VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?
VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?
52 members have voted
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1. VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?
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God miracled a snowstorm for VPW1
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God miracled a snowstorm in VPW's head1
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VPW hallucinated a snowstorm3
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VPW saw a freak hailstorm and interpreted it as a miracle2
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VPW made the whole thing up37
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None of the above8
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potato
4 or 5 what? shots of whiskey, hits off the pipe, what?
Bolshevik
wow, I would have guessed more.
potato
it's reruns of seaspray, circa 2003.
Twinky
Sorry, Mike, I don't feel any respect FROM you.
I simply don't have any respect for hypocrisy. There is good precedent for this. I have a recollection that Jesus confronted a few people about it...was it ... false leaders??
I believe the leaders of the church that we are in, are urged to live blameless lives, which surely doesn't mean they never do wrong, but they get their act together pretty quickly and amend their behavior. Isn't there a letter about that somewhere? To Tim...Timmy...(thinking...) Timothy!! And I remember reading about some other guy who'd been a hypocrite who changed his mind and said, Be followers of me. And he laid down specific standards of behavior. Uh... Paul?
I believe YOU believe the things you say, and I respect that. I simply don't respect the author of the books you so venerate. If they work for you, go with it. But please - don't forget Jesus. Don't disregard what he teaches. Make yourself rich in love and compassion. Let those be your actions. Let him be your model.
PS Not recorded anywhere that Jesus saw a snowstorm. He did see a dove and he did have an amazing time being "transfigured". He didn't ask for these and warned against seeking after signs (like snowstorms).
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potato
yeah, read it already and it's irrelevant to my point. it doesn't make vpw special, it just means he had a lot of material being handed to him on probably a daily basis, and he could pick and choose what he liked the most.
I didn't miss anything in PFAL and spent many years working the material, to the point that exploration into several of vpw's inconsistencies earned me a bad reputation. the fact that I've forgotten a good portion of it at this point is due to the fact that I've ceased to be concerned about it, I no longer study it, and I've actively replaced it in my brain with other things that are far more interesting.
bottom line is, the only way PFAL stands as a system of belief is if you refuse to consider that vpw could have been wrong, a liar, mistaken, a narcissist, or any of the other things his life seem to indicate, because your ever-expanding base of special revelation given exclusively to this one man (usually by reading and copying other people's material) only works if you close your eyes to the possibility that the things he spoke or wrote could be anything other than revelation. it's a closed system.
I choose never to be that gullible again.
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Twinky
Ditto.
There's so much more knowledge and understanding and application out there.
Pr 11:14 -
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Pr 15:22 -
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
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waysider
At the risk of sounding rude, let me clearly state that your response is nothing short of a deliberate effort to avoid the issue.
If you think it would be a derailment or require a lengthy response, though I can't image how a response to one simple paragraph could be too lengthy, the proper thing to do is start another thread to specifically deal with that subject. One would think after all these years of posting, that would be fairly obvious to you.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi greasespotters!
typically, this thread has followed a long and winding path in the discussions engendered by Jim's original snowstorm question, and the poll........which, btw, has so far amassed a grand total of 40 votes despite the number of views of this thread now beyond 7000!
for me, the core of the discussion on this thread revolves around a question perhaps more Shakespearian in form than in importance.................that is..............concerning the teachings and "written works" of der victoid, are they GODBREATHED OR NOT GODBREATHED???.......that is the question which has driven the discussions on this thread, especially those directed at or in response to posts by our fellow poster Mike........and, imho, mike has been quite direct in his responses, providing a good deal of information regarding the long, arduous, detailed process he undertook in order to arrive at the answer to that question which ultimately soothed his desire for and completed his personal quest for a "single, or sole, only rule for faith and practice" which he can choose to live his life by.
many greasespotters have had lengthy discussions with Mike along these same lines, myself included. in his post #324 on page 17 of this thread, Mike replied to an earlier post of mine on page 16 of this thread. in my post, i described in detail, my firsthand participation and involvement in numerous "research team meetings" which produced several of vic's so-called "written works"........as i noted in that post, all such meetings were recorded, and Mike even alludes to having heard such tapes at some point in time. Mike responded to this post by inserting his editorial comments in red at various points in my original post...........and, i would like to point out here, that not only did Mike not refute or deny any point i made about the actual "biblical research" PROCESS vic employed, he actually corrobborated the process i described!...........thus, the only difference in our perception of the process is, Mike concludes and believes wholeheartedly, that god almighty was "teaching" vic directly by revelation at various points during the actual process itself, as well as during the numerous "proofreading and editing" sessions he reports followed the meetings. i do not arrive at that same conclusion at all, as i have posted many times in the various threads around here at the spot.
Mike has honestly admitted that his ultimate and final conclusion regarding his conviction that vic's "written works" are indeed, god-breathed, is not based upon "logic", and, that for him, it is not up for discussion or debate. he repeated this stance on this thread in post #329. this is a religious or spiritual belief Mike has willfully and purposely chosen, after much time, study, inquiry, investigation, and personal labor. i respect Mike's right to make that choice, and Mike appreciates the fact that our host, Pawtucket, allows him the bandwith to faithfully and vociferously witness to us , the lost sheep of the flock of wierwille. however, i remain totally convinced myself, that Mike's beliefs regarding these matters are not those i can ascribe to myself.........my conclusions, my choices, based on my owm journey of faith.
thinking that that i could, or should, "prove" to Mike how "wrong" i think his conclusions are produces what? Mike has no need or desire that i prove anything to him about his beliefs!.........they're his beliefs, and i have no just expectation that he should recant from them or reject vic's "revelations". it would be like thinking i could arrange a meeting between mahmoud achmadinajab and shimon peres and they would each convert each other to their respective religious views and the "lion will lie down with the lamb"..........just like these threads, that meeting would likely wind up in a heated debate as to who's the lion and who's the lamb?..........or, prove to me you're the lamb!.........or, did he say lie down or lay down?............how 'bout if i wanna stand next to?...........how bout if i hate cats?..........or sheep?............why does any of this apply to me???..........and, most poignantly, WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?................i don't care what Mike believes!.........i don't care whather god breathed through a narcissistic, sociopathic, mean-spirited alcoholic, serial sexual predator, or not.............neither affects my own beliefs or actions today!
the actual process of vic's revelatory "writing" prowess has been recounted and corrobborated succinctly on this thread. now, fellow greasespotters and lurkers can examine the facts and "mechanics" of that "spiritual" process which god shared in such a spayshull way with der doktor for themselves.............and thereby arrive at their own conclusions or further questions............i thought leafytwiglet's response alone was enough to make this entire thread worthwhile, but that's just my opinion.
as far as having only one rule for faith and practice by which to live a positive, helpful, peaceable life among and along with the other six-and-a-half billion humans we share this planet with...............i personally believe it is foolish to think that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being would limit itself to one, finite, book, or set of writings, with which to deal with such a complex, needy, and demanding creation!............for me, as a fiercely independent and forever "unchurched" christian, i have one such "rule" for my spiritual life............THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THINE HEART, SOUL, MIND, AND STRENGTH, AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF!........UPON THESE TWO HANG ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS.
there are many other "rules" for faith and practice which govern my professional life, clinical skills necessary to do my job at work, rules for interacting with others, society, politics, ad infinitum. they are no less necessary or important than the rule i try to follow in my spritual life...........and, there are many great contributors to my spiritual life besides some dead drunken pervert buried underneath some obnoxious, overdone fountain polluting the otherwise peaceful, natural beauty of rural america!...........to each his own.........unfortunately, there are those who are convinced i'm doomed to hell and everlasting "lack of rewards" for thinking this way..........hopefully their malcontent, intolerance, irrational fear or hatred will come to naught, and the reality of their god and religion will ascend to its true nature..................hopefully........................peace.
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RumRunner
Just thinking "out loud." Seems that DWBH's last post (#481) would provide a graceful end to this thread.
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Twinky
Agreed. Very graceful.
Mods, lock this thread!
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Mike
I'd say, DWBH, that it's the other way around, you corroborated what I had posted MANY times, and that VPW had openly admitted many times, that it was NOT by divine dictation that he received the revelation for PFAL, but by a sharing process back and forth.
Here's one such early post of mine on this:
I’ve toyed with the idea that the PFAL revelations were first discussed and hashed about, much like Dr says in the Thessalonians Univ. of Life tapes that Paul and Timothy and Silas hashed out Paul’s revelations before they were put into written form. This is NOT the dictation model of written revelation. I’ve discussed this here before, how in Psalms it says (with suitable corrections) that every Word of God is pure, words-of-earth tried in an oven seven times. That sounds like hashing it out, discussing it, editing and revising it until it’s good for consumption. Maybe those booklets were part of that process. The fact that they were discontinued in 1971 should tell us something.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike, May 03, 2004 14:57
******
I can live with that, but I know no one is going to let this thread end with my name stamped on the end and showing up in the forums that way. So whoever wants to have that "last post by" honor I wont try a come back.
Thanks DWBH for a gracious ending.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi again greasespotters!
Mike........it was not my intent to "end" this thread............perhaps rumrunner and twinky were just typing with tongue in cheek?.........either way, you're more than welcome if indeed, this thread comes to a graceful conclusion!..........i appreciate all the information, personal and otherwise, which you have shared with us regarding your currently held, stedfast beliefs in vic's "revelations". like i said, i think i understand how much time, effort, and soul-energy you've put into your quest and in explaining some of it to us. i'm glad we can agree to disagree, and yet continue to discuss and express our views in a friendly, non-hostile exchange of posts. i am glad your beliefs bring you joy, peace and strength............and i sincerely bid you peace..............btw, please reply, so if the thread is locked, your name will be at its end........i really don't think any of your fellow greasespotters nor any of the mods really would mind that!
edited to remove double post.
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Mike
Well hello again DWBH,
Your manners and style have always appreciated by me (and many others) going back to 1971.
I'm beat and I suspect the others are tired too.
If anyone wants more info on this there's always the PM system.
I had no intention of getting into another round of the Mike Wars, it just sort of happened.
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ModRocker
Hi Everyone:
I don't see any other mods around, so I'll pop in here. I don't see a reason to lock the thread.
Maybe, as DWBH says, Twinky's suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but I'm responding in case she wasn't kidding.
There's nothing wrong with a debate, even if one of the people engaging in it holds an unpopular view. I'm sure everyone will tire of it eventually and it will slip down into the lower regions of thread-dom where most threads go.
ModRocker
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Twinky
ModRocker, it's deviated just a little from the snowstorm...!
Mike, I respect your views, but I've been there and out through the other side. We will not agree but I appreciate your views are strongly held (as are mine). There is no point in my continuing on this thread, said all I have to say, no-one's changing their mind, so it's over and out.
I wish you peace in your heart:
Numbers 6:24-26 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
26 The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
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RumRunner
No DWBH it was not tongue in cheek on my part. After 25 pages of back and forth it seemed like your post was genuinely a good graceful end to the conflict - Mike has his views which you showed respect for - Others have different views - which you showed respect for. I've no doubt there will be other threads with plenty of "lively conflict" which I certainly would rather promote than see suppressed as "good" conflict generates actual thinking as opposed to a small army of robotic name tag wearers.
My apologies if I seemed to send the wrong message
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Paw and mods, seriously it is time to end and close off this thread. If Mike, What the Hey, White Doce and Oldiesman want to discuss PFAL then direct them to the doctrine forum. We heard and got replies about snowstorms with polling. sorry only 40 people responded to the poll.
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Mod Kirk
Anyone who wants the thread closed is free to stop posting on it
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Bolshevik
I agree with Mod Cow. We need to stop posting about whether or not to post.
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seaspray
Jim, this is interesting. Try this for size.
God Almighty, in His omniscience, simply revealed the same information & instruction (the Mystery) to Dr. Wierwile that He had revealed to the apostle Paul (or vice versa). Both had scripture to work with (fiddling?) and both had the necessary help from the heavenly Father.
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waysider
Sorry, seaspray
Equating a drunken, plagiarizing, habitual lying sexual predator with the Apostle Paul seems a bit ludicrous to me.
You might want to spend some time reviewing some of the information on the home page.
Things like "Losing The Way" and "Through The Fog Years" in addition to "Actual Errors in PFAL" and VPW's death certificate which reveals that he died from cancer. (In the Advanced Class, he claimed cancer was caused by devil spirits.)
Not trying to bust your chops, really.
Welcome to GSC.
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seaspray
Thanks waysider for the GSC welcome.
No need to worry about bustin' my chops. If it gets too rough, I'll just say 'uncle'.
Certainly I am aware of the accusations that have been made against Dr. Wierwille. What I don't understand is how, in a biblical sense, this disqualifies him from simply writing down what God revealed to him. Even if (and it's very unlikely) all the accusations are fact. Truthfully, all this jibber-jabber on GSC about Dr. Wierwille's alledged misdeeds is very reminiscent of the fake trials guys like Stephen, Paul and even the Lord himself endured before they were executed.
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waysider
Would you be more likely to believe it if you heard first hand testimony from his victims?
There is plenty of that here.
I highly recommend the GSC radio episodes listed on the home page.
You might also want to look at "Actual Errors In PFAL".
Personally, I don't believe God ever revealed ANYTHING to him., especially in light of what we now know about how his hallmark works were plagiarized, in many cases, word for word. He didn't even bother to change the names of the fictitious characters (Maggie Muggins, Snowball Pete, etc.) that he uses in PFAL, a class that he stole from BG Leonard, and others. His "revelations" regarding conspiracy theories in the mid 70s came from propaganda he accessed directly from white supremacy groups and Liberty Lobby. The man was a fraud. It's a startling realization to be faced with after putting so much value in what he supposedly represented. I, for one, definitely would not compare his life to Stephen, Paul or Jesus Christ.
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Bolshevik
Wierwille's character aside, you seem to imply that you believe Wierwille's writings hold water. Is that so? If so why?
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sirguessalot
stephen and jesus and paul...
...and the other millions of millions of people
who have been oppressed and killed in religious history
(some of whom are being oppressed and killed now, btw)
are being oppressed and killed
not just for their private exclusive cultural belief system
but for their actions and behaviors in this world
for speaking truth to power
for resisting oppression and slavery
for empowering self and others to restore a just balance to systems
...religious, political, cultural, sexual, economic and otherwise, etc...
neither vpw (nor us) got tortured and killed for beliefs or actions, doctrine or practice
because they were not different enough from a big bad beast to alarm a such a system to act
genuinely stand up and speak to truth and suffering and such
and new opponents will likely come looking and worse
depending on depth and degree of nerve being touched
but vpw's life was like a walk through the park ...luxurious
a rock star moment compared to those who actually suffer and die
doctrine and practice seemed motivated largely by a culture of pleasure, materialism, gain,
preaching principles of health and wealth while wasting money, screwing around, drinking and smoking
with a high degree of avoidance and inexperience with real pain, suffering, darkness, woundedness, sacrifice, service, devotion...
his life of behaviour/actions/disciplines shows that had not come close
to witnessing any significant relevant game-changing perspective
that one might compare to saints or prophets
as if he was too wild and immature and undisciplined to become wise
and perhaps a wisdom "he knew that he never knew" hit him fast hard at the end of his life
as if sinners can chase only heavens
while saints can march through the hells
..
thanks for the inspiration, seaspray
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Broken Arrow
I
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille disqualified himself from true Christian ministry by his own lifestyle and behavior...I think that the standards set in the books of Timothy for Christian ministers are quite clear...that is why Wierwille never wrote down "what God revealed to him"...he wrote down (word for word) what other men had written in their books...this is called plagiarism.
You call the testamonies of Wierwille's victims "jibber jabber"?...Hmmm, I find the criticism of Wierwille to be reminiscent of the criticism directed towards Jim Jones, David Koresh and Simon the sorceror.
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