This has been an interesting thread so far. I'm certainly glad I do not worship the god that has been portrayed here using hell as "the final solution" - I could not stomach the revulsion I would feel about worshiping such a vicious, jealous and cruel god - nor the revulsion I would feel with having an earthly relationship with such people as believe that this is the god who rules the universe.
Rumrunner,
I have RG's okay to take this off topic in response to you. . .
WOW. . . those are some harsh words above, but I really read them and thought about them. I tried to look at it from your perspective. In some ways I can see your point. The God of the bible can appear as a meglalomaniac.
As a follower of a seemingly megalomaniac God, . . . . I often get out of line and do not express myself as I should. This is sometimes SO frustrating for me. . . and often makes me sad. Especially here where there are so many whom I have shared a somewhat unique common experience. TWI.
I usually blame it on being blonde. But, IRL it is so much easier to show my care for others.I am not saying you would like me if you met me, but it would be easier to show you who I am as a Christian.
If you would allow me to address some of the things you said. . .. . . I would happily do so. . . . if for no other reason than I do believe that God is good and He is love, but I also believe I do not have to change who He is to sweeten or entice people to Him. He is enough on His own.
In truth. . . He may NOT be what you want. . . I don't make ANY judgement on that. . . but, I want a shot at the very least to express what I understand about the God who seems like a megalomaniac.
I will be relying on John Piper from Desiring God. . . his thesis that God is not a megalomaniac.
It is a really great book to read. I could just reword this, but I want to share it with you in the best possible way. It is copied with permission.
My all-shaping conviction is that God created the universe in order that he might be worshipped with white-hot intensity by created beings who see his glory manifested in creation and history and supremely in the saving work of Christ.
I am also persuaded that people need to be confronted with how self-exalting God is in this purpose. To confront them with this, I give a quiz:
Q 1: What is the chief end of God?
A: The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy displaying and magnifying his glory forever.
Q 2: Who is the most God-centered person in the universe?
A: God.
Q 3: Who is uppermost in God’s affections?
A: God.
Q 4: Is God an idolater?
A: No. He has no other gods before him.
Q 5: What is God’s chief jealousy?
A: God’s chief jealousy is to be known, admired, trusted, enjoyed, and obeyed above all others.
Q 6: Do you feel most loved by God because he makes much of you, or because he frees you to enjoy making much of him forever.
I press on this because I believe that if we are God-centered simply because we consciously or unconsciously believe God is man-centered, then our God-centeredness is in reality man-centeredness. Teaching God’s God-centeredness forces this issue of whether we treasure God because of his excellence or mainly because he endorses ours.
God’s eternal, radical, ultimate commitment to his own self-exaltation permeates Scripture. His aim to be exalted glorified, admired, magnified, praised, and reverenced is seen to be the ultimate goal of all creation, all providence, and all saving acts.
“He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace” (Ephesians 1:5-6).
God created the natural world to display his glory: “The heavens declare the glory of God” (Psalms 19:1).
“You are my servant Israel in whom I will be glorified” (Isaiah 49:3); “. . . that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory (Jeremiah 13:11).
“He saved them [at the Red Sea] for his name’s sake that he might make known his mighty power” (Psalm l06:7-8); “I have raised you up for this very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” (Romans 9:17).
“I acted [in the wilderness] for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out (Ezekiel 20:14).
[After asking for a king] “Fear not . . . For the Lord will not cast away his people for his great name’s sake (l Samuel 12:20-22).
“Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act [in bringing you back from the exile], but for the sake of my holy name . . . . And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name . . . and the nations will know that I am the Lord” (Ezekiel 36:22-23, 32). “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another” (Isaiah 48:11).
“Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy” (Romans 15:8-9).
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again” (John 12:27, 28).
“He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Corinthians 5:15).
“God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:9-11).
“I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins” (Isaiah 43:25).
“Whoever serves [let him serve], as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified” (1 Peter 4:11).
“Immediately an angel of the Lord smote [Herod] because he did not give glory to God” (Acts 12:23).
“. . . when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at in all who have believed (2 Thessalonians l:9-l0).
“Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory, which thou hast given me in Thy love for me before the foundation of the world” (John l7:24).
“For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).
“And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the lamb” (Revelation 21:23).
This is not megalomania because, unlike our self-exaltation, God’s self-exaltation draws attention to what gives greatest and longest joy, namely, himself. When we exalt ourselves, we lure people away from the one thing that can satisfy their souls—the infinite beauty of God. When God exalts himself, he manifests the one thing that can satisfy our souls, namely, God.
Therefore, God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the most loving act, since love labors and suffers to enthrall us with what is infinitely and eternally satisfying, namely, God. Therefore, when God exalts God and commands us to join him, he is pursuing our highest, deepest, longest happiness. This is love, not megalomania.
God’s pursuit of his glory and our pursuit of our joy turn out to be the same pursuit. This is what Christ died to achieve. “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18). When we are brought to God as our highest treasure, he gets the glory and we get the pleasure.
To see this and believe this and experience this is radically transforming to worship—whether personal or corporate, marketplace or liturgical. "
Rumrunner, I hope you got this far!! Trying to explain to someone what worship is and how soul satisfying it is. . . . well nearly impossible. Especially to someone who seems to really dislike and not fear the God of the bible. . . BUT. . . The amazing love. . . the perfectness. . . the right of Him.
It is life altering.
This is a poor analogy, but if you appreciate something like art or dance. . . and you are moved by it. . . humbled and awed and satisfied in its beauty. . . well, it is a poor analogy. . .nothing compares. . . but I think you catch my drift. . . .
What if it is true and He really did create you to be satisfied in Him? Just in theory, wouldn't it be self-defeating to spurn Him?
First let me thank you for the time you took to post your thoughtful reply.
I do not view you as taking the thread off topic at all. I posted my opinion and you replied in context. Further - I didn't know you needed another poster's permission to post to another poster. But indeed I hope you do not think my post was directed at you or any other person directly on this thread. I have little, if any, use for personal insult or condemnation although it often seems to run rampant here by using direct names and insulting accusatory lines of questioning. I simply stated my opinion of that kind of god - where the hell described not only in some posts here but in many slices of christianity - gives all appearances of an oven for humans in a Nazi concentration camp.
I do not view ANY posts in this thread as out of line. You have your beliefs, Oakspeare has his, I have mine, RG has hers etc etc ad infinitum.
In fact I will repeat - thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs and position in more detail. BTW as an (hopefully humorous) aside you are not blonde - you are a light-haired detour off the information superhighway.
To clarify my position a bit more - I do not dislike the god of the bible - nor do I fear him/her/it. I have no problem with christianity nor christians and consider myself sort of one in a rather obtuse way. I also have no problem with Judaism, Taoism, and a host of others...people are people...their beliefs are their's as long as I am not at the other end of their weapons or door knocking.
I am glad that you are happy in your relationship with your god. Good for you. That probably puts you in a minority of people in the world.
Again thanks for posting - and again please do not read my previous post as any sort of slam on you or anyone else on this thread.
Best,
RR
Rumrunner,
I have RG's okay to take this off topic in response to you. . .
WOW. . . those are some harsh words above, but I really read them and thought about them. I tried to look at it from your perspective. In some ways I can see your point. The God of the bible can appear as a meglalomaniac.
As a follower of a seemingly megalomaniac God, . . . . I often get out of line and do not express myself as I should. This is sometimes SO frustrating for me. . . and often makes me sad. Especially here where there are so many whom I have shared a somewhat unique common experience. TWI.
I usually blame it on being blonde. But, IRL it is so much easier to show my care for others.I am not saying you would like me if you met me, but it would be easier to show you who I am as a Christian.
<snip>
Rumrunner, I hope you got this far!! Trying to explain to someone what worship is and how soul satisfying it is. . . . well nearly impossible. Especially to someone who seems to really dislike and not fear the God of the bible. . . BUT. . . The amazing love. . . the perfectness. . . the right of Him.
It is life altering.
This is a poor analogy, but if you appreciate something like art or dance. . . and you are moved by it. . . humbled and awed and satisfied in its beauty. . . well, it is a poor analogy. . .nothing compares. . . but I think you catch my drift. . . .
What if it is true and He really did create you to be satisfied in Him? Just in theory, wouldn't it be self-defeating to spurn Him?
How can a god that is supposedly omniscient and is supposed to know the hearts of man expect fairness from us?
Moreover, why would he want our fairness?...to him? That makes no sense at all.
Not to mention all the verses referring to tribulations and unfairness in the world.
My understanding is that he wants us to be perfect - while knowing that we can't be perfect.
But He remembers our frame and He gave us a Savior, He Loves us more than we can understand
Uhhhhh... real loving and kind...uh huh... yea
Please don't exclude or forget GOD's Love, Grace, Forgiveness and Mercy...His fairness and loving kindness to us all...He is perfect and part of being perfect is being Just...setting boundaries and conditions out of Love that is greater than our own wisdom, knowledge and understanding...Like a Dad or a Mom!!!
Are You saying that You don't know how to be fair and if so, I understand? Yet, if You know how to be fair in a horizontal way...man to man, why according to the definite of being fair does it exclude being fair concerning GOD and His Word. I already stated that GOD does not expect us to be fair as a requirement; but by definite we are fair when we are not biased, and when we reasonable and impartially, in this case, examine and study The Bible to learn about GOD. It is not possible to gain a true and impartial knowledge of anyone or anything, including GOD or His Word without being fair; Otherwise the result is blurred or skewed. Without preconception based on previous experience (example TWI.....the bad experiences and confused self propagation usage and twisting of GOD's Word.)
First let me thank you for the time you took to post your thoughtful reply.
I do not view you as taking the thread off topic at all. I posted my opinion and you replied in context. Further - I didn't know you needed another poster's permission to post to another poster. But indeed I hope you do not think my post was directed at you or any other person directly on this thread. I have little, if any, use for personal insult or condemnation although it often seems to run rampant here by using direct names and insulting accusatory lines of questioning. I simply stated my opinion of that kind of god - where the hell described not only in some posts here but in many slices of christianity - gives all appearances of an oven for humans in a Nazi concentration camp.
I do not view ANY posts in this thread as out of line. You have your beliefs, Oakspeare has his, I have mine, RG has hers etc etc ad infinitum.
In fact I will repeat - thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs and position in more detail. BTW as an (hopefully humorous) aside you are not blonde - you are a light-haired detour off the information superhighway.
To clarify my position a bit more - I do not dislike the god of the bible - nor do I fear him/her/it. I have no problem with christianity nor christians and consider myself sort of one in a rather obtuse way. I also have no problem with Judaism, Taoism, and a host of others...people are people...their beliefs are their's as long as I am not at the other end of their weapons or door knocking.
I am glad that you are happy in your relationship with your god. Good for you. That probably puts you in a minority of people in the world.
Again thanks for posting - and again please do not read my previous post as any sort of slam on you or anyone else on this thread.
Best,
RR
You are Right RumRunner, It is very much on topic!!!
Geisha did an excellant job!!!
She knows that she did not need to ask my permission for anything, no one does...she just did it out of politeness and wondering whether or not I was already addressing it (Your post).
I am very glad that she did!!! I would have never addressed it nearly as well as she has!!!
In fact I will repeat - thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs and position in more detail. BTW as an (hopefully humorous) aside you are not blonde - you are a light-haired detour off the information superhighway.
LOL they say it is funny because it is true. . . I laughed! :)
Two blondes were in a parking lot trying to unlock the door of their car with a coat hanger.
First Blonde:
"I can't seem to get this door unlocked!
Second Blonde:
Well you better hurry up. It's starting to rain and the top is down!
Assuming for the sake of argument that a good God has an everlasting hell, saying that he doesn't send people there, but that people choose to go there by not choosing God seems to me hair-splitting and taking the responsibility for having the place off of the good God.
The difference between the way I look at it and how I think that others look at it can be illustrated by a pair of analogies:
The God doesn't send position:
A park ranger meets a camper. He instructs him about how to behave in the park, including not swatting the local bears on the nose, and tells him the consequenses of bear swatting. The ranger continues his rounds, the camper swats the bear, the bear mauls and eats the camper.
My position:
A park ranger meets a camper. He instructs him about how to behave in the park, including not swatting the local bears on the nose, and tells him the consequenses of bear swatting. The camper tells the ranger that he doesn't believe him and the ranger feeds him to the bear, who the ranger has trained to eat on command any campers who the ranger commands him to eat.
Oak I will answer You with scripture and hope You understand my correlation to Your post, which is a marvelously conceived analogy
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
Oak I will answer You with scripture and hope You understand my correlation to Your post, which is a marvelously conceived analogy
Sure, I understand, I just don't agree
I get where you're coming from. Your answers and opinion, since you are a bible believer (apparently a believer in an inerrant bible), will necessarily flex to fit what you understand to be the biblical position, which you further believe to be your god's position. Coming from a different corner, I don't believe the bible is inerrant, or necessarily divinely inspired, so I kind of take things at face value, rather than trying to make things "fit", or interpreting actions in such a way that apparently immoral actions are reinterpreted as moral simply because God did them. We each base our conclusions on different premises. Thanks for taking the time to document your position though. Much appreciated.
If anything, the following part from a previous post here illustrates _perfectly_ but one reason why I walked away from the worship of this Abrahamic deity: (My comments in bold)
My all-shaping conviction is that God created the universe in order that he might be worshipped with white-hot intensity by created beings who see his glory manifested in creation and history and supremely in the saving work of Christ.
I am also persuaded that people need to be confronted (huh?? :blink:) with how self-exalting God is in this purpose. To confront them with this, I give a quiz:
Q 1: What is the chief end of God?
A: The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy displaying and magnifying his glory forever.
Q 2: Who is the most God-centered person in the universe?
A: God.
Q 3: Who is uppermost in God’s affections?
A: God.
Q 4: Is God an idolater?
A: No. He has no other gods before him.
Q 5: What is God’s chief jealousy?
A: God’s chief jealousy is to be known, admired, trusted, enjoyed, and obeyed above all others.
Q 6: Do you feel most loved by God because he makes much of you (oh really?), or because he frees you to enjoy making much of him forever. (Wow! We're free to make much of God forever! So THAT is what real freedom is all about, ehh?)
I press on this because I believe that if we are God-centered simply because we consciously or unconsciously believe God is man-centered, then our God-centeredness is in reality man-centeredness. Teaching God’s God-centeredness forces this issue of whether we treasure God because of his excellence or mainly because he endorses ours.
God’s eternal, radical, ultimate commitment to his own self-exaltation permeates Scripture. His aim to be exalted glorified, admired, magnified, praised, and reverenced is seen to be the ultimate goal of all creation, all providence, and all saving acts.
((shakes my head)) Tsk, tsk, tsk. ... Self-exaltation to the extreme. I have seen the ultimate of Hollywood celebrity primma donnas who come nowhere _near_ the self-centeredness that is plainly exhibited here by said deity. ... Nowhere near.
Another clue as to why this kind of deistic self-centeredness is not worthy of respect and honor (IMO) is look at what happens to those who do not share and participate in the 'party' of this adulation of God. Read about what happens to said 'vile and evil people' in all the associated scriptures of said deity.
It ain't pretty.
Its one thing to be proud of your work and achievements. And even to show them off and such. It's all part of being a craftsman, a designer, a builder, etc. I know that there are plenty of times where after a hard day's work being put into web design, I'm proud of my work, and I show it to others.
But what is described in the quoted section above is w-a-a-y-y over the top. Goes w-a-a-y-y past being proud of his work and achievements. ... Uummm, one clue to this is, again, how the unbelievers/doubters/those who walk away are treated. It would be like if I show off a web site creation of mine to someone, that person goes "Ehhh." <_<, flips my work off, and walks away, ... and because of that, I pour gasoline all over him and set fire to him, all while rabidly screaming epitaphs and curses at him.
Ummm, I don't know about _you_, but that kind of reaction ain't exactly ... moral. ....
If anything, the following part from a previous post here illustrates _perfectly_ but one reason why I walked away from the worship of this Abrahamic deity: (My comments in bold)
((shakes my head)) Tsk, tsk, tsk. ... Self-exaltation to the extreme. I have seen the ultimate of Hollywood celebrity primma donnas who come nowhere _near_ the self-centeredness that is plainly exhibited here by said deity. ... Nowhere near.
Another clue as to why this kind of deistic self-centeredness is not worthy of respect and honor (IMO) is look at what happens to those who do not share and participate in the 'party' of this adulation of God. Read about what happens to said 'vile and evil people' in all the associated scriptures of said deity.
It ain't pretty.
Its one thing to be proud of your work and achievements. And even to show them off and such. It's all part of being a craftsman, a designer, a builder, etc. I know that there are plenty of times where after a hard day's work being put into web design, I'm proud of my work, and I show it to others.
But what is described in the quoted section above is w-a-a-y-y over the top. Goes w-a-a-y-y past being proud of his work and achievements. ... Uummm, one clue to this is, again, how the unbelievers/doubters/those who walk away are treated. It would be like if I show off a web site creation of mine to someone, that person goes "Ehhh." <_<, flips my work off, and walks away, ... and because of that, I pour gasoline all over him and set fire to him, all while rabidly screaming epitaphs and curses at him.
Ummm, I don't know about _you_, but that kind of reaction ain't exactly ... moral. ....
.... Knowwhatamean?! :unsure:
Hi Garth,
Well yes, if that was the sum total of it I could surely see your point. Since I posted John Piper's work, I would like to clarify a bit.
If God were just a flawed human being, it would make absolute sense to come to those conclusions. To pronounce those moral judgements. . . and as I explained to RR it is sincerely difficult to define the God of the bible to one who has no fear of Him. Not a judgement here, more a reality about my writing and word skills!
I know my experience and relationship to God is irrelevant to your understanding. . . I get that. . . but at the VERY least consider this. . . I am still here after the "Durn Heathens" thread. :) Like anyone else, I like to be liked, in fact, I am a people person, so I thrive on social interaction. . . . Ex-Way are my peeps. . . ya know, but I cannot compromise when it comes to God. So, I take some heat here. . .but contrary to what it may seem. . . I am not a masochist!! I WANT to share what I understand with the seeking. . . and sometimes enjoy talking to the ones who have found something else. But for me. . . . it is about God.
Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit.
But, because I have come to KNOW God personally, meaning He is the largest factor in my life. . . . I believe the bible when it describes God. . . I know these things to be true because God is a friend to me. . . a father. . . my God. He is revealed to me. . . It is a very deep personal relationship. . . He communicates. . . (Not like in TWI with heavy Revy) but with the Holy Spirit. . . guides, teaches, and even chastens. . . . His love is amazing. . . .
Bear with me . . . . I have a point. . . . and I am not out here in the wilderness. . . . there are millions of us who know and understand the God of scripture. . . .
So, when I describe Him for you. . . it may not be what you understand or believe, but it cannot be dismissed with sarcasm either. . . Christianity is the worlds largest faith. . . people's lives are literally transformed. . . even if you believe it is some kind of mental illness. . . . brain chemical . . . or like the latest great theory. . . hardwired into our DNA. . . dismissing a witness is hard to do honestly.
NOW the point. . . if God were like you and I . . . . I would "ditto" what you say. . . but He is not like us. . . God is righteous, meaning right. . . He is right. . . that means that all He does is right. . . He is perfect. . . He is Love. . . He can do no wrong. . . . every judgement He makes is just. . .God is joyful and happy, but it is nothing outside of Himself that causes Him to be this way. . . He is overflowing within Himself . Constant joy and love. . . happiness and peace. . . He takes pleasure in Himself. . . unlike us He needs no external source of joy and hapiness.
He is self-exalting because He is worthy of it. . . . it is not like when WE are self-exalting. It is not ego or pride because God cannot have these things. . . . because He is RIGHT to exalt His perfection. He can do this and it be an act of love. . . . not an ego trip. Hard to relate to. . . which BTW is why we relate to Jesus. . . .
When He tells US to do praise and worship. . . it is so we will find our happiness and fufillment. There is no pride or needed ego stroke. . . it is because He made us for this. . . to enjoy Him. The ultimate pleasure. . . EVER. . . is God. To be in His presence. . . to know His ways and to worship and praise Him. We are to delight in Him because that is where true delight is to be found.
If we pretend to praise. . . pretend to worship because we think we should or for whatever reason. . . we are not really in a relationship with the real thing.
And . . . this is not to say people don't seek delight in other things. . . if you worship His creation as a faith. . . you may find delight. . . BUT, it will not be the same thing. . . worshipping what He made. . . sure, it might be awesome for you. . . but just consider. . . it might be so awesome because He made it. How much greater would the maker be?
As for His people. . . lot's of us don't get it. . . it is a journey. . . often a slow one with detours. . . but, if a Christian has offended you. . . a true Christian. . . I am sorry. From the bottom of my heart.
Most of us just want you to have the same joy we have found. . . that is all. . . to enjoy Him now and eternally. IF just IF this is why we were made and it is denied. . . what is left but searching and sorrow. . . . the opposite of joy.
I will say this. . . our journey is slow because God takes a lifetime to teach us. . . . the things of God do belong to His people. . . but He welcomes all who come to Him to be His people.
Christianity is more than "The word". It is a relationship with the author.
His people are people. . . . the same as you. . . NOT better, just forgiven.
Like I said. . . poor writing skills. . .but I hope that clarifies.
LOLOL - OK Geisha - This is the second time you've mentioned your writing skills and I have to point something out to you. Nothing doctrinal at all about this reply. Please take this with both a sense of humor and also a sense of other people. While I am not personally offended in the least, don't you think the words "Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit. " could just as easily sound as bad as if you said something like, "Besides. . .some of you black people sure do have a real sense of rhythm."?!?!?!
Back to the regular scheduled posts...
<snip>
If God were just a flawed human being, it would make absolute sense to come to those conclusions. To pronounce those moral judgements. . . and as I explained to RR it is sincerely difficult to define the God of the bible to one who has no fear of Him. Not a judgement here, more a reality about my writing and word skills!
<snip>
Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit.
I've always considered praising God to be nothing more than to see bits (only bits, mind you) of what he is.
It's not so much that he NEEDS my praise.
It's just that as opposed to every other man and/or woman who thought that they should be worshipped because THEY THOUGHT that they were awesome, God really is that awsome. It just cannot be helped on my part.
And no matter what the other issues, IMO I will end up either willingly on my knees for The Lord Jesus Christ or not willingly. But it is because of what he is, not because he's some self-glorifying sociopath like the other ones that I've met.
(edited for spelling)
(added in editing)P.S. Hell as it pertains to the fire is for evil. C'mon folks. How about a partial list of the evil things done by humankind.
While I am not personally offended in the least, don't you think the words "Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit. " could just as easily sound as bad as if you said something like, "Besides. . .some of you black people sure do have a real sense of rhythm."?!?!?!
LOLOL - OK Geisha - This is the second time you've mentioned your writing skills and I have to point something out to you. Nothing doctrinal at all about this reply. Please take this with both a sense of humor and also a sense of other people. While I am not personally offended in the least, don't you think the words "Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit. " could just as easily sound as bad as if you said something like, "Besides. . .some of you black people sure do have a real sense of rhythm."?!?!?!
Back to the regular scheduled posts...
Rumrunner. . . . between your post and Oakspears I laughed right out loud. . . scared the cat. . . Believe me when I say. . . I meant to use the all encompassing Heathen Hoard. . . my only excuse is that it was too early in the am.
Now that was a JOKE. . . . Geisha made a funny!! :)
Aye laddies - but I prefer my favorite ale - named Arrogant B@st@rd Ale by Stone Brewing company - let the pillaging begin
Heathen Horde--my first thought--strawberry meade!!!
Odd thought here but it seems that if you promote a god who has hell as a final solution - then this guy and his son make your cheap-a$$ed god look like a piker when it comes to love and dedication to his child(ren). I don't know if they are christian, pagan, and I don't care. This is love at its finest.
Ah Rumrunner that was a beautiful clip. . . we are made with such amazing ability and capacity for love. . . . are we not?
If I could share with you the life and love and commitment of the woman who started this thread RG. . . . the love and hope and dedication equal to or even greater than the family in the clip. . . to her very special son. . . . without betraying her personal life. . . . I would write a book right here and now.
If I could share just a small snapshot of the beauty of her son's heart. . . . you would probably weep.
To me. . . that clip only exclaims how fearfully awesome we are made. It glorifies God. . . .
If you had picked any other clip I would not have been half as moved, but in our very midst . . . . right here is a woman who has walked a very similar path. . . .
She has done it with such grace. . . . all by herself. . . but never alone. I do love her dearly for these very reasons. . . always humbled!!
Who do you think Jesus came for? The broken and those who are less in the eyes of the world. . . . the least shall be first. . .
Rumrunner. if you saw who I spend my time with and whom I consider the greatest here. . . you would surely give me a big rubber neck second look. :)
God is glorified in the broken. Jesus hung out with the outcasts.
So, before we call God a Piker for even the concept of hell, remember until your dying breath. . . He offers you love. He offers Himself. He even offered His own beloved Son for you. He offers you great gifts.
Hell is about rejecting that great love, goodness and understanding for something else. . . your choice for something else. . . He wants you to come to Him. . . He wants you to choose Him and to show you who He is. . . He is that clip. . . that kind of love and dedication and commitment and hope and heart. . . . He sees the broken and calls them to Him. . .He does not reject anyone. . . We reject Him. I just don't want us to do it based on a warped understanding of Him.
He doesn't give up on us. . . . we give up on Him. . . maybe because we don't really see Him. I don't know what draws us away from such good.
What I love about the bible and most especially about Jesus is that He nails the human condition. . . nails it. . . He does not condemn it. . . He really understands it. . . He offers a way for it. . . . funny thing. . . .the one thing we are so often not willing to do. . . . is the only thing He asks. . . believe.
Nice clip rumrunner. . . One of my favorite songs too. . . really. . . Mercy Me
After careful meta analysis of some very prestigious studies it is now very apparent that..... Everyone goes to the nether regions for varying amounts of time. There's really no disputing this as its top drawer research and analysis by independent scholarly sources.
The best that can be hoped for is to become a trustee so that there's no problem with getting close enough to Beelzebub to actually get to know the guy.. I can do it for you guys, though because the Prince of darkness and myself are like.. tight. Just send me $2000 wire transfer and I'll have you stay in the afterlife all smoothed out. Give me a call.. BR-549.
This Father, Mother and Son know and truly understand the depth and riches of GOD’s perfect Love. It strengthens them to endure every obstacle or cruelty laid in their paths. They Live Love. When You Live Love you can understand GOD’s Love and constantly be infused and strengthened by it. For GOD is perfect Love. Perfect love casts out fear...fear of anything!!!
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love
;
but perfect love casteth out fear
:
because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
GOD’s Love taught that man not to reject his own son to fight for him and to learn from his sons special abilities, love, energy and strength. It was GOD’s Love that casts out fear. It is GOD’s LOVE that has opened their eyes to see with their hearts as well as their minds and to walk in that Love. They see a whole picture, and a whole family knit together in LOVE.
GOD wants us to see his heart His love, His grace, His mercy, His joy, His judgments, His justice and all his other attributes as he shows us in His Word. It declares Him as a whole; so that we see the whole picture and are a whole family knit together in LOVE
GOD is LOVE and He created us in that LOVE and by that Love. That love is shed abroad in our hearts. That is the reason we know how to love, and can love or even understand love. GOD is light and there is no darkness in HIM...no darkness at all!!!
When we take things, people or GOD apart from the whole of them we become knit pickers and judges of their parts and see only a part of a part; and separated in part. Seeing only what we want to see and how we choose to see it!!!
There is no truth in that examination and that dissection without knowing the whole as the sum of it's parts; wrong is concluded and propounded!!!
A fragmented view misrepresents the whole!!!
Rom 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed;
because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
The wholeness of Love heals and sustains us against any odds!!!
1Jo 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world
.
1Jo 4:5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Sounds like only a rather small group of Protestant Christians with the correct type Bible interpretation make the heaven cut. The rest--Wrong doctrine Christians, Jews, Jains, Shintos, Moslems , Atheists, indigenous beliefs, Buddists etc all get to go to hell.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, cigar in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a f(ckin’ ride!!!"
My personal philosophy based on many years of hanging with crazies like Groucho...
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doojable
This is what I said:
How can a god that is supposedly omniscient and is supposed to know the hearts of man expect fairness from us?
Moreover, why would he want our fairness?...to him? That makes no sense at all.
Not to mention all the verses referring to tribulations and unfairness in the world.
My understanding is that he wants us to be perfect - while knowing that we can't be perfect.
Uhhhhh... real loving and kind...uh huh... yea
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geisha779
Rumrunner,
I have RG's okay to take this off topic in response to you. . .
WOW. . . those are some harsh words above, but I really read them and thought about them. I tried to look at it from your perspective. In some ways I can see your point. The God of the bible can appear as a meglalomaniac.
As a follower of a seemingly megalomaniac God, . . . . I often get out of line and do not express myself as I should. This is sometimes SO frustrating for me. . . and often makes me sad. Especially here where there are so many whom I have shared a somewhat unique common experience. TWI.
I usually blame it on being blonde. But, IRL it is so much easier to show my care for others.I am not saying you would like me if you met me, but it would be easier to show you who I am as a Christian.
If you would allow me to address some of the things you said. . .. . . I would happily do so. . . . if for no other reason than I do believe that God is good and He is love, but I also believe I do not have to change who He is to sweeten or entice people to Him. He is enough on His own.
In truth. . . He may NOT be what you want. . . I don't make ANY judgement on that. . . but, I want a shot at the very least to express what I understand about the God who seems like a megalomaniac.
I will be relying on John Piper from Desiring God. . . his thesis that God is not a megalomaniac.
It is a really great book to read. I could just reword this, but I want to share it with you in the best possible way. It is copied with permission.
My all-shaping conviction is that God created the universe in order that he might be worshipped with white-hot intensity by created beings who see his glory manifested in creation and history and supremely in the saving work of Christ.
I am also persuaded that people need to be confronted with how self-exalting God is in this purpose. To confront them with this, I give a quiz:
Q 1: What is the chief end of God?
A: The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy displaying and magnifying his glory forever.
Q 2: Who is the most God-centered person in the universe?
A: God.
Q 3: Who is uppermost in God’s affections?
A: God.
Q 4: Is God an idolater?
A: No. He has no other gods before him.
Q 5: What is God’s chief jealousy?
A: God’s chief jealousy is to be known, admired, trusted, enjoyed, and obeyed above all others.
Q 6: Do you feel most loved by God because he makes much of you, or because he frees you to enjoy making much of him forever.
I press on this because I believe that if we are God-centered simply because we consciously or unconsciously believe God is man-centered, then our God-centeredness is in reality man-centeredness. Teaching God’s God-centeredness forces this issue of whether we treasure God because of his excellence or mainly because he endorses ours.
God’s eternal, radical, ultimate commitment to his own self-exaltation permeates Scripture. His aim to be exalted glorified, admired, magnified, praised, and reverenced is seen to be the ultimate goal of all creation, all providence, and all saving acts.
“He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace” (Ephesians 1:5-6).
God created the natural world to display his glory: “The heavens declare the glory of God” (Psalms 19:1).
“You are my servant Israel in whom I will be glorified” (Isaiah 49:3); “. . . that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory (Jeremiah 13:11).
“He saved them [at the Red Sea] for his name’s sake that he might make known his mighty power” (Psalm l06:7-8); “I have raised you up for this very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” (Romans 9:17).
“I acted [in the wilderness] for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out (Ezekiel 20:14).
[After asking for a king] “Fear not . . . For the Lord will not cast away his people for his great name’s sake (l Samuel 12:20-22).
“Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act [in bringing you back from the exile], but for the sake of my holy name . . . . And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name . . . and the nations will know that I am the Lord” (Ezekiel 36:22-23, 32). “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another” (Isaiah 48:11).
“Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy” (Romans 15:8-9).
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again” (John 12:27, 28).
“He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Corinthians 5:15).
“God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:9-11).
“I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins” (Isaiah 43:25).
“Whoever serves [let him serve], as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified” (1 Peter 4:11).
“Immediately an angel of the Lord smote [Herod] because he did not give glory to God” (Acts 12:23).
“. . . when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at in all who have believed (2 Thessalonians l:9-l0).
“Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory, which thou hast given me in Thy love for me before the foundation of the world” (John l7:24).
“For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).
“And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the lamb” (Revelation 21:23).
This is not megalomania because, unlike our self-exaltation, God’s self-exaltation draws attention to what gives greatest and longest joy, namely, himself. When we exalt ourselves, we lure people away from the one thing that can satisfy their souls—the infinite beauty of God. When God exalts himself, he manifests the one thing that can satisfy our souls, namely, God.
Therefore, God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the most loving act, since love labors and suffers to enthrall us with what is infinitely and eternally satisfying, namely, God. Therefore, when God exalts God and commands us to join him, he is pursuing our highest, deepest, longest happiness. This is love, not megalomania.
God’s pursuit of his glory and our pursuit of our joy turn out to be the same pursuit. This is what Christ died to achieve. “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18). When we are brought to God as our highest treasure, he gets the glory and we get the pleasure.
To see this and believe this and experience this is radically transforming to worship—whether personal or corporate, marketplace or liturgical. "
Rumrunner, I hope you got this far!! Trying to explain to someone what worship is and how soul satisfying it is. . . . well nearly impossible. Especially to someone who seems to really dislike and not fear the God of the bible. . . BUT. . . The amazing love. . . the perfectness. . . the right of Him.
It is life altering.
This is a poor analogy, but if you appreciate something like art or dance. . . and you are moved by it. . . humbled and awed and satisfied in its beauty. . . well, it is a poor analogy. . .nothing compares. . . but I think you catch my drift. . . .
What if it is true and He really did create you to be satisfied in Him? Just in theory, wouldn't it be self-defeating to spurn Him?
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RumRunner
Hi Geisha,
First let me thank you for the time you took to post your thoughtful reply.
I do not view you as taking the thread off topic at all. I posted my opinion and you replied in context. Further - I didn't know you needed another poster's permission to post to another poster. But indeed I hope you do not think my post was directed at you or any other person directly on this thread. I have little, if any, use for personal insult or condemnation although it often seems to run rampant here by using direct names and insulting accusatory lines of questioning. I simply stated my opinion of that kind of god - where the hell described not only in some posts here but in many slices of christianity - gives all appearances of an oven for humans in a Nazi concentration camp.
I do not view ANY posts in this thread as out of line. You have your beliefs, Oakspeare has his, I have mine, RG has hers etc etc ad infinitum.
In fact I will repeat - thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs and position in more detail. BTW as an (hopefully humorous) aside you are not blonde - you are a light-haired detour off the information superhighway.
To clarify my position a bit more - I do not dislike the god of the bible - nor do I fear him/her/it. I have no problem with christianity nor christians and consider myself sort of one in a rather obtuse way. I also have no problem with Judaism, Taoism, and a host of others...people are people...their beliefs are their's as long as I am not at the other end of their weapons or door knocking.
I am glad that you are happy in your relationship with your god. Good for you. That probably puts you in a minority of people in the world.
Again thanks for posting - and again please do not read my previous post as any sort of slam on you or anyone else on this thread.
Best,
RR
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RainbowsGirl
Are You saying that You don't know how to be fair and if so, I understand? Yet, if You know how to be fair in a horizontal way...man to man, why according to the definite of being fair does it exclude being fair concerning GOD and His Word. I already stated that GOD does not expect us to be fair as a requirement; but by definite we are fair when we are not biased, and when we reasonable and impartially, in this case, examine and study The Bible to learn about GOD. It is not possible to gain a true and impartial knowledge of anyone or anything, including GOD or His Word without being fair; Otherwise the result is blurred or skewed. Without preconception based on previous experience (example TWI.....the bad experiences and confused self propagation usage and twisting of GOD's Word.)
Encata Dictionary:
fair (1)
fair [ fer ]
adjective (comparative fair·er, superlative fair·est)
Definition:
1. reasonable or unbiased: not exhibiting any bias, and therefore reasonable or impartial
a fair decision
2. done properly: done according to the rules
fair and free elections
3. not stormy or cloudy: sunny or clear, and without much wind
fair weather
4. nautical good for sailing: describes conditions that are favorable for sailing or travel by boat
a fair wind
5. pleasing to look at: beautiful or pleasing to the eye ( literary )
a fair maiden
6. not blocked: clear and unobstructed
a fair view of the enemy's forces
7. light-colored: with light-colored hair or skin
8. sizeable: reasonably large in size or quantity
They had a fair number of responses to the advertisement.
9. acceptable: no more than acceptable or average
Your performance this year has been only fair.
10. better than acceptable: moderately good or reasonable
a fair understanding
11. unsullied: not marred by any blemish or stain
to preserve your fair name
12. false despite appearances: seemingly good or true, but actually false or insincere
fair words
13. baseball in fair territory: constituting a fair ball according to the rules of baseball
The ball's not going to stay fair.
adverb
Definition:
1. properly: in accordance with the rules or what is expected
She's always played fair with me.
2. baseball in fair territory: in or into fair territory on a baseball field
3. directly: in a direct or straight way, and squarely
hit fair in the center of the board
verb (past and past participle faired, present participle fair·ing, 3rd person present singular fairs)
Definition:
1. intransitive verb Scotland improve: to become bright after cloud or rain ( refers to the weather or sky )
2. transitive verb make smooth and even: to smooth or streamline the surface of something such as an aircraft wing or tabletop
[ Old English faeger "beautiful" < Germanic, "suitable"]
fair and square justly, fairly, or according to the rules
fair enough acceptable and understandable, but not ideal
fair's fair used to urge or appeal for just or even treatment (informal)
fair to middling reasonably good or reasonably well (informal)hyphenated when used before a noun
for fair U.S. utterly or completely (informal)
no fair used to indicate that something is unfair or against the rules (informal)
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RainbowsGirl
You are Right RumRunner, It is very much on topic!!!
Geisha did an excellant job!!!
She knows that she did not need to ask my permission for anything, no one does...she just did it out of politeness and wondering whether or not I was already addressing it (Your post).
I am very glad that she did!!! I would have never addressed it nearly as well as she has!!!
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geisha779
LOL they say it is funny because it is true. . . I laughed! :)
Two blondes were in a parking lot trying to unlock the door of their car with a coat hanger.
First Blonde:
"I can't seem to get this door unlocked!
Second Blonde:
Well you better hurry up. It's starting to rain and the top is down!
Thanks!!
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RainbowsGirl
Oak I will answer You with scripture and hope You understand my correlation to Your post, which is a marvelously conceived analogy
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.
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Oakspear
I get where you're coming from. Your answers and opinion, since you are a bible believer (apparently a believer in an inerrant bible), will necessarily flex to fit what you understand to be the biblical position, which you further believe to be your god's position. Coming from a different corner, I don't believe the bible is inerrant, or necessarily divinely inspired, so I kind of take things at face value, rather than trying to make things "fit", or interpreting actions in such a way that apparently immoral actions are reinterpreted as moral simply because God did them. We each base our conclusions on different premises. Thanks for taking the time to document your position though. Much appreciated.
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GarthP2000
If anything, the following part from a previous post here illustrates _perfectly_ but one reason why I walked away from the worship of this Abrahamic deity: (My comments in bold)
((shakes my head)) Tsk, tsk, tsk. ... Self-exaltation to the extreme. I have seen the ultimate of Hollywood celebrity primma donnas who come nowhere _near_ the self-centeredness that is plainly exhibited here by said deity. ... Nowhere near.
Another clue as to why this kind of deistic self-centeredness is not worthy of respect and honor (IMO) is look at what happens to those who do not share and participate in the 'party' of this adulation of God. Read about what happens to said 'vile and evil people' in all the associated scriptures of said deity.
It ain't pretty.
Its one thing to be proud of your work and achievements. And even to show them off and such. It's all part of being a craftsman, a designer, a builder, etc. I know that there are plenty of times where after a hard day's work being put into web design, I'm proud of my work, and I show it to others.
But what is described in the quoted section above is w-a-a-y-y over the top. Goes w-a-a-y-y past being proud of his work and achievements. ... Uummm, one clue to this is, again, how the unbelievers/doubters/those who walk away are treated. It would be like if I show off a web site creation of mine to someone, that person goes "Ehhh." <_<, flips my work off, and walks away, ... and because of that, I pour gasoline all over him and set fire to him, all while rabidly screaming epitaphs and curses at him.
Ummm, I don't know about _you_, but that kind of reaction ain't exactly ... moral. ....
.... Knowwhatamean?! :unsure:
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cman
Well, RumRunner,
I don't fault anyone for not accepting the way a lot of these things are presented by people or scripture.
All these factors are portrayed in a way that don't make sense.
I wish I could paint the picture for you or anyone.
But that's not my task to complete.
Cause even though some who know, listen and speak,
their words are to be heard by the ones listening, looking.
By the ones ready, and no one will be excluded in the long run.
Each person is at a different point in their lives I believe.
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geisha779
Hi Garth,
Well yes, if that was the sum total of it I could surely see your point. Since I posted John Piper's work, I would like to clarify a bit.
If God were just a flawed human being, it would make absolute sense to come to those conclusions. To pronounce those moral judgements. . . and as I explained to RR it is sincerely difficult to define the God of the bible to one who has no fear of Him. Not a judgement here, more a reality about my writing and word skills!
I know my experience and relationship to God is irrelevant to your understanding. . . I get that. . . but at the VERY least consider this. . . I am still here after the "Durn Heathens" thread. :) Like anyone else, I like to be liked, in fact, I am a people person, so I thrive on social interaction. . . . Ex-Way are my peeps. . . ya know, but I cannot compromise when it comes to God. So, I take some heat here. . .but contrary to what it may seem. . . I am not a masochist!! I WANT to share what I understand with the seeking. . . and sometimes enjoy talking to the ones who have found something else. But for me. . . . it is about God.
Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit.
But, because I have come to KNOW God personally, meaning He is the largest factor in my life. . . . I believe the bible when it describes God. . . I know these things to be true because God is a friend to me. . . a father. . . my God. He is revealed to me. . . It is a very deep personal relationship. . . He communicates. . . (Not like in TWI with heavy Revy) but with the Holy Spirit. . . guides, teaches, and even chastens. . . . His love is amazing. . . .
Bear with me . . . . I have a point. . . . and I am not out here in the wilderness. . . . there are millions of us who know and understand the God of scripture. . . .
So, when I describe Him for you. . . it may not be what you understand or believe, but it cannot be dismissed with sarcasm either. . . Christianity is the worlds largest faith. . . people's lives are literally transformed. . . even if you believe it is some kind of mental illness. . . . brain chemical . . . or like the latest great theory. . . hardwired into our DNA. . . dismissing a witness is hard to do honestly.
NOW the point. . . if God were like you and I . . . . I would "ditto" what you say. . . but He is not like us. . . God is righteous, meaning right. . . He is right. . . that means that all He does is right. . . He is perfect. . . He is Love. . . He can do no wrong. . . . every judgement He makes is just. . .God is joyful and happy, but it is nothing outside of Himself that causes Him to be this way. . . He is overflowing within Himself . Constant joy and love. . . happiness and peace. . . He takes pleasure in Himself. . . unlike us He needs no external source of joy and hapiness.
He is self-exalting because He is worthy of it. . . . it is not like when WE are self-exalting. It is not ego or pride because God cannot have these things. . . . because He is RIGHT to exalt His perfection. He can do this and it be an act of love. . . . not an ego trip. Hard to relate to. . . which BTW is why we relate to Jesus. . . .
When He tells US to do praise and worship. . . it is so we will find our happiness and fufillment. There is no pride or needed ego stroke. . . it is because He made us for this. . . to enjoy Him. The ultimate pleasure. . . EVER. . . is God. To be in His presence. . . to know His ways and to worship and praise Him. We are to delight in Him because that is where true delight is to be found.
If we pretend to praise. . . pretend to worship because we think we should or for whatever reason. . . we are not really in a relationship with the real thing.
And . . . this is not to say people don't seek delight in other things. . . if you worship His creation as a faith. . . you may find delight. . . BUT, it will not be the same thing. . . worshipping what He made. . . sure, it might be awesome for you. . . but just consider. . . it might be so awesome because He made it. How much greater would the maker be?
As for His people. . . lot's of us don't get it. . . it is a journey. . . often a slow one with detours. . . but, if a Christian has offended you. . . a true Christian. . . I am sorry. From the bottom of my heart.
Most of us just want you to have the same joy we have found. . . that is all. . . to enjoy Him now and eternally. IF just IF this is why we were made and it is denied. . . what is left but searching and sorrow. . . . the opposite of joy.
I will say this. . . our journey is slow because God takes a lifetime to teach us. . . . the things of God do belong to His people. . . but He welcomes all who come to Him to be His people.
Christianity is more than "The word". It is a relationship with the author.
His people are people. . . . the same as you. . . NOT better, just forgiven.
Like I said. . . poor writing skills. . .but I hope that clarifies.
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RumRunner
LOLOL - OK Geisha - This is the second time you've mentioned your writing skills and I have to point something out to you. Nothing doctrinal at all about this reply. Please take this with both a sense of humor and also a sense of other people. While I am not personally offended in the least, don't you think the words "Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit. " could just as easily sound as bad as if you said something like, "Besides. . .some of you black people sure do have a real sense of rhythm."?!?!?!
Back to the regular scheduled posts...
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JeffSjo
[TWO-CENTS WARNING]
I've always considered praising God to be nothing more than to see bits (only bits, mind you) of what he is.
It's not so much that he NEEDS my praise.
It's just that as opposed to every other man and/or woman who thought that they should be worshipped because THEY THOUGHT that they were awesome, God really is that awsome. It just cannot be helped on my part.
And no matter what the other issues, IMO I will end up either willingly on my knees for The Lord Jesus Christ or not willingly. But it is because of what he is, not because he's some self-glorifying sociopath like the other ones that I've met.
(edited for spelling)
(added in editing)P.S. Hell as it pertains to the fire is for evil. C'mon folks. How about a partial list of the evil things done by humankind.
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Oakspear
And some of my best friends are...
They're a credit to their people...
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geisha779
Rumrunner. . . . between your post and Oakspears I laughed right out loud. . . scared the cat. . . Believe me when I say. . . I meant to use the all encompassing Heathen Hoard. . . my only excuse is that it was too early in the am.
Now that was a JOKE. . . . Geisha made a funny!! :)
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Oakspear
Heathen Hoard! I love it! We'll be along presently to pillage & plunder
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Bramble
Heathen Horde--my first thought--strawberry meade!!!
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RumRunner
Aye laddies - but I prefer my favorite ale - named Arrogant B@st@rd Ale by Stone Brewing company - let the pillaging begin
Odd thought here but it seems that if you promote a god who has hell as a final solution - then this guy and his son make your cheap-a$$ed god look like a piker when it comes to love and dedication to his child(ren). I don't know if they are christian, pagan, and I don't care. This is love at its finest.
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kimberly
Hey, I can breeze in if I wanna....jus depends on what innersts me at the moment.
Happy love to everybody...
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geisha779
Ah Rumrunner that was a beautiful clip. . . we are made with such amazing ability and capacity for love. . . . are we not?
If I could share with you the life and love and commitment of the woman who started this thread RG. . . . the love and hope and dedication equal to or even greater than the family in the clip. . . to her very special son. . . . without betraying her personal life. . . . I would write a book right here and now.
If I could share just a small snapshot of the beauty of her son's heart. . . . you would probably weep.
To me. . . that clip only exclaims how fearfully awesome we are made. It glorifies God. . . .
If you had picked any other clip I would not have been half as moved, but in our very midst . . . . right here is a woman who has walked a very similar path. . . .
She has done it with such grace. . . . all by herself. . . but never alone. I do love her dearly for these very reasons. . . always humbled!!
Who do you think Jesus came for? The broken and those who are less in the eyes of the world. . . . the least shall be first. . .
Rumrunner. if you saw who I spend my time with and whom I consider the greatest here. . . you would surely give me a big rubber neck second look. :)
God is glorified in the broken. Jesus hung out with the outcasts.
So, before we call God a Piker for even the concept of hell, remember until your dying breath. . . He offers you love. He offers Himself. He even offered His own beloved Son for you. He offers you great gifts.
Hell is about rejecting that great love, goodness and understanding for something else. . . your choice for something else. . . He wants you to come to Him. . . He wants you to choose Him and to show you who He is. . . He is that clip. . . that kind of love and dedication and commitment and hope and heart. . . . He sees the broken and calls them to Him. . .He does not reject anyone. . . We reject Him. I just don't want us to do it based on a warped understanding of Him.
He doesn't give up on us. . . . we give up on Him. . . maybe because we don't really see Him. I don't know what draws us away from such good.
What I love about the bible and most especially about Jesus is that He nails the human condition. . . nails it. . . He does not condemn it. . . He really understands it. . . He offers a way for it. . . . funny thing. . . .the one thing we are so often not willing to do. . . . is the only thing He asks. . . believe.
Nice clip rumrunner. . . One of my favorite songs too. . . really. . . Mercy Me
THANKS for posting it.
Hell is not the final solution
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Sudo
After careful meta analysis of some very prestigious studies it is now very apparent that..... Everyone goes to the nether regions for varying amounts of time. There's really no disputing this as its top drawer research and analysis by independent scholarly sources.
The best that can be hoped for is to become a trustee so that there's no problem with getting close enough to Beelzebub to actually get to know the guy.. I can do it for you guys, though because the Prince of darkness and myself are like.. tight. Just send me $2000 wire transfer and I'll have you stay in the afterlife all smoothed out. Give me a call.. BR-549.
sudo
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RainbowsGirl
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Bramble
Sounds like only a rather small group of Protestant Christians with the correct type Bible interpretation make the heaven cut. The rest--Wrong doctrine Christians, Jews, Jains, Shintos, Moslems , Atheists, indigenous beliefs, Buddists etc all get to go to hell.
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RumRunner
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, cigar in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a f(ckin’ ride!!!"
My personal philosophy based on many years of hanging with crazies like Groucho...
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