Are splinter groups "havens" for ex-twiers?

[socks]

"most "corporate" services are what is referred to as "seeker oriented." Seeker services are designed to meet people where they are."

Very true, Tzaia. A local church we've gone to refers to it in family/home terms, and their Sunday services are hmmm...I had the word - "foyer" I think it is, a point of entry and gathering, where you come in and meet, greet and enjoy. It's very open and just about anyone could pop in and get what's going on without a lot of explanation.

They form series with themes that will run for several weeks and do a great job at creative structuring around the service, including stage set props and music. There is a general order of service but it's never seemed to get mundane or pedestrian. I don't go regularly, my wife drops in more than I do, but it's done in such a way that if you do "drop in" you're not lost trying to catch up or understand what they're doing.

Many of the topics cover material I'm familiar with but even at this introductory level they're working with the congregation in a useful, real way so it's not fluff or pop-talk Christianity and I'm usually insipired coming out of them.

This is very different than a "twig" or home fellowship, although the level of warmth and openness is the same - as what a home fellowship should be like. But there's no great challenge every week to get in everyone's face to stand and decide and commit to a class or another meeting or to join and sign up for something. There's depth but at the level that would or could provoke a person to further inquiry. And in fact if you don't you walk out with what you brung and what you got out of it.

This whole approach isn't by accident, it's the result of thought, decision and effort. It's a prayerful effort to be sure with the understanding of doing and offering what God is directing. They feel they're filling a need and in fact are working in concert with other churches and groups who may be doing different things different ways.

That's much different than the way TWI ever worked, in intention and practice. The assumption that God is working and willing in a whole larger context of people and that the entire body is working (or can be) towards a greater vision - I think that's lost in how the Way (and possibly it's children ministries) work where it's a practical and useful reality.

[Tzaia]

STF does offer alot of material for free tho the truth or tradition website is loaded with stuff and also their monthly podcast is free.

I see alot of work in them .

they do want "prtners" people who will give money for their work, I do not think this wrong or "unbibical " many want to give to a place that feeds their soul .

Money is an issue everywhere sometimes I do think John S. should just for once get a real job God knows he has forced everyone eles to do that, but Dan G. has and Jeff etc.. worked and to be honest John S. may not be able to do anything but research and on his own terms.

hey it is his own "business", it isnt all bad what they produce does help some people even if it is "one of their own" those stuck thinking that is the only way to have the truth in life.

If some break that thought....... what eles is there? for them maybe nothing doesnt work well, and to build a mind anew with churches etc... is not going to work for all.

I think they have problems but I also think they fill a real need for some.

The "need" that they fill is the need to be right, practicing "correct" doctrine, yada yada yada.

They don't really do missions. They were going over into the Philippines and did nothing more than stir up stuff and then left these people without a real support system. They're calling and writing begging for help because they've been persecuted out of their homes and are being beaten and tortured over doctrine, but there's no money for that.

[AnonymousJ]

Wise move, dmiiller. Some quotes from one article. (I'm leaving out any positive, balanced reporting because I'm convinced Momentus is Bull-shintus and some people just like their pigs wearing lipstick. And I know it was written in 1994, but when someone's gone this far out on the edge, I don't need a flashlight to see they may be a little dented around the ears. That's enough for me.

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In 1990, two years after quitting Lifespring, he was ready. At that time, he was involved in a home Bible study group at an Episcopal church in Petaluma, Calif., and "there was a buzz about our (meetings) in the congregation at large. . . . I (had developed a skill for) honing in on what people were concealing and the concerns of their hearts."

Another image problem for Momentus involves Tocchini's apparent inability to put his message into conversational English. People come out of the seminars spouting such phrases as "showing up," "where do you stand" and "who we are will show up in how we engage with others regarding the commitments that define our relationship."

Recently, Tocchini has begun replacing some of the psychobabble with weird constitutional language. He talks about "governing the capitol that you are" through your personal legislative, executive and judicial branches, and says that getting "aligned with our God-designed identity . . . (enables us to) enjoy the privileges and benefits of a constitutional republic."

A few have also been irked by the perceived elitism of Momentus graduates. "The attitude seemed to be that anyone who had doubts or questions about Momentus would be fine if you just got him through the (seminar)," says Charles Berlin, an early Santa Rosa supporter who later changed his mind. "But Jesus never said, 'You have to do the seminar.' "

Part of the problem predated Momentus, pastor Strong says. At Tocchini's church, for example, some congregation members were automatically suspicious of the seminar because of fallout from a 1980s movement called shepherding. Under that program, which at one time involved charismatic churches across the country, individuals submitted control of their personal lives to church leaders.

The purpose, Strong says, was to help believers follow biblical teachings, but it got to the point where "people were being told how often to have sex with their wives." That, he says, "left many wary of the next fad. And when that next fad came through–in the form of Momentus–a bunch of people not only said 'no,' but 'hell no.' "

Some observers suggest that the controversy over Momentus may be a lot of sound and fury over nothing. The effects of the seminar on graduates, say several supporters and critics who have watched it long term, often fade or disappear after a few months.

Rex Julian Beaber, a psychologist and attorney familiar with encounter groups, says that isn't surprising:

"The grand lesson of the whole marathon group encounter movement is that the effects are very short-lived. . . . It is very difficult to change another human being."

The only reason people think their lives are different is because "they confuse emotional intensity with significance. What are they doing now that they weren't doing before? Were they unemployed people who now have jobs? . . . Are they best friends with someone they couldn't forgive? The evidence of real change is usually trivial."

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Havens, indeed. Sounds like they were more like hornet's nests.

I don't know if it's true or not but I heard tell 3rd hand that at one of these mental slop-fests a guy being interrogated and accused by his "friends" hauled off and levelled one of them out, flat out punched the other guy right out of his chair. I bet he never got a refund.

HAHAHA! I love it! Now that is music to my ears. They deserved it, I know. Too bad he didn't get a refund.

But that's definitely change.

[AnonymousJ]

SANTA ROSA CHRISTIAN CHURCH in Santa Rosa, California is one such church. It is Creepy at best. This is Dan Tocchini's home church and here they push Momentus on their members and there are many mind games that are played on unknowing people. It was a very bad experience. I went to one of their small groups and discovered most all of the people that have taken these trainings suffer from Severe Depression. I didn't really understand at first. Then when I found out what they were into, I GOT IT! Very creepy I tell you, very creepy. But there are other good Christian churches out there with normal christian people with no new age philosophies.

[pond]

The "need" that they fill is the need to be right, practicing "correct" doctrine, yada yada yada.

They don't really do missions. They were going over into the Philippines and did nothing more than stir up stuff and then left these people without a real support system. They're calling and writing begging for help because they've been persecuted out of their homes and are being beaten and tortured over doctrine, but there's no money for that.

Do you think it would have been better if they just left them alone?

I know they convinced then they must stand for the truth and when all hell broke loose they really couldnt help but I think stf thinks that part is Gods job to save them ..... and consider stf to be in the position twi had put itself before, is it God or is it people then who failed?

[AnonymousJ]

The offshoot that I was involved with did not say (outright) that churches were worthless. However, the offshoot I was involved in truly believed that what was taught in a church (any church) paled in comparison to what it brought to the table. My offshoot borrowed from churches heavily in terms of offerings like worship style and then distilled it for the offshoot's use. My former offshoot did not keep anyone from attending a church, but doing so marked you as an outsider. In its eyes, it was better to be an atheist than someone who had "defected" to a church.

They don't come out and say that to your face anyway, not to attend other churches, that would be far to normal. What they do is have your friends or peers tell you things they don't have the balls to say. Knocking down other churches that arent cultish in nature is the thing they do practice. I know this firsthand. This is definitely "doctrines of Demons" The worship music etc is only a cover for what they are really about.

[Tzaia]

Do you think it would have been better if they just left them alone?

Absolutely! The only thing they did was stir the pot. These people aren't better off believing Jesus isn't God.

I know they convinced then they must stand for the truth and when all hell broke loose they really couldnt help but I think stf thinks that part is Gods job to save them ..... and consider stf to be in the position twi had put itself before, is it God or is it people then who failed?

Who knows? I just think it was very arrogant.