But thinking of sacrifice, would it be about, giving up something for something else? Sort of a simple view I think, with all that is implied and written.
I don't think God sacrificed Jesus. Can't see that anywhere.
But that Jesus sacrificed himself. Sacrificed the Christ.
Reminds me of the Comforter being spoken of as another.
I get the basic concept of sacrifice. I think we all make sacrifices, for our children, our family, our community and country, etc. Many men and women have sacrificed their lives for our country, for instance. Most parents would sacrifice their own life to save the life of their child, I imagine.
I can get behind the notion that Jesus sacrificed his own life. It is the idea that God set in motion a specific plan that required Him to commit a human sacrifice of his own (and allegedly only begotten) son, as the only way for man to be redeemed that I have trouble comprehending. Especially if this God who set in motion this plan, is supposed to be the same God of the OT who so hated human sacrifice. Over and over we read in the OT how the Jewish people angered God for worshipping idols. But if you look closely at those scriptures, it isn't just that they were worshipping idols, it was that they were sacrificing human beings.
There are many instances where Jewish people broke the laws and things worked out well, even though they broke the laws. But, whenever they started performing human sacrifices, that was when God really seemed to get ticked off. So how, then, could HE have possibly set in motion this plan whereby the only way for man to be redeemed was by doing the very thing he seemed to hate?
That was one of the things TWI taught, that I always sort of struggled with. It seems to be taught in other sects of Christianity as well.
Still have my mind in the hell thread!! But, here is something that may provoke thought or debate here. I am still working on pluralism, but truly this is an important issue. I do understand the Jewish perspective on this. So, maybe this will help a wee bit.
I also understand that Jewish people do not believe that one man can atone for the sins of another, that Jesus, being a man, did nothing more than offer a human death. . . and God being eternal cannot die. Geeze. . . . Who was this guy Jesus anyway? :)
This is from a post I found with a search. Honestly, I couldn't find it again, but I will try. . . . I used to sell Geisha Girl China. . . a collectible, and I would do the auction circuit. I became friendly with this woman who was very religious, Jewish. She even brought her rabbi to meet me one night. He and I became frenemies. . . all on his part. . . I liked him. He didn't want me to discuss my faith with my new friend. I respected that. . . but he and I went around and around. . . he even tried to get me to go to a Kabutz(SP). This is the issue. . . we never made it around.
Maybe Romans will help us a bit. . . who knows.. . . either way it is interesting.
Yes, God hates human sacrifice which the nations practiced and Israel sometimes copied. But to compare the sacrificing of a child against their will, to Jesus willingly laying down His life so that we could have eternal life, is a gross misunderstanding. I’m really not sure why you have a problem with this. Read again the following quote… Your own Rabbis didn’t used to see this as a problem. They understood this because they knew that God was far to holy to simply approach on the basis of our own good works. They knew that it was God who demanded a blood sacrifice. For example, consider the following Rabbinic quote concerning Zech 12:10
Rabbi Moshe Alshekh on the Messianic implication of Zech 12:10
“I will do yet a thing, and that is, that ‘they shall look unto me for they shall lift up their eyes unto me in perfect repentance, when they see Him whom they have pierced’, that is Messiah, the son of Joseph; for our Rabbis, of blessed memory, have said that He will take upon Himself all the guilt of Israel, and shall then be slain in the war to make atonement in such manner that it shall be accounted as if Israel had pierced Him, for on account of their sin He has died; and therefore, in order that it may be reckoned to them as a perfect atonement, they will repent and look to the blessed One, saying, that there is none beside Him to forgive those that mourn on account of Him who died for their sin: this is the meaning of ‘they shall look upon me.’”
Rabbi R. Elyyah de Vidas on Isaiah 53
“The meaning of ‘he was wounded for our transgressions, ... bruised for our iniquities’ is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of His being bruised, it follows that whoever will not admit that the Messiah suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for themselves.”
Now, you may say that Gnostics made up Jesus out of thin air and simply copied other pagan thoughts but you would have to be an idiot not to see that Jesus did exactly what these Rabbi’s said the Messiah would do. No, not a copy of pagan thought, but a fulfillment of what the Rabbi’s said that the Messiah would do taken straight from the Old Testament. Nothing Pagan ‘bout that!. Let’s just state a few of the things that these Rabbis said the Messiah would do:
Be the Son of Joseph (and therefore, like Joseph, be rejected by his brothers)
Make atonement through his death by taking the guilt of Israel upon Himself
Be pierced on account of their sin
Die for their sin
Bear Israel iniquities
According to this Rabbi, “anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that Messiah suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for themselves.”
I went to Rabbi Singer’s website and he had an article stating that one man could not make atonement for others sins (in an effort to discredit Jesus). Singer wrote “The prophets never instruct the Jews to worship any crucified messiah or demigod; nor does scripture ever tell us that an innocent man can die as an atonement for the sins of the wicked. Such a message is utterly antithetical to the teachings of the Jewish scriptures.”
That the Messiah would die to make atonement for sins may be utterly antithetical to the teachings of Singer himself, but they are in perfect agreement with what Judaism used to believe – based on those same Jewish scriptures.
Rabbi Moshe Alshekh above states that the very reason the Messiah would die is to “make atonement”, and that He bears their sin “in order that it may be reckoned to them as a perfect atonement.” This is exactly the message that I preach concerning Jesus. This I understand because it lines up perfectly with the Old Testament blood sacrifices and prophetic scriptures and history records it as having happened.
Also. . . . 4 Macc 6:26-28: "When he was now burned to his very bones and about to expire, he lifted up his eyes to God and said, 27 "You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments for the sake of the law. 28 Be merciful to your people, and let our punishment suffice for them. 29 Make my blood their purification, and take my life in exchange for theirs."
4 Macc 17.20-22: "These, then, who have been consecrated for the sake of God, are honored, not only with this honor, but also by the fact that because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation, 21 the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified-they having become, as it were, a ransom for the sin of our nation. 22 And through the blood of those devout ones and their death as an atoning sacrifice, divine Providence preserved Israel that previously had been mistreated."
Still have my mind in the hell thread!! But, here is something that may provoke thought or debate here. I am still working on pluralism, but truly this is an important issue. I do understand the Jewish perspective on this. So, maybe this will help a wee bit.
I also understand that Jewish people do not believe that one man can atone for the sins of another, that Jesus, being a man, did nothing more than offer a human death. . . and God being eternal cannot die. Geeze. . . . Who was this guy Jesus anyway? :)
HA! I like your sense of humor in all of this, Geisha! Though I would add, I do not take Jesus so lightly. I do think that perhpas he was one of the great teachers and worthy of study!
This is from a post I found with a search. Honestly, I couldn't find it again, but I will try. . . . I used to sell Geisha Girl China. . . a collectible, and I would do the auction circuit. I became friendly with this woman who was very religious, Jewish. She even brought her rabbi to meet me one night. He and I became frenemies. . . all on his part. . . I liked him. He didn't want me to discuss my faith with my new friend. I respected that. . . but he and I went around and around. . . he even tried to get me to go to a Kabutz(SP). This is the issue. . . we never made it around.
Maybe Romans will help us a bit. . . who knows.. . . either way it is interesting.
It is interesting and I look forward to our discussions. Perhaps you will be relieved to know I do not follow a particular rabbi or sect, but rather study a variety of them. I take what sits peacefully in my heart from each of them and dismiss the rest. Once again, the beauty of being free from cultic black and white thinking is the freedom to pick and choose. :)
And really, there is much disagreement and debate among the differing sects of Judaism and the Rabbis regarding the meaning and application of various verses - not so very different than Christianity or any other major religion.
You will find Messianic Jews who believe Jesus was the messiah. You will find Jews who believe that humanity collectively will be the messiah when/as we reorder the world. You will find Jews who believe in heaven and hell and Jews who do not.
Like Christianity, there are some basic fundamental things that knit us together (such as lighting the sabbath candles on Friday night) and then there are vast differences.
Yes, God hates human sacrifice which the nations practiced and Israel sometimes copied. But to compare the sacrificing of a child against their will, to Jesus willingly laying down His life so that we could have eternal life, is a gross misunderstanding. I’m really not sure why you have a problem with this.
I do see the distinction between forcing a child against their will and an adult freely willing. Where the distinction becomes lost, for me however, is with the notion of a parent freely offering. I do not understand and cannot comprehend how a parent can sacrifice the life of a child. Not a human parent and certainly not an all loving diety parent. Especially if that diety not only allegedly "planned" and "foreordained" the death of his own child, but made it so that the only way mankind could be redeemed was through this plan.
Read again the following quote… Your own Rabbis didn’t used to see this as a problem. They understood this because they knew that God was far to holy to simply approach on the basis of our own good works. They knew that it was God who demanded a blood sacrifice. For example, consider the following Rabbinic quote concerning Zech 12:10
There are many arguments among many Rabbis. The conclusion I have come to is that God did not demand a blood sacrifice as atonement for sin in the way that tradition Christianity teaches it. I think I covered this issue in the "hell" thread, so I will leave it there for now. :)
a stream of thoughts and feelings on a few of the verses...
mark 12:33 - And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
To Love God, to Love the Sacred, the Love the everpresent Divine ...is to love All...because God is All in All.
To "be one with God" is about more than "being one in purpose" with God,
it is to sacrifice (kill) one's addiction to the human ego as the bounds of our identity.
And i often hear it said that "love neighbor as self" is an expression of the golden rule..."do onto others..."
...but like the first half ...it seems higher, wider, deeper than that.
To love neighbor as one's self...is to realize that same non-seperation from the Divine in the person of a so-called "other"
in both cases..."other" is the primary illusion we are to sacrifice
which naturally frees us and opens us up to a much more wider sense of care and concern
not merely friendship, or even Frienship...but FRIENDSHIP
reminds me of a prayer practice that was taught to me by a certain rabbi
where one prays to God for the wellbeing of an "other"
while gazing into the eyes of that "other"
completing the circuit "from God to me to you to God again"
thus, sacrificing one's primary identification with a human ego
romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
this reminds me of the perennial invitation to "die before you die, so that when you die, you will not die."
much like...
John 12:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
1 Corinthians 15:36 - Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
self sacrifice = transcending the human ego ... and then wholly including it
so that God has a vehicle for service to All
...
as ive often said...most of the bible (both NT and OT) is a "jewish book of dying"
where contemplation = practicing "dying before we die"
and "death = enlightenment at gunpoint"
but contemplative practices are a self-initiated conscious way to make us "accident prone" to "falling into" a direct felt experiences of this way of being
as does the misfortune suffering and loss...and other occasions of radical grace
but it seems that...as with the 20th century
the first century had forgotten such ancient universal lessons...and were on a similar "flight from death"
and in our terror of dying...we often misunderstand and twist the content and context of ancient texts into exclusive and unconscious forms of religious oppression and dis-ease
but it seems Jesus sacrificed himself (by his death and life) to re-awaken personal, cultural, rational and social capacities to "die before we die"
and caused a pre-modern formation of monastic orders of practicing caregivers and midwives for "the soul"
fundamental to this type of life (monks, nuns, etc...in any language)
was that the caregivers FiRST examined and healed their own sense of selves in this regard (dying before they died)
so that they could hold space without having one's un-examined shadows foul up the scene
and help heal those who found themselves "doing all their homework at the end of life"
but when one has not endured some crucible of self-examination...and is not ego-aware...
or worse...foolishly thinks that they have somehow destroyed their ego
...we get "healers run amuck" ...which cause way more harm than good
i find this easy to discern in religions, sciences, medicines, dialogues, etc...
...just watch for the trails of smoking ruins..and a general increase in suffering...and it should be easy to say "that's not it."
Sir G--'reminds me of a prayer practice that was taught to me by a certain rabbi
where one prays to God for the wellbeing of an "other"
while gazing into the eyes of that "other"
completing the circuit "from God to me to you to God again"
thus, sacrificing one's primary identification with a human ego"
Moving practice.
I read a book several years ago--How Ireland saved civilization or something like that, and it went into the monastic movement, and how vital that was for the people of that time. I think I will look it up and read it again
I guess I would be asking different questions. I would ask myself why is a human life so precious and the shedding of innocent blood so dear? I would also
ask myself why God would consider the unwilling innocent life sacrificed to idols. . . . an abomination.
Then I would wonder why. . . He would do this Himself. . . with a willing heart and willing sacrifice. . . as the ultimate and final sacrifice forever. What was the
meaning behind it. . . I would consider what that is in relation to scripture. A source we do have and can look at for meaning. The book of Hebrews discusses
Sir G you brought to mind that both birth and death are profoundly transformative experiences to an individual and to the loved ones/family of the individual.
There is a new baby in my family, my niece's child, a difficult pregnancy, a difficult life change for two college kids, a difficult birth with the baby a week or more in the hospital, and possible life difficulties ahead for that little one due to birth issues... young father who ran out halfway through the pregnancy now in tears at the hospital because his unwanted baby suddenly became very precious and not doing so well, all hooked up in neonatal on oxygen... parental and family joy, fear, remorse, relief, the knowledge of what might have been without medical care this baby received...
The mystery religions had a sacrificial dying god, ancient grain and crop gods(grain, wine, bread and wine) the death transformed the god, and healed the land/people, brought forth renewal and abundance. A god's descent into death, (Innana's comes to mind), the journey, descent made them more and more vulnerable, stripped of their powers and wealth, but transformation was the end result. Symbolic death and birth are at the heart of transformation, and the descent into vulnerability like our own aging, makes us more and more vulnerable.
I guess I would be asking different questions. I would ask myself why is a human life so precious and the shedding of innocent blood so dear? I would also
ask myself why God would consider the unwilling innocent life sacrificed to idols. . . . an abomination.
Then I would wonder why. . . He would do this Himself. . . with a willing heart and willing sacrifice. . . as the ultimate and final sacrifice forever. What was the
meaning behind it. . . I would consider what that is in relation to scripture. A source we do have and can look at for meaning. The book of Hebrews discusses
much of this very thing.
Geisha, I have been reading Hebrews this morning and started to put together a response to this. Unfortunately, I am not sure how to do it without it becoming unwieldy and extremely lengthy. I will continue to think on it and see if I can come up with a way to share my thoughts in a shorter, more cohesive post than the one I started to write. :)
The liturgy ofthe Catholic Mass was meant to be a journey of sorts to remember the sacrifice, combined with a sacred meal. I suspect it was one a transformative experience for those that knew and were instructed.
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Abigail
Looking forward to your thoughts, Cman!!
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cman
Well, of course there is a ton of scripture-
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?q...mp;qs_version=9
But thinking of sacrifice, would it be about, giving up something for something else? Sort of a simple view I think, with all that is implied and written.
I don't think God sacrificed Jesus. Can't see that anywhere.
But that Jesus sacrificed himself. Sacrificed the Christ.
Reminds me of the Comforter being spoken of as another.
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Abigail
I get the basic concept of sacrifice. I think we all make sacrifices, for our children, our family, our community and country, etc. Many men and women have sacrificed their lives for our country, for instance. Most parents would sacrifice their own life to save the life of their child, I imagine.
I can get behind the notion that Jesus sacrificed his own life. It is the idea that God set in motion a specific plan that required Him to commit a human sacrifice of his own (and allegedly only begotten) son, as the only way for man to be redeemed that I have trouble comprehending. Especially if this God who set in motion this plan, is supposed to be the same God of the OT who so hated human sacrifice. Over and over we read in the OT how the Jewish people angered God for worshipping idols. But if you look closely at those scriptures, it isn't just that they were worshipping idols, it was that they were sacrificing human beings.
There are many instances where Jewish people broke the laws and things worked out well, even though they broke the laws. But, whenever they started performing human sacrifices, that was when God really seemed to get ticked off. So how, then, could HE have possibly set in motion this plan whereby the only way for man to be redeemed was by doing the very thing he seemed to hate?
That was one of the things TWI taught, that I always sort of struggled with. It seems to be taught in other sects of Christianity as well.
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geisha779
Abi,
Still have my mind in the hell thread!! But, here is something that may provoke thought or debate here. I am still working on pluralism, but truly this is an important issue. I do understand the Jewish perspective on this. So, maybe this will help a wee bit.
I also understand that Jewish people do not believe that one man can atone for the sins of another, that Jesus, being a man, did nothing more than offer a human death. . . and God being eternal cannot die. Geeze. . . . Who was this guy Jesus anyway? :)
This is from a post I found with a search. Honestly, I couldn't find it again, but I will try. . . . I used to sell Geisha Girl China. . . a collectible, and I would do the auction circuit. I became friendly with this woman who was very religious, Jewish. She even brought her rabbi to meet me one night. He and I became frenemies. . . all on his part. . . I liked him. He didn't want me to discuss my faith with my new friend. I respected that. . . but he and I went around and around. . . he even tried to get me to go to a Kabutz(SP). This is the issue. . . we never made it around.
Maybe Romans will help us a bit. . . who knows.. . . either way it is interesting.
Yes, God hates human sacrifice which the nations practiced and Israel sometimes copied. But to compare the sacrificing of a child against their will, to Jesus willingly laying down His life so that we could have eternal life, is a gross misunderstanding. I’m really not sure why you have a problem with this. Read again the following quote… Your own Rabbis didn’t used to see this as a problem. They understood this because they knew that God was far to holy to simply approach on the basis of our own good works. They knew that it was God who demanded a blood sacrifice. For example, consider the following Rabbinic quote concerning Zech 12:10
Rabbi Moshe Alshekh on the Messianic implication of Zech 12:10
“I will do yet a thing, and that is, that ‘they shall look unto me for they shall lift up their eyes unto me in perfect repentance, when they see Him whom they have pierced’, that is Messiah, the son of Joseph; for our Rabbis, of blessed memory, have said that He will take upon Himself all the guilt of Israel, and shall then be slain in the war to make atonement in such manner that it shall be accounted as if Israel had pierced Him, for on account of their sin He has died; and therefore, in order that it may be reckoned to them as a perfect atonement, they will repent and look to the blessed One, saying, that there is none beside Him to forgive those that mourn on account of Him who died for their sin: this is the meaning of ‘they shall look upon me.’”
Rabbi R. Elyyah de Vidas on Isaiah 53
“The meaning of ‘he was wounded for our transgressions, ... bruised for our iniquities’ is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of His being bruised, it follows that whoever will not admit that the Messiah suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for themselves.”
Now, you may say that Gnostics made up Jesus out of thin air and simply copied other pagan thoughts but you would have to be an idiot not to see that Jesus did exactly what these Rabbi’s said the Messiah would do. No, not a copy of pagan thought, but a fulfillment of what the Rabbi’s said that the Messiah would do taken straight from the Old Testament. Nothing Pagan ‘bout that!. Let’s just state a few of the things that these Rabbis said the Messiah would do:
Be the Son of Joseph (and therefore, like Joseph, be rejected by his brothers)
Make atonement through his death by taking the guilt of Israel upon Himself
Be pierced on account of their sin
Die for their sin
Bear Israel iniquities
According to this Rabbi, “anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that Messiah suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer for themselves.”
I went to Rabbi Singer’s website and he had an article stating that one man could not make atonement for others sins (in an effort to discredit Jesus). Singer wrote “The prophets never instruct the Jews to worship any crucified messiah or demigod; nor does scripture ever tell us that an innocent man can die as an atonement for the sins of the wicked. Such a message is utterly antithetical to the teachings of the Jewish scriptures.”
That the Messiah would die to make atonement for sins may be utterly antithetical to the teachings of Singer himself, but they are in perfect agreement with what Judaism used to believe – based on those same Jewish scriptures.
Rabbi Moshe Alshekh above states that the very reason the Messiah would die is to “make atonement”, and that He bears their sin “in order that it may be reckoned to them as a perfect atonement.” This is exactly the message that I preach concerning Jesus. This I understand because it lines up perfectly with the Old Testament blood sacrifices and prophetic scriptures and history records it as having happened.
Also. . . . 4 Macc 6:26-28: "When he was now burned to his very bones and about to expire, he lifted up his eyes to God and said, 27 "You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments for the sake of the law. 28 Be merciful to your people, and let our punishment suffice for them. 29 Make my blood their purification, and take my life in exchange for theirs."
4 Macc 17.20-22: "These, then, who have been consecrated for the sake of God, are honored, not only with this honor, but also by the fact that because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation, 21 the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified-they having become, as it were, a ransom for the sin of our nation. 22 And through the blood of those devout ones and their death as an atoning sacrifice, divine Providence preserved Israel that previously had been mistreated."
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cman
It's that darn predestination thing again Abigail.
Perhaps partly in the mind.
Plans are made and carried out.
I don't believe the 'foreknowledge' ideas and theology.
If it's possible to put these things together Now.
The past, the future, the present.
The 'we' of Genesis.
To become one.
As the mortals begin to put on immortality.
And the corrupt are caught up into incorruptibility.
Waking up to it actually.
To the present realities.
Let us make man in our image.
Why?
And if the eyes open, they shall see that they are just like 'we'.
Ever think that we are headed beyond Genesis 1?
Sacrifice for sin, because of, the beginning.
Who really sinned in Genesis?
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Abigail
Indeed, Cman. :) And what, exactly, is sin?
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Abigail
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sirguessalot
nice, cman
hi abi and all
a stream of thoughts and feelings on a few of the verses...
To Love God, to Love the Sacred, the Love the everpresent Divine ...is to love All...because God is All in All.
To "be one with God" is about more than "being one in purpose" with God,
it is to sacrifice (kill) one's addiction to the human ego as the bounds of our identity.
And i often hear it said that "love neighbor as self" is an expression of the golden rule..."do onto others..."
...but like the first half ...it seems higher, wider, deeper than that.
To love neighbor as one's self...is to realize that same non-seperation from the Divine in the person of a so-called "other"
in both cases..."other" is the primary illusion we are to sacrifice
which naturally frees us and opens us up to a much more wider sense of care and concern
not merely friendship, or even Frienship...but FRIENDSHIP
reminds me of a prayer practice that was taught to me by a certain rabbi
where one prays to God for the wellbeing of an "other"
while gazing into the eyes of that "other"
completing the circuit "from God to me to you to God again"
thus, sacrificing one's primary identification with a human ego
this reminds me of the perennial invitation to "die before you die, so that when you die, you will not die."
much like...
self sacrifice = transcending the human ego ... and then wholly including it
so that God has a vehicle for service to All
...
as ive often said...most of the bible (both NT and OT) is a "jewish book of dying"
where contemplation = practicing "dying before we die"
and "death = enlightenment at gunpoint"
but contemplative practices are a self-initiated conscious way to make us "accident prone" to "falling into" a direct felt experiences of this way of being
as does the misfortune suffering and loss...and other occasions of radical grace
but it seems that...as with the 20th century
the first century had forgotten such ancient universal lessons...and were on a similar "flight from death"
and in our terror of dying...we often misunderstand and twist the content and context of ancient texts into exclusive and unconscious forms of religious oppression and dis-ease
but it seems Jesus sacrificed himself (by his death and life) to re-awaken personal, cultural, rational and social capacities to "die before we die"
and caused a pre-modern formation of monastic orders of practicing caregivers and midwives for "the soul"
fundamental to this type of life (monks, nuns, etc...in any language)
was that the caregivers FiRST examined and healed their own sense of selves in this regard (dying before they died)
so that they could hold space without having one's un-examined shadows foul up the scene
and help heal those who found themselves "doing all their homework at the end of life"
but when one has not endured some crucible of self-examination...and is not ego-aware...
or worse...foolishly thinks that they have somehow destroyed their ego
...we get "healers run amuck" ...which cause way more harm than good
i find this easy to discern in religions, sciences, medicines, dialogues, etc...
...just watch for the trails of smoking ruins..and a general increase in suffering...and it should be easy to say "that's not it."
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cman
thanks sirg,
you have a way to flow it
motivation is perhaps important
or reason, the source of it
cast your bread upon many waters
not knowing where or how or what will wash up
but it will, even quite surprisingly so
or come flying by
gotta look up too....:)
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cman
even then it's carried forward
and transformed
in a moment maybe
or however long we let it
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Bramble
Sir G--'reminds me of a prayer practice that was taught to me by a certain rabbi
where one prays to God for the wellbeing of an "other"
while gazing into the eyes of that "other"
completing the circuit "from God to me to you to God again"
thus, sacrificing one's primary identification with a human ego"
Moving practice.
I read a book several years ago--How Ireland saved civilization or something like that, and it went into the monastic movement, and how vital that was for the people of that time. I think I will look it up and read it again
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sirguessalot
yeah Bramble
"How the Irish Saved Civilization" by Thomas Cahill
...another good pagan celtic title:
"The Celtic Way of Prayer: The Recovery of the Religious Imagination" by Esther de Waal
and anything by John O'Donohue or David Whyte
...
more thoughts re: sacrifice...
the natural way of the human ego is ascension, attainment, winning, success and accomplishment
but the language of "descent" is one of the overall themes of the Bible
...failure, powerlessness, vulnerability...as if we have to be taught how to "win by losing"
as if the sacrifice of Jesus caused more than a magical or mythical or literal or metaphysical change in the rules of the universe
but rather...it vividly and unforgettably reminded us of a very real something that us paleolithic spiritual human animals already know
...but tend to forget
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geisha779
I guess I would be asking different questions. I would ask myself why is a human life so precious and the shedding of innocent blood so dear? I would also
ask myself why God would consider the unwilling innocent life sacrificed to idols. . . . an abomination.
Then I would wonder why. . . He would do this Himself. . . with a willing heart and willing sacrifice. . . as the ultimate and final sacrifice forever. What was the
meaning behind it. . . I would consider what that is in relation to scripture. A source we do have and can look at for meaning. The book of Hebrews discusses
much of this very thing.
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Bramble
Sir G you brought to mind that both birth and death are profoundly transformative experiences to an individual and to the loved ones/family of the individual.
There is a new baby in my family, my niece's child, a difficult pregnancy, a difficult life change for two college kids, a difficult birth with the baby a week or more in the hospital, and possible life difficulties ahead for that little one due to birth issues... young father who ran out halfway through the pregnancy now in tears at the hospital because his unwanted baby suddenly became very precious and not doing so well, all hooked up in neonatal on oxygen... parental and family joy, fear, remorse, relief, the knowledge of what might have been without medical care this baby received...
The mystery religions had a sacrificial dying god, ancient grain and crop gods(grain, wine, bread and wine) the death transformed the god, and healed the land/people, brought forth renewal and abundance. A god's descent into death, (Innana's comes to mind), the journey, descent made them more and more vulnerable, stripped of their powers and wealth, but transformation was the end result. Symbolic death and birth are at the heart of transformation, and the descent into vulnerability like our own aging, makes us more and more vulnerable.
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Abigail
Geisha, I have been reading Hebrews this morning and started to put together a response to this. Unfortunately, I am not sure how to do it without it becoming unwieldy and extremely lengthy. I will continue to think on it and see if I can come up with a way to share my thoughts in a shorter, more cohesive post than the one I started to write. :)
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sirguessalot
yeah, Bramble
it seems birth and death often bring us closer to "the real" than anything else
more than beliefs, more than theology, more than doctrine
although the symbolism and mythology of Gods and demons can serve as language
for communicating things we may otherwise have no words for
baptisms, the vision quest, the sweat lodge, walking a labyrinth, etc...
all acts that embody that descent and vulnerability ...nakedness of soul
a descent into the womb again ... to heat and pressure and darkness
so that one may be "born again" by re-emerging
much of modern mainstream religious activity has removed this aspect from their menu
focusing mostly on safety and security and protection...in our past century of unprecedented terror and distraction
to consciously seek our sources of suffering, pain, darkness, shadow as a transformational practice
is almost unheard of in church...certainly mostly unheard of in twi
we wanted the way of abundance and power without paying for it
preferring to send Jesus as a scapegoat instead...rather than actually following him into the wilderness
a way of mere belief ...while thumbing our nose at actual practices
...
wishing your grand-niece and family well
Todd
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Bramble
The liturgy ofthe Catholic Mass was meant to be a journey of sorts to remember the sacrifice, combined with a sacred meal. I suspect it was one a transformative experience for those that knew and were instructed.
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cman
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22How+the+...lient=firefox-a
http://www.google.com/search?q=John+O%27Do...lient=firefox-a
http://www.google.com/search?q=David+Whyte...lient=firefox-a
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sirguessalot
came across this while sorting through files today...
...reminded me of this thread for some reason
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives: Be kind anyway.
People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered: Forgive them anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies: Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you: Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight: Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous: Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow: Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have and it may never be enough: Give the world the best you've got anyway.
You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God: It was never between you and them anyway.
...Mother Teresa
so i post this in honor of a dear friend who died yesterday
...a catholic woman who is a mother Teresa to me and many others
in grace and grit,
Todd
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cman
in honor of serving together with all peopleno matter what anyone thinks, i had to post this +ODD,it is still burning....-----------
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