Are splinter groups "havens" for ex-twiers?

[skyrider]

This following statement, on the CES/STF sub-forum, intrigues me:

JAL, in particular, sees STF as being a haven for people who have left TWI, so the entire concept of a seeker type outreach is simply not there.

Unlike churches.....that have local involvement, support groups, youth ministers, childrens' fellowship, etc. etc.......what is the "haven" that splinter groups offer? Are those "havens" of doctrine only?......i.e. "we teach same doctrine, same believer's meetings, same JCNG stuff, greek words, etc"??

From 1986-1989, how many went to these "haven" splinter groups??? THOUSANDS..!!!

By 2004, CES/STF is exposed as a "nose-spider, high prophetess, lawsuit filed" splinter group that went thru the 1990's embrasing Momentus and other crazy side-treks. Is that a "haven?"

Recently, reports are reaching GS that the Geerite group is diminishing as these "franchise/splinter leaders" do NOT want to pay the fees on geer's class contracts. Is this a "haven" that vanished.

In the end...........it seems like some people stayed in twi, some people left, some people jumped into a splinter group, some people never joined, some finally left twi, some saw the scam in CES and Cgeer.........and the "haven" is TRUST THE LORD AND BEWARE OF SCAMS.

<_<

[Watered Garden]

Well, Sky, I'm sure a lot of them are, if not all. There was a time when I would've considered it; comfortable old shoes, even if they are leaky and pinch your small toes, are still comfortable old familiar shoes. I expect for some people, especially those who were leadership in TWI, getting out there in the big bad world was scary as could be.

Now, I wouldn't touch a splinter with a ten foot pair of tweezers. They are just the same-old same-old in a different package.

WG

[Ham]

I vote with the same old same old.. and it's not just doctrine. Maybe not all of them... but for the most part they seem to share a common factor of a "unique" doctrine, the same old hierarchy, whether stated or merely insinuated or assumed.. the same air of arrogance and false authority..

I think they are a comfortable place.. for those who left or who were booted from high positions in der vey, and simply don't have another lucrative position they are qualified for.. or simply don't know how to do anything else.

[Ham]

Look at the sowers group..

my opinion.. what else does a group of pathetic, broken down, has been, unemployable group of ex culties have that they can do..

"lift" the corps principles.. and pfal.. and who knows what else..

what do they actually PRODUCE?

I did ask nicely once.. "what are doing any DIFFERENT?"

[Twinky]

Are those "havens" of doctrine only?......i.e. "we teach same doctrine, same believer's meetings, same JCNG stuff, greek words, etc"??

Yes.

For those still with cult-induced fear of other Christian groups - any haven is worth having.

[skyrider]

Now, I wouldn't touch a splinter with a ten foot pair of tweezers. They are just the same-old same-old in a different package.

In many ways.....the "re-packaging" is WORSE.

Reasons being.....many of these splinter groups have a hierarchy entrenched in arrogance and entitlements. Like MLM systems, the "upper tier" preys on the newbies bringing new blood to the meetings, to the signing papers. The system is flawed on so many levels.........most of which violate the principles of outreach in the early church.

Just as twi has waxed worse and worse..........so have the splinters, imo. Manipulation and exploitation are NOT intricate parts of christian doctrine and service.

[WhiteDove]

This following statement, on the CES/STF sub-forum, intrigues me:

Unlike churches.....that have local involvement, support groups, youth ministers, childrens' fellowship, etc. etc.......what is the "haven" that splinter groups offer? Are those "havens" of doctrine only?......i.e. "we teach same doctrine, same believer's meetings, same JCNG stuff, greek words, etc"??

From 1986-1989, how many went to these "haven" splinter groups??? THOUSANDS..!!!

By 2004, CES/STF is exposed as a "nose-spider, high prophetess, lawsuit filed" splinter group that went thru the 1990's embrasing Momentus and other crazy side-treks. Is that a "haven?"

Recently, reports are reaching GS that the Geerite group is diminishing as these "franchise/splinter leaders" do NOT want to pay the fees on geer's class contracts. Is this a "haven" that vanished.

In the end...........it seems like some people stayed in twi, some people left, some people jumped into a splinter group, some people never joined, some finally left twi, some saw the scam in CES and Cgeer.........and the "haven" is TRUST THE LORD AND BEWARE OF SCAMS.

<_<

I suppose it would depend on the group. Unless one has been involved with each of them all ,and there are a bunch, it is doubtful that one could intelligently offer a critique of them as a whole. I would say primarily that they are a doctrinal haven ,mainstream churches for the most part are social doctrine oriented. Each having it's own pattern of things they accept, some offer speaking in tongues some just wave their hands at you kinda like the tax preparer guys on the corner now. It would be rare to see the scripture as a center of doctrine as former way followers have been used to. For the most part at least in cases I have seen those that found haven in traditional church settings abandoned the scripture in favor of social or program driven ministries. Not that those are necessarily bad things just not at the sacrifice of scripture IMHO. I see many of these havens have progressed toward programs as the years and finances have allowed them. Again it is a matter of what you focus your ministry on some are more interested in soup kitchens than biblical teaching, I think there is a place for both . Do we all need to be the same? One not affiliated with the way Truth for Today has been around for some time they are a more scriptural based study group , of course that comes from a group of authors like Bullinger, Welch and others way believers were familiar with.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

People are herd animals...they seek to belong to a group that will offer them community and reinforcement...everyone wants to belong to something and, in a way, I don't blame them...as for myself, no thanks...when I die, I will stand before God alone...I would rather hang with my true friends than with a religious group...at least I will know that their concern and friendship is genuine...as is mine.

[geisha779]

I suppose it would depend on the group. Unless one has been involved with each of them all ,and there are a bunch, it is doubtful that one could intelligently offer a critique of them as a whole. I would say primarily that they are a doctrinal haven ,mainstream churches for the most part are social doctrine oriented. Each having it's own pattern of things they accept, some offer speaking in tongues some just wave their hands at you kinda like the tax preparer guys on the corner now. It would be rare to see the scripture as a center of doctrine as former way followers have been used to. For the most part at least in cases I have seen those that found haven in traditional church settings abandoned the scripture in favor of social or program driven ministries. Not that those are necessarily bad things just not at the sacrifice of scripture IMHO. I see many of these havens have progressed toward programs as the years and finances have allowed them. Again it is a matter of what you focus your ministry on some are more interested in soup kitchens than biblical teaching, I think there is a place for both . Do we all need to be the same? One not affiliated with the way Truth for Today has been around for some time they are a more scriptural based study group , of course that comes from a group of authors like Bullinger, Welch and others way believers were familiar with.

So we can't give a critique on the splinter groups unless we have been to them all. . . . . but we can go ahead and lump all mainstream churches together and so eloquently critique these???????

Sorry, what were the last 100 churches you were a member of? You should try it sometime. . . . they have bibles and teachers and they pray and everything.

Heck, they even know doctrine. It is rumored that some Christians even go to church.

Edited February 2, 2009 by geisha779

[skyrider]

So we can't give a critique on the splinter groups unless we have been to them all. . . . . but we can go ahead and lump all mainstream churches together and so eloquently critique these???????

Sorry, what were the last 100 churches you were a member of? You should try it sometime. . . . they have bibles and teachers and they pray and everything.

Heck, they even know doctrine. It is rumored that some Christians even go to church.

So true.

Since exiting twi, I've attended probably 20 different churches.........and I gotta say, MY TWI-JADED CRITICISM was put in check rather quickly. One church was going thru a teaching series on Colossians......at another church, one preacher went thru Ephesians 2. I found far more scripture expounding that I imagined.

And......one lady invited me to her Women's Bible Study that has been steadily growing since 1982. Well......being a man, I was very reluctant, but she insisted that some men drop in every once in a while. So I went..........and, wow, what an eye-opener!!! With nearing 275 faithful......THAT was really neat to see. Each year they handle one specific book in the Bible and a dynamic woman handles the background, culture, biblical significance, spiritual insight, etc. And, she showed me the Tape Library and year by year log.

Last year, when I attended.......they were handling the books of I & II Timothy.

So, WD.......you might be surprised what is *out there* if you weren't looking thru those twi-jaded glasses.

<_<

[Ham]

For the most part at least in cases I have seen those that found haven in traditional church settings abandoned the scripture in favor of social or program driven ministries

Just a thought. What exactly technically would be wrong with that, even if they did? What would be wrong with, actually loving individuals with what is supposed to be the love of Christ, instead of attempting to SELL (cram down the throat whether they actually need or want the said product) the person or persons one bible "help" such as one endless class or seminar after another?

All of the boasting of doctrinal superiority.. at best, we were spiritual (supposedly) GEEKS..

[Mark Clarke]

Just a thought. What exactly technically would be wrong with that, even if they did? What would be wrong with, actually loving individuals with what is supposed to be the love of Christ, instead of attempting to SELL (cram down the throat whether they actually need or want the said product) the person or persons one bible "help" such as one endless class or seminar after another?

All of the boasting of doctrinal superiority.. at best, we were spiritual (supposedly) GEEKS..

They don't need to abandon the Scriptures in order to love individuals with the love of Christ. As Geisha and Skyrider pointed out, there are some churches who study the Bible without "Selling" or "Cramming down unwilling throats" or any of the other techniques TWI practiced.

[Ham]

true.. but from an ex(or current)-twi perspective, one might consider doctrinal superiority to be endless running running of classes, sitting in twigs marking greek words in the margins of bibles, doing endless word studies.. "debating" the trinity.. the state of the dead.. in short, sitting with one's thumbs up the wrong place, going nowhere.. doing NOTHING.

I think it's a form of what one of our former "teachers" called being an intellectual weakling..

a person can debate until their face turns blue.. cite greek words and sources, quote scripture.. but lack the REAL ability to produce results..

Edited February 3, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

that is the state of a few offshoots that I have had personal contact with.

And the big defining question is often asked.."what makes us DIFFERENT?" Different from other groups.. organizations.. churches.. often it boils down to this works numbing mindset..

The question I would PERSONALLY ask.. if I were running something like an offshoot.. "what am I doing that is any bit different than the mind numbing, heart hardening, action inhibiting pharisaic practices I learned in twi?"

In nicer words, I asked a couple people that.. didn't get much of a response..

[Ham]

If I wanted to start an offshoot.. there are a number of things I'd consider..

The LAST THING in the WORLD- I would NOT want to resemble twi in any way shape or form..

I wouldn't copy their training goals and methods.. the same methods would produce (eventually) the same product- goons and meddlers..

I wouldn't copy their classes.

I'd drop the arrogance. Then maybe God could actually teach me something..

I'd seek some LEGITIMATE affiliation..instead of crying "boo hoo, *they* are all trinitarians.."

then.. I guess it wouldn't really be an "offshoot"..

[WordWolf]

It's struck me more that splinter groups have been "AIRLOCKS" for twi survivors.

That is, when leaving twi, it's easier to spend some time in a splinter group, then to eventually

look around and realize there's a great big world out there- a world with all sorts of Christians

with happy lives. Then the twi survivor can leave the splinter and rejoin the rest of humanity.

[Ham]

I dunno. When I was out of twi.. I wasn't aware of the offshoot active here. It was close to a year before somebody contacted me. "Cold turkey" isn't so bad..

a family member asked.. "whadda we do NOW?" Well.. we get involved in the community.. try to make friends.. who knows..

[leafytwiglet]

I think because we are creatures of habit and a herd animal that in a small sense they are like a little haven for ex-twi'ers

I went cold turkey myself as there were no splinter groups when we left but when the chance arose to join back in I had been out long enough on my own to have the cold finger of fear to keep me out.

But if I had lived through the sudden disolving of the late 80's it might have been for me a comfort to join a splinter group.

THe things I have heard about the ones people on here have been involved in have certainly made me much more aware of the following:

1. I was lucky to get out when I did. (right as the legalistic side of TTWi was just starting to show it's ugly head at the Twig level.

2. I was lucky there were no splinter groups around when I left so I wouldn't become entangled

3. The fruit of TWI was rotten to the core, I need to re evaluate every thing I thought I knew about God and the bible.

4. By leaving when I did I escaped Relatively unscathed

5.I still don't really trust any one in the spiritual arena of my life, 26 years later.

6. This distrust , though a hamper at times is also a safe guard.

[Mark Clarke]

It's struck me more that splinter groups have been "AIRLOCKS" for twi survivors.

That is, when leaving twi, it's easier to spend some time in a splinter group, then to eventually

look around and realize there's a great big world out there- a world with all sorts of Christians

with happy lives. Then the twi survivor can leave the splinter and rejoin the rest of humanity.

That's kind of how it was for me. It was in an offshoot group that I started learning about the Kingdom of God, the error of dispensationalism, and a number of other things that differed from TWI doctrine. Had it not been an offshoot with an ex-Way leader, I might not have accepted what was taught, because I had been so indoctrinated. Later, when the leader and the group showed more signs of being like TWI, I was marked and avoided, and I am the better for it. But the "new" doctrines I learned from them, I still carry with me, and share with other groups who also hold them, that were never associated with TWI.

[WhiteDove]

So we can't give a critique on the splinter groups unless we have been to them all. . . . . but we can go ahead and lump all mainstream churches together and so eloquently critique these???????

Sorry, what were the last 100 churches you were a member of? You should try it sometime. . . . they have bibles and teachers and they pray and everything.

Heck, they even know doctrine. It is rumored that some Christians even go to church.

I think it is fairly logical that one can not critique honestly something that they have not been a part of.

I believe you failed to read what I said..... I lumped nothing together and referenced nothing "as all."

Perhaps you missed these important parts of my post.

for the most part , For the most part at least in cases I have seen " ,IMHO"

As to offshoots I have stayed fairly in tune with what many are and have been doing through teachings weekly ,monthly, newsletters, personal communication ,books, and personal involvement. I can pretty much tell you with a fair degree of accuracy what the top 25 or so are up to over the last 19 years or so, despite the fact that I only live in Kansas. Some have online live hookups that you can login to as well.

I also make it a point to visit many churches note I did not say every church but a representation of most denominations, in fact last week I just attended a new one the Journey church here. It is a blue jeans and latte kind of church. People can sit out in the coffee shop and watch the service on flat screen televisions if they desire. The large hall adjacent to the auditorium has round tables and bar stools along with a coffee bar. I can personally attest to the fact that many of the churches around here as many I have read about in other places for the past few years have been deeply involved with the new best sellers like the Purpose Drivel Life, The Prayer of Jabez and other such books Not exactly Bibles or scripture. That's fine if free coffee and social commentary are what you want, I don't qualify that as scripture.

Just a thought. What exactly technically would be wrong with that, even if they did? What would be wrong with, actually loving individuals with what is supposed to be the love of Christ, instead of attempting to SELL (cram down the throat whether they actually need or want the said product) the person or persons one bible "help" such as one endless class or seminar after another?

All of the boasting of doctrinal superiority.. at best, we were spiritual (supposedly) GEEKS..

Had you read my post the answer to your question was in the following line to the one you quoted

Not that those are necessarily bad things just not at the sacrifice of scripture IMHO. I see many of these havens have progressed toward programs as the years and finances have allowed them. Again it is a matter of what you focus your ministry on some are more interested in soup kitchens than biblical teaching, I think there is a place for both .

[WhiteDove]

They don't need to abandon the Scriptures in order to love individuals with the love of Christ. As Geisha and Skyrider pointed out, there are some churches who study the Bible without "Selling" or "Cramming down unwilling throats" or any of the other techniques TWI practiced.

I don't recall such practices I think one was free to come or go as they pleased, I think the term was freely avail themselves to fellowship.

[skyrider]

I don't recall such practices I think one was free to come or go as they pleased, I think the term was freely avail themselves to fellowship.

Yes, WD.....you are correct, the propaganda term used in the 70's was freely avail themselves......especially if one were to stay in Kansas and never go WOW or into the Corps.

BUT............GreaseSpot offers a forum of discussion than debunks twi's propaganda as real life testimonies expose the escalation of manipulation, coersion, and exploitation. The twi spin can NO LONGER be spun......without being challenged by those of us who were there. Sure, you can stick with your little "propaganda blatherings" but those pigs don't fly around here.

The wierwille cult was NOT the haven it propagated to be.......not spiritually, not socially, not voluntarily. The wheels of controlling agendas were always grinding behind the scenes and far from view of the naive newcomers.

[Ham]

I dunno.. my experience was I was hounded to death to take this little known class.. even after I paid..

I paid about 3/4 of a year before they could come up with another six people to run an audio class. Can you imagine being "undersheherded" for 3/4 of a year?

After a while.. the group relaxed.. figured I wasn't going to run off or something..

but then, the class! Suddenly, it seemed *they* were so desperately AFRAID that the "devil" would try to talk me out of it all.. that somehow, their SOLE PURPOSE in life was to see to it that I crossed the "finish line".

I thought it was comical..

but my general impression.. people were on spiritual PROBATION until they sat through this mind numbing class, to the end.. but this was only the first hurdle.

Then they couldn't be "trusted" with any of the other "manifestations".. more classes, more activities.. more, more more.

And one never "arrived".

[Ham]

GENERALLY.. the offshoots are no better. They have adopted this multi-tier caste system..

How many hoops does one have to jump through, before one ever "arrives"?

what I saw this system produce.. NOVICES who merely had enough stamina to endure the rapid succession of different classes and seminars, placed in positions of authority they really had no qualifications for.. and they had not "arrived" yet either.. more classes, more meetings.. corps.. etc. etc..

some of them have chosen to STAY novices.. into their fifties and sixties..

[rascal]

Yeah Geisha, Great point, on behalf of the churches...I have to say I am offended by Dove`s perception of a place that he has never deigned to visit.

My smaller kids, and my teens and spouse and all of their friends attend a superb bible study every week. Kids come out from town. They are fired up and as dynamic as any fellowship I ever went to, and growing. The ladies in this same little country church raise money at a christmas craft bazzar every year. Guess who paid for my Dr. visit to the specialist when I couldn`t afford it last month?? Guess who took me all the way to Nashville, paid for the gas and took me to lunch afterwards? The retired minister with funds from these ladies. Because I asked?? Oh hell no, but because they found out that I was so terribly ill and unable to pay to even walk through the doors of the special clinic.

The same lady took my kid to the local college last week and introduced her to the people who can get her the money for scholarships and such. Guess who starts college in the fall courtesy of these folks?? Yeah, MY kid.

Thats just what they have done for me this month. Last weekend my teens were with this church helping build a house for a local family who lost everything in the last tornado. I heard recently about an innocent young woman sentenced to 30 years...she wasn`t even FROM this area, but came to this same ministers attention. She and people she knew fought for over 5 years and got the gal not only freed but exonerated and her children returned. We won`t even mention the cancer patient down the road that lives alone and is taken to her bi weekly treatments in Nashville.

Know what else? We are not even members of this church....I might attend a couple of times a year....but hey....thats what Christians do for one another.....as opposed to the posers that play at being Christians in so many of the groups that have their roots in twi.

Oh and think it`s a big metropolitan church with big dollars to burn?? There might be 25 active members.....and look at what they manage to accomplish, the lives impacted compared with twi and it`s millions, or the off shoots with their tens of thousands of members...What the hell good does their precious truth and doctrine that sets them apart REALLY do for anybody except make them arrogant and complacent and absolve them of any responsibility to REALLY act like a christian?

Edited February 3, 2009 by rascal