Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?

[RainbowsGirl]

Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?

1. What is hell?

Not a place of high thermal output (though some conservative scholars disagree) but being “away from the Lord’s presence” :

2Th 1:6

Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2Th 1:12

That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ

(2 Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;-cut off from intimate union with God (Rev 21:3; & Rev 22:4 :

Rev 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:3

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev22:4

And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

Rev 22:5

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:6

And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7

Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Hell’s darkness and flames (which, if literal, would cancel each other out) are figurative, portraying anguish and hopelessness without God. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)-:

Mat 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Spirit beings, which are unaffected by physical fire.

Let’s address some hell-related questions that unbelievers and believers find troubling.

2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?”

Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).

3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?”

No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief!

Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret.

Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits

Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry

Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something

Luk 16:19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Luk 16:27

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG)

4. “But how can people be sent to hell without knowing it’s full implications?”

Even if one isn’t fully aware of hell’s anguish, this doesn’t mean our choice is too much to bear. God is ready to equip anyone for salvation (John 16:8):

All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!

Jhn 16:1

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

Jhn 16:2

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Jhn 16:3

And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jhn 16:4

But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Jhn 16:5

But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Jhn 16:6

But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 16:8

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Jhn 16:10

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Jhn 16:11

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Jhn 16:12

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Jhn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!

Though the full consequences of our embracing or rejecting God aren’t fully apparent to us now, grace to choose responsibly is available to all. What prevents the salvation of everyone? Individuals’ choosing freely to reject God’s grace. We can always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51 - 60).

Act 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your father’s persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

God doesn’t send people to hell; they freely reject him, condemning themselves by not acknowledging their guilt. (Unto true repentance!!!)

5. “Why didn’t God make the world in such a way that all people would love him?”

While a world in which everyone loves God is theoretically possible, it is not feasible. Whatever possible world with free creatures God could create, it may be that none is sin-free, and God’s love isn’t forced. Hell-the absence of God’s presence-exists because, like Milton’s Satan, people would rather “reign in hell than serve in heaven.” God isn’t unloving but rather has gone to great lengths to show grace to everyone. Should God not create at all because many freely resist Him in the world God created and thus deprive many others of the greatest good possible?

6. “Why did God create people He knew would reject and be separated from Him forever?”

Rom 9:22

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2Cr 4:7

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2Ti 2:20

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hbr 9:21

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Rev 2:27

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Despite God’s desire that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), many still resist.

7. What if some become more resistant no matter how loving God is?

Isaiah 5:4; & Matt 23:37?

Isa 5:4

What could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Mat 23:1

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mat 23:4

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.

Mat 23:5

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Mat 23:6

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Mat 23:7

And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:8

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Mat 23:9

And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:10

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Mat 23:11

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Mat 23:12

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Mat 23:13

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16

Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17

[Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat 23:18

And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

Mat 23:19

[Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mat 23:20

Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

Mat 23:21

And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Mat 23:22

And he that shall swear by heaven sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Mat 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:24

[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mat 23:25

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:26

[Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mat 23:27

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mat 23:28

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mat 23:29

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,

Mat 23:30

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:31

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mat 23:33

[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 23:34

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

Mat 23:35

That upon you may come all the righteous bloodshed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

8. Should God not create those who would respond to His love simply because others would refuse it?

Luk 11:2

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

God’s will supersedes mankind’s will both selectively and collectively; whether we regard it believe it, or fully understand it!!!

Luk 11:3

Give us day by day our daily bread.

Luk 11:4

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

9. What if God created a world in which a maximal balance of least condemned and most redeemed was realized?

This is not unloving. He is all knowing ever present and omnipotent. What we do and decide to do with our Free will is known from the beginning to the end by the Alpha and Omega. He sees from the outside of time and space contingencies and restrains, the boundaries given to man, because our knowledge and wisdom is limited and finite (RG.)

Jud 1:21

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22

And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23

And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25

To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1Ti 1:9

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1Ti 1:11

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1Ti 1:12

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1Ti 1:13

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

1Ti 1:14

And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 1:15

This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 1:16

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1Ti 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

10. “Why wouldn’t God, from the start, make us like heavens saints-loving God while unable to sin?”

“Even Angels and heavens host have free will! The Devil and a third of the angels fell for trying to usurp the throne of GOD. Every idol that mankind puts before GOD is at enmity with the only true Holy Creator and only REAL GOD!” (RG.)

Exd 20:1

And God spake all these words, saying,

Exd 20:2

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exd 20:4

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Robust freedom on earth-to embrace freely God’s grace or resist it-is a requirement for arriving at one’s final destiny. Our earthly direction is “sealed” in the afterlife; our heart’s desire is finally granted-God or no God. So God couldn’t have created a heaven-like state in which the redeemed no longer sin without damaging this vitally important freedom. (Or perhaps, rather than “sealing” us from sin in the afterlife, God simply foreknows that no saint will actually freely sin, guaranteeing a sin-free condition in the final state.) Finally, because God has so fully given of Himself to make salvation freely available through His Son, we can confidently entrust any lingering questions about hell to His excellent character.

By: Paul Copan ( is in Italicized blue print excerpts)

Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).

This bears repeating

I missed You (((ALL))); I can finally write again...I sprained my hand so I will be back tracking posts/threads I have only been able to read as yet!!! I hope to catch up on at least some of them!!!

Edited January 19, 2009 by RainbowsGirl

[RainbowsGirl]

John MacArthur on true Salvation through Jesus Christ

[RainbowsGirl]

C.S. Lewis: from theism to Christianity

[Mark Clarke]

You're on the right track, in arguing against eternal punishment in everlasting flames. But I think the Scriptures are even more specific. They tell us that the wicked will be destroyed, not live forever without God. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..." Man does not have an immortal soul, and must be given the gift of eternal life in order to live forever. Those who reject Jesus Christ are not given that gift, and will die in the second death, and be forever destroyed. I wrote about this in detail on my website.

You're on the right track, in arguing against eternal punishment in everlasting flames. But I think the Scriptures are even more specific. They tell us that the wicked will be destroyed, not live forever without God. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..." Man does not have an immortal soul, and must be given the gift of eternal life in order to live forever. Those who reject Jesus Christ are not given that gift, and will die in the second death, and be forever destroyed. I wrote about this in detail on my website. However, I agree that idea of eternal torture is barbaric and could certainly not be the will of a loving God.

[GarthP2000]

Sounds to me like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Ie., the 'civilizing' of the hellfire and damnation punishment for those who do not believe. Ie., "You don't _really_ burn in hellfire, you are just simply 'cast off out of His presence'. ... There now, that isn't really that bad, is it?". And yet, it is still inflicted upon those who do no more wrong than not believe in a god, and don't believe for many reasons that go well beyond simply 'shaking their fist and refusing to bow down before a sovereign deity.' Reasons that often wind up being quite valid in the mind of the skeptic. And yet, because they have these reasonings, they are regarded as nothing more than 'wicked, vile people who obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ' and are dismissed w/o a 2nd thought.

Why can it not be where God can unmistakeably, with total proof, without any room for doubt whatsoever, show himself as a Supreme Being? Sorry, but this argument of "Well, they will just harden their hearts and not believe anyway" just doesn't fly. Hell, even the notion of "prove that God exists AND that he is indeed righteous" is regarded as distasteful and wicked to many believers, and yet such a notion is based upon a solid, logical, and reasonable basis, and that reasoning often arrived at because of the multitude of personal abuses, violence, and destruction at the hands of the same 'righteous believers' of said god. The Enlightenment period is a classic object lesson that clearly illustrates this.

And given said examples that result in such 'e-v-i-l reasonings', I can easily see why the 'take it on faith, ... or else!' just isn't good enough anymore to believe in the supernatural world. I mean, if this Superior Being feels the need to threaten people with the Ultimate Punishment for not believing in Him, .....

..... doesn't say much for said deity's 'righteousness and holiness' now, does it.

<_<

[Oakspear]

Is that first post copied from somewhere? If so, where?

[Mark Clarke]

Why can it not be where God can unmistakeably, with total proof, without any room for doubt whatsoever, show himself as a Supreme Being?

He raised a man from the dead, who was then seen of many witnesses. What more proof do you want?

[RainbowsGirl]

As a group we as Mankind are both the victimizes and the victims of one another. We all have caused our own little mini hells and torture chambers howbeit intentioned or not!!! It is due to our sin nature and how easily we can and are deceived.

Hbr 12:1

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1Ti 2:14

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

2Ti 3:13

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Tts 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.

We try very hard to make our ways and /or our standards and morals inpenatratable fortresses, lining them up as closely to GOD’s own, or a religious or alternate belief system. We seek to be loved and accepted…the internal “GOD Vacuum”(We were made to seek GOD)… and for the most part we seek to cause the least amount of harm or offense to ensure our safety and the safety of others.We live in world where morals and standards are fashioned out at any given whim of anyone’s design; more or less to shore up our vast array of vanities, desires, gaps and insecurities. It is a prevailing ideology to be tolerant if not accepting of all belief systems as long as they appear at least on the surface harmless and unobtrusive.

In my humble opinion this defies all logic, and that is how I believe it must appear to GOD!!! God created us, truly marvelously and awesomely in every minute detail he made us in his own likeness. God created us a physical realm we have not even come close to understanding the creative mysteries of our amazing Father GOD. The how’s and why’s of His framing the physical, mental and spiritual realms. They in themselves Declare and Glorify God and His Love, His Goodness and His Wisdom.

We are fitly framed together and GOD knows all the boundaries and measures and every hair on every head. No one has His scope or His vision nor the perfect exactness of GOD. What folly to feel we are capable of ordering our own steps and ensuring our own safety and protection from all the snares set to deceive and entrap us? We can be our own worst enemies and even deceive our own selves. Yet that is not the worst of all threats aimed at us. John 10:10 speaks of our worst and most deceitful enemy. His aim is to steal the truth of GOD from us and to to kill and destroy us. All the wiles of the devil and His minions are revealed by GOD. He in his arrogance and pride sought to usurp the throne of GOD.

Jhn 10:9

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jhn 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

Jhn 10:11

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:12

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Jhn 10:13

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Jhn 10:14

I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Jhn 10:15

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Jhn 10:17

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jhn 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jhn 10:19

There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Jhn 10:20

And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

Jhn 10:21

Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

Jhn 10:22

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

Jhn 10:23

And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

Jhn 10:24

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jhn 10:25

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jhn 10:26

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Jhn 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jhn 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 10:29

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30

I and [my] Father are one.

He the Devil wanted to make himself a god…a designer god. He abandoned GOD and GOD’s way. He became unable and unwilling to submit to GOD and warred an unwinnable war against God. He had been the “angel of light” with free will, honor and authority. How God must have loved him…even now he is allowed to walk to and fro through heaven and earth because of GOD’s Perfect Justice and Way. Yet GOD and his justice has judged him rightly and pronounced sentence upon him, because God cannot be changeable or unfairly just. His perfectness must remain perfect!!!

The Devil's mode of operands is to steal and to kill and to destroy; and we are the only suitable prey he has. God is far and away too Holy Perfect Wise, ALL Powerful, Invincible and Unconquerable to be his prey. We on the other hand make great and suitable prey for him and his minions.. We are subject to vanity and pride as he was. We at our worst are a lot like the devil. We are all too often convinced that we are right in our own eyes and make our own ways better by also abandoning and opposing God with our self- justifications, self –serving self –righteousness. We are at times and to extreme degrees self- determined, self – reliant, self –mitigating, self – seeking, self -serving, and a self –centered bunch of creatures; that oft times are unwilling or unable to submit to God. These traits in balance are not in all aspects detrimental. Abandoning and opposing GOD will bring just eternally unavoidable consequences that I shudder to even imagine! GOD see’s all and knows all…no mere mortal man or heavenly host could handle being GOD we cannot even look upon Him as Moses desired. It would render us dead to see His Glory. He would have to hide us in a clift of a rock and show us his hind most parts as GOD did with Moses. GOD is willing and able to always bless us; every good and right thing comes down from GOD!

What a tender moment with GOD this must have been for Moses. We cannot even imagine the greatness of GOD’s Love toward us!!!This one of my favorite records of having a relationship with GOD!!!

Exd 33:17

And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Exd 33:18

And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

Exd 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Exd 33:20

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Exd 33:21

And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

Exd 33:22

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Exd 33:23

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

To confess our sins convicts us and humbles us, displaying openly before God alone who is there to forgive the repentant and to help us with our inadequacies. To admit and to recognize our own sinful nature, our own guilt and the responsibility and consequences of our foolish and corrupt actions and reminds us that we were made by GOD the creator in a finite way. He made us his children because we are the ones who have a lot to learn.

God is so completely merciful and graciously loving and forbearing toward us in our sins. Yet he is and must remain just. He gave us free will to love or to reject a relationship with him and to choose his way or our own way. He has shown us openly and compassionately the consequences and the rewards that our choices carry. How often have we told ourselves that God doesn’t care if we do this or that; knowing full well what his will truly is. Like as any foolish and unlearned child we can be a demanding thoughtless pitiful bunch. God is not willing to lose anyone of us; He fights for us without end or we would have long ago lost all of our lives battles. We are vulnerable and incapable of saving ourselves or securing our own eternal life, had He, GOD not withstood the attacks with us and beared His arm against our enemies we would be long gone as Satan would openly attack and destroy us and laugh at our calamity!!!

Take a moment and imagine life truly without GOD and the absence of His Presence and His unmatched Love, His Wisdom and His Great Grace and Mercy!!! And my Dearly Beloved Friends and Family, I hope that scares the HELL right out of You ALL; and if it doesn’t, then it most certainly will break my heart to lose any of YOU to HELL and You ALL mean far more to GOD than I could ever understand!!!

This is an in part reply to You Garth, Mark and Oak!!! I will response to your posts individually soon!!!Oak Geisha sent me the article read the botton of the 1st post in this thread it will state the resourse

Ravi on How do you know there is a God?

Please Put my Margins and paragraphs back in I have edited to try to return them but it is submitted as one clump!!! Why???????? I individually indented every piece to fix this again!!!

Edited January 20, 2009 by RainbowsGirl

[Oakspear]

Oak Geisha sent me the article read the botton of the 1st post in this thread it will state the

Gotcha, I see it now. Darn bifocles. :blink:

[GarthP2000]

He raised a man from the dead, who was then seen of many witnesses. What more proof do you want?

... and the following like replies.

Ahh yes. Your proof. ... 'Proof' of witnesses, based on, ... the scriptures and other writings by followers who already believe in said beliefs. Which is based on believing the verbal accounts of earlier followers. Which is based ... catch my drift?. But all based on the accounts of those who already believe.

What is missing here? Independent testimony, records, accounts, etc. of those who haven't already pledged their lives to Christianity to begin with, and that based soly on faith. ... Kinda like getting independent accounts of what was going on in TWI outside of the starry-eyed, loyal accounts of their followers. ... You know. A little bit of objectivity and independent verification.

Show us something that is _outside_ of scripture and other writings from the loyal-till-I-die followers, and then maybe we'll have something viable.

Ok?

[Mark Clarke]

... and the following like replies.

Ahh yes. Your proof. ... 'Proof' of witnesses, based on, ... the scriptures and other writings by followers who already believe in said beliefs. Which is based on believing the verbal accounts of earlier followers. Which is based ... catch my drift?. But all based on the accounts of those who already believe.

What is missing here? Independent testimony, records, accounts, etc. of those who haven't already pledged their lives to Christianity to begin with, and that based soly on faith. ... Kinda like getting independent accounts of what was going on in TWI outside of the starry-eyed, loyal accounts of their followers. ... You know. A little bit of objectivity and independent verification.

Show us something that is _outside_ of scripture and other writings from the loyal-till-I-die followers, and then maybe we'll have something viable.

Ok?

When you say, "who already believe in said beliefs" you are forgetting that the eye witnesses did not believe it at first. They were only convinced because they saw the risen Christ. Every event that we know of, we learned about from eye witnesses. What reason would you have for doubting the testimony of those who saw him? There were many, many people who would have loved to be able to disprove the resurrection, and it would have been easy - just produce the body. But nobody ever did. That fact and the fact that the witnesses claimed to have seen the risen Christ is even attested to by Josephus (even though he himself did not believe).

There are other factors too. It's interesting that you mention "loyal-till-I-die followers." The very fact that they were willing to die rather than renounce their testimony gives it more credence. If it had been fabricated, or in some way proven false, why would the apostles go to their death proclaiming it? What would they have to gain? It wasn't like cults today where a lot of money and power is at stake.

There are a number of other factors that make the very existence of Christianity extremely unlikely if it had not been based on the historical reality of the resurrection. Check out this article by James Patrick Holding for more detail.

Bringing it back to the topic of this thread, it's not that God inflicts punishment on "those who do no more wrong than not believe in a god." He has provided a way for anyone to escape the basic end of all mankind, which is death. And He did a lot to bring that to pass, even though none of us deserved it. For those who reject His plan, what else is there but death? Yet it is complete destruction, not unending torture in fire.

[cman]

I understand Garth's reasoning quite well.

Just because it's written in a book does not make it so.

Have you, Mark, and not to single you out personally,

seen Jesus Christ, Christ or Jesus alive?

Thw whole point of this,

is to point out that some PEOPLE will burn in Hell forever.

Well, I disagree on both points.

'Some people' and 'forever'.

All PEOPLE will experience the fire of hell.

But not forever.

Nor is it something to wait for till after we die.

In fact Hell can be visited at the spirit's will.

As well as heaven, NOW.

This 'people going to burn in hell forever' CRAP.

Is getting boring, or will start yet another war.

What is Hell?

What is the lake of Fire?

What is going to burn?

NO DOUBT we all will experience this great moment.

As well as NEED to to experience the 'heights' of heaven.

So, I'm all for listening IF the one speaking has experience this.

If not, it guess work, based on carnal, natural understanding of what is written.

And not, as the scriptures declare, that the Spirit will show us.

If one can shut up long enough to hear it.

Nothing wrong with learning from books.

But it's a far cry and a WAYYYYY Back Seat to LETTING the Spirit guide, lead and show the secrets that are hidden in plain sight.

[Mark Clarke]

I understand Garth's reasoning quite well.

Just because it's written in a book does not make it so.

Have you, Mark, and not to single you out personally,

seen Jesus Christ, Christ or Jesus alive?

No, but the people who did have given their testimony, as I described above. If one accepts eyewitness testimony for other things, why not for that?

Thw whole point of this,

is to point out that some PEOPLE will burn in Hell forever.

Well, I disagree on both points.

'Some people' and 'forever'.

Interesting. I agree with 'some people' and 'forever' but not 'burn in hell'.

All PEOPLE will experience the fire of hell.

But not forever.

Nor is it something to wait for till after we die.

As you say, we need to define 'fire of hell'.

In fact Hell can be visited at the spirit's will.

As well as heaven, NOW.

This 'people going to burn in hell forever' CRAP.

Is getting boring, or will start yet another war.

Depends on how you define 'heaven' and 'hell'.

What is Hell?

That's the confusion. There are at least three Greek words translated 'hell' in the KJV. One is hades which is simply the state of the dead, and has nothing to do with fire or torture. Everybody experiences that, but it's a state of unconsciousness and corruption.

What is the lake of Fire?

What is going to burn?

The Lake of Fire is a different Greek word: gehenna. It originally meant a garbage dump where they burned refuse. Its Biblical meaning refers to a specific place that will exist in the futute, where the devil and the antichrist and all who reject Christ will be thrown. But it is not endless torture, it is complete and permanent destruction.

NO DOUBT we all will experience this great moment.

As well as NEED to to experience the 'heights' of heaven.

No doubt we will all experience hades (unless we are alive and changed when Christ returns). But the lake of fire is a different matter. And 'heaven' is not promised to the followers of Jesus. We will live with him on a restored earth and rule the nations with him. That's the great message of the Kingdom of God that he preached.

So, I'm all for listening IF the one speaking has experience this.

If not, it guess work, based on carnal, natural understanding of what is written.

And not, as the scriptures declare, that the Spirit will show us.

If one can shut up long enough to hear it.

Nothing wrong with learning from books.

But it's a far cry and a WAYYYYY Back Seat to LETTING the Spirit guide, lead and show the secrets that are hidden in plain sight.

If the knowledge is from the Scriptures it isn't natural, carnal knowledge. The spirit will not contradict what the Scriptures tell us; the Word and the Spirit work together as they are both from God.

[cman]

What is hell or fire to you may not be to me.

[Mark Clarke]

What is hell or fire to you may not be to me.

I'm not talking about what they mean to me or you, I'm just talking about how the Greek Words used in the Bible are defined.

[cman]

greek words mean nothing much to me

used to, not anymore

i suppose i understand what you are saying

if i said i did understand, that would be arrogance i think

and as i said, i didn't post about you personally

so many sayings that are bound by a few words

future

return

and ones present perception of

heaven

earth

God

Christ

ourselves

none of these words can stop what is now

and bind the one willing to see it, feel it, experience it

the future, the past, the present

all rolled up into a continuing journey of discovery

at one's own pace, unless quickened

the sayings

in the beginning was God

all the way through Revelations

is all here now

fire, cool fire, hot fire

the baptism of fire draws a flood of tears

the bible

i don't 'see' a lot of it

but have do and will as it continues to unfold

but neither the bible

or the thousands of other scriptures

can contain or explain or unfold the Christ in us all

the Christ, the Spirit that is within and all around us

to take scriptures and develop a belief is backwards

but many begin there

the scriptures themselves came from within many

this must be seen, that which is the source

cause certainly the results can be a blessing or curse

depending on how they are seen, perspective from

do the scriptures rule us

or are we to seek the source

scripture is not law, all of it

though it is dealt with in that fashion

including the new testament books

and projected on to others to rule-enslavement

rather then to speak by the spirit-unlimited freedom

[kimberly]

A Good God does not "SEND," the operative word for me, to hell or anywhere else. What about a bad god? Where does a bad god "SEND" anybody?

That usage of the word "send" seems to dictate absolute rule and control of the sender without freedom of will or thought or choice of the sendee.

Send me to the moon, let me dance among the stars....ya'll know that song. Tiptoe Through The Tulips is another good one.

[RainbowsGirl]

Kimberly Wrote:

A Good God does not "SEND," the operative word for me, to hell or anywhere else. What about a bad god? Where does a bad god "SEND" anybody?

Kimberly,

You are entitled to Your opinions and of course your selection of gods; Although, I would have more respect for your opinion, if you, at all seemed to have read this thread and were responding to it as a whole. Other than breezing in, to offer your unsubstantiated opinion...in other words... opinion lacking enough substance to discuss;

Perhaps bothering to read the thread would help and adding some rationale to your opinion??? Like for instance why does The GOD of The Bible not have absolute rule, right, authority and ability and justification to send any of his creations to hell for abandoning Him. Incidentally it ultimately involves their individual free will choice.

Discussing The GOD of The Bible or any of His actions will absolutely include and involve a discussion of His Word and His Will to be credible and substanciated. Otherwise it is a bias and unbased opinion and becomes in essense a reactionary feeling being expressed. That is not being fair to GOD who You are accusing of being unfair and unjust. You expect His fairness...He expects Yours!!! RG.

That usage of the word "send" seems to dictate absolute rule and control of the sender without freedom of will or thought or choice of the sendee.

Where is your power as the "sendee"???? I can tell You it is in your free will to choose!!! RG

Send me to the moon, let me dance among the stars....ya'll know that song. Tiptoe Through The Tulips is another good one.

RG wrote in post #1:

2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?”

Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).

3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?”

No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief!

Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret.

Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits

Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry

Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something

Luk 16:19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Luk 16:27

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG)

Edited January 22, 2009 by RainbowsGirl

[cman]

a certain rich man

a certain beggar

yeah.....

perhaps we should look at what's at our gate

and the sores

[doojable]

That is not being fair to GOD who You are accusing of being unfair and unjust. You expect His fairness...He expects Yours!!! RG.

He expects fairness?... from us?

Really?

I haven't read the Bible in years and even I know this to be a false statement, akin to the trite one-liners we became accustomed to in TWI.

Statements like this are the reason I hate organized religion. They are over-bearing and control-seeking.

Edited January 22, 2009 by doojable

[geisha779]

A Good God does not "SEND," the operative word for me, to hell or anywhere else. What about a bad god? Where does a bad god "SEND" anybody?

That usage of the word "send" seems to dictate absolute rule and control of the sender without freedom of will or thought or choice of the sendee.

Send me to the moon, let me dance among the stars....ya'll know that song. Tiptoe Through The Tulips is another good one.

I too am curious what the point is here. Clearly articulated in the first post was the freewill choice of man. . . . to CHOOSE God or not. Was there a confusion over what is being discussed?

Did you get further than the title?

Doctrinally a few varying points have been made here. . . . a discussion about the second death. . . . eternal punishment. Some well thought out points have been made.

Song lyrics are great, but how about a more in-depth doctrinal contribution.

Do you believe that God is NOT absolute in His ability despite our freewill? Could you consider free-will a bit more coherently?

If God choose you before the foundation of the world. . . i.e. before you were born. . . is free will a misnomer?

The bible says we were dead and our faith is nothing but God's gift to us. .. . . . so, could that cause one to consider free-will a bit more closely?

What about the doctrine of predestination?

Does our free will override God's choosing? Could He still be just in condemnation if He chooses? What about vessels of destruction?

You have not choosen me but I have choosen you.. . . . .

Lot's to consider and more than song lyrics can answer.

RG I am GLAD you liked the article and I appreciate the discussion. . . . I will be back later, but your posts are very interesting and deserve a careful consideration.

[RainbowsGirl]

Doojable wrote:

He expects fairness?

No excuse me, that was my concluded personal one liner from my knowledge of GOD's Word as a whole. It is not being fair to accuse GOD of being unjust...false unsubstantiated accusations are not being fair to GOD. He expects that in order to be saved by HIM that You know HIM;...He does require that You know HIM and HIS Word to be able to choose with the free will He as the Creator gave You; as to whether or not You choose in accordance with His will or Your own will is your responsibly and choice!

You may excuse Yourself to HIM all that You want in the end, but it will still be HIS concluded judgments that are exacted.

GOD states all in HIS word and concludes that we are inexcusable in HIS Day of Judgment for not choosing eternal life with HIM. It's a choice with consequences... and GOD made some vessels for destruction.

I personally don't challenge HIS Wisdom, HIS Understanding HIS Judgment, HIS Justice nor do I oppose HIM. I am not at loggerheads with Him by my free will choice. To understand and to know GOD is a choice. Everyone chooses what is right in their own eyes. I believe that GOD's thoughts and ways are higher than mine...that I am the clay and he is the potter. I LOVE everything I know about GOD!!!

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Mat 7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.

I see Your point to a degree.... GOD desires that we are fair to HIM and also knows all and hopes that ALL will be fair to HIM and see HIM as He is. He asks us to be imators of HIM and that we all come to an accurate knowledge of HIS Word and are saved. In His doctrine ,reproofs, corrections and exhortations to us that is demonstrated. No, He doesn't outright require it, but those who love and understand GOD see and hear HIM and are fair to HIM. The things of GOD are is spirtually decerned!!!

1Cr 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Really? Thank You for the correction!!!

I haven't read the Bible in years and even I know this to be a false statement, akin to the trite one-liners we became accustomed to in TWI.

...I am not presenting a TWI viewpoint...it is absolutely a Bible based view point...so your accusation is totally unfounded in the TWI respect....TWI didn't twist all of GOD's Word up....Although, they were profoundly great at teaching their people to twist GOD and HIS Word up to suit themselves by their example and behavior.

Statements like this are the reason I hate organized religion. They are over-bearing and control-seeking.

Edited January 22, 2009 by RainbowsGirl

[WordWolf]

I'm not ignoring this thread.

Sadly, I do not have my answers all typed out at present.

I shall type them out when I can and join in.

(In case anyone was curious. I think this warrants a better response than I can just rattle off.)

[RainbowsGirl]

When you say, "who already believe in said beliefs" you are forgetting that the eye witnesses did not believe it at first. They were only convinced because they saw the risen Christ. Every event that we know of, we learned about from eye witnesses. What reason would you have for doubting the testimony of those who saw him? There were many, many people who would have loved to be able to disprove the resurrection, and it would have been easy - just produce the body. But nobody ever did. That fact and the fact that the witnesses claimed to have seen the risen Christ is even attested to by Josephus (even though he himself did not believe).

There are other factors too. It's interesting that you mention "loyal-till-I-die followers." The very fact that they were willing to die rather than renounce their testimony gives it more credence. If it had been fabricated, or in some way proven false, why would the apostles go to their death proclaiming it? What would they have to gain? It wasn't like cults today where a lot of money and power is at stake.

There are a number of other factors that make the very existence of Christianity extremely unlikely if it had not been based on the historical reality of the resurrection. Check out this article by James Patrick Holding for more detail.

Bringing it back to the topic of this thread, it's not that God inflicts punishment on "those who do no more wrong than not believe in a god." He has provided a way for anyone to escape the basic end of all mankind, which is death. And He did a lot to bring that to pass, even though none of us deserved it. For those who reject His plan, what else is there but death? Yet it is complete destruction, not unending torture in fire.

Thank You Mark for Your contributions, although we don't completely agree youhave made sound documentable and credible statements!!!

[RumRunner]

This has been an interesting thread so far. I'm certainly glad I do not worship the god that has been portrayed here using hell as "the final solution" - I could not stomach the revulsion I would feel about worshiping such a vicious, jealous and cruel god - nor the revulsion I would feel with having an earthly relationship with such people as believe that this is the god who rules the universe.