Well summarized Abigail...at least from a christian perspective
<name removed> do not even your epistles speak somewher of those who "know not God" yet do the things of God, as being better than those who know God but do not do the things of God?
This is not personal so please don't take it that way.
There are too many people who really dislike me and for good reasons for me to worry about taking things personally on an internet forum (by the way I was editing the last post while you were composing your last one)
I thought I read you are a neopagan? Is that right?
That's the shorthand term that I sometimes use if my beliefs need to be categorized. Sure.
The bible is very well documented more than any other ancient book. They would have been very careful in copying it down. We have more copies than any other old book. We are even finding more.
No matter how careful someone is in copying something down, mistakes happen, no matter what they "would have" done or wanted to do. The OT was also written in a language that did not write down its vowels, a huge problem in translation. The copyists' errors in the NT are inumerable. Many are just mispellings and other minor things, others affect doctrine. The many textual variances in NT manuscripts is why there is such a thing as critical texts, to attempt to reconcile the differences. I agree that there are more copies than any other old book, even if you ignore copies made since the invention of the printing press. This speaks more to its popularity than its objectiveness.
And even if every copy was faithfully handed down without changes, making it identical to the original, and accurately translated into modern languages, what we still have is an accurate translation of an accurate copy of somebody's opinion about God.
What is it you trust so about the oral tradition in Paganism that leaves some much room for doubt in the written documents we have for the bible?
I use them for a couple of different reasons. First, because I recognize them as books that you use, and thus assume they communicate well to you. So, while I suppose I could have said the same thing without them, I think my meaning is more easily communicated by using them.
I was teasing. . :)
I saw it earlier and got a chuckle. Believe me when I say, while I disagree with you doctrinally on some things, I do believe you are a loving soul with nothing but the best of intent. And man, am I thankful that (IMO) intent of the heart is what matters most to God. I don't think he could care one lick (for instance) if someone is dunked or not. Similarly, I'm not convinced he cares whether or not we eat pork. Nor, do I believe he cares if we call him Allah or God or whatever.
Linguistically when we use the term God. . . it is basically saying the same thing. . . Creator. . . Lord. . . With Islam the similarities are there in this respect. . . Islam, Christianity, and even Judaism are all monotheistic faiths. . . One God. . . but, it ends there. Islam is based on the premise that the Christian and Jewish bible wrongly define and describe God. It is not an issue of language but an issue definition concerning God. Their God is hard and remote. . . . not personal, does not have a Son and does not love unconditionally. Not to mention a denial of the triune nature of God which is a central doctrine in the Christian faith.
When Muhammad was around so was the complete cannon. . . . it was not a matter of it being corrupt, but of him rejecting the God of the bible. His system changed the attributes of the God of the bible. The heart of a father we find in God is rejected. . . . the divinity Of His Son. . . . . and the person of the Holy Spirit. . . . Same word used to call on him. . . but a different God.
What, exactly, does it mean to follow Jesus? It certainly must be more than TWI taught - giving lip service to a couple of verses while inflicting pain upon your brother and sister, yes? It certainly must be more than simply labelling yourself as Christian or Jew or Muslem, no? WHY would he tell the rich young ruler to sell his things and follow him? What was Jesus really saying? Perhaps the rich young ruler was caught up in the love of power and greed and Jesus was simply telling him to give up that love and replace it with a love for his fellow man?
Well yes, it does mean more than smacking one upside the head with the bible while plotting their rape. Although I claimed Christianity as my faith in TWI. . . . there was nothing in my heart or life that exemplified any love or care for others. . . it was more about being right. That is the truth. . . the worst sins I ever committed were in TWI. Jesus came into the world to save it. . . not to condemn it. I was all about condeming in TWI. Judging others. . . deciding about them. I share the gospel now and express the love God has given me in deed. Well, I try!
A Christians life and world view is bibically grounded in all aspects of life, and even more specifically in light of Jesus Christ. A Christian should be marked out by their love for others. . . .sadly this is not always the case.
The parable of the good samaritan is a perfect illustration of true Christianity. Not only did it reveal the emptiness of the religious system of the day, but the man who actually helped him did it knowing he would get nothing in return. That should be our hearts as followers of Jesus.
I think Christians can forget that we are not self-righteous, but come to the table empty handed.
The pharisees had elevated hostility toward the wicked and those THEY thought were unrighteous to the status of a virtue. . . thereby nullifying the second great commandments. . . who is your neighbor? The same people the pharisees condemned Jesus went around healing and forgiving.
Jesus commands us to love our enemies and bless those that persecute you. A blessing is a big deal. The bible says the earth is the Lords and all it contains. . . but some forget it says. . . the world and those who dwell in it. If we truly love God . . . we love others. . . how we are treated is inconsequential. Jesus was the example for this.
We are to be forgiving people. . . the mark of a Christian. Which means you forgive and do not continue to harp on it. We look to Jesus as our only source of truth and all we have is hid in Him.
Well, yes on the rich young ruler, that the riches of this world were nothing compared to what Jesus offered him. God says follow me and what you get is GOD. . . that is the hope of contentment. The blessing of the Lord makes rich and he adds no sorrow to it. Then we love others with the great love we are given.
A Good God does not "SEND," the operative word for me, to hell or anywhere else. What about a bad god? Where does a bad god "SEND" anybody?
Kimberly,
You are entitled to Your opinions and of course your selection of gods; Although, I would have more respect for your opinion, if you, at all seemed to have read this thread and were responding to it as a whole. Other than breezing in, to offer your unsubstantiated opinion...in other words... opinion lacking enough substance to discuss;
Perhaps bothering to read the thread would help and adding some rationale to your opinion??? Like for instance why does The GOD of The Bible not have absolute rule, right, authority and ability and justification to send any of his creations to hell for abandoning Him. Incidentally it ultimately involves their individual free will choice.
Discussing The GOD of The Bible or any of His actions will absolutely include and involve a discussion of His Word and His Will to be credible and substanciated. Otherwise it is a bias and unbased opinion and becomes in essense a reactionary feeling being expressed. That is not being fair to GOD who You are accusing of being unfair and unjust. You expect His fairness...He expects Yours!!! RG.
That usage of the word "send" seems to dictate absolute rule and control of the sender without freedom of will or thought or choice of the sendee.
Where is your power as the "sendee"???? I can tell You it is in your free will to choose!!! RG
Send me to the moon, let me dance among the stars....ya'll know that song. Tiptoe Through The Tulips is another good one.
Oh you have got to be kidding! I bet your God is very proud of this display of brotherly Christian love.
And if telling the truth makes me go to hell than I want the hand basket too!
I'll be offering up the hand basket for ya eyes - with a bunch of shrimp, crawfish and boiled crab - oh never mind the boiled crabs are already posting here - See ya in Hell - first one to take the rule from the Devil wins eyes
I'll be offering up the hand basket for ya eyes - with a bunch of shrimp, crawfish and boiled crab - oh never mind the boiled crabs are already posting here - See ya in Hell - first one to take the rule from the Devil wins eyes
Ooooh Gator bites and hush puppies too! Hope you like losing!
Does he save us from our sin by dying? Or does he save us from our sin by setting the example of being WILLING to die because he so LOVED? I don't believe the act of dying, in and of itself, saved anyone. I don't believe resurrection saved anyone. I do believe by following the example he set, we do cast away our sins and become the loving people God desires us to be. We are saved from sin by following the example of love. By setting aside greed, lust, selfishness, etc. etc.
Well, yes and no. . . . YES He does teach us to love by this very act, but no, He doesn't save us from our sins by teaching us how to make ourselves good enough, I am sure you understand from the OT about God's holy nature. I am also sure you understand the fall of man.
We understand that . . . . try as we might. . . the ten commandments are impossible for us to keep. Heck, we can't even do the first two!! :) Which leaves us in a rather hopeless situation. The whole point of Christ sacrifice is that God actually became flesh, lived on the earth, knew what it was like to live as a man(So, he gets our situation) and He became our sacrifice. This is actually a bit bigger than someone paying your speeding ticket for you. :)
It only takes one offense against a Holy God. . . . I can do that before breakfast. . . . in fact a good Christian prayer is "God, I have kept my thoughts on you, not sinned at all and have done as you require, but now I need your help. . . . because I am going to get out of bed"
What a Christian understands is that no code of conduct will ever make us right with God. We couldn't keep it. So, in order for God to put things right, (remember He did this while we were still at odds with Him), He made a way for His wrath against sin to be satisfied and for us to have a relationship with Him. To enjoy Him.
His wrath? Well, God is Holy and cannot abide sin. . . . so if God is truly just and He claims He is. . . He would have to mete out judgement. . . enter Jesus. . . now, here is the rub. . . He took on that wrath and judgement in our place. BTW, no mere man could stand that. The sins of the world?
He became sin who knew no sin ( He was sinless. . . a perfect sacrifice) . God poured out what was owed to us on Jesus.
So now, God can treat us like we lived Jesus perfect life. . . . no sin. . . . brillant really!
All He requires is that we repent of our sins(Gotta see em first):) and that we believe the whole thing . . . . confessing Him Lord in our lives. Following Him. . . .
We do tend to struggle with it. At least I did. . . trying to make it my own way. I had to face it. . . I am human. LOL
The gift of eternal life. . . . which is once we die we get up again. . . . IF IF IF Jesus was resurrected. The two resurrections . . . Christ and the believer. . . stand and fall together. . . if He wasn't raised we will not be raised. Jesus has broken the power of death.
It is my hope of resurrection that make all the efforts and sacrifices. . . . worth it. . . . no work done in His name is wasted in light of eternal glory and reward.
Now conversely, what if we reject so great an offer to be reconciled at such a cost? By our own choosing we accept a four letter word. . . . :) Some call it HE double hockey sticks. LOL
Jesus is the way God has declared Himself to us for the last time. . . . that is how a Christian knows God.
And Abi, I would LOVE to discuss the epistles and Isaiah with you. . . I would be honored.
Babe - the last time I lost was when I got married... but hey that was round one and in the end the winners were my kids so the others here can take their hell fire and brimstone to bed with them and keep warm at night
But for you eyes - I'll get those gator bites and no one make better hush puppies than me
Ooooh Gator bites and hush puppies too! Hope you like losing!
Babe - the last time I lost was when I got married... but hey that was round one and in the end the winners were my kids so the others here can take their hell fire and brimstone to bed with them and keep warm at night
But for you eyes - I'll get those gator bites and no one make better hush puppies than me
So you have experience losing to women? When I win I'll make you the chief cook and bottle washer.
Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?
Indeed, why? Why, being All Knowing, All wise, All love, make a human, who through no fault of their own(the fall!) is so flawed, He can't abide his own creation unless they in life make certain decisions about belief that make them okay enough for heaven. All others--as far as I a can tell, the vast majority of all humans, get Hell?
And yet, on the other hand, the same god portrayed this way is talked of having great love for humans, unconditional, sacrificial love, a just god.
This concept of hell doesn't fit together for me. In a story it would be a character issue, out of character.
It is not a universally held belief among Christians, either. I could understand hell for evil people, but this hell takes in more than evil people, it takes in those who are not of the right beliefs but who mau have lived wonderful lives, which makes justice seem missing.
Heaven is not so appreciated without a bit of hell along the way. Hell makes reaching heaven so much sweeter.
I believe lately in reincarnation, so eventually we all reach heaven. We are all here in the school of love in the high calling of God's wondrous and diverse tapestry of life.
Pure darkness surrounds the greatest objects of beauty of which we would not be able to see objects obscured by too much of the heaven’s brilliance.
It is hell which makes heaven visible.
If hell were more like heaven then the heart could no longer perceive definitive character and virtue.
It is hell and heaven which facilitates reason, free will, autonomy, individualism and makes “the soul” possible.
How else could we "quench fiery darts" if we were not partially at one with the element of fire, often associated with hell?
Luke 3:16 KJV
John answered , saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh , the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Ephesians 4:10 KJV
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Comment: We are baptized with fire (hell) and the holy spirit (heaven).
The bible is very well documented more than any other ancient book. They would have been very careful in copying it down. We have more copies than any other old book. We are even finding more.
Keep in mind that much of this is because 1) during the fall of the Roman empire, most of the great libraries were destroyed that had documents predating the bible, and 2) once Christianity became a major religion, they banned and destroyed most if not all other books that they could find, including many Christian texts that didn't like up exactly with what the Christian rulers wanted taught.
It is not a universally held belief among Christians, either. I could understand hell for evil people, but this hell takes in more than evil people, it takes in those who are not of the right beliefs but who mau have lived wonderful lives, which makes justice seem missing.
I would say that even then it falls within what you stated above. Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing, deity who lives outside of time and space create evil people to begin with? In particular, why would he create people who hurt others? Was it really necessary for VPW to have been created with the intent of raping women? Was it really necessary for "god" to create Hitler and the Nazis who killed millions of innocent people? What harm could that little girl in Florida have done to deserve having her parents (or whoever the murderers are) created with the goal of killing her?
Seriously, what lesson could a dead newborn baby learn as her 15 year old mother flushes her down the toilet at her high school dance? The amount of death, suffering, and destruction in the world is a sign that either there is no god, or that he sees no value for us.
Now there ya go being logical again P-Mosh...don't you realize that logic has nothing to do with the "true believers?" BTW my definition of a true believer is "the most dangerous form of human life on this planet"
Are evil people "created", as posted above? Are they born that way? Do they have no choice but to be what they are? Was Ghandi born to protest? Why do so many so easily follow Hitlers, Stalins and Wierwilles? Like dogs, the beta wolves.
If Hell does not exist, it is another control mechanism for the dogs. i.e. "Children, obey your parents, or die"
If it Hell does exist, we're screwed. Why question a god?
Why, being All Knowing, All wise, All love, make a human, who through no fault of their own(the fall!) is so flawed, He can't abide his own creation unless they in life make certain decisions about belief that make them okay enough for heaven. All others--as far as I a can tell, the vast majority of all humans, get Hell?
And yet, on the other hand, the same god portrayed this way is talked of having great love for humans, unconditional, sacrificial love, a just god.
This concept of hell doesn't fit together for me. In a story it would be a character issue, out of character.
It is not a universally held belief among Christians, either. I could understand hell for evil people, but this hell takes in more than evil people, it takes in those who are not of the right beliefs but who mau have lived wonderful lives, which makes justice seem missing.
I tend to agree that this concept of 'who is going to hell' seems harsh and 'out of character'. However the Bible does say that God knows the hearts of men. To me that indicates that his understanding of man transcends religious boundries (which are man made) and names (such as Elohim or Allah or whatever). So in saying this it is my contention that only the evil will face whatever Hell truly is. Those that live as God would like regardless of their earthly religion would by their very nature be included in the roll call at the Bema (or heaven or whatever you want to call it).
OK OK - I'll split hell with ya eyes - you still get the back forty - you can work the dog shift on "bless patrol..."
I'll take the back forty, it should be quieter there but you can keep those bless patrol on the front ranch! I'll take the dogs!
The amount of death, suffering, and destruction in the world is a sign that either there is no god, or that he sees no value for us.
Mr P-Mosh,
:) the minute you acknowledge something as being “better”, you are committing yourself to an objective point of reference.
If you have a moment to read this, I would be interested in what you think? I know you are a thinker, one I respect.
". . . emptiness that results from the loss of the transcendent is stark and devastating, philosophically and existentially. Indeed, the denial of an objective moral law, based on the compulsion to deny the existence of God, results ultimately in the denial of evil itself.
In an attempt to escape what they call the contradiction between a good God and a world of evil, atheists try to dance around the reality of a moral law (and hence, a moral law giver) by introducing terms like “evolutionary ethics”. The one who raises the question against God in effect plays God while denying He exists. Now one may wonder: why do you actually need a moral law giver if you have a moral law? The answer is because the questioner and the issue he or she questions always involve the essential value of a person. You can never talk of morality in abstraction. Persons are implicit to the question and the object of the question. In a nutshell, positing a moral law without a moral law giver would be equivalent to raising the question of evil without a questioner. So you cannot have a moral law unless the moral law itself is intrinsically woven into personhood, which means it demands an intrinsically worthy person if the moral law itself is valued. And that person can only be God.
Our inability to alter what is actual frustrates our grandiose delusions of being sovereign over everything. Yet the truth is we cannot escape the existential rub by running from a moral law. Objective moral values exist only if God exists. Is it all right, for example, to mutilate babies for entertainment? Every reasonable person will say “no.” We know that objective moral values do exist. Therefore, God must exist. Examining those premises and their validity presents a very strong argument.
The prophet Jeremiah noted, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9, ESV). Similarly, the apostle James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:22-25). "
it seems there are at least 5 basic pespectives one can take when interpreting our experience
such as our experience of: the bible, God, Jesus, death...and Hell
loosely...
1st person subjective interpretation: the perspective of a very young child, or self-centered adults, or magical thinking. "my beliefs = absolute truth." I, me, my. God is interpreted via my fantastic imagination.
2nd person intersubjective = the perspective of a child waking to their place in a family, or law-abiding adults, or mythological thinking. "our beliefs = absolute truth." We, our, us. God is interpreted via our cultural story.
3rd person objective = the perspective of a young adult after leaving the family and entering college, or reasonable adults, or rational thinking. "proven evidence = absolute truth." It, this, him....God is interpreted objectively.
4th person interobjective = the perspective of one who sees our changing objective positions in time, or social adult, or pluralist thinking. "its all relative = there is no absolute truth." Its, these...God is interpreted as a flexible flowing system...the sum of all our objective perspectives.
5th person aperspectival = the perspective of one who notices our development (or not) through all the above perspectives. Each perspective is valid, plays a role, but is also partial and limited...but all perspectives are of the one and self-same occasion....and God is all in all. Truth, goodness, and beauty. Self, culture, and the cosmos. All perspectives work better together, than they do at war with each other.
as life goes on...we are developing (or not) our capacity to take each perspective, so there is a spectrum of possibilities (in depths and degrees) in each perspective. Using subjectivity as an example...one can loosely describe the journey as pre-developed subjectivity, developing subjectivity, and developed subjectivity (and all points in between).
same for inter-subjectivity, objectivity, inter-objectivity, and even aperspectival.
I am short on time, but I wanted to respond to you. You have another post in here somewhere I want to respond to as well, if I can. I am going to attempt to place my responses in red within your reply, so the chain of thought isn't lost. :)
Does he save us from our sin by dying? Or does he save us from our sin by setting the example of being WILLING to die because he so LOVED? I don't believe the act of dying, in and of itself, saved anyone. I don't believe resurrection saved anyone. I do believe by following the example he set, we do cast away our sins and become the loving people God desires us to be. We are saved from sin by following the example of love. By setting aside greed, lust, selfishness, etc. etc.
Well, yes and no. . . . YES He does teach us to love by this very act, but no, He doesn't save us from our sins by teaching us how to make ourselves good enough, I am sure you understand from the OT about God's holy nature. I am also sure you understand the fall of man.
I do understand the fall of man, as it is taught within Christianity. I also have issues with the teachings and concepts. It makes no sense to me that a loving God would impune the errors of two upon the entire world. Judaism does not believe in the fall of mankind the way Christianity does. Somewhere in the back (or middle) pages of the doctrinal forum there are some threads I participated in that deal with this issue.
This simplest way to explain it is that the Tree of Knowledge was always meant to be eaten of. It wasn't that they ate from the tree but that they ate of it before they were properly prepared. This resulted in chaos. Now, mankind must help eliminate that chaos and help restore order. That is quite oversimplified, but time is short so I am doing the best I can here.
We understand that . . . . try as we might. . . the ten commandments are impossible for us to keep. Heck, we can't even do the first two!! :) Which leaves us in a rather hopeless situation. The whole point of Christ sacrifice is that God actually became flesh, lived on the earth, knew what it was like to live as a man(So, he gets our situation) and He became our sacrifice. This is actually a bit bigger than someone paying your speeding ticket for you. :)
I understand you see it that way. But, it is not how I see it. I believe that we will never achieve perfection in our lifetime, but that we are to continue to strive for it and it is in the striving and failing that we grow and become better. Moreover, I do not believe an all loving, all knowing God ever had a need to become like man in order to understand man. I believe he has always understood man and knows we are but dust.
It only takes one offense against a Holy God. . . . I can do that before breakfast. . . . in fact a good Christian prayer is "God, I have kept my thoughts on you, not sinned at all and have done as you require, but now I need your help. . . . because I am going to get out of bed"
And again, this is not a concept I can wrap my mind around and still see God as all loving. Heck, I am a mother and an imperfect human and I can still love my children bigger than that. When I read the OT, the laws and the continual breaking of the laws that occured by man kind, I see a story of a Father who loved his children no matter how many times they messed up. Just as we continue to love our children no matter how many times they mess up.
What a Christian understands is that no code of conduct will ever make us right with God. We couldn't keep it. So, in order for God to put things right, (remember He did this while we were still at odds with Him), He made a way for His wrath against sin to be satisfied and for us to have a relationship with Him. To enjoy Him.
You are correct, no code of conduct in and of itself will make us right with God. Nor is even God's code of conduct from the OT without its difficulties, because for every rule there will always be situations that require an exception. I believe that is one of the big lessons from the OT. No rule will fit every situation. This is why God looks on the heart and not just the action. Moreover, there were many OT men and women who had a relationship with God before Jesus was ever born.
His wrath? Well, God is Holy and cannot abide sin. . . . so if God is truly just and He claims He is. . . He would have to mete out judgement. . . enter Jesus. . . now, here is the rub. . . He took on that wrath and judgement in our place. BTW, no mere man could stand that. The sins of the world?
I disagree. Yes, God is just and holy and loving. Yes, he gives Judgement, but not on the letter of the law. Even David ate of the shew bread, remember?
He became sin who knew no sin ( He was sinless. . . a perfect sacrifice) . God poured out what was owed to us on Jesus.
So now, God can treat us like we lived Jesus perfect life. . . . no sin. . . . brillant really!
The concept is not one that sits peacefully in my heart. The notion that someone can go out and rape and murder, rob people blind and get a "free pass" because they believe in Jesus and someone who is honest and loving their whole life but doesn't believe in and perhaps never heard of Jesus is condemned to hell or gravedome or whatever term you want to use.
And Abi, I would LOVE to discuss the epistles and Isaiah with you. . . I would be honored.
It would truly be a labor of love. I have been wanting to do a comparative study of the Epistles and the OT from the perspective of the teachings of Judaism, but it would be a lenghty process, to say the least. If you would be interested in picking a starting point from the Espistles and starting a thread, I'd be happy to work on it with you. Just be patient in that I may not get to the thread more than once or twice a week because of time contraints and my desire to really "do it right" so to speak. :)
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Well summarized Abigail...at least from a christian perspective
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Oakspear
And even if every copy was faithfully handed down without changes, making it identical to the original, and accurately translated into modern languages, what we still have is an accurate translation of an accurate copy of somebody's opinion about God.
One has nothing to do with the other in my mind.Link to comment
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geisha779
Abi,
I use them for a couple of different reasons. First, because I recognize them as books that you use, and thus assume they communicate well to you. So, while I suppose I could have said the same thing without them, I think my meaning is more easily communicated by using them.
I was teasing. . :)
I saw it earlier and got a chuckle. Believe me when I say, while I disagree with you doctrinally on some things, I do believe you are a loving soul with nothing but the best of intent. And man, am I thankful that (IMO) intent of the heart is what matters most to God. I don't think he could care one lick (for instance) if someone is dunked or not. Similarly, I'm not convinced he cares whether or not we eat pork. Nor, do I believe he cares if we call him Allah or God or whatever.
Linguistically when we use the term God. . . it is basically saying the same thing. . . Creator. . . Lord. . . With Islam the similarities are there in this respect. . . Islam, Christianity, and even Judaism are all monotheistic faiths. . . One God. . . but, it ends there. Islam is based on the premise that the Christian and Jewish bible wrongly define and describe God. It is not an issue of language but an issue definition concerning God. Their God is hard and remote. . . . not personal, does not have a Son and does not love unconditionally. Not to mention a denial of the triune nature of God which is a central doctrine in the Christian faith.
When Muhammad was around so was the complete cannon. . . . it was not a matter of it being corrupt, but of him rejecting the God of the bible. His system changed the attributes of the God of the bible. The heart of a father we find in God is rejected. . . . the divinity Of His Son. . . . . and the person of the Holy Spirit. . . . Same word used to call on him. . . but a different God.
What, exactly, does it mean to follow Jesus? It certainly must be more than TWI taught - giving lip service to a couple of verses while inflicting pain upon your brother and sister, yes? It certainly must be more than simply labelling yourself as Christian or Jew or Muslem, no? WHY would he tell the rich young ruler to sell his things and follow him? What was Jesus really saying? Perhaps the rich young ruler was caught up in the love of power and greed and Jesus was simply telling him to give up that love and replace it with a love for his fellow man?
Well yes, it does mean more than smacking one upside the head with the bible while plotting their rape. Although I claimed Christianity as my faith in TWI. . . . there was nothing in my heart or life that exemplified any love or care for others. . . it was more about being right. That is the truth. . . the worst sins I ever committed were in TWI. Jesus came into the world to save it. . . not to condemn it. I was all about condeming in TWI. Judging others. . . deciding about them. I share the gospel now and express the love God has given me in deed. Well, I try!
A Christians life and world view is bibically grounded in all aspects of life, and even more specifically in light of Jesus Christ. A Christian should be marked out by their love for others. . . .sadly this is not always the case.
The parable of the good samaritan is a perfect illustration of true Christianity. Not only did it reveal the emptiness of the religious system of the day, but the man who actually helped him did it knowing he would get nothing in return. That should be our hearts as followers of Jesus.
I think Christians can forget that we are not self-righteous, but come to the table empty handed.
The pharisees had elevated hostility toward the wicked and those THEY thought were unrighteous to the status of a virtue. . . thereby nullifying the second great commandments. . . who is your neighbor? The same people the pharisees condemned Jesus went around healing and forgiving.
Jesus commands us to love our enemies and bless those that persecute you. A blessing is a big deal. The bible says the earth is the Lords and all it contains. . . but some forget it says. . . the world and those who dwell in it. If we truly love God . . . we love others. . . how we are treated is inconsequential. Jesus was the example for this.
We are to be forgiving people. . . the mark of a Christian. Which means you forgive and do not continue to harp on it. We look to Jesus as our only source of truth and all we have is hid in Him.
Well, yes on the rich young ruler, that the riches of this world were nothing compared to what Jesus offered him. God says follow me and what you get is GOD. . . that is the hope of contentment. The blessing of the Lord makes rich and he adds no sorrow to it. Then we love others with the great love we are given.
I would like to answer the rest soon. :)
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Eyesopen
From Kimberly
A Good God does not "SEND," the operative word for me, to hell or anywhere else. What about a bad god? Where does a bad god "SEND" anybody?
Kimberly,
You are entitled to Your opinions and of course your selection of gods; Although, I would have more respect for your opinion, if you, at all seemed to have read this thread and were responding to it as a whole. Other than breezing in, to offer your unsubstantiated opinion...in other words... opinion lacking enough substance to discuss;
Perhaps bothering to read the thread would help and adding some rationale to your opinion??? Like for instance why does The GOD of The Bible not have absolute rule, right, authority and ability and justification to send any of his creations to hell for abandoning Him. Incidentally it ultimately involves their individual free will choice.
Discussing The GOD of The Bible or any of His actions will absolutely include and involve a discussion of His Word and His Will to be credible and substanciated. Otherwise it is a bias and unbased opinion and becomes in essense a reactionary feeling being expressed. That is not being fair to GOD who You are accusing of being unfair and unjust. You expect His fairness...He expects Yours!!! RG.
That usage of the word "send" seems to dictate absolute rule and control of the sender without freedom of will or thought or choice of the sendee.
Where is your power as the "sendee"???? I can tell You it is in your free will to choose!!! RG
Send me to the moon, let me dance among the stars....ya'll know that song. Tiptoe Through The Tulips is another good one.
Oh you have got to be kidding! I bet your God is very proud of this display of brotherly Christian love.
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RumRunner
I'll be offering up the hand basket for ya eyes - with a bunch of shrimp, crawfish and boiled crab - oh never mind the boiled crabs are already posting here - See ya in Hell - first one to take the rule from the Devil wins eyes
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Eyesopen
I am not concerned with your personal problems, They are not the issue. GOD and His Word are the issue; This is a doctrinal thread!!!
What personal problem?
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Eyesopen
Ooooh Gator bites and hush puppies too! Hope you like losing!
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geisha779
Does he save us from our sin by dying? Or does he save us from our sin by setting the example of being WILLING to die because he so LOVED? I don't believe the act of dying, in and of itself, saved anyone. I don't believe resurrection saved anyone. I do believe by following the example he set, we do cast away our sins and become the loving people God desires us to be. We are saved from sin by following the example of love. By setting aside greed, lust, selfishness, etc. etc.
Well, yes and no. . . . YES He does teach us to love by this very act, but no, He doesn't save us from our sins by teaching us how to make ourselves good enough, I am sure you understand from the OT about God's holy nature. I am also sure you understand the fall of man.
We understand that . . . . try as we might. . . the ten commandments are impossible for us to keep. Heck, we can't even do the first two!! :) Which leaves us in a rather hopeless situation. The whole point of Christ sacrifice is that God actually became flesh, lived on the earth, knew what it was like to live as a man(So, he gets our situation) and He became our sacrifice. This is actually a bit bigger than someone paying your speeding ticket for you. :)
It only takes one offense against a Holy God. . . . I can do that before breakfast. . . . in fact a good Christian prayer is "God, I have kept my thoughts on you, not sinned at all and have done as you require, but now I need your help. . . . because I am going to get out of bed"
What a Christian understands is that no code of conduct will ever make us right with God. We couldn't keep it. So, in order for God to put things right, (remember He did this while we were still at odds with Him), He made a way for His wrath against sin to be satisfied and for us to have a relationship with Him. To enjoy Him.
His wrath? Well, God is Holy and cannot abide sin. . . . so if God is truly just and He claims He is. . . He would have to mete out judgement. . . enter Jesus. . . now, here is the rub. . . He took on that wrath and judgement in our place. BTW, no mere man could stand that. The sins of the world?
He became sin who knew no sin ( He was sinless. . . a perfect sacrifice) . God poured out what was owed to us on Jesus.
So now, God can treat us like we lived Jesus perfect life. . . . no sin. . . . brillant really!
All He requires is that we repent of our sins(Gotta see em first):) and that we believe the whole thing . . . . confessing Him Lord in our lives. Following Him. . . .
We do tend to struggle with it. At least I did. . . trying to make it my own way. I had to face it. . . I am human. LOL
The gift of eternal life. . . . which is once we die we get up again. . . . IF IF IF Jesus was resurrected. The two resurrections . . . Christ and the believer. . . stand and fall together. . . if He wasn't raised we will not be raised. Jesus has broken the power of death.
It is my hope of resurrection that make all the efforts and sacrifices. . . . worth it. . . . no work done in His name is wasted in light of eternal glory and reward.
Now conversely, what if we reject so great an offer to be reconciled at such a cost? By our own choosing we accept a four letter word. . . . :) Some call it HE double hockey sticks. LOL
Jesus is the way God has declared Himself to us for the last time. . . . that is how a Christian knows God.
And Abi, I would LOVE to discuss the epistles and Isaiah with you. . . I would be honored.
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RumRunner
Babe - the last time I lost was when I got married... but hey that was round one and in the end the winners were my kids so the others here can take their hell fire and brimstone to bed with them and keep warm at night
But for you eyes - I'll get those gator bites and no one make better hush puppies than me
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Eyesopen
So you have experience losing to women? When I win I'll make you the chief cook and bottle washer.
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RumRunner
You'll be plowing the back forty babe and I will rule the known universe - or hell as it were -
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Eyesopen
Keep dreaming!! And pour me a long glass of whatever you're drinking. :)
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RumRunner
OK OK - I'll split hell with ya eyes - you still get the back forty - you can work the dog shift on "bless patrol..."
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cman
Eventually each person will face themselves.
And a power that can't be fooled.
So the chaff will 'burn' to reveal the wheat.
So does God 'send'?
Or is it inevitably the way it is.
I didn't ask to be born.
But I was.
Even so the spiritual birth happens.
'Must be born of water and spirit'
The labor is still a part of it.
And you have no say about, just like the first birth.
Saved or being saved or not being saved.
Most don't know wtf they are talking about.
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Bramble
Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?
Indeed, why? Why, being All Knowing, All wise, All love, make a human, who through no fault of their own(the fall!) is so flawed, He can't abide his own creation unless they in life make certain decisions about belief that make them okay enough for heaven. All others--as far as I a can tell, the vast majority of all humans, get Hell?
And yet, on the other hand, the same god portrayed this way is talked of having great love for humans, unconditional, sacrificial love, a just god.
This concept of hell doesn't fit together for me. In a story it would be a character issue, out of character.
It is not a universally held belief among Christians, either. I could understand hell for evil people, but this hell takes in more than evil people, it takes in those who are not of the right beliefs but who mau have lived wonderful lives, which makes justice seem missing.
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DrWearWord
Heaven is not so appreciated without a bit of hell along the way. Hell makes reaching heaven so much sweeter.
I believe lately in reincarnation, so eventually we all reach heaven. We are all here in the school of love in the high calling of God's wondrous and diverse tapestry of life.
Pure darkness surrounds the greatest objects of beauty of which we would not be able to see objects obscured by too much of the heaven’s brilliance.
It is hell which makes heaven visible.
If hell were more like heaven then the heart could no longer perceive definitive character and virtue.
It is hell and heaven which facilitates reason, free will, autonomy, individualism and makes “the soul” possible.
How else could we "quench fiery darts" if we were not partially at one with the element of fire, often associated with hell?
Luke 3:16 KJV
John answered , saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh , the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Ephesians 4:10 KJV
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Comment: We are baptized with fire (hell) and the holy spirit (heaven).
:)
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Mister P-Mosh
Keep in mind that much of this is because 1) during the fall of the Roman empire, most of the great libraries were destroyed that had documents predating the bible, and 2) once Christianity became a major religion, they banned and destroyed most if not all other books that they could find, including many Christian texts that didn't like up exactly with what the Christian rulers wanted taught.
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Mister P-Mosh
I would say that even then it falls within what you stated above. Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing, deity who lives outside of time and space create evil people to begin with? In particular, why would he create people who hurt others? Was it really necessary for VPW to have been created with the intent of raping women? Was it really necessary for "god" to create Hitler and the Nazis who killed millions of innocent people? What harm could that little girl in Florida have done to deserve having her parents (or whoever the murderers are) created with the goal of killing her?
Seriously, what lesson could a dead newborn baby learn as her 15 year old mother flushes her down the toilet at her high school dance? The amount of death, suffering, and destruction in the world is a sign that either there is no god, or that he sees no value for us.
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RumRunner
Now there ya go being logical again P-Mosh...don't you realize that logic has nothing to do with the "true believers?" BTW my definition of a true believer is "the most dangerous form of human life on this planet"
Good posts BTW
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Bolshevik
Are evil people "created", as posted above? Are they born that way? Do they have no choice but to be what they are? Was Ghandi born to protest? Why do so many so easily follow Hitlers, Stalins and Wierwilles? Like dogs, the beta wolves.
If Hell does not exist, it is another control mechanism for the dogs. i.e. "Children, obey your parents, or die"
If it Hell does exist, we're screwed. Why question a god?
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Eyesopen
I tend to agree that this concept of 'who is going to hell' seems harsh and 'out of character'. However the Bible does say that God knows the hearts of men. To me that indicates that his understanding of man transcends religious boundries (which are man made) and names (such as Elohim or Allah or whatever). So in saying this it is my contention that only the evil will face whatever Hell truly is. Those that live as God would like regardless of their earthly religion would by their very nature be included in the roll call at the Bema (or heaven or whatever you want to call it).
I'll take the back forty, it should be quieter there but you can keep those bless patrol on the front ranch! I'll take the dogs!
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geisha779
Mr P-Mosh,
:) the minute you acknowledge something as being “better”, you are committing yourself to an objective point of reference.
If you have a moment to read this, I would be interested in what you think? I know you are a thinker, one I respect.
". . . emptiness that results from the loss of the transcendent is stark and devastating, philosophically and existentially. Indeed, the denial of an objective moral law, based on the compulsion to deny the existence of God, results ultimately in the denial of evil itself.
In an attempt to escape what they call the contradiction between a good God and a world of evil, atheists try to dance around the reality of a moral law (and hence, a moral law giver) by introducing terms like “evolutionary ethics”. The one who raises the question against God in effect plays God while denying He exists. Now one may wonder: why do you actually need a moral law giver if you have a moral law? The answer is because the questioner and the issue he or she questions always involve the essential value of a person. You can never talk of morality in abstraction. Persons are implicit to the question and the object of the question. In a nutshell, positing a moral law without a moral law giver would be equivalent to raising the question of evil without a questioner. So you cannot have a moral law unless the moral law itself is intrinsically woven into personhood, which means it demands an intrinsically worthy person if the moral law itself is valued. And that person can only be God.
Our inability to alter what is actual frustrates our grandiose delusions of being sovereign over everything. Yet the truth is we cannot escape the existential rub by running from a moral law. Objective moral values exist only if God exists. Is it all right, for example, to mutilate babies for entertainment? Every reasonable person will say “no.” We know that objective moral values do exist. Therefore, God must exist. Examining those premises and their validity presents a very strong argument.
The prophet Jeremiah noted, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9, ESV). Similarly, the apostle James said, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:22-25). "
Posted with permission.
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sirguessalot
for what it is worth
as ive mentioned before
it seems there are at least 5 basic pespectives one can take when interpreting our experience
such as our experience of: the bible, God, Jesus, death...and Hell
loosely...
1st person subjective interpretation: the perspective of a very young child, or self-centered adults, or magical thinking. "my beliefs = absolute truth." I, me, my. God is interpreted via my fantastic imagination.
2nd person intersubjective = the perspective of a child waking to their place in a family, or law-abiding adults, or mythological thinking. "our beliefs = absolute truth." We, our, us. God is interpreted via our cultural story.
3rd person objective = the perspective of a young adult after leaving the family and entering college, or reasonable adults, or rational thinking. "proven evidence = absolute truth." It, this, him....God is interpreted objectively.
4th person interobjective = the perspective of one who sees our changing objective positions in time, or social adult, or pluralist thinking. "its all relative = there is no absolute truth." Its, these...God is interpreted as a flexible flowing system...the sum of all our objective perspectives.
5th person aperspectival = the perspective of one who notices our development (or not) through all the above perspectives. Each perspective is valid, plays a role, but is also partial and limited...but all perspectives are of the one and self-same occasion....and God is all in all. Truth, goodness, and beauty. Self, culture, and the cosmos. All perspectives work better together, than they do at war with each other.
as life goes on...we are developing (or not) our capacity to take each perspective, so there is a spectrum of possibilities (in depths and degrees) in each perspective. Using subjectivity as an example...one can loosely describe the journey as pre-developed subjectivity, developing subjectivity, and developed subjectivity (and all points in between).
same for inter-subjectivity, objectivity, inter-objectivity, and even aperspectival.
...
carry on
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Abigail
Geisha,
I am short on time, but I wanted to respond to you. You have another post in here somewhere I want to respond to as well, if I can. I am going to attempt to place my responses in red within your reply, so the chain of thought isn't lost. :)
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