I apologize P-Mosh. . . silly me. . . the author is Ravi Zacharias.
I never felt any emptiness by abandoning Christianity, in fact, I felt freedom. While in TWI or in any of the other churches I've been to, it all felt like nonsense to me. What the author is saying here is not based off of anything that I've heard, seen, or felt. Especially that leaving religion did not cause me to abandon any morals, although it did alter my morals in the sense that some things that I thought were "sin" before I no longer view as a bad thing.
I appreciate your position. . . but sometimes stereotypes CAN derive from some truth. The idea of the angry atheist did not spring from the minds of cunning Christians.
The author here tries to state indirectly that if morals exist, then one individual must define those morals. I disagree with those assumptions. If you, as a religious person, can temporarily ignore your belief in god, you can possibly come up with explanations for things like this. What the author says about "evolutionary ethics" are things that make sense, because the "morals" we have are just a fancy word for behaviors, which animals also have to a lesser degree.
Mr P-Mosh, we have a mind and reasoning abilities animals do not have. I as a thinking human would have to strectch the bounds of incredulity to come up with an explanation outside of God for the reality of moral law. Morals are much more than a fancy word for behaviors. . . . they are a value judgement on behaviors. Just consider. . . . you have made several value judgements in your post. Where does that come from? Arbritrary ideals and standards? No, it comes from a moral code or law. You as a child, more than likely had an innate sense of justice. . . children often do. Honest little creatures. . . . are they not? Before we are ever tarnished and tried. . . we know what is right. . . it is as the bible says. . . written on our hearts.
This doesn't make sense, as the author seems to indicate that people are unable to evaluate their own lives and direction. I disagree, and feel that I gained more control over my life as an atheist.
We are never without control over our lives in the manner in which you imply. . . we are free-will creatures. Even a ravaged body with a sound mind retains control over ones thoughts. Unless one is highly unstable. . . . Choosing willingly to submit to something out of love is much different than than being coerced into a behavior. Freely giving my life to Christ is much different than being hog tied to an altar. I hope you appreciate the difference. It is what I have learned post TWI, and I think I have now gained a real sense in where a non believer post TWI is coming from.
I disagree with this too. Morality can be abstract in many ways, and it is highly subjective. For example, if you own a store and someone robs you to go buy drugs, we universally condemn that action as immoral. However, what if you own a store and a mother living in poverty steals some baby food from you to feed her starving infant, it is viewed as a morally grey area because her circumstances led her to do this or risk the death of her child. There are many factors, and in many cases morals are loose.
You JUST made a moral judgement. I have to tell you that it is not a difficult one to make. . . you and I both know that the moral thing would be for the person with the food to freely give to the one without. Is it moral to withold food from a starving human being? There is nothing subjective in the reality of the moral right, but in the interpretation. However, without that moral absolute there is no wrong way to deal with a starving person. There is no absolute. Where does that absolute come from?
I disagree, and think all people have a value, and that morals do not require a perspective of perfection. While we may not be able to always live according to our morals in practice, we usually can determine when we've crossed the line. We don't need any supernatural entities for that, just our own common sense.
Again, where does that common sense come from? My sense of right and yours may differ. . . there are very bad places in this world, where very bad people do bad things with impunity. No sense of shame. . . they have their own moral code. . . you would probably weep if we discussed what some men are capable of. . . their common sense does not stop them. . . but we know what they do is evil. . . how? Is your common sense better than theirs? That is a moral judgement. You have a point of reference.
That is ridiculous. Our instincts alone tell us that mutilating babies for entertainment is wrong. There is no moral debate, not because of religion, but because it is against nature. Our brains, the result of millions of years of evolution, have caused us to develop a pack mentality much like wolves or monkeys. We have an interest in protecting our fellow species members because that means they will be more likely to protect us, which all occurs at a subconscious level. Sure, we all want to be individualistic too, but that is a result of our complex minds, which try to balance selfishness and altruism our entire lives.
Really? Our instincts alone tell us mutilating babies is wrong? What constitutes a baby? What does your instinct tell you there? There are places in this world where men can go sexually violate a 6 month old baby. Is their instinct faulty? Pack animals and protection. . . it goes much deeper than that I think. . . people give their lives for others. . . people spend their time, talent. money, and lives to serve those in need. No, sorry, it runs much deeper than that. . . we are capable of great love for our fellow man. . . an understanding of the value of human life as precious. . . Where does that come from?
I've always found the argument that Christians make like this one to be fascinating. Think about it -- deep down, if you found out somehow that there was no god looking over your shoulder, would you suddenly be ok with murdering people or stealing? I don't think you would. Whether you believe that it occurred as the result of a god or gods making your brain this way, or whether you believe it was a natural process of evolution, all animals including mankind have a sense of "morals" embedded in who we are. We know right from wrong naturally, and those that don't are suffering from mental illness and labeled sociopaths. You have to distinguish the understanding of right and wrong from the practical implementation of it as well, as all of us do things we know are wrong, while finding ways to justify it in our own minds.
And so the bible tells us. . . . we do have that law written upon our hearts.
I hope this helps you get some insight into my way of thinking about morals, although I think I spent more time arguing against the view of what you quoted rather than explaining my own view of things.
Thanks, and just for the record. . . I like your sense of justice and morality. . . it peers out from your politics!! LOL
... atheists try to dance around the reality of a moral law ...
I just love faith-based responses like this, as it clearly demonstrates a total ignorance that many theists have re: atheists. I too, used to have such a viewpoint re: atheists. ... Until I actually _meet_ and _got_ _to_ _know_ the aforementioned 'immoral'/'amoral' atheists, and something called reality gave me a serious bitchslap upside the head!
I know that P-Mosh dealt with this lame issue already, but I felt I just had to respond (Yet Again) to this loon idea that atheists somehow lack a moral center and/or are fighting/dancing against any 'reality for a moral law', and that for no better reason than that they reject the idea/concept of God. And throwing out Bible Scriptures to ((cough)) 'prove' this does absolutely _nothing_ to make real said loon idea.
There are many times when blind loyalty to religious beliefs fail you, and this is clearly one of them.
I will start a thread soon and maybe we can look at Romans. . . . seems a good place to take a peek from a Jewish perspective. Thanks for your answer and
hope when you get a chance you can look at what I said about what it means to follow Jesus. I am hardly perfect or an expert at it. . . but I keep on trying.I
I have ALWAYS wanted to ask something here, but vitriolic responses have often precluded me from posing this, but, since I have your ear for a moment, and know you to be willing to honestly consider.. . . . . .
When one turns to another faith after claiming Christianity as their faith for sometimes as long as 20 years. . . . how, can one say, with real intellectual honesty, that they reject the concept of true and opposing false believers within Christianity?
Especially as the bible has specific verses exclaiming Christ ability to keep us? That no one is able to snatch us from His hand. . . . even us. The bible tells us Jesus will leave the 99 sheep of His own flock to find and carry back on His shoulders the one who has wandered away?
One of the places where God is portrayed as a woman through a parable is where the woman who goes through every inch of her house to find the smallest coin while not regarding the riches she already posseses.
Our faith in reality rest completely in His ability. Faith is a gift and if it is truly from God, it is a perfect gift. It would be one that is able to acomplish that which is its purpose. The bible exclaims the abilty of God to accomplish His purpose.
Jesus own words. . . . depart----I never knew you. . . to cries of Lord, Lord,. . . did I not. . . in your name. Give us a glimpse of the opposing true and false believer. . . . don't they?
Yet, I have read and seen a pluralistic or relativist debate ensue about Christianity as a faith in the most voracious manner. This, by the very same people who faked it for years. Debating, while being a living illustration of the opposing viewpoint just strikes me as ironic, does it not strike you that way?
I have always wondered here on these forums. . . . about this very thing. It would also not be a stretch to surmise that there are specific things which make one a Christian. If, there are. . . . we may not have had them in TWI. Most have gone their own way, haven't we? As a person claiming Christianity as a one time faith, but now having moved on to something else. . . one could deduce that the element missing to allow this. . . could be a relationship with Jesus and knowing Him enough to hear His voice and causing Him to come collect us. . . . should we stray. No?
Garth,
One can accuse Dr. Zacharias of many things. . . ignorance is not one of them. I appreciate your response and also the thoughtfulness behind it. . . . but these issues of morality and God have spawned Nietzche's uberman. . . a frustrated comment by Dawkins to the effect. . . . We must deny the existence of evil to win this argument. . . . quickly danced around while backtracking. . . . and Bertrand Russell saying in a debate with Fredrick Copplestone that he chose good and bad based on a "feeling".
I think his comments were based on debates and study. . . . experience with atheists. Many atheists are very honest that this paticular point is a difficult one while denying the existence of God.
To me it is not a lame argument, but a probing and thought provoking question. . . .
I appreciate your position. . . but sometimes stereotypes CAN derive from some truth. The idea of the angry atheist did not spring from the minds of cunning Christians.
Perhaps, but I view it as a form of bigotry, much like how black women are stereotyped as the "angry black women." Having been good friends with African-Americans, including women, I saw the bigotry they had to deal with every day, and how they are treated differently, which basically makes it happen for real. When someone is treated badly, they get angry, and if people ridicule or dismiss them, it just makes it worse. The same applies to atheists. We are usually treated badly by the public at large, and former president Bush (the dad, not the son) questioned whether athiests should even be allowed to be U.S. citizens. While I'm not one to make a big deal out of discrimination, I can see very clearly why so many atheists get angry. We are constantly told, especially by some Christians, that we are untrustworthy, evil, childish, delusional, etc. and we are not treated with respect. Note that I'm not accusing you of that here, just trying to explain why atheists get angry. It's sort of like being the only kid that doesn't believe in Santa Claus and the other kids pick on you as a result.
Mr P-Mosh, we have a mind and reasoning abilities animals do not have.
We are more advanced, but that doesn't necessarily mean that basic emotions and instinctual values are not present in other animals. Watch how gorillas take care of orphaned baby gorillas that are a part of their troop. There is no real reason for them to do it if it isn't their baby, yet they do. Watch how elephants visit the bones of their dead family members and caress the skulls and such in remembrance. Animals do exhibit a lot of behavior that we find in ourselves like this, and a lot of our behaviors are not as advanced as we think. I'm not an expert in sociology, but a lot of what they have discovered makes it very easy for them to predict what people will do, just as we can predict animal behaviors.
I as a thinking human would have to strectch the bounds of incredulity to come up with an explanation outside of God for the reality of moral law.
This is your opinion, but I still disagree with it. Perhaps religion explains it best for you, but it doesn't work for me and many others. For me it seems a huge stretch to try to put religious beliefs into a natural process that in my opinion, doesn't need the supernatural to function.
Morals are much more than a fancy word for behaviors. . . . they are a value judgement on behaviors. Just consider. . . . you have made several value judgements in your post. Where does that come from? Arbritrary ideals and standards? No, it comes from a moral code or law.
They are arbitrary ideals and standards, and morals change. In the past it was considered morally acceptable for things like 40 year old men to marry 13 year old girls. Today we consider that morally reprehensible. In the past, it was considered immoral for women to show their ankles in public in our culture, now pretty much everyone is ok with it outside of some strict baptists and the Mennonites. In the past, slavery was considered to be morally acceptable, and even the bible talks about the relationships slaves should keep with their masters. Today we find slavery to be absolutely wrong. Morals change, and in some cultures, morals can be different. There are not really absolute morals and this is not a black and white world.
You as a child, more than likely had an innate sense of justice. . . children often do. Honest little creatures. . . . are they not? Before we are ever tarnished and tried. . . we know what is right. . . it is as the bible says. . . written on our hearts.
Yes and no. Children have a more simplistic view of the world, but a lack of understanding, as well as a huge amount of selfishness. Kids don't want to share, generally. That is a learned behavior that is tied to a moral that we are not born with. Some things are known from birth as to right and wrong, but some things we have to learn.
We are never without control over our lives in the manner in which you imply. . . we are free-will creatures. Even a ravaged body with a sound mind retains control over ones thoughts.
I was implying that the author you quoted seemed to believe that we can't affect things in our lives. I agree that we are free-will creatures as well, but I guess to me our thoughts are somewhat less important than our actions. For example, the tenth commandment states in part, "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house". If I like a friend's house better than mine, I don't consider that a sin. If I do something childish like vandalize his house or try to make him hate his house, that would be bad behavior on my part. However, having feelings is not wrong, in my opinion, it's just part of being human.
Unless one is highly unstable. . . . Choosing willingly to submit to something out of love is much different than than being coerced into a behavior. Freely giving my life to Christ is much different than being hog tied to an altar. I hope you appreciate the difference. It is what I have learned post TWI, and I think I have now gained a real sense in where a non believer post TWI is coming from.
I do see the difference, and that is why I respect the beliefs of others. You believe in Christianity, I am fine with that because like you said, you do it freely. My Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Wiccan, and other friends all have my respect as well because they freely choose to believe in these things. All I ask is to be given the same level of respect by them and by Christians, which is usually the case.
I will continue in another post...
You JUST made a moral judgement. I have to tell you that it is not a difficult one to make. . . you and I both know that the moral thing would be for the person with the food to freely give to the one without. Is it moral to withold food from a starving human being?
What if the person is starving because they are a mass murderer on the run? What if you have to choose between feeding your family and feeding strangers? There are all sorts of other factors we could add that would change the outcome. It's nice to try to think in terms of black and white morality, but there are often gray areas.
There is nothing subjective in the reality of the moral right, but in the interpretation. However, without that moral absolute there is no wrong way to deal with a starving person. There is no absolute. Where does that absolute come from?
Here's a common scenario -- if you had to choose between the death of one of your children (or if you don't have any, pick another loved one) and the continent of Australia, who would you choose and why? The selflessly moral answer would be to choose the death of your child because you would be serving the greater good by saving the lives of millions of people. Personally, I would choose to save the life of my child because my daughter is more important to me than other people.
If that is too extreme of an example, change the stakes -- why do we keep any of our income, own a house, go to the movies, buy more than staple foods, etc. when there are homeless, starving, suffering people in the world? Nobody truly takes care of others selflessly in that scenario. Political attempts to "spread the wealth" in that way and make everyone either suffer or gain together equally have failed.
Again, where does that common sense come from? My sense of right and yours may differ. . . there are very bad places in this world, where very bad people do bad things with impunity. No sense of shame. . . they have their own moral code. . . you would probably weep if we discussed what some men are capable of. . . their common sense does not stop them. . . but we know what they do is evil. . . how? Is your common sense better than theirs? That is a moral judgement. You have a point of reference.
I don't understand exactly what you're getting at. Sure, almost everyone has that common sense, but it is an evolutionary natural trait. Those that don't have it are defective. However, seemingly good people can do great acts of evil as well. You should read up on Nazi Germany if you'd like to see some great examples of how "good" people do great evil. Nobody wants to be the bad guys, and nobody really thinks they are the bad guys. The terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 didn't do it because they were evil men that "hate our freedom." They viewed us as a threat, and used that as an excuse to murder thousands of us. From our perspective, they were evil men. From the perspective of those they represented, we are the evil ones. Since Christians and Muslims share the same god and the same commandment of "Thou shalt not kill" it requires either deluding oneself to consider it ok to commit acts of war and terrorism, or that most religious people merely pay lip service to those morals and don't live by them. I don't want to get too much into the political discussion though, so perhaps I should stop with this.
I don't feel it is necessary, or even helpful, at least for me, to have religion as a point of reference for making moral decisions. While you may quote verses that contain good things that we consider to be moral today, I can find other verses that tell you to take naughty kids out to the wall outside the town for the elders to kill them. From my perspective, Christianity evolves, and Christians pick and choose what verses apply and which ones can be ignored. This changes over time, especially in protestant culture.
Really? Our instincts alone tell us mutilating babies is wrong? What constitutes a baby? What does your instinct tell you there? There are places in this world where men can go sexually violate a 6 month old baby. Is their instinct faulty? Pack animals and protection. . . it goes much deeper than that I think. . . people give their lives for others. . . people spend their time, talent. money, and lives to serve those in need. No, sorry, it runs much deeper than that. . . we are capable of great love for our fellow man. . . an understanding of the value of human life as precious. . . Where does that come from?
Yes, it is a natural instinct. Caring for the young is natural, and likely an evolutionary trait. Many animals have the same trait. Also, I don't consider instincts to be an absolute thing. Yes, some men do rape children, and they don't have to leave this country to do it. There are many reasons, but in all cases they are mentally defective in some way. That doesn't mean that they can use that as an excuse, because there is no justification. Justifications and reasons are entirely different. I've seen child molesters on TV begging to be castrated because they can't control themselves. For them, there is clearly something wrong with them, and I don't think religion is going to help them. They should have enough self-control to not touch children, which is why they deserve to be severely punished when they do, but I don't think they can help but be sexually attracted to children.
As to serving others, we do it for many reasons, but it's just basic pack instinct as far as I can tell. It's the same thing wolves do. We understand the value of human life because we understand the value our own, and thus value others. It's a natural process as far as I can tell.
Thanks, and just for the record. . . I like your sense of justice and morality. . . it peers out from your politics!! LOL
Thanks for keeping this civil too. I hope that I didn't seem too pushy here, but I wanted to very clearly argue my points of what I think. I don't discount your beliefs or your belief system for you. However, I don't feel that it is right for me, and while I don't want to try to convince that I am correct and that you should agree with me, it is in my interest to have you and other Christians understand my point of view even if you ultimately disagree.
Anyway, this is my last post for now, I hope I didn't write too much stuff to where nobody can read it or reply.
I DO understand your POV and do disagree, and through rational and thoughful debate could further reason this out with you. . . . but, I will allow my first post to stand. . . . with these added thoughts.
Although you found my stereo type offensive. . . . you went on to give an explanation which defends it! If you were genuinely offeded, why did you give it creedence?
Liking your neighbors house better than your own is hardly a covetous thought. . . in any honest discussion it is so important for the participants to understand words in the manner in which they are used. Thank you for illustrating what that paticularly means. Albeit, I assume unintentionally.
I am left wondering about your point of reference for the distinction between good and bad. . . . . as common sense still allows the marriage of a 13 to a 40 year old in some cultures. Have they not evolved to your point of reference yet? :)
THANK YOU for your response! These debates between Christians and atheists go on all the time. They are interesting to say the least. . . . I had lunch with Frank Turek once and it was so fascinating to talk about his experiences doing this very thing. It is quite easy to discount someone's POV or understanding as lacking. . . but honest debate requires much more.
This question is deeply pondered, but hardly "easily" dismissed. Me, I sometimes think atheism is itself a faith. I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist. . . :)
So many conversations going on here at once, I really wish I could keep up!!! But for now I will stick with this one, because it is where I started. :)
Geisha, I am going to do my best to answer your questions here, but I am not entirely sure I understand them, so I may need some additional input from you. (p.s. use smaller words so I don't have to grab my dictionary ;) ).
Hi Abi,
I will start a thread soon and maybe we can look at Romans. . . . seems a good place to take a peek from a Jewish perspective. Thanks for your answer and
hope when you get a chance you can look at what I said about what it means to follow Jesus. I am hardly perfect or an expert at it. . . but I keep on trying.
Perspective, Geisha. What it means to follow Jesus truly is a subjective matter of perspective. I believe I do follow Jesus (though I don't label myself Christian) in many ways, though certainly not perfectly.
I have ALWAYS wanted to ask something here, but vitriolic responses have often precluded me from posing this, but, since I have your ear for a moment, and know you to be willing to honestly consider.. . . . . .
When one turns to another faith after claiming Christianity as their faith for sometimes as long as 20 years. . . . how, can one say, with real intellectual honesty, that they reject the concept of true and opposing false believers within Christianity?
And this is where I begin to get lost and become unsure of what you are asking. I think you are asking either a) how I can reject Christianity after being one or b) how I can reject the notion that there are false believers within Christianity.
I'll start with a) how could I reject it after claiming it:
First, you have to understand I was not raised Christian. My parents were non practicing Jews. I did pick up on bits and pieces of Christianity while growing up, because our small community was largely composed of Christians. I even when to catechism (sp) for a time as a child, because I was curious and interested. Outside of that, my only real exposure to Christianity was with Jehovah Witnesses (I never became one but I did study with some for a time) and TWI. I think by your definition of Christianity, then, I may never have truly been a Christian?
I also went to a number of churches off and on both before and after my time with TWI. What they taught just never sat right with me. Truly, even when I look back on my time with TWI, I had issues with things that were taught, though some of it I did believe and some of it I desperately wanted to believe and some of it I wanted to reject and some of it I wished I could reject.
After leaving TWI, I spent quite a few years studying a variety or religions. I eventually realized that what I was really looking for was that "connection to God" that I felt I had as a child. TWI gave me head knowledge, but in gaining that head knowledge I lost any sense of a true connection with God that I once had. Eventually, I decided to return to my roots and study the relgion of my heritage. There I found the peace that I had been searching for, for nearly my entire life. There I have at least begun to find that connection with God that I had lost for so many years.
That said, while I don't label myself a Christian, I don't reject Jesus either. (and because of that I am sure there are plenty within Judaism, though certainly not all, who would reject me!). I very much believe in what Jesus taught and I do believe he was sent by God to teach, as were many of the great men and woman of the O.T.
So, while I label myself Jewish, there are those who would not. While I don't label myself a Christian, there are those who probably would, if they fully understood what I do and do not believe. :)
Which sort of brings me full circle to part b) how I can reject the notion that there are false believers within Christianity:
For this, I think I would need to understand your perspective of false believers within Christianity. From my perspective, it does not matter what label you assign to your religious beliefs. In the end, Christian, Jew, Pagan, you will have some of it right and some of it wrong. What does matter, at least to God IMO, is that you are learning and growing. That your heart is with Him.
I hope somewhere in all of that I have answered your question. If I haven't, then please be patient with me and try to re-state it your question so I can try again. :)
Especially as the bible has specific verses exclaiming Christ ability to keep us? That no one is able to snatch us from His hand. . . . even us. The bible tells us Jesus will leave the 99 sheep of His own flock to find and carry back on His shoulders the one who has wandered away?
One of the places where God is portrayed as a woman through a parable is where the woman who goes through every inch of her house to find the smallest coin while not regarding the riches she already posseses.
Our faith in reality rest completely in His ability. Faith is a gift and if it is truly from God, it is a perfect gift. It would be one that is able to acomplish that which is its purpose. The bible exclaims the abilty of God to accomplish His purpose.
If faith is truly a gift to be received only from God and rests completely in God's ability, than certainly we cannot lay blame at the feet of those who are lacking in faith, can we? Would not their lack of faith then be God's fault, if it can only come from Him? Or am I misunderstanding you here?
Jesus own words. . . . depart----I never knew you. . . to cries of Lord, Lord,. . . did I not. . . in your name. Give us a glimpse of the opposing true and false believer. . . . don't they?
But who was Jesus speaking to? Was he speaking to the sinner, the atheist, the pagan? Or was he speaking to those who would oppress others out of their greed for power, money, lust?
Yet, I have read and seen a pluralistic or relativist debate ensue about Christianity as a faith in the most voracious manner. This, by the very same people who faked it for years. Debating, while being a living illustration of the opposing viewpoint just strikes me as ironic, does it not strike you that way?
I am not sure what you mean by this or what you are asking. Could you try to restate it please?
I have always wondered here on these forums. . . . about this very thing. It would also not be a stretch to surmise that there are specific things which make one a Christian. If, there are. . . . we may not have had them in TWI. Most have gone their own way, haven't we? As a person claiming Christianity as a one time faith, but now having moved on to something else. . . one could deduce that the element missing to allow this. . . could be a relationship with Jesus and knowing Him enough to hear His voice and causing Him to come collect us. . . . should we stray. No?
Well, in a sense you may have answered your own question - at least with respect to me. If there is a very specific thing that makes one Christian, and we may not have even gotten that specific thing from TWI, then it is quite likely that from your perspective (and the perspective of others, do doubt) that I never was a Christian. If having a relationship with Jesus is a requirement for being Christian than I can honestly say I never was one. I did not have a relationship with Jesus while in TWI. In TWI I grasped the concept that God is all loving and forgiving (via the teachings of Jesus and the example of Jesus) but I never had an actual relationship with Jesus. I have had a relationship with God, but not Jesus.
And this brings us back to pluralism, perhaps. If I say I have a relationship with God and you say you have a relationship with Jesus, is it not possible we both have a relationship with the same being, but simply assign different names? If Oakspear or Bramble have relationships with several gods, is it not possible they actually have a relationship with one and the same God, but for whatever reason, they view the different aspects of God as different dieties?
I used to have a tag line that said something to the effect of "all the gods are but one god." It was a paraphrase from a line in one of my favorite novels. It goes back to labels and rituals, which are but forms and fashions to help our human minds understand that which we otherwise cannot understand. I think God is much bigger than the human labels, forms, and rituals we assign, but He understands our human frailty and "winks" at it, so to speak.
Pardon me for my "drive by" post, but I couldn't let this one pass.
When I see phrases like "real intellectual honesty" used in regards to something as squishy as religion, um, I dunno. That strikes me as being UTTERLY ludicrous.
Despite "witnesses" to the contrary and all sorts of studies - and even universities - devoted to some sort of intellectual pursuit of religious notions, it occurs to me that "spiritual" concepts and ideas are primarily driven by emotion and feelings. When you have a text as dubious and variously interpreted and as uncertain in origin as most Holy Writs tend to be, how can you EVER claim any sort of "intellectual" veracity?
Doesn't it always boil down to phrases like "I just FEEL the Lord is showing me such and such", or "I'm being GUIDED to believe such and such", or - the common Wayfer phrase "I just KNOW blah, blah, blah".
"Belief" is a lot of things, but a rigorous intellectual discipline it's not...
Aww, George, you can drive by post in the doctrinal section anytime.
Btw:
Despite "witnesses" to the contrary and all sorts of studies - and even universities - devoted to some sort of intellectual pursuit of religious notions, it occurs to me that "spiritual" concepts and ideas are primarily driven by emotion and feelings. When you have a text as dubious and variously interpreted and as uncertain in origin as most Holy Writs tend to be, how can you EVER claim any sort of "intellectual" veracity?
Just thought I would mention that there are studies that would suggest it isn't driven by emotions and feelings alone. Some studies suggest it is genetics. That your DNA programs you to believe or not to believe.
So, perhaps it simply isn't in your DNA? And if it isn't there, it isn't there. Not your fault, not your choice?
Drive by again sometime soon. :)
Doesn't it always boil down to phrases like "I just FEEL the Lord is showing me such and such", or "I'm being GUIDED to believe such and such", or - the common Wayfer phrase "I just KNOW blah, blah, blah".
"Belief" is a lot of things, but a rigorous intellectual discipline it's not...
Please tell me that you're not seriously proposing that 'God gene' crap, are you, Abi? For one thing, ... where is it? Have they found the location of this supposed gene yet? You'd figure that once they have the genome mapped, they'd be able to find it.
Yet Another Example of a rather false and desperate attempt to make science palatable to people who treat religion like it's itself a science.
Just a quick thanks for your reply and to tell you I will start our thread this weekend. I am looking forward to hearing your perspective. I really mean that. No hurry, I know what a time crunch is like. In fact, I so want to respond to your last post, it has brought up more questions for me. Honest questions, not meant to convert, but to help me understand. Just gonna take me a day or two.
Mr P-Moshses post actuallty did enlighten me a bit concerning a few issues. I nearly dropped my jaw when I saw one thing in there that was helpful in understanding where some who no longer believe in God are coming from.
I will have some time soon. For the record, these arguments concerning the existence of God being negated by the existence of evil?? They are so often used. . . . they are named. They are actually named depending on the angle one approaches the question.
As you can tell, better thinkers than I deal with them more effectively. I had to use the words of Dr. Zacharias! :)
If you get a chance to check in here on the weekend, I will ask my silly but sincere questions about a few things you explained. Fair warning! LOL
As for Georges question about doesn't it always boil down to a feeling about the Lord showing you this or that. The answer is actually an emphatic NO it does not. Christianity is a reasonable faith. . . one where people have to consider many things and then make a choice on what to believe. Some do consider it with less mind and more feeling to be sure, but then they are sometimes painfully unaware of what they believe, . . . . . and one could argue. . . they do not truly believe it. . . . . . . . don't we use that same process of chosing to believe in so many areas of our lives? Consider the evidence and then believe or not?
Ask away, Geisha. It is not likely I will take offense, and honestly it is not likely I will convert. Oh that I could!! It would be much simpler, living in this society, to simply converst and go with the masses!! :)
Garth,
Am I seriously proposing the gene theory? Ummm, not really. Do I think the gene theory COULD be right? Sure, I think it is possible. All I have to do is look at my two boys and remember what they have been like since infancy (so very different from each other too). They have convinced me that to some degree or another, our personalities are genetically programmed.
So, no, I don't believe the gene theory has been proven, but I do think it could be one of many possibilities. But mostly, I was just having fun with George.
Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?
1. What is hell?
Not a place of high thermal output (though some conservative scholars disagree) but being “away from the Lord’s presence” :
2Th 1:6
Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12
That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ
(2 Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;-cut off from intimate union with God (Rev 21:3; & Rev 22:4 :
Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev22:4
And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6
And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7
Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Hell’s darkness and flames (which, if literal, would cancel each other out) are figurative, portraying anguish and hopelessness without God. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)-:
Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Spirit beings, which are unaffected by physical fire.
Let’s address some hell-related questions that unbelievers and believers find troubling.
2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?”
Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).
3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?”
No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief!
Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret.
Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits
Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry
Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something
Luk 16:19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luk 16:27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG)
4. “But how can people be sent to hell without knowing it’s full implications?”
Even if one isn’t fully aware of hell’s anguish, this doesn’t mean our choice is too much to bear. God is ready to equip anyone for salvation (John 16:8):
All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!
Jhn 16:1
These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
Jhn 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Jhn 16:3
And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
Jhn 16:4
But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Jhn 16:5
But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
Jhn 16:6
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Jhn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jhn 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 16:10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jhn 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Jhn 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!
Though the full consequences of our embracing or rejecting God aren’t fully apparent to us now, grace to choose responsibly is available to all. What prevents the salvation of everyone? Individuals’ choosing freely to reject God’s grace. We can always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51 - 60).
Act 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your father’s persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
God doesn’t send people to hell; they freely reject him, condemning themselves by not acknowledging their guilt. (Unto true repentance!!!)
5. “Why didn’t God make the world in such a way that all people would love him?”
While a world in which everyone loves God is theoretically possible, it is not feasible. Whatever possible world with free creatures God could create, it may be that none is sin-free, and God’s love isn’t forced. Hell-the absence of God’s presence-exists because, like Milton’s Satan, people would rather “reign in hell than serve in heaven.” God isn’t unloving but rather has gone to great lengths to show grace to everyone. Should God not create at all because many freely resist Him in the world God created and thus deprive many others of the greatest good possible?
6. “Why did God create people He knew would reject and be separated from Him forever?”
Rom 9:22
[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
2Cr 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Ti 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
Hbr 9:21
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Rev 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Despite God’s desire that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), many still resist.
7. What if some become more resistant no matter how loving God is?
Isaiah 5:4; & Matt 23:37?
Isa 5:4
What could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Mat 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9
And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Mat 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16
Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17
[Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18
And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19
[Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20
Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21
And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22
And he that shall swear by heaven sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24
[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26
[Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,
Mat 23:30
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33
[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous bloodshed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
8. Should God not create those who would respond to His love simply because others would refuse it?
Luk 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
God’s will supersedes mankind’s will both selectively and collectively; whether we regard it believe it, or fully understand it!!!
Luk 11:3
Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4
And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
9. What if God created a world in which a maximal balance of least condemned and most redeemed was realized?
This is not unloving. He is all knowing ever present and omnipotent. What we do and decide to do with our Free will is known from the beginning to the end by the Alpha and Omega. He sees from the outside of time and space contingencies and restrains, the boundaries given to man, because our knowledge and wisdom is limited and finite (RG.)
Jud 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15
This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
10. “Why wouldn’t God, from the start, make us like heavens saints-loving God while unable to sin?”
“Even Angels and heavens host have free will! The Devil and a third of the angels fell for trying to usurp the throne of GOD. Every idol that mankind puts before GOD is at enmity with the only true Holy Creator and only REAL GOD!” (RG.)
Exd 20:1
And God spake all these words, saying,
Exd 20:2
I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exd 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Robust freedom on earth-to embrace freely God’s grace or resist it-is a requirement for arriving at one’s final destiny. Our earthly direction is “sealed” in the afterlife; our heart’s desire is finally granted-God or no God. So God couldn’t have created a heaven-like state in which the redeemed no longer sin without damaging this vitally important freedom. (Or perhaps, rather than “sealing” us from sin in the afterlife, God simply foreknows that no saint will actually freely sin, guaranteeing a sin-free condition in the final state.) Finally, because God has so fully given of Himself to make salvation freely available through His Son, we can confidently entrust any lingering questions about hell to His excellent character.
By: Paul Copan ( is in Italicized blue print excerpts)
Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).
This bears repeating
Yes a Good GOD will absolutely do as He says He will do! He will do this for perfectly just reasons, that are higher than a total accummulation of all mankind's, in total, reasonings, religions and ideologies...simply because HE is the Creator, The Alpha and the Omega, the only wise GOD and All knowing and All powerful!!!
He has and continues to demonstrate His LOVE and will unto the end
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
GOD is absolutely black and white, truly and thoroughly unwaveringly objective about what he says; Where on the other hand most men are not...that is the reason for the gulf between man and GOD!!!
Man likes to be his own god and/or hew out his own gods, and live by his own rationales, ideologies, religions, and justifications.
Jesus Christ is GOD's solution. Man's solution is to innovate their own individualized solutions!!!
How You use your free will choices are entirely up to you; that won't change one iota or jot and tittle of GOD's Word, HIS Ways or HIS Acts!!!
Me thinks that Rainbow Girl is angry for some reason. ... Sounding upset today?
So not having a relationship with God now becomes the ultimate, infinite sin!!, huh? ... Wow!! :unsure: Ya know, when I usually think of the meaning and understanding of the word 'sin', I usually think of associated and related concepts like, 'immoral', 'unethical', 'vile', 'wrong', and the like attributes that depict, ... ohh what's the word I'm looking for, ... Oh yeah, ... evil! (And as you probably know, a *lot* of Christians think this way too. <_< )
A person becoming evil , and that for no better reason than not having a relationship with your God, huh? I mean, that's what it would have to boil down to, wouldn't it? We're freekin' evil.
Have you ever *asked* anyone of us evil people _why_ we no longer/have ever wanted any relationship with this deity of yours? ... Huh? Have you? ... Or have you just _presumed_ (assisted by the unquestionable dictates of scripture, of course) why us evil people have rejected God, and that we did so in such a prideful and capricious manner?
The answers might surprise you. I know it did me when I was first getting to know various atheist individuals. And there was a helluva lot more to it than this same ol' tired yarn about how they simply don't want to submit to any Higher Authority and wanting to "be their own gods".
In my view the argument is not as black & white as God vs. Man. Who physically wrote the bible? Man. There's no more reason to suppose that the bible is THE Word o' God than any other of a number of "holy" books. To me it's not God on one side and men on the other, but men in an inumerable number of corners, got maybe in all of them, some of them, or maybe none of them.
Me thinks that Rainbow Girl is angry for some reason. ... Sounding upset today?
My moniker is RainbowsGirl, Garth :)
No, Not really... but, I am a little sad that people need to respond with self validating techniques, misrepresentations, mischaractizations, quoting only exurbs and para phrasings that are taken out of context to validate themselves or their opinions. I never have had any respect for those types of techniques
So not having a relationship with God now becomes the ultimate, infinite sin!!, huh? ... Wow!! :unsure: Ya know, when I usually think of the meaning and understanding of the word 'sin', I usually think of associated and related concepts like, 'immoral', 'unethical', 'vile', 'wrong', and the like attributes that depict, ... ohh what's the word I'm looking for, ... Oh yeah, ... evil! (And as you probably know, a *lot* of Christians think this way too. <_< )
Garth,
GOD's absolute and unvarying Will to me is completely valid; and it completely matters to me. It far out weighs anyone's man made or conceived opinion I am not accusing You or anyone of being evil, sinful, or immoral.
According to the Word of GOD...He alone is the judge, I do believe that You are wrong concerning GOD strictly from a purely biblical viewpoint. I use scripture to state GOD's Word, Will and Way. Within the scripture is GOD's doctrine reproof and correction. If my quoting scripture convicts or upset anyone, then it is the scripture itself speaking and it is not my responsibility to instruct anyone is the full and complete Word of GOD; most particularly those who oppose GOD and HIS Word. Neither do I condemn them as I am not GOD. Without a desire to know and understand GOD many will be lost that have had the free will to chose.
My hope is that everyone considers deeply what they believe and considers deeply who GOD really is and what is really HIS Will and All of what He Really can and will do.
That is a CS Lewis quote from the article that Geisha send me (Paul Coplan's statements are in italic in post #1)...it has a lot of bearing but in MHO is not the full weight of GOD's word speaking. I did my best to separate the article out and add the relevant scriptures, that apply.
No Garth I will never understand why so many men relegate GOD to such an inferior position and allege that He is cruel or hateful or unjust etc.! So inferior as to put themselves above HIM!!! I also don't understand reading only what you want to read and reading into what is clearly stated, or not reading at all or merely attacking.
A person becoming evil , and that for no better reason than not having a relationship with your God, huh? I mean, that's what it would have to boil down to, wouldn't it? We're freekin' evil.
It is GOD's requirement that You believe HIM...If He isn't right You have no problem; If He alone is right then You have a huge insurmountable and unrectifiable problem
Have you ever *asked* anyone of us evil people _why_ we no longer/have ever wanted any relationship with this deity of yours? ... Huh? Have you? ... Or have you just _presumed_ (assisted by the unquestionable dictates of scripture, of course) why us evil people have rejected God, and that we did so in such a prideful and capricious manner?
I do not know why anyone personally rejects GOD....varying reasons I suppose; as well as there are varying reasons why people who love GOD do so with unwavering committment...and I might add are also ridiculed and attacked for it.
I have compassion and empathize individually with people and in most cases with the state of mankind and our dilemmas as I am an imperfect person myself; but one who absolutely believes that GOD is who that He says that He is!!! My hope is to represent the finality of rejecting GOD, so that it is truly and deeply considered... I Love GOD and He wants all men to be saved out of HIS Love. It is a choice. If You work at trying to dissect GOD and see only what You want to see then You no longer have GOD. You instead have what You want...in essence what You choose!!! This is more clearly stated in one of my posts in this thread
The answers might surprise you. I know it did me when I was first getting to know various atheist individuals. And there was a helluva lot more to it than this same ol' tired yarn about how they simply don't want to submit to any Higher Authority and wanting to "be their own gods".
I have reasons not to share Your opinion of GOD for I have a relationship with HIM and no one ever has exceeded HIS LOVE in my life
In my view the argument is not as black & white as God vs. Man. Who physically wrote the bible? Man. There's no more reason to suppose that the bible is THE Word o' God than any other of a number of "holy" books. To me it's not God on one side and men on the other, but men in an inumerable number of corners, got maybe in all of them, some of them, or maybe none of them.
It is my belief and understanding that it is GOD's Word; Not all believe GOD; but I am convinced and believe HIS testimony concerning Himself and HIS Word!!!
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?
1. What is hell?
Not a place of high thermal output (though some conservative scholars disagree) but being “away from the Lord’s presence” :
<SNIP>
All those verses..(too many to repeat in yet another post) and you never get to discussing the verses. I wonder what the point of this was?
I also question the motivation behind starting a thread like this.
BTW - just how arrogant is it for one person to decide who goes to hell and who doesn't?
"Scholars" disagree on every aspect of anything worth discussing and even what isn't worth discussing, Biblically speaking.
BUT - as I recall Jesus had a few simple things - Love God with all your heart, soul, ,mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. Have mercy and compassion.
I see miles of verses and all I read is "Bitterness and hatred."
It baffles me that anyone would uphold this doctrine about hell as good and just and loving...as somehow beneficial to ?? God? true believers?humans in general?
What is the point, other than fear motivation?
Comparing the hell doctrine to a parent's loving boundary does not make sense at all. Parents don't destroy or annihilate their imperfect children, or even their wildly messed up children.
Plus, IMO, it-thebelief in hell for the unbelievers-would sooner or later start dividing people into the two categories--acceptable, like me(heaven bound), and unacceptable, not like me(the hell bound).
Which might be exactly the point. Make the consequences for not believing or leaving the True Faith really high...
So glad we don't live under religious laws/religious rulers in this country.
Perspective, Geisha. What it means to follow Jesus truly is a subjective matter of perspective. I believe I do follow Jesus (though I don't label myself Christian) in many ways, though certainly not perfectly.
First off Abi, I do believe that you are a person who strives for peace and to love your neighbor. Blessed are the peacemakers. . . right? My understanding goes something like this, I obey out of love for God. It does speak in the gospels about obeying God if we love Him. In the whole NT in fact. What motivates me is not my own goodness, or even moral character, I sadly lack in these qualities. What motivates me and keeps me going is my desire to love Him. I pretty much fail left to my inclinations as they are usually focused on ME!! :) So, Jesus is my example, but to really understand how He operates, I need to know Him.
There is actually nothing subjective in that, if you consider His ways. They are revealed to us in scripture. It is so filled with the most amazing wisdom about life and love. His ways are so much better than my own notions. Perfect really. What Jesus did here on earth, was nothing short of mindblowing, yet so simple. He always brought everything back to the human condition, which He so understands.
Consider if you will, the woman at the well. She was about as outcast as you can get. As someone I know likes to say, Vegas would have run her out of town. Yet, Jesus, who should have been NOwhere near her. . . had a drink with her. Seeing through her outer hardness into her heart, He offered HER of all people, what she truly needed most to become whole. Not only forgivness, but everlasting life. He did not point her to external conformity to religious rituals, but showed her the proper heart attitude. He also did not just ignore her sins, but He exposed them and lovingly showed her how to get past it and become whole. This should have been impossible given her situation. He understood the human condition.
It is an incredibly tender account.
She in turn, recognized who He is. He had such an impact on her that she was eager to share Him with the towns people, who she had been avoiding because of her reputation. Her witness and honesty about her own life impressed them so much that they had to come see Jesus for themselves.
He did this again and again. . . consider the woman caught in adultery. . . they were fixin to kill her!
So, although we can emulate Jesus, we must have a way to give that makes one whole. This gift of forgiveness and eternal life is imparted from Him and Him alone. We don't hold the keys to heaven. . . God does.
And this is where I begin to get lost and become unsure of what you are asking. I think you are asking either a) how I can reject Christianity after being one or b) how I can reject the notion that there are false believers within Christianity.
I'll start with a) how could I reject it after claiming it:
First, you have to understand I was not raised Christian. My parents were non practicing Jews. I did pick up on bits and pieces of Christianity while growing up, because our small community was largely composed of Christians. I even when to catechism (sp) for a time as a child, because I was curious and interested. Outside of that, my only real exposure to Christianity was with Jehovah Witnesses (I never became one but I did study with some for a time) and TWI. I think by your definition of Christianity, then, I may never have truly been a Christian?
I also went to a number of churches off and on both before and after my time with TWI. What they taught just never sat right with me. Truly, even when I look back on my time with TWI, I had issues with things that were taught, though some of it I did believe and some of it I desperately wanted to believe and some of it I wanted to reject and some of it I wished I could reject.
After leaving TWI, I spent quite a few years studying a variety or religions. I eventually realized that what I was really looking for was that "connection to God" that I felt I had as a child. TWI gave me head knowledge, but in gaining that head knowledge I lost any sense of a true connection with God that I once had. Eventually, I decided to return to my roots and study the relgion of my heritage. There I found the peace that I had been searching for, for nearly my entire life. There I have at least begun to find that connection with God that I had lost for so many years.
That said, while I don't label myself a Christian, I don't reject Jesus either. (and because of that I am sure there are plenty within Judaism, though certainly not all, who would reject me!). I very much believe in what Jesus taught and I do believe he was sent by God to teach, as were many of the great men and woman of the O.T.
So, while I label myself Jewish, there are those who would not. While I don't label myself a Christian, there are those who probably would, if they fully understood what I do and do not believe.
Which sort of brings me full circle to part b) how I can reject the notion that there are false believers within Christianity:
For this, I think I would need to understand your perspective of false believers within Christianity. From my perspective, it does not matter what label you assign to your religious beliefs. In the end, Christian, Jew, Pagan, you will have some of it right and some of it wrong. What does matter, at least to God IMO, is that you are learning and growing. That your heart is with Him.
I hope somewhere in all of that I have answered your question. If I haven't, then please be patient with me and try to re-state it your question so I can try again.
Well you did answer my question, and I thank-you. The most telling for me was the part about your heart being with Him. I loved that. Again, the woman at the well, she was up front about her religious identity crisis. . . and as her own religion had rejected her. . . she still had a bad taste in her mouth . . . her thing was. . . what difference does it really make?. . . you go here, they go there. . . your fathers and ours say this and that. Jesus was actually pointing her to the Father. She said, I know Messiah is coming and when He does He will explain all this to us. But, then she finally put it all together, He had so penetrated the hardness and hurt in her heart. . . she got it. This was He who would show the way.
That is why He could say. . . come unto to ME all ye that labor and are heavy laden. . . . and I will give you rest. A perfect illustration of Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Maybe you can begin to see what attracts me so to Him. My questions are in the next post. Figure I would break it up a bit! :) Your post is a very worthy of a thoughtful and honest reply.
RG, do you see the similarity between what you are preaching and what we were taught in TWI?
The attitudes that exude from your posts?
'I didn't write the book, God did'
'if you don't believe my way then you are wrong/off the Word/out of fellowship, and I am right'
'if you don't believe my way you are rejecting God'
Even the 'black and white' God?
All you have to do is read the OT to know that God isn't black and white and that He was full of compassion and forgiveness even before Jesus' life. Moses broke the law and married an 'unbeliever.' David ate of the shew bread. Abraham was going to commit child sacrifice. Sarah laughed at God. I could go on and on and on. Even the great ones from the OT didn't have it perfect and yet, God loved them and forgave them.
When you were in TWI, were you not equally convinced that you had the "only truth" and everyone else was misled, an unbeliever, a rejector of God? Do you not recall how hard-hearted and unloving it all became?
Do you not see how you appear to have fallen into that same way of thinking all over again?
[As a side note - am I the only one who sees the contradiction in the notion that a God who so hated human sacrifice in the OT would set up a "plan" whereby human sacrifice (Jesus on the cross) was the ONLY way to redeem man?]
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
13
14
29
23
Popular Days
Jan 25
37
Jan 22
20
Jan 31
13
Jan 26
11
Top Posters In This Topic
Abigail 13 posts
Oakspear 14 posts
geisha779 29 posts
RainbowsGirl 23 posts
Popular Days
Jan 25 2009
37 posts
Jan 22 2009
20 posts
Jan 31 2009
13 posts
Jan 26 2009
11 posts
geisha779
Thanks, and just for the record. . . I like your sense of justice and morality. . . it peers out from your politics!! LOL
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
You judge and miss the mark.
How long will ignorance prevail?
When will the anger end?
Is that all there is to hold to?
If you let go, will you fall?
Or is there really something eternal.
Peaceful, and willing to come to light.
Will you hide behind the books forever?
Will you show the Christ that this is the way?
No. You will become as dead.
The things that will melt away will astound.
But only for a moment or two.
The things that will appear will take your breath.
Out of darkness, from invisible to enlightenment.
And not our doing, but being undone,
activation is witnessed, movement is seen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
I just love faith-based responses like this, as it clearly demonstrates a total ignorance that many theists have re: atheists. I too, used to have such a viewpoint re: atheists. ... Until I actually _meet_ and _got_ _to_ _know_ the aforementioned 'immoral'/'amoral' atheists, and something called reality gave me a serious bitchslap upside the head!
I know that P-Mosh dealt with this lame issue already, but I felt I just had to respond (Yet Again) to this loon idea that atheists somehow lack a moral center and/or are fighting/dancing against any 'reality for a moral law', and that for no better reason than that they reject the idea/concept of God. And throwing out Bible Scriptures to ((cough)) 'prove' this does absolutely _nothing_ to make real said loon idea.
There are many times when blind loyalty to religious beliefs fail you, and this is clearly one of them.
<_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi Abi,
I will start a thread soon and maybe we can look at Romans. . . . seems a good place to take a peek from a Jewish perspective. Thanks for your answer and
hope when you get a chance you can look at what I said about what it means to follow Jesus. I am hardly perfect or an expert at it. . . but I keep on trying.I
I have ALWAYS wanted to ask something here, but vitriolic responses have often precluded me from posing this, but, since I have your ear for a moment, and know you to be willing to honestly consider.. . . . . .
When one turns to another faith after claiming Christianity as their faith for sometimes as long as 20 years. . . . how, can one say, with real intellectual honesty, that they reject the concept of true and opposing false believers within Christianity?
Especially as the bible has specific verses exclaiming Christ ability to keep us? That no one is able to snatch us from His hand. . . . even us. The bible tells us Jesus will leave the 99 sheep of His own flock to find and carry back on His shoulders the one who has wandered away?
One of the places where God is portrayed as a woman through a parable is where the woman who goes through every inch of her house to find the smallest coin while not regarding the riches she already posseses.
Our faith in reality rest completely in His ability. Faith is a gift and if it is truly from God, it is a perfect gift. It would be one that is able to acomplish that which is its purpose. The bible exclaims the abilty of God to accomplish His purpose.
Jesus own words. . . . depart----I never knew you. . . to cries of Lord, Lord,. . . did I not. . . in your name. Give us a glimpse of the opposing true and false believer. . . . don't they?
Yet, I have read and seen a pluralistic or relativist debate ensue about Christianity as a faith in the most voracious manner. This, by the very same people who faked it for years. Debating, while being a living illustration of the opposing viewpoint just strikes me as ironic, does it not strike you that way?
I have always wondered here on these forums. . . . about this very thing. It would also not be a stretch to surmise that there are specific things which make one a Christian. If, there are. . . . we may not have had them in TWI. Most have gone their own way, haven't we? As a person claiming Christianity as a one time faith, but now having moved on to something else. . . one could deduce that the element missing to allow this. . . could be a relationship with Jesus and knowing Him enough to hear His voice and causing Him to come collect us. . . . should we stray. No?
Garth,
One can accuse Dr. Zacharias of many things. . . ignorance is not one of them. I appreciate your response and also the thoughtfulness behind it. . . . but these issues of morality and God have spawned Nietzche's uberman. . . a frustrated comment by Dawkins to the effect. . . . We must deny the existence of evil to win this argument. . . . quickly danced around while backtracking. . . . and Bertrand Russell saying in a debate with Fredrick Copplestone that he chose good and bad based on a "feeling".
I think his comments were based on debates and study. . . . experience with atheists. Many atheists are very honest that this paticular point is a difficult one while denying the existence of God.
To me it is not a lame argument, but a probing and thought provoking question. . . .
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Perhaps, but I view it as a form of bigotry, much like how black women are stereotyped as the "angry black women." Having been good friends with African-Americans, including women, I saw the bigotry they had to deal with every day, and how they are treated differently, which basically makes it happen for real. When someone is treated badly, they get angry, and if people ridicule or dismiss them, it just makes it worse. The same applies to atheists. We are usually treated badly by the public at large, and former president Bush (the dad, not the son) questioned whether athiests should even be allowed to be U.S. citizens. While I'm not one to make a big deal out of discrimination, I can see very clearly why so many atheists get angry. We are constantly told, especially by some Christians, that we are untrustworthy, evil, childish, delusional, etc. and we are not treated with respect. Note that I'm not accusing you of that here, just trying to explain why atheists get angry. It's sort of like being the only kid that doesn't believe in Santa Claus and the other kids pick on you as a result.
We are more advanced, but that doesn't necessarily mean that basic emotions and instinctual values are not present in other animals. Watch how gorillas take care of orphaned baby gorillas that are a part of their troop. There is no real reason for them to do it if it isn't their baby, yet they do. Watch how elephants visit the bones of their dead family members and caress the skulls and such in remembrance. Animals do exhibit a lot of behavior that we find in ourselves like this, and a lot of our behaviors are not as advanced as we think. I'm not an expert in sociology, but a lot of what they have discovered makes it very easy for them to predict what people will do, just as we can predict animal behaviors.
This is your opinion, but I still disagree with it. Perhaps religion explains it best for you, but it doesn't work for me and many others. For me it seems a huge stretch to try to put religious beliefs into a natural process that in my opinion, doesn't need the supernatural to function.
They are arbitrary ideals and standards, and morals change. In the past it was considered morally acceptable for things like 40 year old men to marry 13 year old girls. Today we consider that morally reprehensible. In the past, it was considered immoral for women to show their ankles in public in our culture, now pretty much everyone is ok with it outside of some strict baptists and the Mennonites. In the past, slavery was considered to be morally acceptable, and even the bible talks about the relationships slaves should keep with their masters. Today we find slavery to be absolutely wrong. Morals change, and in some cultures, morals can be different. There are not really absolute morals and this is not a black and white world.
Yes and no. Children have a more simplistic view of the world, but a lack of understanding, as well as a huge amount of selfishness. Kids don't want to share, generally. That is a learned behavior that is tied to a moral that we are not born with. Some things are known from birth as to right and wrong, but some things we have to learn.
I was implying that the author you quoted seemed to believe that we can't affect things in our lives. I agree that we are free-will creatures as well, but I guess to me our thoughts are somewhat less important than our actions. For example, the tenth commandment states in part, "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house". If I like a friend's house better than mine, I don't consider that a sin. If I do something childish like vandalize his house or try to make him hate his house, that would be bad behavior on my part. However, having feelings is not wrong, in my opinion, it's just part of being human.
I do see the difference, and that is why I respect the beliefs of others. You believe in Christianity, I am fine with that because like you said, you do it freely. My Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Wiccan, and other friends all have my respect as well because they freely choose to believe in these things. All I ask is to be given the same level of respect by them and by Christians, which is usually the case.
I will continue in another post...
What if the person is starving because they are a mass murderer on the run? What if you have to choose between feeding your family and feeding strangers? There are all sorts of other factors we could add that would change the outcome. It's nice to try to think in terms of black and white morality, but there are often gray areas.
Here's a common scenario -- if you had to choose between the death of one of your children (or if you don't have any, pick another loved one) and the continent of Australia, who would you choose and why? The selflessly moral answer would be to choose the death of your child because you would be serving the greater good by saving the lives of millions of people. Personally, I would choose to save the life of my child because my daughter is more important to me than other people.
If that is too extreme of an example, change the stakes -- why do we keep any of our income, own a house, go to the movies, buy more than staple foods, etc. when there are homeless, starving, suffering people in the world? Nobody truly takes care of others selflessly in that scenario. Political attempts to "spread the wealth" in that way and make everyone either suffer or gain together equally have failed.
I don't understand exactly what you're getting at. Sure, almost everyone has that common sense, but it is an evolutionary natural trait. Those that don't have it are defective. However, seemingly good people can do great acts of evil as well. You should read up on Nazi Germany if you'd like to see some great examples of how "good" people do great evil. Nobody wants to be the bad guys, and nobody really thinks they are the bad guys. The terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 didn't do it because they were evil men that "hate our freedom." They viewed us as a threat, and used that as an excuse to murder thousands of us. From our perspective, they were evil men. From the perspective of those they represented, we are the evil ones. Since Christians and Muslims share the same god and the same commandment of "Thou shalt not kill" it requires either deluding oneself to consider it ok to commit acts of war and terrorism, or that most religious people merely pay lip service to those morals and don't live by them. I don't want to get too much into the political discussion though, so perhaps I should stop with this.
I don't feel it is necessary, or even helpful, at least for me, to have religion as a point of reference for making moral decisions. While you may quote verses that contain good things that we consider to be moral today, I can find other verses that tell you to take naughty kids out to the wall outside the town for the elders to kill them. From my perspective, Christianity evolves, and Christians pick and choose what verses apply and which ones can be ignored. This changes over time, especially in protestant culture.
Continuing in yet another post...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
For some reason the forum isn't letting me reply.
Yes, it is a natural instinct. Caring for the young is natural, and likely an evolutionary trait. Many animals have the same trait. Also, I don't consider instincts to be an absolute thing. Yes, some men do rape children, and they don't have to leave this country to do it. There are many reasons, but in all cases they are mentally defective in some way. That doesn't mean that they can use that as an excuse, because there is no justification. Justifications and reasons are entirely different. I've seen child molesters on TV begging to be castrated because they can't control themselves. For them, there is clearly something wrong with them, and I don't think religion is going to help them. They should have enough self-control to not touch children, which is why they deserve to be severely punished when they do, but I don't think they can help but be sexually attracted to children.
As to serving others, we do it for many reasons, but it's just basic pack instinct as far as I can tell. It's the same thing wolves do. We understand the value of human life because we understand the value our own, and thus value others. It's a natural process as far as I can tell.
Thanks for keeping this civil too. I hope that I didn't seem too pushy here, but I wanted to very clearly argue my points of what I think. I don't discount your beliefs or your belief system for you. However, I don't feel that it is right for me, and while I don't want to try to convince that I am correct and that you should agree with me, it is in my interest to have you and other Christians understand my point of view even if you ultimately disagree.
Anyway, this is my last post for now, I hope I didn't write too much stuff to where nobody can read it or reply.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Mr P-Mosh,
I DO understand your POV and do disagree, and through rational and thoughful debate could further reason this out with you. . . . but, I will allow my first post to stand. . . . with these added thoughts.
Although you found my stereo type offensive. . . . you went on to give an explanation which defends it! If you were genuinely offeded, why did you give it creedence?
Liking your neighbors house better than your own is hardly a covetous thought. . . in any honest discussion it is so important for the participants to understand words in the manner in which they are used. Thank you for illustrating what that paticularly means. Albeit, I assume unintentionally.
I am left wondering about your point of reference for the distinction between good and bad. . . . . as common sense still allows the marriage of a 13 to a 40 year old in some cultures. Have they not evolved to your point of reference yet? :)
THANK YOU for your response! These debates between Christians and atheists go on all the time. They are interesting to say the least. . . . I had lunch with Frank Turek once and it was so fascinating to talk about his experiences doing this very thing. It is quite easy to discount someone's POV or understanding as lacking. . . but honest debate requires much more.
This question is deeply pondered, but hardly "easily" dismissed. Me, I sometimes think atheism is itself a faith. I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist. . . :)
Appreciate the time!
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
So many conversations going on here at once, I really wish I could keep up!!! But for now I will stick with this one, because it is where I started. :)
Geisha, I am going to do my best to answer your questions here, but I am not entirely sure I understand them, so I may need some additional input from you. (p.s. use smaller words so I don't have to grab my dictionary ;) ).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Pardon me for my "drive by" post, but I couldn't let this one pass.
When I see phrases like "real intellectual honesty" used in regards to something as squishy as religion, um, I dunno. That strikes me as being UTTERLY ludicrous.
Despite "witnesses" to the contrary and all sorts of studies - and even universities - devoted to some sort of intellectual pursuit of religious notions, it occurs to me that "spiritual" concepts and ideas are primarily driven by emotion and feelings. When you have a text as dubious and variously interpreted and as uncertain in origin as most Holy Writs tend to be, how can you EVER claim any sort of "intellectual" veracity?
Doesn't it always boil down to phrases like "I just FEEL the Lord is showing me such and such", or "I'm being GUIDED to believe such and such", or - the common Wayfer phrase "I just KNOW blah, blah, blah".
"Belief" is a lot of things, but a rigorous intellectual discipline it's not...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Aww, George, you can drive by post in the doctrinal section anytime.
Btw:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
(((snorts))) <_<
Please tell me that you're not seriously proposing that 'God gene' crap, are you, Abi? For one thing, ... where is it? Have they found the location of this supposed gene yet? You'd figure that once they have the genome mapped, they'd be able to find it.
Yet Another Example of a rather false and desperate attempt to make science palatable to people who treat religion like it's itself a science.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Abi,
Just a quick thanks for your reply and to tell you I will start our thread this weekend. I am looking forward to hearing your perspective. I really mean that. No hurry, I know what a time crunch is like. In fact, I so want to respond to your last post, it has brought up more questions for me. Honest questions, not meant to convert, but to help me understand. Just gonna take me a day or two.
Mr P-Moshses post actuallty did enlighten me a bit concerning a few issues. I nearly dropped my jaw when I saw one thing in there that was helpful in understanding where some who no longer believe in God are coming from.
I will have some time soon. For the record, these arguments concerning the existence of God being negated by the existence of evil?? They are so often used. . . . they are named. They are actually named depending on the angle one approaches the question.
As you can tell, better thinkers than I deal with them more effectively. I had to use the words of Dr. Zacharias! :)
If you get a chance to check in here on the weekend, I will ask my silly but sincere questions about a few things you explained. Fair warning! LOL
As for Georges question about doesn't it always boil down to a feeling about the Lord showing you this or that. The answer is actually an emphatic NO it does not. Christianity is a reasonable faith. . . one where people have to consider many things and then make a choice on what to believe. Some do consider it with less mind and more feeling to be sure, but then they are sometimes painfully unaware of what they believe, . . . . . and one could argue. . . they do not truly believe it. . . . . . . . don't we use that same process of chosing to believe in so many areas of our lives? Consider the evidence and then believe or not?
Geisha
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Ask away, Geisha. It is not likely I will take offense, and honestly it is not likely I will convert. Oh that I could!! It would be much simpler, living in this society, to simply converst and go with the masses!! :)
Garth,
Am I seriously proposing the gene theory? Ummm, not really. Do I think the gene theory COULD be right? Sure, I think it is possible. All I have to do is look at my two boys and remember what they have been like since infancy (so very different from each other too). They have convinced me that to some degree or another, our personalities are genetically programmed.
So, no, I don't believe the gene theory has been proven, but I do think it could be one of many possibilities. But mostly, I was just having fun with George.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?
1. What is hell?
Not a place of high thermal output (though some conservative scholars disagree) but being “away from the Lord’s presence” :
2Th 1:6
Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12
That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ
(2 Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;-cut off from intimate union with God (Rev 21:3; & Rev 22:4 :
Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev22:4
And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6
And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7
Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Hell’s darkness and flames (which, if literal, would cancel each other out) are figurative, portraying anguish and hopelessness without God. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)-:
Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Spirit beings, which are unaffected by physical fire.
Let’s address some hell-related questions that unbelievers and believers find troubling.
2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?”
Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).
3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?”
No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief!
Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret.
Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits
Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry
Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something
Luk 16:19
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luk 16:27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG)
4. “But how can people be sent to hell without knowing it’s full implications?”
Even if one isn’t fully aware of hell’s anguish, this doesn’t mean our choice is too much to bear. God is ready to equip anyone for salvation (John 16:8):
All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!
Jhn 16:1
These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
Jhn 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Jhn 16:3
And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
Jhn 16:4
But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Jhn 16:5
But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
Jhn 16:6
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Jhn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jhn 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 16:10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jhn 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Jhn 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!
Though the full consequences of our embracing or rejecting God aren’t fully apparent to us now, grace to choose responsibly is available to all. What prevents the salvation of everyone? Individuals’ choosing freely to reject God’s grace. We can always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51 - 60).
Act 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your father’s persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
God doesn’t send people to hell; they freely reject him, condemning themselves by not acknowledging their guilt. (Unto true repentance!!!)
5. “Why didn’t God make the world in such a way that all people would love him?”
While a world in which everyone loves God is theoretically possible, it is not feasible. Whatever possible world with free creatures God could create, it may be that none is sin-free, and God’s love isn’t forced. Hell-the absence of God’s presence-exists because, like Milton’s Satan, people would rather “reign in hell than serve in heaven.” God isn’t unloving but rather has gone to great lengths to show grace to everyone. Should God not create at all because many freely resist Him in the world God created and thus deprive many others of the greatest good possible?
6. “Why did God create people He knew would reject and be separated from Him forever?”
Rom 9:22
[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
2Cr 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Ti 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
Hbr 9:21
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Rev 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Despite God’s desire that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), many still resist.
7. What if some become more resistant no matter how loving God is?
Isaiah 5:4; & Matt 23:37?
Isa 5:4
What could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Mat 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9
And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Mat 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16
Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17
[Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18
And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19
[Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20
Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21
And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22
And he that shall swear by heaven sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24
[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26
[Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,
Mat 23:30
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33
[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous bloodshed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
8. Should God not create those who would respond to His love simply because others would refuse it?
Luk 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
God’s will supersedes mankind’s will both selectively and collectively; whether we regard it believe it, or fully understand it!!!
Luk 11:3
Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4
And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
9. What if God created a world in which a maximal balance of least condemned and most redeemed was realized?
This is not unloving. He is all knowing ever present and omnipotent. What we do and decide to do with our Free will is known from the beginning to the end by the Alpha and Omega. He sees from the outside of time and space contingencies and restrains, the boundaries given to man, because our knowledge and wisdom is limited and finite (RG.)
Jud 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15
This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
10. “Why wouldn’t God, from the start, make us like heavens saints-loving God while unable to sin?”
“Even Angels and heavens host have free will! The Devil and a third of the angels fell for trying to usurp the throne of GOD. Every idol that mankind puts before GOD is at enmity with the only true Holy Creator and only REAL GOD!” (RG.)
Exd 20:1
And God spake all these words, saying,
Exd 20:2
I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exd 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Robust freedom on earth-to embrace freely God’s grace or resist it-is a requirement for arriving at one’s final destiny. Our earthly direction is “sealed” in the afterlife; our heart’s desire is finally granted-God or no God. So God couldn’t have created a heaven-like state in which the redeemed no longer sin without damaging this vitally important freedom. (Or perhaps, rather than “sealing” us from sin in the afterlife, God simply foreknows that no saint will actually freely sin, guaranteeing a sin-free condition in the final state.) Finally, because God has so fully given of Himself to make salvation freely available through His Son, we can confidently entrust any lingering questions about hell to His excellent character.
By: Paul Copan ( is in Italicized blue print excerpts)
Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).
This bears repeating
Yes a Good GOD will absolutely do as He says He will do! He will do this for perfectly just reasons, that are higher than a total accummulation of all mankind's, in total, reasonings, religions and ideologies...simply because HE is the Creator, The Alpha and the Omega, the only wise GOD and All knowing and All powerful!!!
He has and continues to demonstrate His LOVE and will unto the end
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
cman
your view of scriptures is yours i suppose
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
GOD is absolutely black and white, truly and thoroughly unwaveringly objective about what he says; Where on the other hand most men are not...that is the reason for the gulf between man and GOD!!!
Man likes to be his own god and/or hew out his own gods, and live by his own rationales, ideologies, religions, and justifications.
Jesus Christ is GOD's solution. Man's solution is to innovate their own individualized solutions!!!
How You use your free will choices are entirely up to you; that won't change one iota or jot and tittle of GOD's Word, HIS Ways or HIS Acts!!!
Have a Nice Man's Day!!!
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Me thinks that Rainbow Girl is angry for some reason. ... Sounding upset today?
So not having a relationship with God now becomes the ultimate, infinite sin!!, huh? ... Wow!! :unsure: Ya know, when I usually think of the meaning and understanding of the word 'sin', I usually think of associated and related concepts like, 'immoral', 'unethical', 'vile', 'wrong', and the like attributes that depict, ... ohh what's the word I'm looking for, ... Oh yeah, ... evil!
(And as you probably know, a *lot* of Christians think this way too. <_< )
A person becoming evil
, and that for no better reason than not having a relationship with your God, huh? I mean, that's what it would have to boil down to, wouldn't it? We're freekin' evil. 
Have you ever *asked* anyone of us evil
people _why_ we no longer/have ever wanted any relationship with this deity of yours? ... Huh? Have you? ... Or have you just _presumed_ (assisted by the unquestionable dictates of scripture, of course) why us evil 
people have rejected God, and that we did so in such a prideful and capricious manner?
The answers might surprise you. I know it did me when I was first getting to know various atheist individuals. And there was a helluva lot more to it than this same ol' tired yarn about how they simply don't want to submit to any Higher Authority and wanting to "be their own gods".
Really!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
In my view the argument is not as black & white as God vs. Man. Who physically wrote the bible? Man. There's no more reason to suppose that the bible is THE Word o' God than any other of a number of "holy" books. To me it's not God on one side and men on the other, but men in an inumerable number of corners, got maybe in all of them, some of them, or maybe none of them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
It is my belief and understanding that it is GOD's Word; Not all believe GOD; but I am convinced and believe HIS testimony concerning Himself and HIS Word!!!
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
All those verses..(too many to repeat in yet another post) and you never get to discussing the verses. I wonder what the point of this was?
I also question the motivation behind starting a thread like this.
BTW - just how arrogant is it for one person to decide who goes to hell and who doesn't?
"Scholars" disagree on every aspect of anything worth discussing and even what isn't worth discussing, Biblically speaking.
BUT - as I recall Jesus had a few simple things - Love God with all your heart, soul, ,mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. Have mercy and compassion.
I see miles of verses and all I read is "Bitterness and hatred."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
It baffles me that anyone would uphold this doctrine about hell as good and just and loving...as somehow beneficial to ?? God? true believers?humans in general?
What is the point, other than fear motivation?
Comparing the hell doctrine to a parent's loving boundary does not make sense at all. Parents don't destroy or annihilate their imperfect children, or even their wildly messed up children.
Plus, IMO, it-thebelief in hell for the unbelievers-would sooner or later start dividing people into the two categories--acceptable, like me(heaven bound), and unacceptable, not like me(the hell bound).
Which might be exactly the point. Make the consequences for not believing or leaving the True Faith really high...
So glad we don't live under religious laws/religious rulers in this country.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Perspective, Geisha. What it means to follow Jesus truly is a subjective matter of perspective. I believe I do follow Jesus (though I don't label myself Christian) in many ways, though certainly not perfectly.
First off Abi, I do believe that you are a person who strives for peace and to love your neighbor. Blessed are the peacemakers. . . right? My understanding goes something like this, I obey out of love for God. It does speak in the gospels about obeying God if we love Him. In the whole NT in fact. What motivates me is not my own goodness, or even moral character, I sadly lack in these qualities. What motivates me and keeps me going is my desire to love Him. I pretty much fail left to my inclinations as they are usually focused on ME!! :) So, Jesus is my example, but to really understand how He operates, I need to know Him.
There is actually nothing subjective in that, if you consider His ways. They are revealed to us in scripture. It is so filled with the most amazing wisdom about life and love. His ways are so much better than my own notions. Perfect really. What Jesus did here on earth, was nothing short of mindblowing, yet so simple. He always brought everything back to the human condition, which He so understands.
Consider if you will, the woman at the well. She was about as outcast as you can get. As someone I know likes to say, Vegas would have run her out of town. Yet, Jesus, who should have been NOwhere near her. . . had a drink with her. Seeing through her outer hardness into her heart, He offered HER of all people, what she truly needed most to become whole. Not only forgivness, but everlasting life. He did not point her to external conformity to religious rituals, but showed her the proper heart attitude. He also did not just ignore her sins, but He exposed them and lovingly showed her how to get past it and become whole. This should have been impossible given her situation. He understood the human condition.
It is an incredibly tender account.
She in turn, recognized who He is. He had such an impact on her that she was eager to share Him with the towns people, who she had been avoiding because of her reputation. Her witness and honesty about her own life impressed them so much that they had to come see Jesus for themselves.
He did this again and again. . . consider the woman caught in adultery. . . they were fixin to kill her!
So, although we can emulate Jesus, we must have a way to give that makes one whole. This gift of forgiveness and eternal life is imparted from Him and Him alone. We don't hold the keys to heaven. . . God does.
And this is where I begin to get lost and become unsure of what you are asking. I think you are asking either a) how I can reject Christianity after being one or b) how I can reject the notion that there are false believers within Christianity.
I'll start with a) how could I reject it after claiming it:
First, you have to understand I was not raised Christian. My parents were non practicing Jews. I did pick up on bits and pieces of Christianity while growing up, because our small community was largely composed of Christians. I even when to catechism (sp) for a time as a child, because I was curious and interested. Outside of that, my only real exposure to Christianity was with Jehovah Witnesses (I never became one but I did study with some for a time) and TWI. I think by your definition of Christianity, then, I may never have truly been a Christian?
I also went to a number of churches off and on both before and after my time with TWI. What they taught just never sat right with me. Truly, even when I look back on my time with TWI, I had issues with things that were taught, though some of it I did believe and some of it I desperately wanted to believe and some of it I wanted to reject and some of it I wished I could reject.
After leaving TWI, I spent quite a few years studying a variety or religions. I eventually realized that what I was really looking for was that "connection to God" that I felt I had as a child. TWI gave me head knowledge, but in gaining that head knowledge I lost any sense of a true connection with God that I once had. Eventually, I decided to return to my roots and study the relgion of my heritage. There I found the peace that I had been searching for, for nearly my entire life. There I have at least begun to find that connection with God that I had lost for so many years.
That said, while I don't label myself a Christian, I don't reject Jesus either. (and because of that I am sure there are plenty within Judaism, though certainly not all, who would reject me!). I very much believe in what Jesus taught and I do believe he was sent by God to teach, as were many of the great men and woman of the O.T.
So, while I label myself Jewish, there are those who would not. While I don't label myself a Christian, there are those who probably would, if they fully understood what I do and do not believe.
Which sort of brings me full circle to part b) how I can reject the notion that there are false believers within Christianity:
For this, I think I would need to understand your perspective of false believers within Christianity. From my perspective, it does not matter what label you assign to your religious beliefs. In the end, Christian, Jew, Pagan, you will have some of it right and some of it wrong. What does matter, at least to God IMO, is that you are learning and growing. That your heart is with Him.
I hope somewhere in all of that I have answered your question. If I haven't, then please be patient with me and try to re-state it your question so I can try again.
Well you did answer my question, and I thank-you. The most telling for me was the part about your heart being with Him. I loved that. Again, the woman at the well, she was up front about her religious identity crisis. . . and as her own religion had rejected her. . . she still had a bad taste in her mouth . . . her thing was. . . what difference does it really make?. . . you go here, they go there. . . your fathers and ours say this and that. Jesus was actually pointing her to the Father. She said, I know Messiah is coming and when He does He will explain all this to us. But, then she finally put it all together, He had so penetrated the hardness and hurt in her heart. . . she got it. This was He who would show the way.
That is why He could say. . . come unto to ME all ye that labor and are heavy laden. . . . and I will give you rest. A perfect illustration of Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Maybe you can begin to see what attracts me so to Him. My questions are in the next post. Figure I would break it up a bit! :) Your post is a very worthy of a thoughtful and honest reply.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
RG, do you see the similarity between what you are preaching and what we were taught in TWI?
The attitudes that exude from your posts?
'I didn't write the book, God did'
'if you don't believe my way then you are wrong/off the Word/out of fellowship, and I am right'
'if you don't believe my way you are rejecting God'
Even the 'black and white' God?
All you have to do is read the OT to know that God isn't black and white and that He was full of compassion and forgiveness even before Jesus' life. Moses broke the law and married an 'unbeliever.' David ate of the shew bread. Abraham was going to commit child sacrifice. Sarah laughed at God. I could go on and on and on. Even the great ones from the OT didn't have it perfect and yet, God loved them and forgave them.
When you were in TWI, were you not equally convinced that you had the "only truth" and everyone else was misled, an unbeliever, a rejector of God? Do you not recall how hard-hearted and unloving it all became?
Do you not see how you appear to have fallen into that same way of thinking all over again?
[As a side note - am I the only one who sees the contradiction in the notion that a God who so hated human sacrifice in the OT would set up a "plan" whereby human sacrifice (Jesus on the cross) was the ONLY way to redeem man?]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.