should have ben put up with ,but it took lowely believers like me not being afraid to speak up
i'v ben on both sides the independents and twi and have experenced hurt from both,
if the way ceased to exhist i'd find others who would rightly divide the word and go to there fellowship,
GOD looks on the heart and not at what church you go to ,
now i must go and see if i can find some old friends here , i already got united with a few a while back
that was 2001 and as far as i know to this day peole who would hurt or be major "A" 's are not tolerated,
yeah i got hurt a few times and so did others at the mouths of those that never should have ben put up with ,but it took lowely believers like me not being afraid to speak up
probably depends on where you are, but plenty of A's are still tolerated and in fact are in key leadership positions. I just left in 2006, so I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. it's still the same "ministry" as it was when lcm took it over, it's just that now the upper echelon doesn't care as much about what people do because they have all the abs they need to have a comfy retirement. twi is a big joke, especially from the pov of "research ministry".
All the real devils are out trying to prove [attempting to prove once again - but horribly failing] they are "holier-than-you-know-who".
Geisha is of the female persuasion. . . did you just call me clueless, a devil, take the Lords name in vain, call me self-righteous and a failure all in the same breath?
Yes, people might well have got hurt some other way.
But they didn't have to get hurt by someone masquerading as a Teacher, a minister, a man of God, somebody who would help them and not hurt them, someone from whom they could have reasonable expectations of behavior.
Everyone knows that this world has many people who are out to trick them, to dupe them, to harm them in some way or other. There are also many great people (and those people may or may not be Christians) who are open, generous, and would never hurt anyone. In worldly terms, we learn to be wary of others and to consider their motives. Even so, we may get fooled often enough. And hurt, in the process.
From reading posts here at the Cafe, it seems there were quite a number of young and vulnerable people, especially women, who thought they had found safety and help - and perhaps they did, initially, at the lower levels of TWI.
In the Christian area, we tend to be more trusting. We look to ministers to - well, minister, serve, us - not minister to themselves. We do not expect to get hurt in the Christian area. And if we are, we expect quick repentance and making up.
Yes, people might well have got hurt.
But probably not by church leaders, not so many people, not over such a long period. Nor would they expect to be abused and hurt by those close to the said offending minister(s) who had trained other minister(s) to hurt and abuse the congregation.
Especially the vulnerable congregants who had specifically sought out help. Or had been forced by various means to expose their vulnerabilities.
It's a mean thought by someone who hasn't learned compassion.
And that's all I'm saying, before I get too riled up.
thing is, the "word" was supposed to make us stronger. the "ministry" was supposed to be a safe haven.
I'd already been hurt. spent time in therapy, was making good, positive changes in my life. the "promises" of god attracted me because I wanted to be stronger, serve god, and be around people who lived a loving lifestyle. twi was just not the place to find that, and the damage done by leadership put me in a place worse than I'd come from.
so yeah, life hurts sometimes, but I find that in post-twi, now that I'm in a place where I've learned to think for myself, I handle the hurt better and I'm not in constant fear of someone melting my face over trivialities. I'm better equipped to handle the tough things in life now that I've shed the false trappings of pretended strength we were taught in twi.
Exactly. All in the guise of telling us to be "meek" to God. Actually, that abuses God even more than it abuses us.
We simply wouldn't have put up with this garbage elsewhere. If any church minister behaved in this manner now, would we put up with it?
If TWI know-it-alls could have distanced themselves from their own egos, they would have seen that the specks of dust in our lives were just that, specks of dust; and not seen so very close up through their own egos so that dust was magnified into planks.
Even then, the hurts wouldn't be there still so painfully if there were open and honest exposure, apology and rectification.
Here's a wacky thought that passed through my brain cell.
If, on one hand, one applies the Calvinist "predestination concept" to rationalize that people would have ultimately been "hurt some other way", how, on the other hand, can they then dismiss said concept as it relates to the possibility of hearing the information from another source?
*************************************
"In common English parlance, the doctrine of predestination often has particular reference to the doctrines of Calvinism. The version of predestination espoused by John Calvin, after whom Calvinism is named, is sometimes referred to as "double predestination" because in it God predestines some people for salvation (i.e. Unconditional election) and some for condemnation (i.e. Reprobation). Calvin himself defines predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. Not all are created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death."[4].
On the spectrum of beliefs concerning predestination, Calvinism is the strongest form among Christians. It teaches that God's predestining decision is based on the knowledge of His own will rather than foreknowledge, concerning every particular person and event; and, God continually acts with entire freedom, in order to bring about his will in completeness, but in such a way that the freedom of the creature is not violated, "but rather, established"[5]
Calvinists who hold the infralapsarian view of predestination usually prefer that term to "sublapsarianism," perhaps with the intent of blocking the inference that they believe predestination is on the basis of foreknowledge (sublapsarian meaning, assuming the fall into sin).[6] The different terminology has the benefit of distinguishing the Calvinist double predestination version of infralapsarianism, from Lutheranism's view that predestination is a mystery, which forbids the unprofitable intrusion of prying minds.
Calvinists seek never to divide predestination in a mathematical way. Their doctrine is uninterested, in the abstract, in questions of "how much" either God or man is responsible for a particular destiny. Questions of "how much" will become hopelessly entangled in paradox, Calvinists teach, regardless of the view of predestination adopted. Instead, Calvinism divides the issues of predestination according to two kinds of being, knowledge, and will, distinguishing that which is divine from that which is human. Therefore, it is not so much an issue of quantity, but of distinct roles or modes of being. God is not a creature nor the creature God in knowledge, will, freedom, ability, responsibility, or anything else. Calvinists will often attribute salvation entirely to God; and yet they will also assert that it is man's responsibility to pursue obedience. As the archetypal illustration of this idea, they believe Jesus in his words and work humanly fulfilled all that he as part of the Trinity had determined from the Father should be done. What he did humanly is distinguishable, but not separate, from what he did divinely."
In addition to the obvious "hurt in some other way" aspect of the subject at hand, what struck me was the assumption that God would have lower standards for choosing leaders than we ourselves would. God doesn't need guidelines? :blink: Didn't he reveal some guidelines in da bible?
In addition to the obvious "hurt in some other way" aspect of the subject at hand, what struck me was the assumption that God would have lower standards for choosing leaders than we ourselves would. God doesn't need guidelines? :blink: Didn't he reveal some guidelines in da bible?
Good point, Oak
It's an assumption.
And you know what they say happens when you azz-u-me anything.
the only reason I can see why one would justify those kind of actions.. is the person making that statement simply CANNOT distinguish between a lawless, predatory, scumbucket with a religious fever, and a "manogawd"..
just.. can't tell the difference between the two..
that's the mind you are arguing with here..
Just can't see it. Even with documentable, cold, hard facts..
the only "lucky" thing about it all.. his methods are DATED.. stuck in 1973. I think "sheep" have evolved.. they are a lot smarter than that today..
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George Aar
None other than I think it's indicative of a mind that isn't working very well. Which is why I don't spend a lot of time conversing with the owner of said mind.
As momma always told me "You can't argue with a crazy person"...
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rascal
Well ...aside from being sickened and offended at drugging, seduction, rape, child abuse, families destroyed and death of people at the hands of this man and the men he trained...being laid at the feet of God...that these people had it coming as a matter of course...whew
I guess that I am amazed at the evil that can be excused, condoned and ignored in this man in order for ones theology to have any credibility.
All in all, the callousness required to believe this makes me very very sad.
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WordWolf
I'm not Shaz, but I found the post easily enough.
pg-12, post 224, "ONLY Rule..." thread.
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potato
thanks you guys. I would have done it myself if I hadn't had to fly out the door, and I would have hated to see that post disappear before it could be discussed.
so gawd (watch out, wayspeak in use) in his foreknowledge knew that women would be raped and drugged and the time and money of good-hearted people would used to buy toys for the man of gawd, so it MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN VPW since it was going to happen anyway, and gawd would heal them if they wanted it and were meek enough so it's ok, and we all gotta remember that AT LEAST WE GOT "THE WORD" because obviously, only vpw had the right heart to receive what gawd had to tell him.
excuse me while I puke.
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geisha779
I may join you potato. . . heartbreaking. But, you know what gets me? In this little scenario. . . the only way to get healing is to learn about God. . . from the only source on earth since the 1st century. . . . PFAL. . . . taught by the unrepentant man who did the hurting. Got me?. . . Sounds really reasonable. . . No?
Rascal nailed it. . . the lengths some have gone to simply to justify this man and his theology. Who was he anyway? Just some old guy from Ohio. . . . he wasn't my father or my uncle or guardian of the truth. . . No. . . . he wasn't really anything to me. Why did I EVER think he was?
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Mark Clarke
"Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge." --Proverbs 14:7
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What The Hey
Oh for Ch**** sake! Get a clue man!!
All the real devils are out trying to prove [attempting to prove once again - but horribly failing] they are "holier-than-you-know-who".
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waysider
I don't see anybody trying to prove they are "holier-than-you-know".
What I see are some people who are offended by this statement:
"You see we did not select VPW to "put it all together" and distribute it around the world. God selected Dr to get the job done and it got done. Anyone hurt in the process would have probably gotten hurt some other way, and either way God is there to help them get healed if they want it."
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cheranne
I don't believe God chose vpw for anything!
I believe vpw was a wanna be lip smacking cracker using the bible as a cover for his greed!
But I will tell you this...alot of well intended people who put ALL their cards on the table and their life on
the line (for this so called "ministry" of cheap perfumed counterfiet research from the man with the snowglobe in his
freakn head!
Got hurt and hurt bad.
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shiftthis
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waysider
Hi, shiftthis
Thanks for your response.
I hope you don't mind;I've taken the liberty of reformatting your response for easier readability.
If you would prefer I not do that in the future, just say the word.
***************************
got in the way in 1980
had some good leaders had some mean leaders,
when the twig i was in split off from twi in 1987 i stayed with it ( the independent fellowship)
when the independent fellowship ceased to exhist after several years i found a twi fellowship to attend, then i moved a few years later and attended a twi fellowship with a major "A" of a coordinator ,
i spoke up about him and he was fired and we got a nice new coordinator,
a year or so later martindale wanted a superclean household and for some unknown reason i was booted out,
a few years later i met up with someone in twi i had known and was told about lcm being fired and decided to start going to twi again,
boy was i surprised to find this was not my grandpas ministry (I am my own grandpa,i got proof i was born in mississippi !!!)
that was 2001 and as far as i know to this day peole who would hurt or be major "A" 's are not tolerated,
yeah i got hurt a few times and so did others at the mouths of those that never should have ben put up with ,but it took lowely believers like me not being afraid to speak up
i'v ben on both sides the independents and twi and have experenced hurt from both,
if the way ceased to exhist i'd find others who would rightly divide the word and go to there fellowship,
GOD looks on the heart and not at what church you go to ,
now i must go and see if i can find some old friends here , i already got united with a few a while back
i got friends in all kinds of groups ,
GOD bless you,
btw GOD also rides in a FORD !!!!
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potato
probably depends on where you are, but plenty of A's are still tolerated and in fact are in key leadership positions. I just left in 2006, so I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. it's still the same "ministry" as it was when lcm took it over, it's just that now the upper echelon doesn't care as much about what people do because they have all the abs they need to have a comfy retirement. twi is a big joke, especially from the pov of "research ministry".
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Raf
I don't see how I can contribute to this thread without violating at least 70 rules that will get me thrown out of Hogwarts for sure.
Hurt some other way.
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geisha779
Geisha is of the female persuasion. . . did you just call me clueless, a devil, take the Lords name in vain, call me self-righteous and a failure all in the same breath?
You must be tired now.
LOL
Classic!
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Twinky
Yes, people might well have got hurt some other way.
But they didn't have to get hurt by someone masquerading as a Teacher, a minister, a man of God, somebody who would help them and not hurt them, someone from whom they could have reasonable expectations of behavior.
Everyone knows that this world has many people who are out to trick them, to dupe them, to harm them in some way or other. There are also many great people (and those people may or may not be Christians) who are open, generous, and would never hurt anyone. In worldly terms, we learn to be wary of others and to consider their motives. Even so, we may get fooled often enough. And hurt, in the process.
From reading posts here at the Cafe, it seems there were quite a number of young and vulnerable people, especially women, who thought they had found safety and help - and perhaps they did, initially, at the lower levels of TWI.
In the Christian area, we tend to be more trusting. We look to ministers to - well, minister, serve, us - not minister to themselves. We do not expect to get hurt in the Christian area. And if we are, we expect quick repentance and making up.
Yes, people might well have got hurt.
But probably not by church leaders, not so many people, not over such a long period. Nor would they expect to be abused and hurt by those close to the said offending minister(s) who had trained other minister(s) to hurt and abuse the congregation.
Especially the vulnerable congregants who had specifically sought out help. Or had been forced by various means to expose their vulnerabilities.
It's a mean thought by someone who hasn't learned compassion.
And that's all I'm saying, before I get too riled up.
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OperaBuff
There's lots of certifiably crazy people in the world. Most of them are not wearing name tags.
Hurt some other way.
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Mark Clarke
As usual, Jesus said it best:
"It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" --Luke 17:1
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potato
thing is, the "word" was supposed to make us stronger. the "ministry" was supposed to be a safe haven.
I'd already been hurt. spent time in therapy, was making good, positive changes in my life. the "promises" of god attracted me because I wanted to be stronger, serve god, and be around people who lived a loving lifestyle. twi was just not the place to find that, and the damage done by leadership put me in a place worse than I'd come from.
so yeah, life hurts sometimes, but I find that in post-twi, now that I'm in a place where I've learned to think for myself, I handle the hurt better and I'm not in constant fear of someone melting my face over trivialities. I'm better equipped to handle the tough things in life now that I've shed the false trappings of pretended strength we were taught in twi.
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Twinky
Potato - "Face metling over trivialities."
Exactly. All in the guise of telling us to be "meek" to God. Actually, that abuses God even more than it abuses us.
We simply wouldn't have put up with this garbage elsewhere. If any church minister behaved in this manner now, would we put up with it?
If TWI know-it-alls could have distanced themselves from their own egos, they would have seen that the specks of dust in our lives were just that, specks of dust; and not seen so very close up through their own egos so that dust was magnified into planks.
Even then, the hurts wouldn't be there still so painfully if there were open and honest exposure, apology and rectification.
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waysider
Here's a wacky thought that passed through my brain cell.
If, on one hand, one applies the Calvinist "predestination concept" to rationalize that people would have ultimately been "hurt some other way", how, on the other hand, can they then dismiss said concept as it relates to the possibility of hearing the information from another source?
*************************************
"In common English parlance, the doctrine of predestination often has particular reference to the doctrines of Calvinism. The version of predestination espoused by John Calvin, after whom Calvinism is named, is sometimes referred to as "double predestination" because in it God predestines some people for salvation (i.e. Unconditional election) and some for condemnation (i.e. Reprobation). Calvin himself defines predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. Not all are created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death."[4].
On the spectrum of beliefs concerning predestination, Calvinism is the strongest form among Christians. It teaches that God's predestining decision is based on the knowledge of His own will rather than foreknowledge, concerning every particular person and event; and, God continually acts with entire freedom, in order to bring about his will in completeness, but in such a way that the freedom of the creature is not violated, "but rather, established"[5]
Calvinists who hold the infralapsarian view of predestination usually prefer that term to "sublapsarianism," perhaps with the intent of blocking the inference that they believe predestination is on the basis of foreknowledge (sublapsarian meaning, assuming the fall into sin).[6] The different terminology has the benefit of distinguishing the Calvinist double predestination version of infralapsarianism, from Lutheranism's view that predestination is a mystery, which forbids the unprofitable intrusion of prying minds.
Calvinists seek never to divide predestination in a mathematical way. Their doctrine is uninterested, in the abstract, in questions of "how much" either God or man is responsible for a particular destiny. Questions of "how much" will become hopelessly entangled in paradox, Calvinists teach, regardless of the view of predestination adopted. Instead, Calvinism divides the issues of predestination according to two kinds of being, knowledge, and will, distinguishing that which is divine from that which is human. Therefore, it is not so much an issue of quantity, but of distinct roles or modes of being. God is not a creature nor the creature God in knowledge, will, freedom, ability, responsibility, or anything else. Calvinists will often attribute salvation entirely to God; and yet they will also assert that it is man's responsibility to pursue obedience. As the archetypal illustration of this idea, they believe Jesus in his words and work humanly fulfilled all that he as part of the Trinity had determined from the Father should be done. What he did humanly is distinguishable, but not separate, from what he did divinely."
Here's a link to Predestination
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Oakspear
In addition to the obvious "hurt in some other way" aspect of the subject at hand, what struck me was the assumption that God would have lower standards for choosing leaders than we ourselves would. God doesn't need guidelines? :blink: Didn't he reveal some guidelines in da bible?
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leafytwiglet
Jesus told the apostles to care and comfort and protect the believers as if the apostles were shepherds and the believers were little lambs.
I don't see any where in that for trashing the believers. (God's Children)
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waysider
Good point, Oak
It's an assumption.
And you know what they say happens when you azz-u-me anything.
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Ham
the only reason I can see why one would justify those kind of actions.. is the person making that statement simply CANNOT distinguish between a lawless, predatory, scumbucket with a religious fever, and a "manogawd"..
just.. can't tell the difference between the two..
that's the mind you are arguing with here..
Just can't see it. Even with documentable, cold, hard facts..
the only "lucky" thing about it all.. his methods are DATED.. stuck in 1973. I think "sheep" have evolved.. they are a lot smarter than that today..
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