Well, seeing as how the emminent "doctor's" WURD's chief fan at this website has come right out and declared that he willfully utilizes a logical falacy in order to ferret out the great truths in the Vicster's written legacy (see "Begging the question" at "skepdic.com"), I guess it's not too hard to completely dismiss his earthshattering "research".
Persuing such a depraved agenda eventually HAS to take a toll on one's mental health, though, wouldn't you think? It's so sad when you think about all the wasted effort that has gone down the rat hole. Time could be better spent doing just about anything, grooming roadkill, polishing firehydrants, or maybe making dentures for chickens. ANYTHING else would make more sense...
If the "clues" are hidden in "the revelation that wierwille was getting"......does that suggest one is to study the intricate details of wierwille's short stories?
Embedded in a sleuth searching of mystical secrecy, if one were to step off the westbound train in Jubbelpor, India and travel a camel's day (eight miles) due east......the secret inscription on the Balaam A$$ Market Wall, flanked by red drapes, gives precise GPS coordinates to a secret vault under the Wierwille Barn.... the exact location where wierwille discarded notes and paradigms of revelations long abandoned.
Kinda silly how most pfal students actually thought that they were attending a Bible class.
Time could be better spent doing just about anything, grooming roadkill, polishing firehydrants, or maybe making dentures for chickens. ANYTHING else would make more sense...
You mean something like this?
at least this is harmless, amusing, or only slightly annoying, according to one's particular disposition. Troubling? No....
Kinda silly how most pfal students actually thought that they were attending a Bible class.
I noticed in session three, he scratched his nose 3 times with his right hand at 3 different points during the teaching. I think that means that his words in that session were completely, completely, completely blessed.
I noticed in session three, he scratched his nose 3 times with his right hand at 3 different points during the teaching. I think that means that his words in that session were completely, completely, completely blessed.
<snip>
signs of a liar:
- ... a liar will somehow cover his/her mouth and throat... Touching other parts of the face with some frequency in any of a number of ways is also consistent with the behavior of a liar. most lists include nose touching.
- Excessive gestures are important body language signs indicating lies. In a subconscious effort to enhance believability, a liar will promote his/her words with unnaturally pronounced gesturing... on a subconscious level, the body language serves to divert attention from the dishonest words and face.
- frequently mumbles or speaks in a lowered, monotonous tone, especially at the exact time lies are being uttered. Such modulations in speech are primarily signs that either the liar lacks confidence that the lies are believable, or that the liar feels guilty about telling the lies. (CFS - "father told me to shut up")
- Shifting from foot to foot is often the body language of a liar.
- A liar usually tries to change the subject from whatever discussion is prompting his/her lies. Any conversational signs of this desire to move on before the subject is resolved of its own accord should make you wary of lies.
- someone keeping their body somewhat askew, pointed away from you... a flight instinct, facilitating a lack of eye contact, or any number of other subconscious body language workings.
- A liar frequently interrupts his/her lies with throat clearing, small coughs, and/or sniffles.
- ...beware the person who uses (and particularly overuses) language like "honestly," "believe me," "to tell the truth," etc.
I saw a lot of these in vpw's videos, and even more so in lcm's.
I think that in Wierwille's case, that he was more than happy if he had you thinking well of him and searching for those secrets.
I bet people have wasted decades on that particular treadmill.
Say what you mean and mean what you say only applied if the decievers wanted to know where you really were coming from in order to counter your influence as it applied to dominance.
While I agree Wierwille was quite the accomplished liar I can't really give you that list below potato. Those may be body language things that liars do - but perfectly "normal" people do some of the same things and it is no indication they are lying. I don't know where you got that list - but it is sorely lacking in credibility - a few comments interspersed below based on my interaction with people...BTW my comments are no reflection of you - simply my observations about that list
signs of a liar:
- ... a liar will somehow cover his/her mouth and throat... Touching other parts of the face with some frequency in any of a number of ways is also consistent with the behavior of a liar. most lists include nose touching.
The person who is ashamed of their poor teeth and covers their mouth when feeling like their teeth are exposed? The young geek whose poor face is covered in acne and is constantly touching his face during a conversation?
- Excessive gestures are important body language signs indicating lies. In a subconscious effort to enhance believability, a liar will promote his/her words with unnaturally pronounced gesturing... on a subconscious level, the body language serves to divert attention from the dishonest words and face.
Every Italian, Brazilian, Portuguese, Russian, and many Chinese use a LOT of gesturing when they speak - this does not make them liars - it makes it a learned cultural behavior
- frequently mumbles or speaks in a lowered, monotonous tone, especially at the exact time lies are being uttered. Such modulations in speech are primarily signs that either the liar lacks confidence that the lies are believable, or that the liar feels guilty about telling the lies. (CFS - "father told me to shut up")
I know plenty of geeks - serious geeks who wouldn't know how to speak in anything BUT a monotone and frequently mumble
- Shifting from foot to foot is often the body language of a liar.
I have two artificial hips. The operation resulted in one leg being 5mm shorter than the other. This means I cannot have both feet level on the ground if both feet are pointed straight at you. Hence I will put all of my weight on one leg and when it is tired I shift to the other, about every 30 seconds or so during a conversation - more on that below
- A liar usually tries to change the subject from whatever discussion is prompting his/her lies. Any conversational signs of this desire to move on before the subject is resolved of its own accord should make you wary of lies.
This one I can give the list maker
- someone keeping their body somewhat askew, pointed away from you... a flight instinct, facilitating a lack of eye contact, or any number of other subconscious body language workings.
Per above about the prosthetic hips... The only way for me to have both feet level on the ground is to have my left foot pointed at you but the right one is a step forward to compensate for the bone length difference - the right foot/leg is also turned out at a 45 degree angle which looks like I am going to take a step to the right and away from you...to further complicate it when my right leg is turned out my torso is shifted slight to the left.
Eye contact? I have always held eye contact until over the years people told me that since I have very dark eyes it often made them feel uncomfortable when I held eye contact...so I learned to make people more comfortable with intermittent eye contact
- A liar frequently interrupts his/her lies with throat clearing, small coughs, and/or sniffles.
So do frequent smokers...
- ...beware the person who uses (and particularly overuses) language like "honestly," "believe me," "to tell the truth," etc.
Overusing perhaps but simply using those words in the course of a conversation is no indication of lying. If someone asks me if I feel OK, but I have a cold, I might say "To tell the truth I feel like crap."
I saw a lot of these in vpw's videos, and even more so in lcm's.
The only rule for faith and practice for wierwille......was the revelation he was getting???
Well, he said his only rule for faith and practice was GOD'S WORD.
Now many thought that meant the KJV, but then we saw him point out errors there, so we had to look back a notch to the critical Greek texts to see VPE's only rule for faith and practice. He had to have something more straight than the KJV to spot where it was crooked, he had to have some OTHER RULE or RULER that he went by to judge the KJV in error. It sounded to us like "critical" meant "most crucially important" so the critical Greek texts, we reasoned, must be his only rule for faith and practice.
But then SOME of us found out that those critical Greek texts didn't agree with each other, AND we saw some had glaring errors, AND a small few of us noticed the critical Greek texts were NOT ancient nor critically important BUT were relatively modern. It shocked me to find out that the ink was still wet on the Stevens (oldest) in 1550! We were told all these things about the critical Greek texts but few of us assimilated it.
So some small few of us went back another notch in search of VPW's only rule and landed on the ancient tests ONLY TO FIND that they to had problems: only went back to the 400's, were fragmentary, were in disagreement with each other, had errors.
So then we took a leap of faith and said AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY GIVEN was VPW's only rule for faith and practice. But HOW did he access that? I figure hardly anyone reading this now in 2009 ever got this far back then. I know I didn't, not until the mid to late 80's and even then I still didn't have the answer to it, only the question.
If you haven't gone down this path before and long ago, then you might ask yourself WHY? What were you doing that kept you from trying to figure all this out? Did you leave it to others? Were you too busy? Did you not care?
Anyway, it all came together in 1998 for me and I finally got it. I had to have someone show me.
Now I'm SO happy that I DO have an only rule for faith and practice, it has physical weight,it's not abstract, it's bigger than me and I dare not correct it, it has a Library of Congress number (or set of numbers) and it's my standard that I plunk on my Table of Challenge. Do you old time posters remember me talking about all this years ago?
Oakspear and Abigail seemed to be the only ones who got it back then. They didn't accept it, but the at least GOT it. If you're just getting it now, join the club and give it some thought. It's a new set of synapses waiting for your pondering.
Remember in the quyotes we saw on the other thread that the night before the snow in 1942 VPW asked God to give him something that he'd "never have to back up on." He and God worksed something out were Go would show him the end of the road, the only rule he couldn't break, the rule for faith and practice. Yes, he got it by revelation. Now we can get it in printed fonts. If you don't accept written PFAL as your only rule for faith and practice, THEN WHAT IS????
Remember, a rule for faith and practice must be the end of the road. You can't appear to a higher authority to change any of it, otherwise THAT HIGHER AUTHORITY will have to be your unbreakable ruler.
A rule for faith and practice can't be abstract (VPW's was, but that was an God's behest to solve a deep problem), and it mus have weight. It must be readable by other people where they read the same thing you read.
What is YOUR only rule for faith and practice? Is it a document that's unalterable, or do you wing it as you go. If you wing it then YOU are your only rule for faith and practice. If you alter a physical document, take exception with some aspect of it, then that document is NOT your ruler.
What is YOUR only rule for faith and practice?
If you haven't pondered this your just beginning (at best) to hear PFAL.
Where'd that saying, "the only rule for faith and practice" come from?? Â
Wasn't it the Geerite clan that came up with that? Â
Was it ever said at twi?
Regardless, used by people who thought they had the market cornered on truth, but who didn't, it can be a very dangerous thing to use against people in an organization who'd rather have it's people line up lockstep behind them than really espouse the truth.
Where'd that saying, "the only rule for faith and practice" come from?? Â
Wasn't it the Geerite clan that came up with that? Â
Was it ever said at twi?
Regardless, used by people who thought they had the market cornered on truth, but who didn't, it can be a very dangerous thing to use against people in an organization who'd rather have it's people line up lockstep behind them than really espouse the truth.
Session 7 of PFAL.
Please come see more detail to this in the "Snow thread" where the same topic is being covered.
When he was alive half the people in TWI reached just for the chance just to touch his robe.
But now it feels incredibly icky -- yuck!"
(The rest of the time though, ''it felt very good, honest, and right.")
I'm not sure how you mean, "Boy is that rich! " What The Hey.
It is certainly not how I'd refer to it if I was close to sexual abuse victims, or any of the ones who committed suicide, or any of the ones who fell into other forms of self destruction in their despair. I wouldn't refer to it like you did here if I was pressed to. I don't even know any of these victims, but frankly, because of the way I use "boy is that rich", the way you seem to employ it angers me.
Those people who reached for him like the woman did to Christ should have been taught better by Wierwille himself. He seems to have gotten what he wanted. He was in control.
The phrase "rule of faith and practice" is from the catechism, going back hundreds of years. Wierwille may have used the phrase, but he didn't invent it.
I knew that the critical Greek texts were based on authors' comparisons of older texts, and that they didn't agree with each other, back around 1974-5, when I bought an interlinear New Testament in New York. I was in high school, and had been a grad for about 3 years. So no, I never "left it to others" to tell me what to think.
But most differences between the various texts are minor spelling variations. Very few are on the magnitude of the added text on the end of the Gospel of Matthew, for instance. (The Old Testament is also highly accurate because of the Massorah.) Wierwille wanted us to use PFAL to help us understand the Bible. He never thought it should supplant the Bible. What did he say was the greatest secret in the world today?
Frankly, Mike, as messed up as Wierwille was, he'd a kicked your tushie if you'd gone to him with this new religion of yours.
You're just doing the same thing that we did back then. We were so enthralled with being "spiritual" that we tried harder and harder to find "truths" that nobody else had found. Religions everywhere do this. On the one hand, they try to find something unique, the "answer" that nobody else has. On the flip side, they tend to ritualize the personal experience.
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waysider
He got his "revelation" from white supremacy propaganda.
His "secrets" were hidden at the bottom of a Drambuie filled coffee mug.
All hail the Reverend Dr. Cyclops.
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George Aar
Well, seeing as how the emminent "doctor's" WURD's chief fan at this website has come right out and declared that he willfully utilizes a logical falacy in order to ferret out the great truths in the Vicster's written legacy (see "Begging the question" at "skepdic.com"), I guess it's not too hard to completely dismiss his earthshattering "research".
Persuing such a depraved agenda eventually HAS to take a toll on one's mental health, though, wouldn't you think? It's so sad when you think about all the wasted effort that has gone down the rat hole. Time could be better spent doing just about anything, grooming roadkill, polishing firehydrants, or maybe making dentures for chickens. ANYTHING else would make more sense...
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skyrider
If the "clues" are hidden in "the revelation that wierwille was getting"......does that suggest one is to study the intricate details of wierwille's short stories?
Embedded in a sleuth searching of mystical secrecy, if one were to step off the westbound train in Jubbelpor, India and travel a camel's day (eight miles) due east......the secret inscription on the Balaam A$$ Market Wall, flanked by red drapes, gives precise GPS coordinates to a secret vault under the Wierwille Barn.... the exact location where wierwille discarded notes and paradigms of revelations long abandoned.
Kinda silly how most pfal students actually thought that they were attending a Bible class.
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Ham
You mean something like this?
at least this is harmless, amusing, or only slightly annoying, according to one's particular disposition. Troubling? No....
I'd chalk it up to "mass hysteria"..
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oldiesman
:)
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waysider
I noticed in session three, he scratched his nose 3 times with his right hand at 3 different points during the teaching. I think that means that his words in that session were completely, completely, completely blessed.
Shhhhhhh!!------It's a secret.
The DaVictster's Code
Coming soon to a theater near you.
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potato
signs of a liar:
I saw a lot of these in vpw's videos, and even more so in lcm's.
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JeffSjo
I think that in Wierwille's case, that he was more than happy if he had you thinking well of him and searching for those secrets.
I bet people have wasted decades on that particular treadmill.
Say what you mean and mean what you say only applied if the decievers wanted to know where you really were coming from in order to counter your influence as it applied to dominance.
(added in eding)
I'm going to go now. Catch up wit ya later.
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RumRunner
While I agree Wierwille was quite the accomplished liar I can't really give you that list below potato. Those may be body language things that liars do - but perfectly "normal" people do some of the same things and it is no indication they are lying. I don't know where you got that list - but it is sorely lacking in credibility - a few comments interspersed below based on my interaction with people...BTW my comments are no reflection of you - simply my observations about that list
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Mike
Well, he said his only rule for faith and practice was GOD'S WORD.
Now many thought that meant the KJV, but then we saw him point out errors there, so we had to look back a notch to the critical Greek texts to see VPE's only rule for faith and practice. He had to have something more straight than the KJV to spot where it was crooked, he had to have some OTHER RULE or RULER that he went by to judge the KJV in error. It sounded to us like "critical" meant "most crucially important" so the critical Greek texts, we reasoned, must be his only rule for faith and practice.
But then SOME of us found out that those critical Greek texts didn't agree with each other, AND we saw some had glaring errors, AND a small few of us noticed the critical Greek texts were NOT ancient nor critically important BUT were relatively modern. It shocked me to find out that the ink was still wet on the Stevens (oldest) in 1550! We were told all these things about the critical Greek texts but few of us assimilated it.
So some small few of us went back another notch in search of VPW's only rule and landed on the ancient tests ONLY TO FIND that they to had problems: only went back to the 400's, were fragmentary, were in disagreement with each other, had errors.
So then we took a leap of faith and said AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY GIVEN was VPW's only rule for faith and practice. But HOW did he access that? I figure hardly anyone reading this now in 2009 ever got this far back then. I know I didn't, not until the mid to late 80's and even then I still didn't have the answer to it, only the question.
If you haven't gone down this path before and long ago, then you might ask yourself WHY? What were you doing that kept you from trying to figure all this out? Did you leave it to others? Were you too busy? Did you not care?
Anyway, it all came together in 1998 for me and I finally got it. I had to have someone show me.
Now I'm SO happy that I DO have an only rule for faith and practice, it has physical weight,it's not abstract, it's bigger than me and I dare not correct it, it has a Library of Congress number (or set of numbers) and it's my standard that I plunk on my Table of Challenge. Do you old time posters remember me talking about all this years ago?
Oakspear and Abigail seemed to be the only ones who got it back then. They didn't accept it, but the at least GOT it. If you're just getting it now, join the club and give it some thought. It's a new set of synapses waiting for your pondering.
Remember in the quyotes we saw on the other thread that the night before the snow in 1942 VPW asked God to give him something that he'd "never have to back up on." He and God worksed something out were Go would show him the end of the road, the only rule he couldn't break, the rule for faith and practice. Yes, he got it by revelation. Now we can get it in printed fonts. If you don't accept written PFAL as your only rule for faith and practice, THEN WHAT IS????
Remember, a rule for faith and practice must be the end of the road. You can't appear to a higher authority to change any of it, otherwise THAT HIGHER AUTHORITY will have to be your unbreakable ruler.
A rule for faith and practice can't be abstract (VPW's was, but that was an God's behest to solve a deep problem), and it mus have weight. It must be readable by other people where they read the same thing you read.
What is YOUR only rule for faith and practice? Is it a document that's unalterable, or do you wing it as you go. If you wing it then YOU are your only rule for faith and practice. If you alter a physical document, take exception with some aspect of it, then that document is NOT your ruler.
What is YOUR only rule for faith and practice?
If you haven't pondered this your just beginning (at best) to hear PFAL.
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JeffSjo
So Mike,
Have you heard what Wierwille did to those who disagreed with his only rule of faith and practice, Wierwille!?
Wait a minute, I mean .....
Wierwille according to Darby.....
Wierwille according to Bullinger.....
Wierwille according to Lamsa.....
Wierwille according to Leonard.....
Wierwille according to Pillai.....
Wierwille according to Roberts.....
etc. etc.
Was destroying lives biblical according to the God Breathed Word? Or was the God Breathed Word twisted to justify Wierwille destroying lives?
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What The Hey
Wierwille destroying lives? Boy is that rich!
When he was alive half the people in TWI reached just for the chance just to touch his robe.
But now it feels incredibly icky -- yuck!"
(The rest of the time though, ''it felt very good, honest, and right.")
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now I see
Where'd that saying, "the only rule for faith and practice" come from?? Â
Wasn't it the Geerite clan that came up with that? Â
Was it ever said at twi?
Regardless, used by people who thought they had the market cornered on truth, but who didn't, it can be a very dangerous thing to use against people in an organization who'd rather have it's people line up lockstep behind them than really espouse the truth.
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Mike
Session 7 of PFAL.
Please come see more detail to this in the "Snow thread" where the same topic is being covered.
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JeffSjo
I'm not sure how you mean, "Boy is that rich!
" What The Hey.
It is certainly not how I'd refer to it if I was close to sexual abuse victims, or any of the ones who committed suicide, or any of the ones who fell into other forms of self destruction in their despair. I wouldn't refer to it like you did here if I was pressed to. I don't even know any of these victims, but frankly, because of the way I use "boy is that rich", the way you seem to employ it angers me.
Those people who reached for him like the woman did to Christ should have been taught better by Wierwille himself. He seems to have gotten what he wanted. He was in control.
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potato
actually I started a thread on it because the snowstorm thread is so long and has branched so many times.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=19165
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shazdancer
NowISee,
The phrase "rule of faith and practice" is from the catechism, going back hundreds of years. Wierwille may have used the phrase, but he didn't invent it.
Googled it
Mike,
I knew that the critical Greek texts were based on authors' comparisons of older texts, and that they didn't agree with each other, back around 1974-5, when I bought an interlinear New Testament in New York. I was in high school, and had been a grad for about 3 years. So no, I never "left it to others" to tell me what to think.
But most differences between the various texts are minor spelling variations. Very few are on the magnitude of the added text on the end of the Gospel of Matthew, for instance. (The Old Testament is also highly accurate because of the Massorah.) Wierwille wanted us to use PFAL to help us understand the Bible. He never thought it should supplant the Bible. What did he say was the greatest secret in the world today?
Frankly, Mike, as messed up as Wierwille was, he'd a kicked your tushie if you'd gone to him with this new religion of yours.
You're just doing the same thing that we did back then. We were so enthralled with being "spiritual" that we tried harder and harder to find "truths" that nobody else had found. Religions everywhere do this. On the one hand, they try to find something unique, the "answer" that nobody else has. On the flip side, they tend to ritualize the personal experience.
Nothing new.
Shaz
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waysider
The secret chamber pot in PFAL
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