We had a Momentus type experience in Fellow Laborers (mid 1970s). If it had a name, I don't remember it. People were brought in from outside the program and conducted the weekend "seminar" at the limb BRC. Lots of "scream in your face", "make you or break you" type activities. It was a bad scene. Real bad. If it had any lasting effects on people, they weren't good effects. We didn't pay extra for it, nor was it optional. It was part of our "program". I can't imagine anyone actually paying hard earned cash to have someone trash them in front of a room full of people and tell them how insignificant they supposedly are.
Greg gave me a personal prophecy, and it shook me to my bones. It was that right on. No spiders or anything like that.
I've got to admit I've hung out with CES (I guess they are STFI now), but them there days are gone.
The best thing you can do when being confronted with a *splinter*, is walk the other way. :)
I don't know what that means, to be given a personal prophecy. I'm assuming it means this Greg guy came up to you and said something to you that he claimed was a message from God for you. Is that the deal?
I'm reminded of a story I once heard from a guy who worked in the US embassy in Moscow, back in the days of the former Soviet Union. He would sometimes attend cocktail parties and receptions that they used to hold with the Soviet government types. This guy said that when he got stuck talking to some hard-core communist who wouldn't shut up, his favorite game was to quote Marx to the commie. Except he wasn't really quoting Marx, he would just make something up!
The Soviet would say something and then this guy would rebut with, "Well, you know, it was Lenin himself who once said..." or "Of course, your own Karl Marx once wrote..." and then he would just reach down and pull something right out of his butt and credit Lenin or Marx for having said it! It always worked like a charm, the guy said, because even the most hard-core communist didn't actually know everything that Lenin or Marx had ever said. The commie would just agree with whatever it was this guy had made up, not wanting to appear ignorant.
And there are people who can, by trickery and highly developed observational skills, provide information that would seem to be impossible for them to know. The popular television show "The Mentalist" features such a person as the lead character.
THE MENTALIST stars Golden Globe Award nominee Simon Baker as Patrick Jane, an independent consultant with the California Bureau of Investigation (CBI), who has a remarkable track record for solving serious crimes by using his razor sharp skills of observation. Within the Bureau, Jane is notorious for his blatant lack of protocol and his semi-celebrity past as a psychic medium, whose paranormal abilities he now admits he feigned. Jane's role in cracking a series of tough high-profile cases is greatly valued by his fellow agents. However, no-nonsense Senior Agent Teresa Lisbon openly resists having Jane in her unit and alternates between reluctantly acknowledging Jane's usefulness and blasting him for his theatrics, narcissism and dangerous lack of boundaries. Lisbon's team includes agents Kimball Cho, Wayne Rigsby and rookie member Grace Van Pelt, who all think Jane's a loose cannon but admire his charm and knack for clearing cases.
Some 20 years have passed since twi splintered into dozens (or hundreds?) of factions and "havens".....and yet, further factions and splintering was inevitable. In my little corner of the world, three big names were front runners........Cgeer, JAL, Ssann.......to rival twi's fortified dominance. I'm quite sure this was a very narrow perception.......but, to me, cgeer was purportedly speaking and writing post-humously on vpw's behalf, JAL (and others) wrote a 37-page report to address and challenge twi's failures and S@nn had latched onto Rev. BG Leonard (and his work) wanting to bring things back to the scriptures and holy spirit work.
The whole scene was like........the circus had come to town. Each vendor was barking for my attention, my involvement, my money. When I met with Ric@rdo face-to-face and asked about Cgeer's comment in POP that, supposedly, the trustees "were murderers".......Ric@rdo explained it as an exaggerated false statement (a LIE). For me, the geerite group had NO appeal........NONE. No haven there.
JAL's assertions were well organized and presented to many..........but I simply wasn't ready to jump. Yes, LCM and the trustees had lots of issues, but..........???? Fast forward to today........and LOOK at the path JAL ( & graes3e, sch...) has taken his "followers." What a haven????......momentus! high prophetess! nose-spider prophecies!
In talking with many ex-twiers, just seems like ALOT of us took 8-10 YEARS to get on our feet again.......self-dependency, socially, financially, spiritually, etc. And, even though I stayed in twi until 1998...........the "havens" were in pockets around the country that still had good, humble leadership. Perhaps, that could be said about CES and Geer's stuff too..........but, imo, the Momentus fiasco, the evil prophecies, the post-humous drivel of a dead man, franchise exploitation, etc. etc..... I just tend to think that "my little haven" wasn't all that bad compared to others.
In talking with many ex-twiers, just seems like ALOT of us took 8-10 YEARS to get on our feet again.......self-dependency, socially, financially, spiritually, etc. And, even though I stayed in twi until 1998...........the "havens" were in pockets around the country that still had good, humble leadership. Perhaps, that could be said about CES and Geer's stuff too..........but, imo, the Momentus fiasco, the evil prophecies, the post-humous drivel of a dead man, franchise exploitation, etc. etc..... I just tend to think that "my little haven" wasn't all that bad compared to others.
That was my path too, sky. Then again I left in 1976, long before the splinters started flying. The first several years after leaving were my drug years, which I ended very abruptly one snowy Sunday morning in 1980 in Cleveland, OH. It took me 5 or 6 years to rebuild the self-confidence, composure, and drive needed to succeed in the real world after leaving the weird cocoon that was The Way. Sometimes I miss not being part of a ministry today, but there are lots of us out here who don't belong to any tax dodge corporation ministry, yet we continue to do the Lord's work in our daily lives. Lots of us. I don't need no stinkin' splinter group. I'll just keep relying on my Ph.D from the College of Hard Knocks to get me through.
Regarding "CES, look at it's dogmatic short history..........within a few short years the CES leadership was implementing Momentus, a highly contraversial method of "intervention" or whatever. It had disastorous and lasting effects on many. Later, this CES hierarchy moved towards a Prophet Council, a High Prophetess, personal prophecy, nose-spiders, slanderous "prophecies," marriage mettling, etc. etc"
It seems that Momentus was about getting people to publicly discuss all their personal issues/angers/problems. And, often those things were brought up and used against an individual. "Personal prophecy" was somewhat used by TWI when they would perform their children dedication ceremonies...a word of prophecy for that child was spoken. The Personal Prophecy used by CES was a whole new level of darkness and damage.
I was surprised at their level of non-wisdom in trying to sell this junk. If they were so "spiritually discerning" they would have known better.
I think a good portion of the "discernment" from twi leaders was discernment from the dark side-broadcast and ministered to their audiences. Many extwi leaders were one trick ponies and never broke the chain from their former teachers.
I know of no offshoot that has stated that churches are worthless. Nor have they controlled anyone from attending a church, had you read my previous post you would note that I attended a new one last week.
The offshoot that I was involved with did not say (outright) that churches were worthless. However, the offshoot I was involved in truly believed that what was taught in a church (any church) paled in comparison to what it brought to the table. My offshoot borrowed from churches heavily in terms of offerings like worship style and then distilled it for the offshoot's use. My former offshoot did not keep anyone from attending a church, but doing so marked you as an outsider. In its eyes, it was better to be an atheist than someone who had "defected" to a church.
Just in case you didn't notice, you were critical of the church you visited and what you considered to be its watered-down message and method of delivery. What former Way people who remain firmly entrenched in the concept do not get is that most "corporate" services are what is referred to as "seeker oriented." Seeker services are designed to meet people where they are. There's no class that needs to be filled and taken in order to understand what is being taught. If one wants deeper knowledge, that's offered in small-group bible studies. A person attending a twig fellowship (at least when I was involved) had to take the class just to understand the jargon.
I was surprised at their level of non-wisdom in trying to sell this junk. If they were so "spiritually discerning" they would have known better.
You accurately reveal the level of disconnect. I point-blank told JAL that all he was doing was providing a revenue stream for Dan T. and that it would cost him (JAL) his reputation. He didn't get that revenue stream part, so I'm assuming that he thought Momentus would do in one weekend what took TWI years to accomplish in its way corp program. He literally spent hours on the phone every day talking people into going through the Momentus experience. Why do that if you don't think you might personally benefit? I could never get him to say exactly why he felt this was something everyone he had ever had on his mailing list needed to experience (except his own parents), but the fact that it was something he could not recommend to his parents told me all I needed to know.
Here's a stow-ry (a true one --- by the way!) about myself, and these *havens*.
So --- the year was (somewhere) in the mid 1990's. I was well out of twi by that time, and concentrating on playing music. Depending on the tune being played (I worked in a square dance band), I was responsible for either fiddle/ mandolin/ or rhythm guitar. We had a job playing at some dance down near the twin cities of Mnpls/ St. Paul. Believe it or not --- out of the clear blue sky I got a phone call from JAL letting me know that he was going to be at a *fellowship* about 15 miles where my band was going to be picking for a buncha folks kicking up their heels that night. It might've been snow on the gas pumps for all I knew. It was just too coincidental.
So I said --- "Sure --- I'll come to the meeting. I'll listen to what you have to say". This was back in the days when he traveled around the countryside letting everyone know about what twi was really like. He held his meeting at the house of Victor Barnard, and had a visiting pastor by the name of Greg Pharis (from a Georgia southern Baptist persuasion) teaching as well. Well -- Victor had his own opinions about the bible, and they didn't mesh with JAL's. Greg was a firm believer in Jesus Is God, and he didn't mesh with JAL either. However --- Greg was *teaching* JAL about personal prophecy, Victor had a house with a buncha folks familiar with twi, and JAL (imo) used those entities to get new recruits.
I was offered (strongly suggested) that I do the Momentus trip by JAL, but I looked him in the eye and said "Not for me!"
Greg gave me a personal prophecy, and it shook me to my bones. It was that right on. No spiders or anything like that.
I've got to admit I've hung out with CES (I guess they are STFI now), but them there days are gone.
The best thing you can do when being confronted with a *splinter*, is walk the other way. :)
I am sooo very glad for you Dave that you walked that day.
Those things started bad and ended up worse As part of coming out of Momentus I confronted V.B. about bringing us into a movement that freely mixed the Bible and New Age mind games. And I told him that momentus style fellowship led to many things that were bad through the misconception that everything that came out of a person's mouth was of God, no matter how nasty.
Many of those prophecies of Pharis did not end up coming true, even though they were very substantial. When I shared mine with my Grandfather along with my then wife, all he said was, "Jeff, you have to be careful with prophecies, they don't all come from God." or something like that. And many did not come true.
Four years ago, V.B. was letting folks call him "The Word in th Flesh."
SANTA ROSA CHRISTIAN CHURCH is one such haven if you can call it that. This is where momentus originated and for the record, it is still alive at this cult place. The people at this church have all been through this training and they are manipulative and absolutely just horrible. Dan Tocchini went to speak there one Sunday. This so called church is one big manipulative scam. They are constantly trying to scam people into taking this breakthrough training and when you refuse they claim its because you dont want to be "known" The pastor constantly refers to "Transformation" I am a long time christian and instantly knew this was not of God and left that church. They mess with interpersonal relationships and work and anything to do with your person. It iwas the absolute worst experience. Be warned they are alive and well
"And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass." --Genesis 41:32
I am sooo very glad for you Dave that you walked that day.
Those things started bad and ended up worse As part of coming out of Momentus I confronted V.B. about bringing us into a movement that freely mixed the Bible and New Age mind games. And I told him that momentus style fellowship led to many things that were bad through the misconception that everything that came out of a person's mouth was of God, no matter how nasty.
Many of those prophecies of Pharis did not end up coming true, even though they were very substantial. When I shared mine with my Grandfather along with my then wife, all he said was, "Jeff, you have to be careful with prophecies, they don't all come from God." or something like that. And many did not come true.
Four years ago, V.B. was letting folks call him "The Word in th Flesh."
It went from bad to incredibly worse.
Jeff --- yup I hear that. I was there that day as a spectator only. Like I said --- it was kinda ironic that I got that call from JAL right before I was going to be in the same area (specifically geographic) where we were going to be playing a square dance the same day. I was being facetious about the *snow on the gas pumps thing*, but I have to admit my curiousity was piqued.
Greg taught, Victor taught, and JAL taught during the course of that evening. If I recollect correct (and I do), Greg taught on how it's *available* for multitudes to be speaking in tongues all at once in a meeting (and genuinely praising God), and Vic taught on how the church was going to be the bride of Christ (I remember him saying he was going to stand FIRM on that teaching, and NOT back down on it), and JAL ran the Athletes of the Spirit video, and made comments about what was * right and wrong*.
Like I done did say --- I wuz jest a spec-tater there. :P
Like some old guy in history once said: Veni, Vidi, Vici. :)
Jeff --- yup I hear that. I was there that day as a spectator only. Like I said --- it was kinda ironic that I got that call from JAL right before I was going to be in the same area (specifically geographic) where we were going to be playing a square dance the same day. I was being facetious about the *snow on the gas pumps thing*, but I have to admit my curiousity was piqued.
Greg taught, Victor taught, and JAL taught during the course of that evening. If I recollect correct (and I do), Greg taught on how it's *available* for multitudes to be speaking in tongues all at once in a meeting (and genuinely praising God), and Vic taught on how the church was going to be the bride of Christ (I remember him saying he was going to stand FIRM on that teaching, and NOT back down on it), and JAL ran the Athletes of the Spirit video, and made comments about what was * right and wrong*.
Like I done did say --- I wuz jest a spec-tater there. :P
Like some old guy in history once said: Veni, Vidi, Vici. :)
Wasn't that location Rush City? I might have been there, but they ran more than one of those meetings in those days.
Barnard was just as dishonest and dishonrable about the sources for the things that he learned from "God" as Wierwille was FYI.
Pharis was going to some length to explain why it was o.k. to do something that Paul said not to do!? It figures, but I don't remember that.
It seems to me, looking back on it, that Jalvis was not really in a good place to be critiquing TWI.
I'm still very glad for you that you walked away that day.
I thought that that latin meant,"I came, I saw, I conquered." Or am I missing something there Dave? :)
Among the last things that I heard from River Road Fellowship under Barnard's lead was:
1. The Lord was going to come back in 2005.
2. Barnard admitted several times in front of the whole church that, "If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison." Of course in classic "cult of personality" style most just took this to mean that Barnard was brave and not to mean that he was twisted and paranoid.
3. It was o.k. for several of the young and unattached girls to vow vows of celibate bridehood to Barnard. One of them came to Twig and said verbatim, "I'm married to the Christ in Victor." IMO he was bitter at his real wife. For most of the women including my ex-wife it was normal to express envy (in a kind manner I suppose) towards Victor's ten maidens.
and
4. He was having his most trusted followers working on a system of protecting him against the inevitable physical threats to his life that he faced constantly. When they kicked me out I was plenty angry too, but I never threatened him beyond saying that I would kick his azz (figuratively speaking) and saying that I would literally mock him, and I said it to his face.
(edited for grammar)
(added in editing)
Yeah, some "haven" for ex-twiers. If they want to go from the frying pan to the fire I suppose.
The off shoots are still around. Dan Tocchini's home church, Santa Rosa Christian church is one such. They practice manipulation, mind games like I have never seen in my lifetime and meddle in interpersonal relationships. They hold momentus introductory meetings at the church property and try to co-oerce members into paying the 500.00 and into taking the training without offering information. When you refuse the trainings, they pretty much let everyone know that this person didn't want to be "known". Most of the members of this church suffer from serious depression episodes. The Pastor constantly refers to "Transformation" in his teachings. It is unlike anything I have ever seen.
But that al being said, there are still some normal biblically based churches, we just have to look "carefully"
The off shoots are still around. Dan Tocchini's home church, Santa Rosa Christian church is one such. They practice manipulation, mind games like I have never seen in my lifetime and meddle in interpersonal relationships. They hold momentus introductory meetings at the church property and try to co-oerce members into paying the 500.00 and into taking the training without offering information. When you refuse the trainings, they pretty much let everyone know that this person didn't want to be "known". Most of the members of this church suffer from serious depression episodes. The Pastor constantly refers to "Transformation" in his teachings. It is unlike anything I have ever seen.
But that al being said, there are still some normal biblically based churches, we just have to look "carefully"
This following statement, on the CES/STF sub-forum, intrigues me:
Unlike churches.....that have local involvement, support groups, youth ministers, childrens' fellowship, etc. etc.......what is the "haven" that splinter groups offer? Are those "havens" of doctrine only?......i.e. "we teach same doctrine, same believer's meetings, same JCNG stuff, greek words, etc"??
From 1986-1989, how many went to these "haven" splinter groups??? THOUSANDS..!!!
By 2004, CES/STF is exposed as a "nose-spider, high prophetess, lawsuit filed" splinter group that went thru the 1990's embrasing Momentus and other crazy side-treks. Is that a "haven?"
Recently, reports are reaching GS that the Geerite group is diminishing as these "franchise/splinter leaders" do NOT want to pay the fees on geer's class contracts. Is this a "haven" that vanished.
In the end...........it seems like some people stayed in twi, some people left, some people jumped into a splinter group, some people never joined, some finally left twi, some saw the scam in CES and Cgeer.........and the "haven" is TRUST THE LORD AND BEWARE OF SCAMS.
<_<
For me, the trinity was a real stumbling block to being able to attend and worship at an orthodox church. The other thing was that basic lack of understanding about dialing it down for the seekers in the midst. There was a certain amount of elitism and thinking (on my part) that no one worked the word like TWI.
Once I didn't feel the need to correct everyone's errors in doctrine, I was able to sit in a service and not pick the message apart. I know what I believe and why and that's all that matters to me.
STF/CES does not have a mechanism in place to accept anything outside its own comfort zone until it has been distilled and reworked by one of them - with the exception of Momentus and I think that's only because Tocchini wouldn't allow it. They did it with personal prophecy. They do it with most other ideas as well. For example, DG has read at least one book on small groups, but instead of distributing that book or books and using them directly as a basis for running home fellowships, he borrowed the ideas and put together the same concept sprinkled with CESisms.
There is not ONE radical never-before-contemplated-idea in any of its written materials. But churning out materials creates a revenue stream. One which doesn't even begin to match what TWI was bringing in, but it does pay the bills and keep a few people on staff. I would be more than willing to bet that privately they have kicked themselves for not marketing their class (and they do have one) like PFAL, denouncing the tithe, and somewhat playing by the rules. Money is a real issue and I don't think anyone really thought that one through to the extent that the tithe and PFAL paid the bills. Just my opinion.
STF does offer alot of material for free tho the truth or tradition website is loaded with stuff and also their monthly podcast is free.
I see alot of work in them .
they do want "prtners" people who will give money for their work, I do not think this wrong or "unbibical " many want to give to a place that feeds their soul .
Money is an issue everywhere sometimes I do think John S. should just for once get a real job God knows he has forced everyone eles to do that, but Dan G. has and Jeff etc.. worked and to be honest John S. may not be able to do anything but research and on his own terms.
hey it is his own "business", it isnt all bad what they produce does help some people even if it is "one of their own" those stuck thinking that is the only way to have the truth in life.
If some break that thought....... what eles is there? for them maybe nothing doesnt work well, and to build a mind anew with churches etc... is not going to work for all.
I think they have problems but I also think they fill a real need for some.
...and MAYBE they give the appearance of helping and being alright so that people never do break out and get the help they actually need. They remain forever locked into a poor substitute for the Christian life.
It`s like never having to grow up, or seek help. You have all of the answers and don`t need any balance outside of their group.
My husband gets their garbage...I think in some cases it provides a valid sounding excuse to remain a horses arse...arrogant in the participants knowledge and the spirituality that it supposedly buys them.
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waysider
We had a Momentus type experience in Fellow Laborers (mid 1970s). If it had a name, I don't remember it. People were brought in from outside the program and conducted the weekend "seminar" at the limb BRC. Lots of "scream in your face", "make you or break you" type activities. It was a bad scene. Real bad. If it had any lasting effects on people, they weren't good effects. We didn't pay extra for it, nor was it optional. It was part of our "program". I can't imagine anyone actually paying hard earned cash to have someone trash them in front of a room full of people and tell them how insignificant they supposedly are.
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Oakspear
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OperaBuff
I don't know what that means, to be given a personal prophecy. I'm assuming it means this Greg guy came up to you and said something to you that he claimed was a message from God for you. Is that the deal?
I'm reminded of a story I once heard from a guy who worked in the US embassy in Moscow, back in the days of the former Soviet Union. He would sometimes attend cocktail parties and receptions that they used to hold with the Soviet government types. This guy said that when he got stuck talking to some hard-core communist who wouldn't shut up, his favorite game was to quote Marx to the commie. Except he wasn't really quoting Marx, he would just make something up!
The Soviet would say something and then this guy would rebut with, "Well, you know, it was Lenin himself who once said..." or "Of course, your own Karl Marx once wrote..." and then he would just reach down and pull something right out of his butt and credit Lenin or Marx for having said it! It always worked like a charm, the guy said, because even the most hard-core communist didn't actually know everything that Lenin or Marx had ever said. The commie would just agree with whatever it was this guy had made up, not wanting to appear ignorant.
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waysider
And there are people who can, by trickery and highly developed observational skills, provide information that would seem to be impossible for them to know. The popular television show "The Mentalist" features such a person as the lead character.
THE MENTALIST stars Golden Globe Award nominee Simon Baker as Patrick Jane, an independent consultant with the California Bureau of Investigation (CBI), who has a remarkable track record for solving serious crimes by using his razor sharp skills of observation. Within the Bureau, Jane is notorious for his blatant lack of protocol and his semi-celebrity past as a psychic medium, whose paranormal abilities he now admits he feigned. Jane's role in cracking a series of tough high-profile cases is greatly valued by his fellow agents. However, no-nonsense Senior Agent Teresa Lisbon openly resists having Jane in her unit and alternates between reluctantly acknowledging Jane's usefulness and blasting him for his theatrics, narcissism and dangerous lack of boundaries. Lisbon's team includes agents Kimball Cho, Wayne Rigsby and rookie member Grace Van Pelt, who all think Jane's a loose cannon but admire his charm and knack for clearing cases.
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/the_mentalist/about/
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skyrider
Some 20 years have passed since twi splintered into dozens (or hundreds?) of factions and "havens".....and yet, further factions and splintering was inevitable. In my little corner of the world, three big names were front runners........Cgeer, JAL, Ssann.......to rival twi's fortified dominance. I'm quite sure this was a very narrow perception.......but, to me, cgeer was purportedly speaking and writing post-humously on vpw's behalf, JAL (and others) wrote a 37-page report to address and challenge twi's failures and S@nn had latched onto Rev. BG Leonard (and his work) wanting to bring things back to the scriptures and holy spirit work.
The whole scene was like........the circus had come to town. Each vendor was barking for my attention, my involvement, my money. When I met with Ric@rdo face-to-face and asked about Cgeer's comment in POP that, supposedly, the trustees "were murderers".......Ric@rdo explained it as an exaggerated false statement (a LIE). For me, the geerite group had NO appeal........NONE. No haven there.
JAL's assertions were well organized and presented to many..........but I simply wasn't ready to jump. Yes, LCM and the trustees had lots of issues, but..........???? Fast forward to today........and LOOK at the path JAL ( & graes3e, sch...) has taken his "followers." What a haven????......momentus! high prophetess! nose-spider prophecies!
In talking with many ex-twiers, just seems like ALOT of us took 8-10 YEARS to get on our feet again.......self-dependency, socially, financially, spiritually, etc. And, even though I stayed in twi until 1998...........the "havens" were in pockets around the country that still had good, humble leadership. Perhaps, that could be said about CES and Geer's stuff too..........but, imo, the Momentus fiasco, the evil prophecies, the post-humous drivel of a dead man, franchise exploitation, etc. etc..... I just tend to think that "my little haven" wasn't all that bad compared to others.
JUST SAY NO.............to twi splinter groups!
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OperaBuff
That was my path too, sky. Then again I left in 1976, long before the splinters started flying. The first several years after leaving were my drug years, which I ended very abruptly one snowy Sunday morning in 1980 in Cleveland, OH. It took me 5 or 6 years to rebuild the self-confidence, composure, and drive needed to succeed in the real world after leaving the weird cocoon that was The Way. Sometimes I miss not being part of a ministry today, but there are lots of us out here who don't belong to any tax dodge corporation ministry, yet we continue to do the Lord's work in our daily lives. Lots of us. I don't need no stinkin' splinter group. I'll just keep relying on my Ph.D from the College of Hard Knocks to get me through.
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waysider
Well said Buff, well said.
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Rejoice
Regarding "CES, look at it's dogmatic short history..........within a few short years the CES leadership was implementing Momentus, a highly contraversial method of "intervention" or whatever. It had disastorous and lasting effects on many. Later, this CES hierarchy moved towards a Prophet Council, a High Prophetess, personal prophecy, nose-spiders, slanderous "prophecies," marriage mettling, etc. etc"
It seems that Momentus was about getting people to publicly discuss all their personal issues/angers/problems. And, often those things were brought up and used against an individual. "Personal prophecy" was somewhat used by TWI when they would perform their children dedication ceremonies...a word of prophecy for that child was spoken. The Personal Prophecy used by CES was a whole new level of darkness and damage.
I was surprised at their level of non-wisdom in trying to sell this junk. If they were so "spiritually discerning" they would have known better.
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oldiesman
If anyone is interested, you may download a free monthly podcast from STFI HERE.
I have been downloading them for months and they are pretty good.
Fear not. Nothing about spiders and boogie men.
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now I see
I think a good portion of the "discernment" from twi leaders was discernment from the dark side-broadcast and ministered to their audiences. Many extwi leaders were one trick ponies and never broke the chain from their former teachers.
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Tzaia
The offshoot that I was involved with did not say (outright) that churches were worthless. However, the offshoot I was involved in truly believed that what was taught in a church (any church) paled in comparison to what it brought to the table. My offshoot borrowed from churches heavily in terms of offerings like worship style and then distilled it for the offshoot's use. My former offshoot did not keep anyone from attending a church, but doing so marked you as an outsider. In its eyes, it was better to be an atheist than someone who had "defected" to a church.
Just in case you didn't notice, you were critical of the church you visited and what you considered to be its watered-down message and method of delivery. What former Way people who remain firmly entrenched in the concept do not get is that most "corporate" services are what is referred to as "seeker oriented." Seeker services are designed to meet people where they are. There's no class that needs to be filled and taken in order to understand what is being taught. If one wants deeper knowledge, that's offered in small-group bible studies. A person attending a twig fellowship (at least when I was involved) had to take the class just to understand the jargon.
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Tzaia
You accurately reveal the level of disconnect. I point-blank told JAL that all he was doing was providing a revenue stream for Dan T. and that it would cost him (JAL) his reputation. He didn't get that revenue stream part, so I'm assuming that he thought Momentus would do in one weekend what took TWI years to accomplish in its way corp program. He literally spent hours on the phone every day talking people into going through the Momentus experience. Why do that if you don't think you might personally benefit? I could never get him to say exactly why he felt this was something everyone he had ever had on his mailing list needed to experience (except his own parents), but the fact that it was something he could not recommend to his parents told me all I needed to know.
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Rejoice
Oh my gosh!! That speaks volumes about safety and efficacy!
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JeffSjo
I am sooo very glad for you Dave that you walked that day.
Those things started bad and ended up worse As part of coming out of Momentus I confronted V.B. about bringing us into a movement that freely mixed the Bible and New Age mind games. And I told him that momentus style fellowship led to many things that were bad through the misconception that everything that came out of a person's mouth was of God, no matter how nasty.
Many of those prophecies of Pharis did not end up coming true, even though they were very substantial. When I shared mine with my Grandfather along with my then wife, all he said was, "Jeff, you have to be careful with prophecies, they don't all come from God." or something like that. And many did not come true.
Four years ago, V.B. was letting folks call him "The Word in th Flesh."
It went from bad to incredibly worse.
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AnonymousJ
SANTA ROSA CHRISTIAN CHURCH is one such haven if you can call it that. This is where momentus originated and for the record, it is still alive at this cult place. The people at this church have all been through this training and they are manipulative and absolutely just horrible. Dan Tocchini went to speak there one Sunday. This so called church is one big manipulative scam. They are constantly trying to scam people into taking this breakthrough training and when you refuse they claim its because you dont want to be "known" The pastor constantly refers to "Transformation" I am a long time christian and instantly knew this was not of God and left that church. They mess with interpersonal relationships and work and anything to do with your person. It iwas the absolute worst experience. Be warned they are alive and well
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Mark Clarke
"And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass." --Genesis 41:32
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dmiller
Jeff --- yup I hear that. I was there that day as a spectator only. Like I said --- it was kinda ironic that I got that call from JAL right before I was going to be in the same area (specifically geographic) where we were going to be playing a square dance the same day. I was being facetious about the *snow on the gas pumps thing*, but I have to admit my curiousity was piqued.
Greg taught, Victor taught, and JAL taught during the course of that evening. If I recollect correct (and I do), Greg taught on how it's *available* for multitudes to be speaking in tongues all at once in a meeting (and genuinely praising God), and Vic taught on how the church was going to be the bride of Christ (I remember him saying he was going to stand FIRM on that teaching, and NOT back down on it), and JAL ran the Athletes of the Spirit video, and made comments about what was * right and wrong*.
Like I done did say --- I wuz jest a spec-tater there. :P
Like some old guy in history once said: Veni, Vidi, Vici. :)
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JeffSjo
Wasn't that location Rush City? I might have been there, but they ran more than one of those meetings in those days.
Barnard was just as dishonest and dishonrable about the sources for the things that he learned from "God" as Wierwille was FYI.
Pharis was going to some length to explain why it was o.k. to do something that Paul said not to do!? It figures, but I don't remember that.
It seems to me, looking back on it, that Jalvis was not really in a good place to be critiquing TWI.
I'm still very glad for you that you walked away that day.
I thought that that latin meant,"I came, I saw, I conquered." Or am I missing something there Dave? :)
(edited for spelling and grammar)
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JeffSjo
Among the last things that I heard from River Road Fellowship under Barnard's lead was:
1. The Lord was going to come back in 2005.
2. Barnard admitted several times in front of the whole church that, "If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison." Of course in classic "cult of personality" style most just took this to mean that Barnard was brave and not to mean that he was twisted and paranoid.
3. It was o.k. for several of the young and unattached girls to vow vows of celibate bridehood to Barnard. One of them came to Twig and said verbatim, "I'm married to the Christ in Victor." IMO he was bitter at his real wife. For most of the women including my ex-wife it was normal to express envy (in a kind manner I suppose) towards Victor's ten maidens.
and
4. He was having his most trusted followers working on a system of protecting him against the inevitable physical threats to his life that he faced constantly. When they kicked me out I was plenty angry too, but I never threatened him beyond saying that I would kick his azz (figuratively speaking) and saying that I would literally mock him, and I said it to his face.
(edited for grammar)
(added in editing)
Yeah, some "haven" for ex-twiers. If they want to go from the frying pan to the fire I suppose.
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AnonymousJ
The off shoots are still around. Dan Tocchini's home church, Santa Rosa Christian church is one such. They practice manipulation, mind games like I have never seen in my lifetime and meddle in interpersonal relationships. They hold momentus introductory meetings at the church property and try to co-oerce members into paying the 500.00 and into taking the training without offering information. When you refuse the trainings, they pretty much let everyone know that this person didn't want to be "known". Most of the members of this church suffer from serious depression episodes. The Pastor constantly refers to "Transformation" in his teachings. It is unlike anything I have ever seen.
But that al being said, there are still some normal biblically based churches, we just have to look "carefully"
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leafytwiglet
Where is this church? NOT In CA???
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Tzaia
For me, the trinity was a real stumbling block to being able to attend and worship at an orthodox church. The other thing was that basic lack of understanding about dialing it down for the seekers in the midst. There was a certain amount of elitism and thinking (on my part) that no one worked the word like TWI.
Once I didn't feel the need to correct everyone's errors in doctrine, I was able to sit in a service and not pick the message apart. I know what I believe and why and that's all that matters to me.
STF/CES does not have a mechanism in place to accept anything outside its own comfort zone until it has been distilled and reworked by one of them - with the exception of Momentus and I think that's only because Tocchini wouldn't allow it. They did it with personal prophecy. They do it with most other ideas as well. For example, DG has read at least one book on small groups, but instead of distributing that book or books and using them directly as a basis for running home fellowships, he borrowed the ideas and put together the same concept sprinkled with CESisms.
There is not ONE radical never-before-contemplated-idea in any of its written materials. But churning out materials creates a revenue stream. One which doesn't even begin to match what TWI was bringing in, but it does pay the bills and keep a few people on staff. I would be more than willing to bet that privately they have kicked themselves for not marketing their class (and they do have one) like PFAL, denouncing the tithe, and somewhat playing by the rules. Money is a real issue and I don't think anyone really thought that one through to the extent that the tithe and PFAL paid the bills. Just my opinion.
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pond
STF does offer alot of material for free tho the truth or tradition website is loaded with stuff and also their monthly podcast is free.
I see alot of work in them .
they do want "prtners" people who will give money for their work, I do not think this wrong or "unbibical " many want to give to a place that feeds their soul .
Money is an issue everywhere sometimes I do think John S. should just for once get a real job God knows he has forced everyone eles to do that, but Dan G. has and Jeff etc.. worked and to be honest John S. may not be able to do anything but research and on his own terms.
hey it is his own "business", it isnt all bad what they produce does help some people even if it is "one of their own" those stuck thinking that is the only way to have the truth in life.
If some break that thought....... what eles is there? for them maybe nothing doesnt work well, and to build a mind anew with churches etc... is not going to work for all.
I think they have problems but I also think they fill a real need for some.
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rascal
...and MAYBE they give the appearance of helping and being alright so that people never do break out and get the help they actually need. They remain forever locked into a poor substitute for the Christian life.
It`s like never having to grow up, or seek help. You have all of the answers and don`t need any balance outside of their group.
My husband gets their garbage...I think in some cases it provides a valid sounding excuse to remain a horses arse...arrogant in the participants knowledge and the spirituality that it supposedly buys them.
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