II Cor. 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
There is a difference between Godly sorrow which leads to repentance, and worldly sorrow which is guilt that doesn't do anything for you. If God works something in your heart it's for the purpose of helping you grow. Most of those guilt trips you describe are not based on Scripture, as far as I can see.
Ask God to show you from His Word whether any of those accusations are genuine. If they aren't, ask Him to help you overcome the guilt feelings. If they are, He will also help you to change whatever needs to change. There is no profit in staying in a guilty state your whole life.
BTW, if Eve is stupid for being deceived, what does that make Adam? He wasn't deceived, he walked in with his eyes wide open (I Tim. 2:14).
And contrary to what TWI taught, sometimes sickness can be a way for God to get your attention when something is wrong in your life. But the Bible does not say that all sickness is for that purpose. We live in a fallen world and sickness is a part of life until the new world comes. (You may be interested in an article, The More Abundant Life?, on my website.)
Thanks so much for your replies. Mark, I will check out your website sometime this weekend.
So much of what I see is what I would call performance-based Christianity rather than faith-based Christianity. I think performance-based drives me to guilt. Yeah, I probably do need to keep the house cleaner, but sometimes I just have something to do like play with the dog or read a good book. Which brings me to.....
I really don't like to read the Bible any more!!!!! I can never decide whether what I'm reading is right, or whether someone else's interpretation of it is right, or whether TWI..... and then I feel guilty because I don't read the Bible.
I think sometimes what I'm looking for is someone to just say, "Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves you anyway."
I know that Godly sorrow leads to repentance, rethinking your actions, evaluating your sin and asking God's forgiveness and then working toward changes. But what I'm talking about is the guilt I feel about stuff I didn't even have control over, and especially not measuring up to the standards of TWI, even though we left in 1996. Those standards of perfection are still there, rattling around in my head and making me wonder if I'll ever get it right.
I'm really sorry about the things that you suffered through and still affect you. I usually refer to these things as bruises and/or wounds figuratively speaking.
For me things in my marraige things were tough. I was not ready to be a husband in almost any manner at all. The fact that I didn't commit the abuses that I grew up around wasn't enough to keep me from having huge faults and being a big jerk sometimes. Even in the best of circumstances with a competant minister things would not have been easy for us.
Enter my splinter group and their theology.....
While fighting for things to be better in my marriage I had to contend with my splinter group leader along with his toadies and goons.
Their faults were abundant in the false prophecy category.
Glorification of the leader was the norm. They even called him by the phrase "the Word in the Flesh."
Obedience by abuse went hand in hand with flattery. Whichever worked was the method used to bring about obedience.
All women belong to the king was the norm. Except they usually used phrases as "shepherd" and "Sheep" to communicate the same idea.
Since I was in disagreement with much of the doctrine and I had challenges in my marriage they were capable of turning my wife against me and she was a willing participant in the multitude of mind games they threw at me over the course of a few years.
___________
I'm sharing these things so that you may see where I'm coming from when I say this.....
You and your family were battered by TWI abuse. A lot of what TWI screws up for people is what should be simple; the concepts behind right, wrong, and Godly sorrow.
After being battered for a while with heartless abuse it takes some time for all of us to see these things straight I think.
Much of you what you were battered with in terms of you being wrong was B.S. And now you sound wounded to me. I hope you continue to sort it out. I've read enough of your posts to feel confident that you will sort it out better than you seem to think you will right now....I'm just saying.
PEACE,
JEFF
(edited for clarity)
(added in editing)
If you feel guilty about being a woman, that is not right.
If someone feels guilty about commiting a crime, that is probably right.
As far as Godly sorrow verses worldly sorrow I think that the scriptural definition is simple in concept. But like most simple things, actually carrying them out can be difficult. Espescially if we are already damaged goods so to speak.
If I'm feeling guilty about something that I've done wrong I can go one of two diections IMO.
If I go the route of feeling sorry for myself and then feel like giving up that would tend to be worldly sorrow. If I'm beAting myself up so badly that I start thinking about suicide and/or death being better than having to deal with my guilt then IT IS WORLDLY SORROW.
If I'm crushed by my guilt but manage to get back up on my feet, do better, and learn my lesson and fight to change while thanking God for his mercy, well, THAT IS GODLY SORROW.
one more itty little bitty thing.....
If I make for myself a habit of sexual, and ministerial abuse over the course of years and simultaneously lead people into thinking that I'm a man-of-god, well,MY NAME MIGHT BE WIERWILLE. (I'm thinking seared conscience)
Thanks so much for your replies. Mark, I will check out your website sometime this weekend.
So much of what I see is what I would call performance-based Christianity rather than faith-based Christianity. I think performance-based drives me to guilt. Yeah, I probably do need to keep the house cleaner, but sometimes I just have something to do like play with the dog or read a good book. Which brings me to.....
I really don't like to read the Bible any more!!!!! I can never decide whether what I'm reading is right, or whether someone else's interpretation of it is right, or whether TWI..... and then I feel guilty because I don't read the Bible.
You're right about "performance-based Christianity." Too much emphasis is placed on what we do and think. Yeah, we do have to try to do and think the right things, but God helps us with that through His Spirit and His Word - much more than we were taught in TWI. And what "the right things" are is to be gotten from God's Word, not from what people say. That's why it's important to read the Bible for ourselves and not be deceived by any group's opinions.
That brings me to your comment that you don't like to read the Bible. I completely understand. I went through that myself. Have you tried reading a different version? I found that reading the old KJV reminded me a lot of The Way, plus because it was the same old words I'd heard over and over again, it tended to be like recitation in my mind. But when I read it in other versions, with slightly different wording, it seems fresher and also less like TWI. I like the NASV (New American Standard Version) these days, and sometimes NIV (New International Version) or The Message. In any version, though, there is the question you mention of whether that version or translation is right. That's where comparison comes in. But I think you'll find that the more you read, the more you see the "Big Picture" and the more you see how things fit into that picture. We missed that a lot in TWI because we were reading VPW's doctrines into it, instead of letting the Bible speak for itself.
I think sometimes what I'm looking for is someone to just say, "Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves you anyway."
Okay, I'll say it. "Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves you anyway." I have had a hard time accepting that at times too. But He's still there for me. His patience is supernatural!
I know that Godly sorrow leads to repentance, rethinking your actions, evaluating your sin and asking God's forgiveness and then working toward changes. But what I'm talking about is the guilt I feel about stuff I didn't even have control over, and especially not measuring up to the standards of TWI, even though we left in 1996. Those standards of perfection are still there, rattling around in my head and making me wonder if I'll ever get it right.
In addition to "working toward changes" God also works in us to change us from within. His Word and His Spirit can have that function. In fact I'm convinced that's the primary function of the Holy Spirit, more than "operating all nine all the time" as we used to say. So often we spin our wheels trying to change ourselves instead of relying on God's power. That doesn't mean we do nothing, but it does mean we have to rely on His ability and not ours.
And by the way, we'll never "get it right" completely in this life. And God knows that but called us to eternal life in His Kingdom anyway. As we do our best God recognizes our heart. Ironically, even VPW used to say that looking at the world or ourselves causes us to fail, but turning your eyes on Jesus is the secret to a holy life. Sadly, too many people in TWI used to focus on everything but Jesus even though they quoted that.
As for things you have no control over, of course God doesn't blame you, He's a righteous judge. I'm sure you know that, even though you still have guilt feelings. It was just pounded into our heads. I think we need to pour our hearts out to God and let Him fix them. I'm still working on that, but I'm getting better.
He does not care that your dishes are sitting in the sink or the bathroom hasn't been cleaned
any more than you do when you go over and see your child at their house.
HE does care that you feel loved. HE cares that you know that he forgave you of your sins already. HE cares that you are still and know that he is God. Remember the story of Mary sitting at the feet of Christ to hear his words. That made him happy. HE felt it was more important than making the house perfect.
The dishes aren't going to rise up and revolt they will be there when you are ready to wash them but you can not get a return on the time you have with your children or the time that we all need to take a break from the continual grind of the day to day. A spotless house has absolutely nothing to do with a spotless mind.
Now I also want to say thanks Mark for those words of wisdom regarding changing the style of bible you read.
I think for me that just may be what I need to do.
Exploring our feelings and why we feel a certain way is quite the task.
I can feel 'guilty' or like I've done something wrong even when I haven't. Finding the reasons is and has been interesting. Like I could feel something that doesn't seem to be about me at all, but about something that will show it's self eventually.
Just life I reckon. I quit worrying about how I feel and more about finding out why I feel a certain way, sometimes. Sometimes I see why and sometimes I don't.
Doing things that need done or just doing anything helps with good feelings. Sometimes even a little drive or walk to get out and away from my self and thoughts helps.
That's what I thought of from the title more then the content. Everyone is different but kind of the same ya know.
Refer this young "minister" to Romans 5:12, 14 and 17.
I remember those twi days... being made to feel less than because I didn't make the grade. I couldn't set a table right, my house not clean enough, etc., etc. My first one was born with a tornado strapped to his butt. I was told there must be something wrong because he was so wild. All my red-headed boys still have a tornado strapped to their butt. I would not have them any other way. They have never been in trouble with the law. They have grown up to be the most respectful, respectable, productive citizens. I wonder if my tormentor's children turned out to be as perfect as them?..?
And boy do I remember those submissive lectures. Grrrr, still to this day when I think about it. It never was is the husband as submissive to the Father as the Lord was.
They were the ones screwed up...not you and certainly not you.
Sweetheart, Watered Garden, dear sweetheart, I am going to talk to you like we are sister honey girlfriends and sitting on my sofa chatting with each other.........
What the heck are you still doing at this church? Obviously, some leader or teacher does not know their Bible. Born again...all are members one and the same in the Body of Christ. Yes, we have different callings and ministries and gifts. Man is not superior to woman. A dangling genitalia does not give rights to lord over or even lead or teach people. Woman is not inferior to man. The only man that is above all is Jesus Christ.
It sounds like you have been doing twi all over again. Free yourself, sister girlfriend. Secrets of the Vine is a very evil book. My opinion of course. Remember, Father God Almighty wants no less or will do no less in your life than He wanted or did For His Son, our Savior, our Brother. Jesus and I have the same Father. Think about that. The operative word here being Father. A loving Father makes, brings on or even allows sickness, disease or tragedy for His children. No way!! Absolutely, not in Him.
I would walk away from that church and not look back. Don't allow yourself to be treated like this anymore. Honey, your life is too valuable. Do you jump out of bed ready with glee in your heart to attend there? Do you feel like you want to punch a teacher in the face if you hear one more thing about how less than you are? Heck, I want to punch them for you. Study and fellowship at home. Have folks over.
You asked is it Biblical to go around feeling guilty. You feel guilty about being a woman? Who made women? You think Father made a mistake? You think He didn't know what He was doing? Did Jesus Christ die and was resurrected for men only? Not you? See, how ridiculous it can all get. Listen to your Father, honey, not those reprobates spewing pharisee doctrine in that church. Doctrines of men.....see what it has done to you, sweet Watered Garden.
Seems, I remember a while back you said you were not sure about this new preacher....there was something about him you were not sure of. I forget exactly what you posted. Now you know.....you are walking by that Spirit, sister girlfriend. You know it is not Biblical. It is not right.
I agree with almost everything you said (and I like your style! - "dangling genitalia" - LOL! )
The only thing I might reword if it were me, is when you said, "A loving Father makes, brings on or even allows sickness, disease or tragedy for His children. No way!! Absolutely, not in Him."
See, the fact is that there is sickness, disease, and tragedy in this world, and if it's not allowed by God, then how does it get in? Is the devil more powerful than God? That's where TWI's logic went - if it's not of God it must be YOUR fault for not believing! Even when they blamed things on the devil, it was still our fault for not believing to keep him out. (This ties back in with the subject of feeling guilty 'cause we weren't good enough.)
But the Bible gives us numerous examples where God allows something bad to happen because we are in this world, and not only delivers us but turns it around so that we learn something from it, or some other good comes of it. Like when Joseph was sold into Egypt. He told his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Some of life's greatest lessons come in times of adversity.
This world is full of terrible things, because of man's sin and the devil's rule. But a better day is coming, when there will be no more sickness, death, or tragedy. Until then, though, God wants us to learn to look to Him even when things suck.
And sometimes our stand in the face of adversity can be an inspiration to others. Most likely all but one of the twelve apostles were killed for their faith. Was it because they couldn't believe to get delivered, as TWI taught? Or was it that their refusal to back down even in the face of death gave greater credibility to their testimony of Jesus and his resurrection? And they didn't "lose" because they'll be resurrected when the Lord returns, and then we'll all see how the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us (Rom. 8:18).
I believe that when mankind fell, it opened up sickness and disease to come into the world. I do believe that God will use whatever means necessary to get our attention. I don't think God makes us sick, but I think He pays very close attention to how we handle sickness. Here's an example: I was secretary for seven years to a female doctor who treated cancer patients, many of them women with breast cancer. These women loved her and clung to her and trusted her throughout their treatment. So many of them came in broken and fearful and left uplifted.
Why?
Well first of all this woman doctor has a strong belief in God, and second - she had the same disease herself and survived. She had been there, done that, lived through the pain and the fear and the despair and not only survived, but come out stronger.She was the strongest woman I will ever know, because she had taken the sourest lemons of life and made lemonaide that I believe actually glorified God. I believe that God gives us the strength to survive and overcome all obstacles if we rely on Him and His goodness and grace.
Kimberly, a lot of the stuff that went on, Secrets of the Vine for example, happened in the previous church, with the previous minister and his wife running the show. The Ladies "Bible Study" run by her had all these classes on Prov 31:10-31 which makes me want to barf to this day, and she was the one who hammered all the time on submission, subjection and obedience.
I really don't think the new guy is like that, but I still am not happy with the situation. Maybe I will be later. I think I take it too seriously.
One of the problems I see with complementarianism is that I think it CAN drive a wedge between the husband and wife if they have not both been raised that way.
I will write more later. Gotta get dressed and go to church!
Today was actually very good. The subject was "confession". Now Mark, it might interest you that the original Catholic church confession was not only to confess one's sins to another individual (priest) but one then received instructions for penance, which comes from the same word as repent and was to have one do something that made one think over one's sin and repent of it. (I realize you knew that but I thought it was neat anyway). That's what confession and penance was all about.
We confess our sins to God but then we should also confess to one another. (about panicked on this one; if everyone stood and confessed in turn, it could make for a VERY long service!) But it was about being honest with God, ourselves, and one another.
I thought back to TWI and how we were taught that after one did Rom 10:9-10 sin was just broken fellowship, and "gee, sorry Dad" and on our merry way we went. So many times I think we (I will include myself here since I am a sinner) kind of used this to blow off our sinfulness. I know a couple of guys who practiced that big time - and we know who they were! Probably more than one.
I think a lot of my problem is that this guy wants to make it and keep it real, and part of my perception of what is real is still seen through TWI-colored glasses. I don't like to think of myself as guilty of any sin any more - I mean, I had all the classes more than once!
I do think that attitude was promulgated amongst the higher ups; else why have an affair, and then another affair, and then another and another and.....eventually one's conscience is seared with a hot iron so much that it forms scar tissue, which can feel nothing at all.
I talked to him at length after the service. There was a verse he had used that is really neat in the Amplified Bible which I shared and then we just talked. He did not blow me off at all but I got undivided attention and further explanation of a question or two I had.
I think now what he was talking about was guilt that leads to godly sorrow and repentance.
I was quite heartened.
WG
JeffSjo
Your description of worldly sorrow versus Godly sorrow is so perfect!
I think I've been wallowing a little too much in worldly sorrow - "Oh I'm such a worm! that kind of stuff!
I am very glad that the definition worked for you. I hope it helps.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I'd like to say that how I defined it did not require a concordance. I've seen both sides of the sorrow issue because of my mistakes.
something interesting i heard about the history of confession...
take it or leave it or look into it...
but long before jesus
jews and celts had already been breaking bread
and it was also the celts who first taught the christians about confession in those first centuries
but the way the celts taught the christians to practice it
was simply the art of being a "lay confessor" or "soul friend"
the way of a friend with a friend
and every person could had a confessor...because any person could be one for another
...which left room for people to develop these arts to great degrees
for many...this was the ground of their spiritual practice ...these arts of friendship
...even one's own "entering the closet and praying" was foundational...an expression of "the arts and practices of being friends with God alone"
so they developed profound ways of being quiet, still, inquiring, for each other, for themselves...
especially as it related to aging and dying...which is most old monks and nuns did together, anyway
...and for people
but then the church made another historic nosedive ...
and step by step, "made it wronger and wronger" for common folk to "sit and listen and ask" for each other
and eventually required people to enter a different kind of closet and confess sins to a minority of male-only priests instead...
...
as it relates to guilt and forgiveness...
zoom forward 1000 years or more ... there was another peak
and unforgiveness was recognized in christian monasteries as one the cornerstones of inner suffering
which includes the inability to forgive one's self...which is a sorrow closer to guilt
not only did the monks and nuns pay attention to such distinctions as "forgiveness pain"
as a doctor today pays attention to blood counts
but they prescribed things like different psalms to be prayed and sung for different kinds of inner suffering
...a well as options like harpists, wine, dignity, family..."aroma therapy," etc...
even left notes of results in the margins of the psalters
interesting too..was how the book of job and the psalms were the only books the jews, christians and muslims could all agree to use in their music thanatologies
...
anyway...
meaninglessness, hopelessness, loneliness are other kinds of pain we face
...and i get a sense that one tends to get louder than the others as "the day of the lord nears"
depending on our lot in life
not sure whether that makes it "biblical" or not
but to me, the bible (which i consider a deeply jewish book)
is dripping wet with such things
"confess your faults to one another" is saying A LOT
I just found this thread and really have not much to add but thanks, for the very thoughtful posts.
The world teaches us "guilt" from an early age. TWI really knew how to push the buttons.
VWP (sorry) said it was unethical [was it really "unethical" he used??] to worry about something that you couldn't do anything about. And then he gave us the worry-doubt-fear-unbelief scenario. Maybe guilt fits into unbelief? Dunno, but take him at his word (in this at least) and stop the spiral. If it's unethical to worry about something, it surely must be more unethical to feel guilty about it.
I go through periods when I don't bother to read a Bible much. Or at all. Doesn't stop me thinking. Doesn't stop me talking things over with my Dad. It's not a commandment of the Lord to read the bible every day (it was a commandment of TWI). It is a commandment of the Lord to meditate on the scriptures.
I have a Bible called "The Passion" by Holman. It seems pretty accurate, is in modern English, is very fresh and many times I think - huh, so that's what KJV was getting at! I can't stand to read KJV but it's what I think, use, if I want to check out a reference.
And WG: Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves :wub: you anyway.
I have a Bible called "The Passion" by Holman. It seems pretty accurate, is in modern English, is very fresh and many times I think - huh, so that's what KJV was getting at! I can't stand to read KJV but it's what I think, use, if I want to check out a reference.
I would advise caution with any Modern English versions. Don't assume they are giving the right understanding of "what KJV was getting at." Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Just because they read easier doesn't necessarily mean they are more accurate.
I like The Message, myself, but we have to be careful with any version really.
I finally got so I can use The Amplified Bible again, and I kinda like it. I keep myself amused during sermons by reading the expanded versions of verses.
The reason I didn't like it for a while was that people in TWI started talking like it reads.
I also noticed that some of the expanded verses were taught to me by TWI as "literally translated according to usage" and I thought this was some wonderful, original research. Phillipians 4:13 specifically is one of those.
But as far as feeling guilty goes, I think it's a habit TWI built into some folks, including me. "This isn't perfect, so it must be my fault. I'm the only one in here who messes up; everyone else is perfect".
WG, you should check out this piece of Peter Wade's HERE>
There's a point where, if you really think about what Christ is about and what the New Testament says has occurred and accept it, just let it kind of settle over your mind for awhile, it will wash over you like a cool rain on a warm day and drench you in awareness of what God's done and is doing. Let it. It doesn't matter what anyone else says about it, or you or about anything. I highly recommend these kinds of showers. :)
Mark, you may not be familiar with the Holman version. It seems pretty good, better than, for instance, NKJV, which seriously promotes a trinitarian viewpoint.
No version is perfect. I like switching around and must have 20 versions. I read the Message for its brisk breeziness and besides, it makes me laugh. When did a Bible (KJV, lol) ever do that? Often I've read in Holman and thought, this seems new, is that what it's getting at? and then I read again the familiar in KJV or look at another version, and there it is, clear as day, instead of obscured by archaic language.
You can check out your favorite bits on Crosswalk.com and run a parallel between Holman and whatever study version you prefer.
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Mark Clarke
II Cor. 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
There is a difference between Godly sorrow which leads to repentance, and worldly sorrow which is guilt that doesn't do anything for you. If God works something in your heart it's for the purpose of helping you grow. Most of those guilt trips you describe are not based on Scripture, as far as I can see.
Ask God to show you from His Word whether any of those accusations are genuine. If they aren't, ask Him to help you overcome the guilt feelings. If they are, He will also help you to change whatever needs to change. There is no profit in staying in a guilty state your whole life.
BTW, if Eve is stupid for being deceived, what does that make Adam? He wasn't deceived, he walked in with his eyes wide open (I Tim. 2:14).
And contrary to what TWI taught, sometimes sickness can be a way for God to get your attention when something is wrong in your life. But the Bible does not say that all sickness is for that purpose. We live in a fallen world and sickness is a part of life until the new world comes. (You may be interested in an article, The More Abundant Life?, on my website.)
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Bramble
I think fear motivation walks hand in hand with guilt motivation, an attempt to change behavior etc through negative means.
Does it work? I guess. Does it make for a joyful, peaceful life? Don't think so.
How healthy is it for anyone to constantly dwell on failings and mistakes and guilt and fear they don't measure up?
Seems like life is just too short for that.
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Watered Garden
Thanks so much for your replies. Mark, I will check out your website sometime this weekend.
So much of what I see is what I would call performance-based Christianity rather than faith-based Christianity. I think performance-based drives me to guilt. Yeah, I probably do need to keep the house cleaner, but sometimes I just have something to do like play with the dog or read a good book. Which brings me to.....
I really don't like to read the Bible any more!!!!! I can never decide whether what I'm reading is right, or whether someone else's interpretation of it is right, or whether TWI..... and then I feel guilty because I don't read the Bible.
I think sometimes what I'm looking for is someone to just say, "Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves you anyway."
I know that Godly sorrow leads to repentance, rethinking your actions, evaluating your sin and asking God's forgiveness and then working toward changes. But what I'm talking about is the guilt I feel about stuff I didn't even have control over, and especially not measuring up to the standards of TWI, even though we left in 1996. Those standards of perfection are still there, rattling around in my head and making me wonder if I'll ever get it right.
WG
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JeffSjo
Hi Watered Garden,
I'm really sorry about the things that you suffered through and still affect you. I usually refer to these things as bruises and/or wounds figuratively speaking.
For me things in my marraige things were tough. I was not ready to be a husband in almost any manner at all. The fact that I didn't commit the abuses that I grew up around wasn't enough to keep me from having huge faults and being a big jerk sometimes. Even in the best of circumstances with a competant minister things would not have been easy for us.
Enter my splinter group and their theology.....
While fighting for things to be better in my marriage I had to contend with my splinter group leader along with his toadies and goons.
Their faults were abundant in the false prophecy category.
Glorification of the leader was the norm. They even called him by the phrase "the Word in the Flesh."
Obedience by abuse went hand in hand with flattery. Whichever worked was the method used to bring about obedience.
All women belong to the king was the norm. Except they usually used phrases as "shepherd" and "Sheep" to communicate the same idea.
Since I was in disagreement with much of the doctrine and I had challenges in my marriage they were capable of turning my wife against me and she was a willing participant in the multitude of mind games they threw at me over the course of a few years.
___________
I'm sharing these things so that you may see where I'm coming from when I say this.....
You and your family were battered by TWI abuse. A lot of what TWI screws up for people is what should be simple; the concepts behind right, wrong, and Godly sorrow.
After being battered for a while with heartless abuse it takes some time for all of us to see these things straight I think.
Much of you what you were battered with in terms of you being wrong was B.S. And now you sound wounded to me. I hope you continue to sort it out. I've read enough of your posts to feel confident that you will sort it out better than you seem to think you will right now....I'm just saying.
PEACE,
JEFF
(edited for clarity)
(added in editing)
If you feel guilty about being a woman, that is not right.
If someone feels guilty about commiting a crime, that is probably right.
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JeffSjo
As far as Godly sorrow verses worldly sorrow I think that the scriptural definition is simple in concept. But like most simple things, actually carrying them out can be difficult. Espescially if we are already damaged goods so to speak.
If I'm feeling guilty about something that I've done wrong I can go one of two diections IMO.
If I go the route of feeling sorry for myself and then feel like giving up that would tend to be worldly sorrow. If I'm beAting myself up so badly that I start thinking about suicide and/or death being better than having to deal with my guilt then IT IS WORLDLY SORROW.
If I'm crushed by my guilt but manage to get back up on my feet, do better, and learn my lesson and fight to change while thanking God for his mercy, well, THAT IS GODLY SORROW.
one more itty little bitty thing.....
If I make for myself a habit of sexual, and ministerial abuse over the course of years and simultaneously lead people into thinking that I'm a man-of-god, well,MY NAME MIGHT BE WIERWILLE. (I'm thinking seared conscience)
I THINK FRIENDS HELP WITH THESE THINGS!!!!!
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Mark Clarke
You're right about "performance-based Christianity." Too much emphasis is placed on what we do and think. Yeah, we do have to try to do and think the right things, but God helps us with that through His Spirit and His Word - much more than we were taught in TWI. And what "the right things" are is to be gotten from God's Word, not from what people say. That's why it's important to read the Bible for ourselves and not be deceived by any group's opinions.
That brings me to your comment that you don't like to read the Bible. I completely understand. I went through that myself. Have you tried reading a different version? I found that reading the old KJV reminded me a lot of The Way, plus because it was the same old words I'd heard over and over again, it tended to be like recitation in my mind. But when I read it in other versions, with slightly different wording, it seems fresher and also less like TWI. I like the NASV (New American Standard Version) these days, and sometimes NIV (New International Version) or The Message. In any version, though, there is the question you mention of whether that version or translation is right. That's where comparison comes in. But I think you'll find that the more you read, the more you see the "Big Picture" and the more you see how things fit into that picture. We missed that a lot in TWI because we were reading VPW's doctrines into it, instead of letting the Bible speak for itself.
Okay, I'll say it. "Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves you anyway." I have had a hard time accepting that at times too. But He's still there for me. His patience is supernatural!
In addition to "working toward changes" God also works in us to change us from within. His Word and His Spirit can have that function. In fact I'm convinced that's the primary function of the Holy Spirit, more than "operating all nine all the time" as we used to say. So often we spin our wheels trying to change ourselves instead of relying on God's power. That doesn't mean we do nothing, but it does mean we have to rely on His ability and not ours.
And by the way, we'll never "get it right" completely in this life. And God knows that but called us to eternal life in His Kingdom anyway. As we do our best God recognizes our heart. Ironically, even VPW used to say that looking at the world or ourselves causes us to fail, but turning your eyes on Jesus is the secret to a holy life. Sadly, too many people in TWI used to focus on everything but Jesus even though they quoted that.
As for things you have no control over, of course God doesn't blame you, He's a righteous judge. I'm sure you know that, even though you still have guilt feelings. It was just pounded into our heads. I think we need to pour our hearts out to God and let Him fix them. I'm still working on that, but I'm getting better.
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leafytwiglet
God really does love us right where we are at.
He does not care that your dishes are sitting in the sink or the bathroom hasn't been cleaned
any more than you do when you go over and see your child at their house.
HE does care that you feel loved. HE cares that you know that he forgave you of your sins already. HE cares that you are still and know that he is God. Remember the story of Mary sitting at the feet of Christ to hear his words. That made him happy. HE felt it was more important than making the house perfect.
The dishes aren't going to rise up and revolt they will be there when you are ready to wash them but you can not get a return on the time you have with your children or the time that we all need to take a break from the continual grind of the day to day. A spotless house has absolutely nothing to do with a spotless mind.
Now I also want to say thanks Mark for those words of wisdom regarding changing the style of bible you read.
I think for me that just may be what I need to do.
Hugs WG from one woman to another
and let me leave you with one more thought
You are precious in GODS sight.
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cman
Exploring our feelings and why we feel a certain way is quite the task.
I can feel 'guilty' or like I've done something wrong even when I haven't. Finding the reasons is and has been interesting. Like I could feel something that doesn't seem to be about me at all, but about something that will show it's self eventually.
Just life I reckon. I quit worrying about how I feel and more about finding out why I feel a certain way, sometimes. Sometimes I see why and sometimes I don't.
Doing things that need done or just doing anything helps with good feelings. Sometimes even a little drive or walk to get out and away from my self and thoughts helps.
That's what I thought of from the title more then the content. Everyone is different but kind of the same ya know.
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kimberly
Refer this young "minister" to Romans 5:12, 14 and 17.
I remember those twi days... being made to feel less than because I didn't make the grade. I couldn't set a table right, my house not clean enough, etc., etc. My first one was born with a tornado strapped to his butt. I was told there must be something wrong because he was so wild. All my red-headed boys still have a tornado strapped to their butt. I would not have them any other way. They have never been in trouble with the law. They have grown up to be the most respectful, respectable, productive citizens. I wonder if my tormentor's children turned out to be as perfect as them?..?
And boy do I remember those submissive lectures. Grrrr, still to this day when I think about it. It never was is the husband as submissive to the Father as the Lord was.
They were the ones screwed up...not you and certainly not you.
Sweetheart, Watered Garden, dear sweetheart, I am going to talk to you like we are sister honey girlfriends and sitting on my sofa chatting with each other.........
What the heck are you still doing at this church? Obviously, some leader or teacher does not know their Bible. Born again...all are members one and the same in the Body of Christ. Yes, we have different callings and ministries and gifts. Man is not superior to woman. A dangling genitalia does not give rights to lord over or even lead or teach people. Woman is not inferior to man. The only man that is above all is Jesus Christ.
It sounds like you have been doing twi all over again. Free yourself, sister girlfriend. Secrets of the Vine is a very evil book. My opinion of course. Remember, Father God Almighty wants no less or will do no less in your life than He wanted or did For His Son, our Savior, our Brother. Jesus and I have the same Father. Think about that. The operative word here being Father. A loving Father makes, brings on or even allows sickness, disease or tragedy for His children. No way!! Absolutely, not in Him.
I would walk away from that church and not look back. Don't allow yourself to be treated like this anymore. Honey, your life is too valuable. Do you jump out of bed ready with glee in your heart to attend there? Do you feel like you want to punch a teacher in the face if you hear one more thing about how less than you are? Heck, I want to punch them for you. Study and fellowship at home. Have folks over.
You asked is it Biblical to go around feeling guilty. You feel guilty about being a woman? Who made women? You think Father made a mistake? You think He didn't know what He was doing? Did Jesus Christ die and was resurrected for men only? Not you? See, how ridiculous it can all get. Listen to your Father, honey, not those reprobates spewing pharisee doctrine in that church. Doctrines of men.....see what it has done to you, sweet Watered Garden.
Seems, I remember a while back you said you were not sure about this new preacher....there was something about him you were not sure of. I forget exactly what you posted. Now you know.....you are walking by that Spirit, sister girlfriend. You know it is not Biblical. It is not right.
You have been much in my thoughts.
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Mark Clarke
Kimberly,
I agree with almost everything you said (and I like your style! - "dangling genitalia" - LOL!
)
The only thing I might reword if it were me, is when you said, "A loving Father makes, brings on or even allows sickness, disease or tragedy for His children. No way!! Absolutely, not in Him."
See, the fact is that there is sickness, disease, and tragedy in this world, and if it's not allowed by God, then how does it get in? Is the devil more powerful than God? That's where TWI's logic went - if it's not of God it must be YOUR fault for not believing! Even when they blamed things on the devil, it was still our fault for not believing to keep him out. (This ties back in with the subject of feeling guilty 'cause we weren't good enough.)
But the Bible gives us numerous examples where God allows something bad to happen because we are in this world, and not only delivers us but turns it around so that we learn something from it, or some other good comes of it. Like when Joseph was sold into Egypt. He told his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Some of life's greatest lessons come in times of adversity.
This world is full of terrible things, because of man's sin and the devil's rule. But a better day is coming, when there will be no more sickness, death, or tragedy. Until then, though, God wants us to learn to look to Him even when things suck.
And sometimes our stand in the face of adversity can be an inspiration to others. Most likely all but one of the twelve apostles were killed for their faith. Was it because they couldn't believe to get delivered, as TWI taught? Or was it that their refusal to back down even in the face of death gave greater credibility to their testimony of Jesus and his resurrection? And they didn't "lose" because they'll be resurrected when the Lord returns, and then we'll all see how the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us (Rom. 8:18).
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Watered Garden
I believe that when mankind fell, it opened up sickness and disease to come into the world. I do believe that God will use whatever means necessary to get our attention. I don't think God makes us sick, but I think He pays very close attention to how we handle sickness. Here's an example: I was secretary for seven years to a female doctor who treated cancer patients, many of them women with breast cancer. These women loved her and clung to her and trusted her throughout their treatment. So many of them came in broken and fearful and left uplifted.
Why?
Well first of all this woman doctor has a strong belief in God, and second - she had the same disease herself and survived. She had been there, done that, lived through the pain and the fear and the despair and not only survived, but come out stronger.She was the strongest woman I will ever know, because she had taken the sourest lemons of life and made lemonaide that I believe actually glorified God. I believe that God gives us the strength to survive and overcome all obstacles if we rely on Him and His goodness and grace.
Kimberly, a lot of the stuff that went on, Secrets of the Vine for example, happened in the previous church, with the previous minister and his wife running the show. The Ladies "Bible Study" run by her had all these classes on Prov 31:10-31 which makes me want to barf to this day, and she was the one who hammered all the time on submission, subjection and obedience.
I really don't think the new guy is like that, but I still am not happy with the situation. Maybe I will be later. I think I take it too seriously.
One of the problems I see with complementarianism is that I think it CAN drive a wedge between the husband and wife if they have not both been raised that way.
I will write more later. Gotta get dressed and go to church!
WG
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Watered Garden
Today was actually very good. The subject was "confession". Now Mark, it might interest you that the original Catholic church confession was not only to confess one's sins to another individual (priest) but one then received instructions for penance, which comes from the same word as repent and was to have one do something that made one think over one's sin and repent of it. (I realize you knew that but I thought it was neat anyway). That's what confession and penance was all about.
We confess our sins to God but then we should also confess to one another. (about panicked on this one; if everyone stood and confessed in turn, it could make for a VERY long service!) But it was about being honest with God, ourselves, and one another.
I thought back to TWI and how we were taught that after one did Rom 10:9-10 sin was just broken fellowship, and "gee, sorry Dad" and on our merry way we went. So many times I think we (I will include myself here since I am a sinner) kind of used this to blow off our sinfulness. I know a couple of guys who practiced that big time -
and we know who they were! Probably more than one.
I think a lot of my problem is that this guy wants to make it and keep it real, and part of my perception of what is real is still seen through TWI-colored glasses. I don't like to think of myself as guilty of any sin any more - I mean, I had all the classes more than once!
I do think that attitude was promulgated amongst the higher ups; else why have an affair, and then another affair, and then another and another and.....eventually one's conscience is seared with a hot iron so much that it forms scar tissue, which can feel nothing at all.
I talked to him at length after the service. There was a verse he had used that is really neat in the Amplified Bible which I shared and then we just talked. He did not blow me off at all but I got undivided attention and further explanation of a question or two I had.
I think now what he was talking about was guilt that leads to godly sorrow and repentance.
I was quite heartened.
WG
JeffSjo
Your description of worldly sorrow versus Godly sorrow is so perfect!
I think I've been wallowing a little too much in worldly sorrow - "Oh I'm such a worm! that kind of stuff!
Golly I think I just confessed something!
Thanks guys!
WG
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JeffSjo
Dear Watered Garden,
I am very glad that the definition worked for you. I hope it helps.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I'd like to say that how I defined it did not require a concordance. I've seen both sides of the sorrow issue because of my mistakes.
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sirguessalot
something interesting i heard about the history of confession...
take it or leave it or look into it...
but long before jesus
jews and celts had already been breaking bread
and it was also the celts who first taught the christians about confession in those first centuries
but the way the celts taught the christians to practice it
was simply the art of being a "lay confessor" or "soul friend"
the way of a friend with a friend
and every person could had a confessor...because any person could be one for another
...which left room for people to develop these arts to great degrees
for many...this was the ground of their spiritual practice ...these arts of friendship
...even one's own "entering the closet and praying" was foundational...an expression of "the arts and practices of being friends with God alone"
so they developed profound ways of being quiet, still, inquiring, for each other, for themselves...
especially as it related to aging and dying...which is most old monks and nuns did together, anyway
...and for people
but then the church made another historic nosedive ...
and step by step, "made it wronger and wronger" for common folk to "sit and listen and ask" for each other
and eventually required people to enter a different kind of closet and confess sins to a minority of male-only priests instead...
...
as it relates to guilt and forgiveness...
zoom forward 1000 years or more ... there was another peak
and unforgiveness was recognized in christian monasteries as one the cornerstones of inner suffering
which includes the inability to forgive one's self...which is a sorrow closer to guilt
not only did the monks and nuns pay attention to such distinctions as "forgiveness pain"
as a doctor today pays attention to blood counts
but they prescribed things like different psalms to be prayed and sung for different kinds of inner suffering
...a well as options like harpists, wine, dignity, family..."aroma therapy," etc...
even left notes of results in the margins of the psalters
interesting too..was how the book of job and the psalms were the only books the jews, christians and muslims could all agree to use in their music thanatologies
...
anyway...
meaninglessness, hopelessness, loneliness are other kinds of pain we face
...and i get a sense that one tends to get louder than the others as "the day of the lord nears"
depending on our lot in life
not sure whether that makes it "biblical" or not
but to me, the bible (which i consider a deeply jewish book)
is dripping wet with such things
"confess your faults to one another" is saying A LOT
and has a lot of texture and traction
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Twinky
I just found this thread and really have not much to add but thanks, for the very thoughtful posts.
The world teaches us "guilt" from an early age. TWI really knew how to push the buttons.
VWP (sorry) said it was unethical [was it really "unethical" he used??] to worry about something that you couldn't do anything about. And then he gave us the worry-doubt-fear-unbelief scenario. Maybe guilt fits into unbelief? Dunno, but take him at his word (in this at least) and stop the spiral. If it's unethical to worry about something, it surely must be more unethical to feel guilty about it.
I go through periods when I don't bother to read a Bible much. Or at all. Doesn't stop me thinking. Doesn't stop me talking things over with my Dad. It's not a commandment of the Lord to read the bible every day (it was a commandment of TWI). It is a commandment of the Lord to meditate on the scriptures.
I have a Bible called "The Passion" by Holman. It seems pretty accurate, is in modern English, is very fresh and many times I think - huh, so that's what KJV was getting at! I can't stand to read KJV but it's what I think, use, if I want to check out a reference.
And WG: Hey, God knows you aren't perfect and He loves :wub: you anyway.
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Mark Clarke
I would advise caution with any Modern English versions. Don't assume they are giving the right understanding of "what KJV was getting at." Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Just because they read easier doesn't necessarily mean they are more accurate.
I like The Message, myself, but we have to be careful with any version really.
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Watered Garden
I finally got so I can use The Amplified Bible again, and I kinda like it. I keep myself amused during sermons by reading the expanded versions of verses.
The reason I didn't like it for a while was that people in TWI started talking like it reads.
I also noticed that some of the expanded verses were taught to me by TWI as "literally translated according to usage" and I thought this was some wonderful, original research. Phillipians 4:13 specifically is one of those.
But as far as feeling guilty goes, I think it's a habit TWI built into some folks, including me. "This isn't perfect, so it must be my fault. I'm the only one in here who messes up; everyone else is perfect".
WG
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socks
WG, you should check out this piece of Peter Wade's HERE>
There's a point where, if you really think about what Christ is about and what the New Testament says has occurred and accept it, just let it kind of settle over your mind for awhile, it will wash over you like a cool rain on a warm day and drench you in awareness of what God's done and is doing. Let it. It doesn't matter what anyone else says about it, or you or about anything. I highly recommend these kinds of showers. :)
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Twinky
Mark, you may not be familiar with the Holman version. It seems pretty good, better than, for instance, NKJV, which seriously promotes a trinitarian viewpoint.
No version is perfect. I like switching around and must have 20 versions. I read the Message for its brisk breeziness and besides, it makes me laugh. When did a Bible (KJV, lol) ever do that? Often I've read in Holman and thought, this seems new, is that what it's getting at? and then I read again the familiar in KJV or look at another version, and there it is, clear as day, instead of obscured by archaic language.
You can check out your favorite bits on Crosswalk.com and run a parallel between Holman and whatever study version you prefer.
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