I am willing to apply these points to Wierwille or anyone else without respect of persons. But applying them to myself is something that can hit pretty deeply.
And please, feel free to add at your discretion. The fellowship may be profitable.
Ps 46, I will read it.
Dear Cman,
I know what you mean when you consider these visions. However it was for them, it brought them to their knees, that's for sure.
Job's experiences were not for the faint of heart either....hmmm.
I can’t get past the loggerheads of scriptures which clearly state that God has no form or beauty, God is not a man/woman, God is not an image that we should worship it, yet there are countless scriptures in which those who say they have heard God also say they have seen God… but “no man has seen God at any time”. .
Please explain this or maybe... one can't explain this.
Maybe in one way we can see God and in another way we can't and both ways are equally the truth. Rather the truth cannot be perceived without understanding both ways of God.
So we both see God, and don't see God.
Thus the moment we think we have “seen God” the proof vanishes and we are like Fox Mulder and Dana Skully in the X Files, trying to make a case with no direct evidence... We are left speaking in tongues and babbling about the end of the world. :)
Paul was blinded by a light and “Jesus/God did it”. Paul was later abducted by aliens who called themselves Romans.
I was considering a couple of records this weekend.
One was Exodus 19 that concerns the Biblical record of Mout Sinai. This records a physical manifestaion of immense proportions that moves in one respect past a mere vision. I won't reherse the entire chapter because all of you can look at it if you wish. But this is the record that is referred to in the New Testament as so awsome that even Moses himself shook and trembled. The record itself that the all of Israel that was present was afraid too.
But for all it's awsomeness, this event still had God hidden midst all the fire and smokiness of the happening. I thought of a volcano as an item to compare with this. A volcano has the required awesomeness to compare and I have not seen one up close. But like the event records, I'm absolutely sure that I too would have been shaking in my boots.
In other scriptures this event is compared to a shaking yet to come for both heaven and earth that the Lord himself will do someday once and for all. No matter how this promised event will actually look when it happens, I'm certain that it will be hard to endure without a lot of, lot of fear and trembling for anybody without exception that sees it, period.
_____________
Exodus 33:18-23 and Exodus 34:1-8 cover the record of God showing himself to Moses as the Lord was going away from him so as to not show Moses his face.
In ch. 33 vs. 20 God says to Moses, "You cannot see my face; for no man can see my face and live." Considering what happened to the ones' who've been recorded as having seen visions from the Lord, this doesn't surprise me on bit. See God then fall over dead. THUMP!
But after the Lord showed himself to Moses in the passing, Moses face showed the reflection of it such that the people could not bear to look Moses in the face. Paul talks about this in the New Testament as an allegory. The Glory that reflected from Moses face was the ministration of the law, given to the children of Israel. But the face of God is reflected in the ministry of Christ.
In this comparison, the greater glory is given to Christ. Eternal life being the full reward. But the Law, being represented by God's glory in the passing is still of God, and a lot bigger than me.
So why then do some Christains still make their boast in Christ while doing vile and nasty things that go against God, I mean His law? THE LAW IS OF GOD TOO!!! If only Wierwille had not taught the badly misconcieved dispensational doctrine in order to hide his abuses.....SIGGGHHH.
______________
Dear Dr. WearWord,
I believe that in Christ and everything else that comes from God, that we may percieve (or see if you will) God. Jesus Christ said to his disciples that if they've seen him, they've seen the Father.
Evrybody that lives is free to seek God.
How God shows himself is up to him, because we cannot actually see him.
But I find this whole mental excersize concerning seeing God, or proving His existence that is currently popular in certain circles to be a little annoying, speaking just for myself, of course.
pardon the length...and looseness...i dont have time to reference things...
please know that while i dont quote the bible...it is still my favorite book and source of inspiration
perhaps you can see the verses you mentioned in what i wrote
or other sections of the bible
...
how i have come to understand this...
starting about mid story...a little after we are born...
we develop an ego...we first see God in our imagination
...as envisioned answers to all our raw honest questions arise within us faster than we can ask them
thus...the image of God we see is fantastic and magical..including talking plants, animals and creatures
...a subjective view of our own interior workings
we already want to resist and avoid the views of God which are coming
this is suitable for a child
but not for the leader of a religious culture
or for the president head of a nation empire
..."put away childish things"
...
when we grow up and learn our proper place in our family
our view of God changes from a purely subjective one
to an inter-subjective one
we begin to see God in the rules and stories and laws of our family
we begin to reject and avoid the silly magical views of God we once clung to
God is seen as purely human and parental
familial and cultural
...the parent of our parents
God is no longer seen in a solitary imagination
but in the shared imaginations of what is possible
mostly limited to the books and stories and legends and mythologies
passed from generation to generation to generation
remind us of our morals and values and common dreams
also causes a language and story-conflict between cultures
again...this is suitable for an older child
but not for the leader of a religious culture or corporation
or for the president head of a nation empire
..."leave the family"
...
when the family values begin to fail us
and its time to leave home and see the world on our own
our view of God changes again...we want to be objective
we reject and avoid the magical and mythical views of God of our past
and often try very hard to debunk them
while proving for ourselves what is real and true
God may no longer be as useful a word to us
...but our view of God opens to a vast undiscovered field of reality
We reach a point where we need to replace the subjective and inter-subjective views of God with a solid object
but it is not long before we realize that IT/God is simply too vast to see everything
so we settle on some specialized field of study...and go to college
here
some see God through a telescope
some see God through a microscope
the objective view of God reality is one of testing testing testing
and seeking the truth of the matter
if it were not for the tendency to want to simplify and reduce all experience to an IT
...i would settle for this view of God in a business, religious, or political leader
...
after leaving college and spending time in the real messy complicated world of people and suffering and information
we find that the objective view is not enough to navigate our experience of God/reality.
we can learn the secrets of our specialized field
and debunk all the myths and magic that we want
and try and settle on some absolute truth
but there is still something missing
...something deeper...something more authentic
our view of God becomes inter-objective
where we are more interested in the systems and networks and fields of infinite ITs
we find value in including all the many specialties...all languages...all fields
so language is seen as less solid..less reliable..less reducable to mere definitions
and more effective, honest, curious dialogue is required to compare our objective views
we enter the contextual wilderness of many jargons
variation, ambiguity, diversity, generalization...and paradox all become more valuable and valid
...process, methods, and arts all become more tangible and practical than some solid IT
ours and other's views of God are seen as constantly changing
so we trust them less and less...and are more interested in deconstructing views altogether
this is where the crusade to squash the human ego really kicks in
we see God/realities not as an IT
but The processes of life
God is seen as the rhythms and pulses of life
...
if we get far enough with our deconstruction before we die
our view of life turns ever deeper inward
beneath the layers of the body and emotion and thought
as if the more we dissolve and deconstruct...the closer we get to the soul and subtle layers of our life
we begin to see God/reality in powerful dream and vision experiences
as they relate to our own history and journey
we begin to see the values of our magical, mythical, rational and pluralist views of God
spelled out in vivid archetypes and "aha moments"
our purpose, or trajectory, or karma, in life becomes clearer and clearer
as we start re-prioritizing and crossing most everything off our "to do list"
we understand and respect all stages and states of our mortal condition
...which is why so many of the great artworks of religious history depict this
such as the christian "great chain of being"
these are the powerful visions that bring people to their knees
flashy, angelic, profound...awesome...terrifying
causes us to wake up and see and do things differently
and finally locate our wee selves on the grand map of things
scrooge, for example
except for that one little leaf ...we are almost fully naked in the garden
...
there is yet another view of God
and that is the one where God is, as described in the bible
... invisible...formless...and everywhere
and we simply "see" God as such
right now (or not)
all the previous views are seen as arising in this field of no-thing
which is seen as the cause of all effects
be still and know that i am God
be still and know that i am
be still and know
be still
be
which is why songs like this were sung by (and for) those who are dying
and at the final stages of deconstructing their life
true redemption...true salvation....not mythological, or magic
this "view of the presence of God" is the ground of spiritual practice
and the baby milk of many of the authors of the books of the bible
they devoted their lives to practicing "seeing the invisible God" in this very extra extra ordinary obvious way
using the mind to get free of the mind
using the ego to get free of the ego
using the body to get free of the body
they practiced being in the presence of God
witnessing their egos as God (who is no-thing) would witness it
self-examination = self-aware = naked and unashamed in the garden
no self-examination = weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness
they practiced seeing the presence of God
and called it things like "waking up"
and being "born again"
and "consciousness"
they discovered that we are all already always soaking wet with this invisble everywhere present God
and there is a natural profound world-shattering experience of humiliation to realize that one has been looking for a God who is always already everywhere
this is "the coming of the lord"
this is what we experience when we die
...
but the world's first wave of such discoverers then felt the world of form was an enemy of God
so there was at least one more step to take...time to come down from heaven and be useful in the world
descend descend descend
...wise as serpents (ascending)
...but harmless as doves (descending)
so after this heavenly "spiritual" state/stage...
there may be a collapse of the enmity
and a union of form and formless views
where all of the above views are included
and value of the mystery of Christ
is that is forever UNsolved
and forever BEING SOLVED
God has no opposite...
all is in God
and God is in all
this is the abundance
this is the integrity
includes a subjective view
intersubjective view
objective view
interobjective view
aperspectival (all-perspectival) and unitive view
i recall how it took a seven-eyed seven-horned lamb to open all the seals on the book of life
...
to add...
the craziness of life also gives us peaks into any of the above views oF God
but if these peaks dont push us into the next step of our ego-trip
we will interpret the experiences from the stage we are at
this is why one can have a profound visionary dreamlike aha experience
and then claim it is a message to me to start an exclusive religion
like when the unborn flower screams "Lod have mercy! Please kill me, crack me wide open...and free me from this seed!"
...
sorry if i interrupted your thread, jeffsjo
...the direction you were asking in just happens to be one my passions
"to see God, or not see God..."
is certainly an important line of inquiry
...
in general...it seems that a large part of christian theology (currently and historically) concludes that only special rare people get to "see God"
and all or most of those special people are typically dead
meanwhile, there is also a large part of christianity (currently and historically) whose theology includes actually practicing "seeing God"
....as ordinary and vital as eating breakfast
and due to a theological permission to "see God"...the latter part of christianity has been free to develop effective arts, methods, disciplines, and exercises for actually doing so
...while the theology of the former is simply not able to ...mostly for not believing it is possible...and fear of demonic deception and such...even ethnocentric prejudices
...
the clearest, starkest difference between the two general attitudes...
...one is primarily interested in belief and finding a solid textual interpretation
...the other is primarily interested in experiencing transformation by way of actual living practices
(which the former tends to want to avoid, or dismiss as invalid, reserve for special people who are dead, etc...
...which seems natural, perhaps especially because of the influence of the "me generation" on christian thought and practice and avoidance of lineage and the abundance of bad examples of organized religion.)
the former is more or less limited to a small handful of stories and words and lives of those who have died...starting with the books
...the latter is living and experiencing what was written about...comparing it to the ancient records in the books
...
honestly...how many so-called christian teachers these days not only show us the hows and whys one might sit in silent prayer and fasting for 9 days
...but have actually done it themselves before claiming interpretive authority of Pentecost and Jesus and such?!?
(and not the magical "thank you God for giving me a parking spot" kind of prayer, either...but the "who am i? why am i here? where am i going?" and "what is the nature of suffering? how can i help? and how do i want to leave this world? " kind of prayer life)
btw...from what i understand...its not til around the 3rd day (if one makes it that far) that the body and mind experiences the first dramatic shift in self-awareness and insight
So in my mind this one thing is clear, any claims of seeing God need to be followed by truly good behavior otherwise we all have the right to say, "Hey, he's full of it."
indeed...agreed
real inner transformation to higher "stages of faith" if you will
whether brought about by practice...or some accident of grace (such as tragedy and loss)
is a one way trip
like having a seal broken...where there is no going back
one's "new heart and perspective" simultaeneously frees us from certain prisons
but also binds our hands ...where we are simply not able to act certain ways any more
"ruined" is a playful metaphor i have heard for this kind of change
or like "i wish i could be plugged back into the matrix and forget"
but motivations and priorities and morals shift quite radically..and irreversibly
and some sense of this is evident (or not) in the lives (and words) of those who make (or have made) such claims
whether the person is living or dead
with the opening of one's heart and mind to God
the circle and scope and bounds of one's care and concern keeps expanding exponentially
as does the circle and scope and bounds of one's view of "where God is at"
Don't worry one bit about derailing "my" thread as you put it. I've enjoyed reading your posts too. Your style of prose bears more consideration, for me anyhow, than quick responses.
Hard to tell? I guess there is certainly a difference between thinking that I'm clear and actually being understood. That is what I like so much about this venue. Words can be savored and consider fully. And there is always an open door for requesting clarification. IMO in real life people often entrench their positions and somehow never manage to clear up misunderstandings.
What I like about your posts is most simple. A lot of the things that you say bring scripture to mind. For me that is my reference point.
For instance, Paul preached to the Athenians that God was near all of us and free to be sought after. But he considered the end result of seeking Him that fell into the category of a commandment a true turning to him, or repentance if you will. HHHMMM
While your posts seem to focus on the human condition more than my intent with this thread the points that you make about the human condition still seem valid and apply to this thread just as much as my posts do.
The points about the developemental stages in your first post I'm still enjoying to consider for instance. I find the scriptural references in the Gospels encouraging childlike faith a tremendous consideration. And what the Lord said about God revealing his might to little children instead of the prophets and kings being a good thing to God is an awesome example of facing what kind of faith truly blesses the Father.
Yeah, I know that there are paradoxes too sirguessalot.
Some seem to want to discredit the scriptures by pointing out the paradoxes.
But it seems to me that if I consider the points that seem to be paradoxical within the context of the topic at hand and the context the paradoxes seem to work themselves out.
There certainly is a good time for childlike faith and a good time for not being foolish children.
I think that it is so cool that God seems to require both mind sets as a part of mature Christianity. Pehaps that in and of itself is paradoxical. But I like how it seems to work for me at times. The fact that it is a paradox in and of itself becomes interesting but perhaps irrellavent because each mindset at the right time is essential.
For each situation, where does the rubber meet the road?....perhaps.
I've scanned, but not read deeply the posts in this thread (except the first ones), so I'm sorry if these verses have been mentioned already, but I just read them & thought they pertained to the discussion here.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
So, yes they were afraid, but Jesus told them not to be, so while it is human nature to be afraid at the presence of God, apparently, we don't have to be.
I think one of my main points on this thread is that God is soooo awsome that we can't see him without realizing how awesome he is and realize also that we are not. This IMO is a fearful type of experience, to face anything up close that is tremendously bigger than we are.
But as if in these visions on this thread, the Lord gets us up, comforts us, and loves us we will get through the experience.
Sometimes I think that Christians may miss out on certain things by how they think of them. For instance, there may be times when it is important to let a Christian know that they have the right to be loved, because Christ loved us first, and as such we don't need to be afraid of God. I get that.
But when we actually look at the EXPERIENCE of seeing the Lord as recorded in the scriptures, whether in a vision or a physical phenomenon they have a history of being nigh impossible to physically bear. I think that opposed to Wierwille's version of "The Fear of the Lord" this is a good consideration.
Sometimes I think that Christians may miss out on certain things by how they think of them. For instance, there may be times when it is important to let a Christian know that they have the right to be loved, because Christ loved us first, and as such we don't need to be afraid of God. I get that.
But when we actually look at the EXPERIENCE of seeing the Lord as recorded in the scriptures, whether in a vision or a physical phenomenon they have a history of being nigh impossible to physically bear. I think that opposed to Wierwille's version of "The Fear of the Lord" this is a good consideration.
JEFF
Ah, I see how serious your question/quest is. Wierwille opened more than consideration for me. God and I have touched from time to time. I've never been afraid of Him. Well, that needs qualification. I've had to say that's enough - that's all I can take. He's always been okay with that. I guess, I mean I know he would have wanted me to go further, but I couldn't /wouldn't. Graciously, he still allowed me to hang out at the level of revelation he granted & I accepted. He didn't shoot me down because I didn't feel like I could go further. Actually, I asked him to let me hang out there in that degree of his presence even though I knew he wanted to take me higher. He was gracious enough to accommodate me. Is this making sense?
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leafytwiglet
Sits waiting to hear more verses..
The ones I can think of in my limited knowledge of the bible include Moses
and Paul.
Well Adam and Eve.
and Abraham and hmmmm.
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JeffSjo
o.k. Leafy. I'm a slow typer.
I hope this one works for you.
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leafytwiglet
Jeff excellent job
these bring some light to the whole gas pump story too don't they.
And my most favorite verse I hope you don't mind me tacking this one on to your sharing.
BE still and KNOW that I am GOD.Psalm 46:10
When My life is in turmoil I always think of that verse and stop and breath and pray to God.
IT is a wonderful Psalm Read the whole thing if you get a chance.
I am off to read your verses and some context..
Thanks for these
Leafy
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cman
Cool Topic JeffSjo.
Other interesting sayings and words come to mind as well.
Showed me. Or shew in the kjv.
Appeared is a good one, appear, saw, see, seen.
I do believe 'vision' is not like a movie or something.
But actually real and present. An opening.
Vision seems to say different things, depending on the person I suppose.
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JeffSjo
Dear Leafytwiglet,
I am willing to apply these points to Wierwille or anyone else without respect of persons. But applying them to myself is something that can hit pretty deeply.
And please, feel free to add at your discretion. The fellowship may be profitable.
Ps 46, I will read it.
Dear Cman,
I know what you mean when you consider these visions. However it was for them, it brought them to their knees, that's for sure.
Job's experiences were not for the faint of heart either....hmmm.
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DrWearWord
I can’t get past the loggerheads of scriptures which clearly state that God has no form or beauty, God is not a man/woman, God is not an image that we should worship it, yet there are countless scriptures in which those who say they have heard God also say they have seen God… but “no man has seen God at any time”. .
Please explain this or maybe... one can't explain this.
Maybe in one way we can see God and in another way we can't and both ways are equally the truth. Rather the truth cannot be perceived without understanding both ways of God.
So we both see God, and don't see God.
Thus the moment we think we have “seen God” the proof vanishes and we are like Fox Mulder and Dana Skully in the X Files, trying to make a case with no direct evidence... We are left speaking in tongues and babbling about the end of the world. :)
Paul was blinded by a light and “Jesus/God did it”. Paul was later abducted by aliens who called themselves Romans.
“Dig a little deeper” .
Will/can we ever REALLY see God?
I WANT TO BELIEVE
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
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JeffSjo
I was considering a couple of records this weekend.
One was Exodus 19 that concerns the Biblical record of Mout Sinai. This records a physical manifestaion of immense proportions that moves in one respect past a mere vision. I won't reherse the entire chapter because all of you can look at it if you wish. But this is the record that is referred to in the New Testament as so awsome that even Moses himself shook and trembled. The record itself that the all of Israel that was present was afraid too.
But for all it's awsomeness, this event still had God hidden midst all the fire and smokiness of the happening. I thought of a volcano as an item to compare with this. A volcano has the required awesomeness to compare and I have not seen one up close. But like the event records, I'm absolutely sure that I too would have been shaking in my boots.
In other scriptures this event is compared to a shaking yet to come for both heaven and earth that the Lord himself will do someday once and for all. No matter how this promised event will actually look when it happens, I'm certain that it will be hard to endure without a lot of, lot of fear and trembling for anybody without exception that sees it, period.
_____________
Exodus 33:18-23 and Exodus 34:1-8 cover the record of God showing himself to Moses as the Lord was going away from him so as to not show Moses his face.
In ch. 33 vs. 20 God says to Moses, "You cannot see my face; for no man can see my face and live." Considering what happened to the ones' who've been recorded as having seen visions from the Lord, this doesn't surprise me on bit. See God then fall over dead. THUMP!
But after the Lord showed himself to Moses in the passing, Moses face showed the reflection of it such that the people could not bear to look Moses in the face. Paul talks about this in the New Testament as an allegory. The Glory that reflected from Moses face was the ministration of the law, given to the children of Israel. But the face of God is reflected in the ministry of Christ.
In this comparison, the greater glory is given to Christ. Eternal life being the full reward. But the Law, being represented by God's glory in the passing is still of God, and a lot bigger than me.
So why then do some Christains still make their boast in Christ while doing vile and nasty things that go against God, I mean His law? THE LAW IS OF GOD TOO!!! If only Wierwille had not taught the badly misconcieved dispensational doctrine in order to hide his abuses.....SIGGGHHH.
______________
Dear Dr. WearWord,
I believe that in Christ and everything else that comes from God, that we may percieve (or see if you will) God. Jesus Christ said to his disciples that if they've seen him, they've seen the Father.
Evrybody that lives is free to seek God.
How God shows himself is up to him, because we cannot actually see him.
But I find this whole mental excersize concerning seeing God, or proving His existence that is currently popular in certain circles to be a little annoying, speaking just for myself, of course.
(edited for grammar)
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sirguessalot
great topic, jeffsjo
pardon the length...and looseness...i dont have time to reference things...
please know that while i dont quote the bible...it is still my favorite book and source of inspiration
perhaps you can see the verses you mentioned in what i wrote
or other sections of the bible
...
how i have come to understand this...
starting about mid story...a little after we are born...
we develop an ego...we first see God in our imagination
...as envisioned answers to all our raw honest questions arise within us faster than we can ask them
thus...the image of God we see is fantastic and magical..including talking plants, animals and creatures
...a subjective view of our own interior workings
we already want to resist and avoid the views of God which are coming
this is suitable for a child
but not for the leader of a religious culture
or for the president head of a nation empire
..."put away childish things"
...
when we grow up and learn our proper place in our family
our view of God changes from a purely subjective one
to an inter-subjective one
we begin to see God in the rules and stories and laws of our family
we begin to reject and avoid the silly magical views of God we once clung to
God is seen as purely human and parental
familial and cultural
...the parent of our parents
God is no longer seen in a solitary imagination
but in the shared imaginations of what is possible
mostly limited to the books and stories and legends and mythologies
passed from generation to generation to generation
remind us of our morals and values and common dreams
also causes a language and story-conflict between cultures
again...this is suitable for an older child
but not for the leader of a religious culture or corporation
or for the president head of a nation empire
..."leave the family"
...
when the family values begin to fail us
and its time to leave home and see the world on our own
our view of God changes again...we want to be objective
we reject and avoid the magical and mythical views of God of our past
and often try very hard to debunk them
while proving for ourselves what is real and true
God may no longer be as useful a word to us
...but our view of God opens to a vast undiscovered field of reality
We reach a point where we need to replace the subjective and inter-subjective views of God with a solid object
but it is not long before we realize that IT/God is simply too vast to see everything
so we settle on some specialized field of study...and go to college
here
some see God through a telescope
some see God through a microscope
the objective view of God reality is one of testing testing testing
and seeking the truth of the matter
if it were not for the tendency to want to simplify and reduce all experience to an IT
...i would settle for this view of God in a business, religious, or political leader
...
after leaving college and spending time in the real messy complicated world of people and suffering and information
we find that the objective view is not enough to navigate our experience of God/reality.
we can learn the secrets of our specialized field
and debunk all the myths and magic that we want
and try and settle on some absolute truth
but there is still something missing
...something deeper...something more authentic
our view of God becomes inter-objective
where we are more interested in the systems and networks and fields of infinite ITs
we find value in including all the many specialties...all languages...all fields
so language is seen as less solid..less reliable..less reducable to mere definitions
and more effective, honest, curious dialogue is required to compare our objective views
we enter the contextual wilderness of many jargons
variation, ambiguity, diversity, generalization...and paradox all become more valuable and valid
...process, methods, and arts all become more tangible and practical than some solid IT
ours and other's views of God are seen as constantly changing
so we trust them less and less...and are more interested in deconstructing views altogether
this is where the crusade to squash the human ego really kicks in
we see God/realities not as an IT
but The processes of life
God is seen as the rhythms and pulses of life
...
if we get far enough with our deconstruction before we die
our view of life turns ever deeper inward
beneath the layers of the body and emotion and thought
as if the more we dissolve and deconstruct...the closer we get to the soul and subtle layers of our life
we begin to see God/reality in powerful dream and vision experiences
as they relate to our own history and journey
we begin to see the values of our magical, mythical, rational and pluralist views of God
spelled out in vivid archetypes and "aha moments"
our purpose, or trajectory, or karma, in life becomes clearer and clearer
as we start re-prioritizing and crossing most everything off our "to do list"
we understand and respect all stages and states of our mortal condition
...which is why so many of the great artworks of religious history depict this
such as the christian "great chain of being"
these are the powerful visions that bring people to their knees
flashy, angelic, profound...awesome...terrifying
causes us to wake up and see and do things differently
and finally locate our wee selves on the grand map of things
scrooge, for example
except for that one little leaf ...we are almost fully naked in the garden
...
there is yet another view of God
and that is the one where God is, as described in the bible
... invisible...formless...and everywhere
and we simply "see" God as such
right now (or not)
all the previous views are seen as arising in this field of no-thing
which is seen as the cause of all effects
be still and know that i am God
be still and know that i am
be still and know
be still
be
which is why songs like this were sung by (and for) those who are dying
and at the final stages of deconstructing their life
true redemption...true salvation....not mythological, or magic
this "view of the presence of God" is the ground of spiritual practice
and the baby milk of many of the authors of the books of the bible
they devoted their lives to practicing "seeing the invisible God" in this very extra extra ordinary obvious way
using the mind to get free of the mind
using the ego to get free of the ego
using the body to get free of the body
they practiced being in the presence of God
witnessing their egos as God (who is no-thing) would witness it
self-examination = self-aware = naked and unashamed in the garden
no self-examination = weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness
they practiced seeing the presence of God
and called it things like "waking up"
and being "born again"
and "consciousness"
they discovered that we are all already always soaking wet with this invisble everywhere present God
and there is a natural profound world-shattering experience of humiliation to realize that one has been looking for a God who is always already everywhere
this is "the coming of the lord"
this is what we experience when we die
...
but the world's first wave of such discoverers then felt the world of form was an enemy of God
so there was at least one more step to take...time to come down from heaven and be useful in the world
descend descend descend
...wise as serpents (ascending)
...but harmless as doves (descending)
so after this heavenly "spiritual" state/stage...
there may be a collapse of the enmity
and a union of form and formless views
where all of the above views are included
and value of the mystery of Christ
is that is forever UNsolved
and forever BEING SOLVED
God has no opposite...
all is in God
and God is in all
this is the abundance
this is the integrity
includes a subjective view
intersubjective view
objective view
interobjective view
aperspectival (all-perspectival) and unitive view
i recall how it took a seven-eyed seven-horned lamb to open all the seals on the book of life
...
to add...
the craziness of life also gives us peaks into any of the above views oF God
but if these peaks dont push us into the next step of our ego-trip
we will interpret the experiences from the stage we are at
this is why one can have a profound visionary dreamlike aha experience
and then claim it is a message to me to start an exclusive religion
...
thanks again for the thread topic
i'll be around
all space and grace
Todd
edited to add...
...and Godspeed
:B)
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JeffSjo
Aaaawwww Sirguessalot,
The Godspeed was cool. All space and grace seems fine too, I guessalittletoo. :B)
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cman
Nice sirg,
Spanning a lifetime with thousands of generations.
Could be why so many years are recorded in earlier lives to see.
A thousand years as one day.
A century in an hour.
A decade in a moment.
The expanse between your words used is deep.
Yet somehow we must move on and do.
need the space and the grace
seen when mercy has done it's work.....
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sirguessalot
yeah, cman...mercy indeed
like when the unborn flower screams "Lod have mercy! Please kill me, crack me wide open...and free me from this seed!"
...
sorry if i interrupted your thread, jeffsjo
...the direction you were asking in just happens to be one my passions
"to see God, or not see God..."
is certainly an important line of inquiry
...
in general...it seems that a large part of christian theology (currently and historically) concludes that only special rare people get to "see God"
and all or most of those special people are typically dead
meanwhile, there is also a large part of christianity (currently and historically) whose theology includes actually practicing "seeing God"
....as ordinary and vital as eating breakfast
and due to a theological permission to "see God"...the latter part of christianity has been free to develop effective arts, methods, disciplines, and exercises for actually doing so
...while the theology of the former is simply not able to ...mostly for not believing it is possible...and fear of demonic deception and such...even ethnocentric prejudices
...
the clearest, starkest difference between the two general attitudes...
...one is primarily interested in belief and finding a solid textual interpretation
...the other is primarily interested in experiencing transformation by way of actual living practices
(which the former tends to want to avoid, or dismiss as invalid, reserve for special people who are dead, etc...
...which seems natural, perhaps especially because of the influence of the "me generation" on christian thought and practice and avoidance of lineage and the abundance of bad examples of organized religion.)
the former is more or less limited to a small handful of stories and words and lives of those who have died...starting with the books
...the latter is living and experiencing what was written about...comparing it to the ancient records in the books
...
honestly...how many so-called christian teachers these days not only show us the hows and whys one might sit in silent prayer and fasting for 9 days
...but have actually done it themselves before claiming interpretive authority of Pentecost and Jesus and such?!?
(and not the magical "thank you God for giving me a parking spot" kind of prayer, either...but the "who am i? why am i here? where am i going?" and "what is the nature of suffering? how can i help? and how do i want to leave this world? " kind of prayer life)
btw...from what i understand...its not til around the 3rd day (if one makes it that far) that the body and mind experiences the first dramatic shift in self-awareness and insight
...
anyway...
Godspeed again
dont forget to push
and breath
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sirguessalot
indeed...agreed
real inner transformation to higher "stages of faith" if you will
whether brought about by practice...or some accident of grace (such as tragedy and loss)
is a one way trip
like having a seal broken...where there is no going back
one's "new heart and perspective" simultaeneously frees us from certain prisons
but also binds our hands ...where we are simply not able to act certain ways any more
"ruined" is a playful metaphor i have heard for this kind of change
or like "i wish i could be plugged back into the matrix and forget"
but motivations and priorities and morals shift quite radically..and irreversibly
and some sense of this is evident (or not) in the lives (and words) of those who make (or have made) such claims
whether the person is living or dead
with the opening of one's heart and mind to God
the circle and scope and bounds of one's care and concern keeps expanding exponentially
as does the circle and scope and bounds of one's view of "where God is at"
and from where "God's voice emanates."
from self
to family
to tribe
to culture
to nation
to humanity
to all living things
to simply ALL
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JeffSjo
Dear Sirguessalot,
Don't worry one bit about derailing "my" thread as you put it. I've enjoyed reading your posts too. Your style of prose bears more consideration, for me anyhow, than quick responses.
BTW, push and breath?....hmm. :blink:
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sirguessalot
thanks jeff...good to know
and yeah...so "push and breathe" was like a playful metaphorical wishing "Godspeed" on one's path of transformation..wherever it may lead
...like giving birth to, and being born into, new stages of faith
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JeffSjo
Yeah, I caught the birthing reference. It sounds so good when you say it though.
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sirguessalot
haha...thanks for letting me know
kinda hard to tell from the emoticons
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JeffSjo
Dear Sirguessalot,
Hard to tell? I guess there is certainly a difference between thinking that I'm clear and actually being understood. That is what I like so much about this venue. Words can be savored and consider fully. And there is always an open door for requesting clarification. IMO in real life people often entrench their positions and somehow never manage to clear up misunderstandings.
What I like about your posts is most simple. A lot of the things that you say bring scripture to mind. For me that is my reference point.
For instance, Paul preached to the Athenians that God was near all of us and free to be sought after. But he considered the end result of seeking Him that fell into the category of a commandment a true turning to him, or repentance if you will. HHHMMM
While your posts seem to focus on the human condition more than my intent with this thread the points that you make about the human condition still seem valid and apply to this thread just as much as my posts do.
The points about the developemental stages in your first post I'm still enjoying to consider for instance. I find the scriptural references in the Gospels encouraging childlike faith a tremendous consideration. And what the Lord said about God revealing his might to little children instead of the prophets and kings being a good thing to God is an awesome example of facing what kind of faith truly blesses the Father.
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sirguessalot
thanks for the response, jeff
...not much time to post today
it also seems worthy of noting how Jesus encouraged both...
...having childlike faith, as well as "putting away childish things"
a lot of paradox like that in the bible
...and life
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JeffSjo
Yeah, I know that there are paradoxes too sirguessalot.
Some seem to want to discredit the scriptures by pointing out the paradoxes.
But it seems to me that if I consider the points that seem to be paradoxical within the context of the topic at hand and the context the paradoxes seem to work themselves out.
There certainly is a good time for childlike faith and a good time for not being foolish children.
I think that it is so cool that God seems to require both mind sets as a part of mature Christianity. Pehaps that in and of itself is paradoxical. But I like how it seems to work for me at times. The fact that it is a paradox in and of itself becomes interesting but perhaps irrellavent because each mindset at the right time is essential.
For each situation, where does the rubber meet the road?....perhaps.
Perceiving this and seeing God in it is good.
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sirguessalot
all well said, jeff
such paradoxes may even be an expression of "opposite goods"
as a way of giving us cardinal points for navigation through life's wildernesses
...
the admonition to be childlike reminds me of how, in developmental psychology, for example
once we outgrow our subjective view of God (lets call it "childlike")
and enter intersubjective ("cultural") or objective ("logical") or interobjective ("social") stages
...if we reject the role of subjectivity, we may lack our ability to find personal meaning in life
our capacity to wish, want, imagine and wonder is developed (or not) during those early years of life
augmenting (or not) all later stages
we may belong to a culture and find a communal good
we may be able to prove what is true and real and factual
we may be able to understand systems and processes
but we cannot find much beauty or awe in any of them
one may see the endless nesting contexts of scripture (and life)
but see them as endless layers of deception and delusion
...while another sees them as endless layers of truths and beauty
testing and purifying our faith 7x (from "faith to faith")
involves carrying forward the lessons of each stage
by swallowing them in later stages
not rejecting them
thus, the injustice of injuring a child's magical sense of subjectivity
...because we grow into cruel tyrants and adults suffering from meaninglessness
which causes A LOT of suffering in the world
if i do not find life meaningful
...i may assume there is none to be found by anyone else either
...
yet...the admonition to leave childish things behind reminds me of how, for example
as we become adults, if we do not differentiate between our subjective and objective view of God
we simply cannot tell the difference between exterior fact and interior fantasy
if we do not differentiate between our intersubjective and interobjective views of God
we simply cant tell the difference between exterior facts and interior fantasies
...
overall point
which is what i feel you are pointing to as well
is that each stage of our "God-view" is important
but if we are wounded at those stages
and the wound remains as we age
and our life keeps growing around it...casting a shadow across everything else
healing our view of God involves going backward and simply untangling that knot
...not cutting it out
...
somewhat playfully...all this makes me wonder if Christ looked forward in time and studied western psychology...also
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Tom
I've scanned, but not read deeply the posts in this thread (except the first ones), so I'm sorry if these verses have been mentioned already, but I just read them & thought they pertained to the discussion here.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
So, yes they were afraid, but Jesus told them not to be, so while it is human nature to be afraid at the presence of God, apparently, we don't have to be.
Tom
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JeffSjo
I hear you Tom,
I think one of my main points on this thread is that God is soooo awsome that we can't see him without realizing how awesome he is and realize also that we are not. This IMO is a fearful type of experience, to face anything up close that is tremendously bigger than we are.
But as if in these visions on this thread, the Lord gets us up, comforts us, and loves us we will get through the experience.
JEFF
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JeffSjo
Dear Tom,
Sometimes I think that Christians may miss out on certain things by how they think of them. For instance, there may be times when it is important to let a Christian know that they have the right to be loved, because Christ loved us first, and as such we don't need to be afraid of God. I get that.
But when we actually look at the EXPERIENCE of seeing the Lord as recorded in the scriptures, whether in a vision or a physical phenomenon they have a history of being nigh impossible to physically bear. I think that opposed to Wierwille's version of "The Fear of the Lord" this is a good consideration.
JEFF
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Tom
Ah, I see how serious your question/quest is. Wierwille opened more than consideration for me. God and I have touched from time to time. I've never been afraid of Him. Well, that needs qualification. I've had to say that's enough - that's all I can take. He's always been okay with that. I guess, I mean I know he would have wanted me to go further, but I couldn't /wouldn't. Graciously, he still allowed me to hang out at the level of revelation he granted & I accepted. He didn't shoot me down because I didn't feel like I could go further. Actually, I asked him to let me hang out there in that degree of his presence even though I knew he wanted to take me higher. He was gracious enough to accommodate me. Is this making sense?
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